Once Saved Always Saved?

[justjess]

Following a god of your own making.

Whatever you say Lisa. Whatever helps you sleep better at night. No skin off my back.

 

[Allegra]

Then you missed all the posts were I explicitly stated I believe in god and I believe Jesus to have been sent by god/divinely inspired. What a convenience for you.

Disagreeing on scriptural interpretations doesn’t work as a disclaimer for any other Christian, if it did then not a single one on this board would actually be Christian since you guys clearly can’t agree on anything other then being nasty and mean to people’s whose interpretation varies more significantly then yours.

welp. if you read again my post properly, i didnt say you're not a christian, i said, you don't believe in God.

*shrugs* well that's too bad but Todd and Lisa already clarified it to me. so yeah i get an idea where u stand at.

 

[Lisa]

I guess Origen - one of the founding fathers of the church - wasn’t a Christian either.

Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the church..the foundation being the apostles and the prophets.

 

[justjess]

Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the church..the foundation being the apostles and the prophets.

So tell me Origen wasn’t a Christian. Tell me all the people listed in that article and others who identified as universalists aren’t Christians. It’s a doctrinal disagreement. It doesn’t take away anything from the root of the meaning.

 

[justjess]

Origen is a Church Father and is widely regarded as one of the most important Christian theologians of all time. His teachings were especially influential in the east, with Athanasius of Alexandria and the three Cappadocian Fathers being among his most devoted followers.

 

[Lisa]

So tell me Origen wasn’t a Christian.

I’ve already told you what the Bible says about it. The Bible you read but don’t really understand. I can tell you why you don’t understand it...it’s because you aren’t really a Christian saved by the blood of Jesus. And from what you tell me..that doesn’t bother you.

 

[justjess]

I’ve already told you what the Bible says about it. The Bible you read but don’t really understand. I can tell you why you don’t understand it...it’s because you aren’t really a Christian saved by the blood of Jesus. And from what you tell me..that doesn’t bother you.

Origen is widely accepted as a Christian and not just a Christian but a “church father”

so your telling me he is not?

You can believe whatever you want about me Lisa. I’m good with it. I know your wrong.

 

[Lisa]

Origen is widely accepted as a Christian and not just a Christian but a “church father”

so your telling me he is not?

You can believe whatever you want about me Lisa. I’m good with it. I know your wrong.

Unfortunately, you are very deceived, Jess

 

[justjess]

I believe the same about you as well Lisa. Extremely deceived in more ways then this.

 

[justjess]

http://uucch.org/famous-uus

^ you shall know them by their fruits.

Time and time again you see UU’s doing amazing things - fighting for the rights of the less fortunate - minorities, women, children, labor rights - pushing forward in education, founding universities, free schools, inventors and fighters for freedoms gainst oppression of all forms, brilliant authors whose works are classics today because their messages are eternal.. etc etc etc

The Unitarian Church today is still on the front lines out their helping their communities, fighting the good fight. Even and especially when it’s unpopular.

Yet you’ll deny them because they disagree on doctrine??

 

[Lisa]

http://uucch.org/famous-uus

^ you shall know them by their fruits.

Time and time again you see UU’s doing amazing things - fighting for the rights of the less fortunate - minorities, women, children, labor rights - pushing forward in education, founding universities, free schools, inventors and fighters for freedoms gainst oppression of all forms, brilliant authors whose works are classics today because their messages are eternal.. etc etc etc

The Unitarian Church today is still on the front lines out their helping their communities, fighting the good fight. Even and especially when it’s unpopular.

Yet you’ll deny them because they disagree on doctrine??

These fruits?
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
‭‭Galatians 5:22‬ ‭

Well it’s pretty important to get Jesus right since He is the only way to the Father, the only one who can reconcile you to God the Father. If you get that wrong you aren’t born again. Doesn’t matter then how many “good” things you do, your good things are just filthy rags to God without believing on Jesus and being saved.

 

[justjess]

I do not see how we are talking about different fruits here... did u even glance at the list? With every single post I am becoming more and more convinced that you don’t even read before you speak. You just seem to post what amounts to bible thumping diarrhea of the mouth..

I fully believe Jesus to be the savior and to have come to correct us and show us the way. Not good enough for you? Cool. That’s why I don’t even bother with these conversations here 90+% of the time. You can believe and will believe whatever it is that makes you happy and that’s fine. Why the eternal torment of another person would make you happy... that’s between you and your god.

 

[Lisa]

I do not see how we are talking about different fruits here... did u even glance at the list? With every single post I am becoming more and more convinced that you don’t even read before you speak. You just seem to post what amounts to bible thumping diarrhea of the mouth..

I fully believe Jesus to be the savior and to have come to correct us and show us the way. Not good enough for you? Cool. That’s why I don’t even bother with these conversations here 90+% of the time. You can believe and will believe whatever it is that makes you happy and that’s fine. Why the eternal torment of another person would make you happy... that’s between you and your god.

I did...but like I said if you aren’t in the faith your fruit doesn’t mean much.

I never said hell makes me happy. I don’t know where you got that?

 

[justjess]

I did...but like I said if you aren’t in the faith your fruit doesn’t mean much.

I never said hell makes me happy. I don’t know where you got that?

So people can be the best people ever, exemplify Christ like actions in all they do and something like not believing in the trinity or not believing in eternal hell or not believing Jesus is literally god just means none of that matters?

 

[Vytas]

We all are to some degree or another. I know there are still likely things that I believe from my indoctrination that God has yet to reveal and change. I would hope that every Christian is constantly seeking and asking God to show them where their beliefs are wrong.

The reason there are so many different Christian denominations is because throughout history God showed individuals where church doctrine was not correct. When a faithful servant of God tried to correct the doctrine of the Church and was rejected, either that individual or the few who agreed with him ended up started a new denomination. But history repeats itself and most denominations after starting based on a new revelation from God stay stuck in that revelation and never move on to the next thing God wants to correct and change. The end result is 100's of different sects and denominations, many of which were founded on a fresh revelation and truth from God.

Don't get me wrong there are plenty of mainstream churches that are reaching peole and bringing them closer to God. But the paradigm of institionalized religion is not the only expression of the living Body of Christ. Some of my beliefs prevent me from being fully engaged in a traditional institutionalized church without me pretending to accept things I do not believe. I'm not the type to sit quietly in a church pew and not engage. So rather than cause strife and turmoil in a conventional church organization I have trusted God to open other doors for me to minister and use my gifts. Because of this I have been able to reach a lot of people who would never enter the doors of a conventional church buidling or organization. It doesn't make me better or more important than leaders in the conventional church. It's just what it is.

I come here to share and debate my contrarian views becasue I would expect that people on a consipracy theory website would be more open minded and less prone to stay stuck in the indoctrination of institutionalized religion.

I don't think those revelations are from God, not a single one who started a new denomination, or new religion for that matter. How i see it devil tries to confuse believers that there are many options and many roads, while there is only one. We are very susceptible to wishful thinking. We wan't to believe in things that benefits us. For example loving a person who is unsaved can easily make a someone to look for interpretations or community who has more liberal view of judgment day...perhaps a poor example but you get the idea.

Interestingly enough i would think there are very few who would fit under category "indoctrinated by institutionalized religion" look in threads throughout 3-4 pages people are researching and questioning things. Unless by definition if they disagree with you then they fit in a certain category (learning to push buttons from the master )

 

[shankara]

So people can be the best people ever, exemplify Christ like actions in all they do and something like not believing in the trinity or not believing in eternal hell or not believing Jesus is literally god just means none of that matters?

'Coz God is the Spanish Inquisition, He just tortures heretics...

 

[Lisa]

So people can be the best people ever, exemplify Christ like actions in all they do and something like not believing in the trinity or not believing in eternal hell or not believing Jesus is literally god just means none of that matters?

No one is the best people ever..
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
‭‭Romans 3:23‬ ‭

And there is a certain way it is done...
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:11-12‬ ‭

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

 

[Todd]

I don't think those revelations are from God, not a single one who started a new denomination, or new religion for that matter. How i see it devil tries to confuse believers that there are many options and many roads, while there is only one. We are very susceptible to wishful thinking. We wan't to believe in things that benefits us. For example loving a person who is unsaved can easily make a someone to look for interpretations or community who has more liberal view of judgment day...perhaps a poor example but you get the idea.

Interestingly enough i would think there are very few who would fit under category "indoctrinated by institutionalized religion" look in threads throughout 3-4 pages people are researching and questioning things. Unless by definition if they disagree with you then they fit in a certain category (learning to push buttons from the master )

I don't think those revelations are from God, not a single one who started a new denomination, or new religion for that matter. How i see it devil tries to confuse believers that there are many options and many roads, while there is only one. We are very susceptible to wishful thinking. We wan't to believe in things that benefits us. For example loving a person who is unsaved can easily make a someone to look for interpretations or community who has more liberal view of judgment day...perhaps a poor example but you get the idea.

I have to disagree with you here. The whole protestant movement is based on the idea of reformation of doctrine and practice based on Revelation from God. I agree that ultimately starting a new denomination is not the preferred method of refomation of the Church, but that is fault of the church itself not the individuals who brought the revelation from God that the Church needed reform. Maybe we are talking about two different things? If not for God bringing reformation and people strated new denominations we would all still be Roman Catholic, no?

Interestingly enough i would think there are very few who would fit under category "indoctrinated by institutionalized religion" look in threads throughout 3-4 pages people are researching and questioning things. Unless by definition if they disagree with you then they fit in a certain category (learning to push buttons from the master )

Point out three examples of Christians on this forum who have drastically changed any single point about their theology or doctrine, and I will gladly concede this point to you.

 

[Daciple]

The whole protestant movement is based on the idea of reformation of doctrine and practice based on Revelation from God.

Is that right?

Or is it that Martin Luther was one of the very few people at the time that had access and the ability to the Bible and began to read and study for himself what it said and compared and contrasted it to what the Catholic Church was teaching?

Martin Luther didnt take it as some special Revelation from God that caused him to write out this 95 Theses, it was his meticulous study over the course of his life and also the study from other Theologians that caused him to write out his Theses. The 2 biggest things he disagreed with was Faith Alone was good enough for Salvation, and the use of indulgences for Sins, aka paying off the Church to practice Sin. Most of the Theses revolved around this.

Compare that to say Muhammad, or Joseph Smith or Charles T Russell or Ellen G White, the people who created new Religions and Cults, all of them stated to have some fantastic vision or "Special Revelation" or were visited by Angels ect who then "corrected" the established Doctrine at that time or added to it ect.


Martin Luther simply took what he saw as discrepancies between what the Catholic Church taught and practiced and what the Word of God ALONE taught. Also it is not as tho he alone came up with these ideals, others in the past believed and taught the same types of things, Martin just happened to live during an era where the Bible was actually being copied and translated into Languages other than Latin, so the common folk could read the Bible for themselves and then take what he said and see which rang more true to what the Bible stated.

Clearly many people saw that the Catholic Churches teachings were corrupted and didnt line up to the Bible when they read it for themselves and thus began the actual Movement of people breaking away from the Catholic Church.

It was not some special Revelation from God as you persist to say, it was simply a man who saw the difference that the Bible taught and then brought questions to the Catholic Church, the rest is History...

Point out three examples of Christians on this forum who have drastically changed any single point about their theology or doctrine, and I will gladly concede this point to you.

Well I personally went from a Pre Trib Dispensationalist Zionist to rejecting all of that, or is it that one needs to actually deny their Faith and reject Jesus as God, the Trinity and Eternal Damnation to qualify as "drastically changing"?

Ive seen multiple people change their beliefs on this Board, maybe not this particular iteration, which is probably the weakest and worst so far, which many less people contributing, but in the past iterations I watched people change their beliefs drastically in all sorts of different methods. Some from Satanists to now being a pillar in his Church with a wonderful Christian Family.

Ive seen Christians change their beliefs in many different topics, from Eschatology, to Calvinism, to Eternal Salvation ect. Ive even seen people go from saying they are Christians (well they were in a Cult) to moving to a different Cult, to becoming essentially Occultists, to Atheists.

Ive been on here for 10 years and have seen people change their beliefs drastically in all sorts of different manners, however what you want to see are people do what you did and deny their Faith, reject the central core doctrines that actually make one a Christian (regardless of denomination) and believe in the lies you believe in. Otherwise we all are indoctrinated in Religious Institutions.

It is as tho you personally believe that what you perceive as Religious Institutions, have absolutely nothing right and until we or even you reject everything that has been taught by them and replaced by some opposite teaching, we and you are indoctrinated.

Look at what you write man, " I know there are still likely things that I believe from my indoctrination that God has yet to reveal and change. I would hope that every Christian is constantly seeking and asking God to show them where their beliefs are wrong."

It is as tho you think everything you believed (for whatever reason it was in the past) was simply indoctrination, and God needs to correct it all because it was all untrue.

Maybe, just maybe what you once held was True but it isnt God trying to reveal that they were incorrect but the Devil trying to move you away from the Truth in hopes you will spread lies and mislead others. Isnt that what the Devil does?

I know you dont care about the numerous warnings that every single Christian on this site has warned you about, but the facts are God isnt revealing anything to you, you are being mislead and have created reasons and justifications for yourself as to why you can reject central doctrines that define the Religion known as Christianity.

Some Doctrines dont matter, we can all disagree on them and a persons Salvation wouldnt be at risk, however the main things you always want to talk about, are all the things that affect Salvation 100%. Rejecting Jesus as God, Rejecting Grace by Faith (that thing Martin wrote his Theses about), teaching that everyone goes to Heaven no matter what, ect ect ect, almost everything you teach on this site is in direct contradiction to the Bible and basic Faith of Christianity. You are simply a False Teacher who wants everyone to reject everything that brings Salvation declaring if anyone dares believe the Doctrine that brings Salvation, then they are indoctrinated...

It would be great if one day you became one of the 3 people you are looking for that drastically change their beliefs from the time they entered this Forum...

 

[Todd]

Is that right?

Or is it that Martin Luther was one of the very few people at the time that had access and the ability to the Bible and began to read and study for himself what it said and compared and contrasted it to what the Catholic Church was teaching?

It was not some special Revelation from God as you persist to say, it was simply a man who saw the difference that the Bible taught and then brought questions to the Catholic Church, the rest is History...

Well in my book that is what revelation is. When you hear or read the word of God and realize something you thought was one way, or something your were taught was one way and then you saw in the word of God something different. I guess you and I have different definition of what a revelation is.

Well I personally went from a Pre Trib Dispensationalist Zionist to rejecting all of that, or is it that one needs to actually deny their Faith and reject Jesus as God, the Trinity and Eternal Damnation to qualify as "drastically changing"?

No that absolutely counts. I did not know that about you. Two more examples and I will concede that point to @Vytas like I said I would.

I've seen multiple people change their beliefs on this Board, maybe not this particular iteration, which is probably the weakest and worst so far, which many less people contributing, but in the past iterations I watched people change their beliefs drastically in all sorts of different methods. Some from Satanists to now being a pillar in his Church with a wonderful Christian Family.

Well I haven't seen it. Which is why I asked for 3 examples.

I've seen Christians change their beliefs in many different topics, from Eschatology, to Calvinism, to Eternal Salvation ect. Ive even seen people go from saying they are Christians (well they were in a Cult) to moving to a different Cult, to becoming essentially Occultists, to Atheists.

Again my experience is that a thread comes up on these types of doctrines and theologies and everyone argues there own pre-existing view and very little people actually ever concede the other side makes a valid point, more or less even change what they themselves believe. You can respect someone's beliefs without agreeing with them.

I've been on here for 10 years and have seen people change their beliefs drastically in all sorts of different manners, however what you want to see are people do what you did and deny their Faith, reject the central core doctrines that actually make one a Christian (regardless of denomination) and believe in the lies you believe in. Otherwise we all are indoctrinated in Religious Institutions.

I'm not asking anyone to deny their faith. My faith was never in the doctrine of Trinity, even though I thought it was true. My faith was in the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross. Still is. I'm not asking anyone to deny that.

It is as tho you personally believe that what you perceive as Religious Institutions, have absolutely nothing right and until we or even you reject everything that has been taught by them and replaced by some opposite teaching, we and you are indoctrinated.

No not really, but you have proven track record of assuming you know what I believe and think and you keep making conclusion and judgements about me based on your assumptions. Nice to see you keeping the trend going and having not a clue what you are talking about.

Look at what you write man, " I know there are still likely things that I believe from my indoctrination that God has yet to reveal and change. I would hope that every Christian is constantly seeking and asking God to show them where their beliefs are wrong."

It is as tho you think everything you believed (for whatever reason it was in the past) was simply indoctrination, and God needs to correct it all because it was all untrue.

More assumptions. There is plenty I was taught from the Church that I still hold true and practice. I just don't spend time on a Consiparcy websites talking about it. I would think it strange to come to a Conspiracy forum and tallk about what is generally accepted as true by the masses.

Maybe, just maybe what you once held was True but it isnt God trying to reveal that they were incorrect but the Devil trying to move you away from the Truth in hopes you will spread lies and mislead others. Isnt that what the Devil does?

I'm not misleading anyone. I only share what I see in the Word of God and ask others to look at it for themselves. I'm not starting a new denomination or asking anyone to "follow" me. The fruit of the Sprit (Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control) have all increased in my life since my beliefs have change. If my "supposed deception" you speak of is a tool of a the Devil it's not working very well LOL!

I know you dont care about the numerous warnings that every single Christian on this site has warned you about, but the facts are God isnt revealing anything to you, you are being mislead and have created reasons and justifications for yourself as to why you can reject central doctrines that define the Religion known as Christianity.

I don't recall anywhere in the Bible were accepting a Religion was commanded by God. So no, I'm not worried about Christian's warning me about doctrine. If I were commiting sins or being warned about not walking in the fruit of the Spirit, then yes I would be concerned. When others have pointed out instances were I have acted outside of the fruit of the Spirit, I have taken it seriously and repented and asked for forgiveness.

Some Doctrines dont matter, we can all disagree on them and a persons Salvation wouldnt be at risk, however the main things you always want to talk about, are all the things that affect Salvation 100%. Rejecting Jesus as God, Rejecting Grace by Faith (that thing Martin wrote his Theses about), teaching that everyone goes to Heaven no matter what, ect ect ect, almost everything you teach on this site is in direct contradiction to the Bible and basic Faith of Christianity. You are simply a False Teacher who wants everyone to reject everything that brings Salvation declaring if anyone dares believe the Doctrine that brings Salvation, then they are indoctrinated...

I have never rejected Grace by Faith. Again you prove your assumptions about what I believe to be totally inaccurate. I once started a thread asking were the Bible teaches believing Jesus is God is commanded for salvation. No one was able to answer it. I believe what the Bible tells me is necesssary for salvation. I believe in the sacrifice Chist made on the Cross. I believe Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah and that God has made him Lord. I have repented from sins and turned the other way, trusting God and trusting in the grace that comes from Jesus' work on the cross.

I'm not sure why that is not good enough for you. I may disagree with you that Jesus is actually God, but it's not reason for me to reject as a brother in faith. I also don't understand how believing in eternal damnation is pre-requisite for salvation. Is God going to reject my faith in Chirst's work on the cross because I incorrectly believed he could save everybody and that he is really able to bring about his will? That seems very strange to me. I don't believe God is going to reject you, because you don't think he is able to reconcile and redeem everyone.

It would be great if one day you became one of the 3 people you are looking for that drastically change their beliefs from the time they entered this Forum...

Again you prove that you are making inccorect assumptions about me. When I came to VC forums I was a Trinitarian Pastor who believed most of humanity was going to burn in hell.