Todd
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  • Pure religion is not about earning heaven or escaping hell. It is about discerning our proper place and role in creation -- that God did not create us to be cowering supplicants or greedy schemers, striving to escape this world. Instead, we see ourselves as God sees us -- as the crown of creation... capable of loving as He has loved, and destined to dwell with God forever. When God looks on us, God smiles.
    DevaWolf
    DevaWolf
    Strange how the only non religious person here does get the essence of this post.
    shankara
    shankara
    I like what he's saying, it's a nice sentiment. Maybe I got a bit caught up in the whole "destined to dwell with God forever" business... Though personally I believe in Transmigration but there's the fundamental similarity of there being no Eternal Punishment...
    shankara
    shankara
    But yeah, if religion is just about fleeing from some suffering it's not really religion and conversely there are atheists who are more virtuous human beings than many so-called "religious" people who behave well simply because of the threat of damnation. Or even behave badly assuming that they are saved by their dogma.
    If man's will can prevail over God's will, then God cannot be sovereign. [READ AND SEARCH GOD'S PLAN. HAROLD LOVELACE. Pg 17]
    It eventually occurred to me that my ultimate allegiance belonged not to the Bible, but to the One of whom it testified. We are not to worship the Bible; we are to worship the One the Bible reveals. Jesus invited us to look up from the page and into God's face. [IF GRACE IS TRUE. GULLEY & MULHOLLAND. Pg 42]
    Todd
    Todd
    Yes we do disagree then. You can say there are no contradictions in the Bible all you want but that doesn't mean there aren't. Going back and forth about it will likely bear little fruit, so I will conduct my discussions with you going forward with the presuppostion that all of the Bible is the innerrant word of God.
    DevaWolf
    DevaWolf
    Do you think you need the Bible to understand God?
    Todd
    Todd
    I think you need it to understand the question if God is good and loving why is there so much suffering in the world.
    The Bible is man’s understanding of the Covenant of God (his promises to those who submit and trust him). But man’s understanding of the covenant has never been perfect.
    The reconciliation of creation is thus already achieved in Christ and yet is only experienced as a reality by those in Christ by faith. They are the first to taste the reconciliation that has been won for all. The church, then, is a present sign of the reconciliation that the whole creation will one day experience. [THE EVANGELICAL UNIVERSALIST. GREGORY MACDONALD. Pg 51]
    Christians believe that Christ died for all sin---except the sin of not believing He died for all sin
    Todd
    Todd
    The ones who don’t believe In Universal Reconciliation.
    DevaWolf
    DevaWolf
    Does universal reconcilation mean everyone gets to go to heaven eventually?
    Todd
    Todd
    Technically we don’t go to heaven. New Jerusalem (the city of God, comprised of the saints) comes down from heaven to the new earth. It’s gates are never closed and the saints invite those who are thirsty coming out of the lake of fire to drink of the living water flowing from the city. But yes UR says all will eventually be reconciled to God.
    "We cannot conceive of a Creator who knows the end from the beginning, one who is Love, who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages.
    G. Campbell Morgan Pastor, "Sermon: The cross and the ages to come" , Westminster Chapel, London
    P
    phipps
    When the earth ends and Jesus returns everyone's fate shall be decided. There will be no chance for anyone to be converted, not according to Word of God.

    “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work." Revelation 22:12.
    P
    phipps
    "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8.

    The second death is everlasting death.
    Todd
    Todd
    The doctrine of annilahation is better than eternal torment. But the bible says death is the last enemy of God to be destroyed. How can death be destroyed if even one unbeliever remains dead forever? While annhilation cetainly does less damage to the loving character of God, I see too many verses in the bible that speak of the reconciliation of all men, to accept annilahation. Jesus will be 100% victorious.
    The Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they
    stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton
    (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement)
    -J.W. HANSON, D. D. Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church
    P
    phipps
    The term forever is used 56 times in the King James Bible in connection with things that have already ended.* It is like the word “tall,” which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, “forever” means “three days and nights.” In Deuteronomy 23:3, it means 10 generations. In the case of mankind, it means “as long as he lives” or “until death.”
    P
    phipps
    (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out. The unbiblical teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism than any other invention of the devil.
    P
    phipps
    It is slander upon the loving character of a gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.

    *To check in a concordance, look up the word “ever.”
    The talismanic word of the Alexandrian fathers, as of the
    New Testament, was FATHER. This word, as now, unlocked
    all mysteries, solved all problems, and explained all the
    enigmas of time and eternity. Holding God as Father, punishment
    was held to be remedial, and therefore restorative,
    and final recovery from sin universal. - J.W. HANSON, D. D.
    P
    phipps
    “ ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?’ ” (Ezekiel 33:11).

    “The Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them” (Luke 9:56).

    “The Lord will rise up … that He may do His work, His awesome work, and bring to pass His act, His unusual act” (Isaiah 28:21).
    P
    phipps
    @Todd, God is always about saving rather than destroying. The work of destroying the wicked in hell is so foreign to God’s nature that the Bible calls it His “unusual act.” God’s great heart will ache at the destruction of the wicked. But if one rejects His love and clings to sin, God will have no choice but to destroy them when He rids the universe of sin. Sin has got to come to an end no matter what.
    P
    phipps
    @Todd, God created us with free will, it will be our choice where we end up. Hell is really meant only for Satan and his angels not for people but unfortunately many will choose Satan over God. God cannot force us to choose Him so He will honour all of our choices. God has warned us over and over about the consequences of sin and not choosing Him hasn't He?
    We do not start our Christian lives by working out our faith for ourselves; it is mediated to us by Christian tradition, in the form of sermons, books and established patterns of church life and fellowship. We read our Bibles in the light of what we have learned from these sources; we approach Scripture with minds already formed by the mass of accepted opinions and viewpoints with which we have come into contact.
    Blizzard conditions here in Buffalo, NY. The factory I work at closed at Noon and already decided we would be closed tomorrow.

    So instead I will be driving aides who can’t get to our clients who can’t be left home alone.
    How do you know when you have "won" a religious debate? When the person you are debating with stops attempting to use intellect, logic and exegesis of scripture, and then resorts to accusations and judgements about the condition of your soul.
    Damien50
    Damien50
    Debate doesn't edify or amplify the process of becoming closer to God rather it distances one from God because the focus of winning becomes about self rather than helping. No one knows the condition of another's soul or their final destination yet others brag and condemn on their own judgement.
    Todd
    Todd
    @Damien50 I agree, which is why I put "won" in quotation marks. I'm not really concerned if anyone accepts or rejects my arguments. I am just disappointed when those who claim to be Christian, resort to vitriol and condemnation when someone doesn't see eye to eye.
    JoChris
    JoChris
    Todd, it wouldn't matter to you if any Christians typed with the same level of knowledge or eloquence as these preachers (dealing with a key doctrine that you contradict the bible upon). https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermons.asp?keyword=Hell
    You have hardened your heart against the Christian message.
    Will Jesus give you the "thumbs up" on Judgement Day, when you do not believe what He says?
    Where Jesus tried to create Christian individuals, Saint Paul tried to create Christian groups. This opened the door to hypocrisy, externalism, materialism, ritualism, priestcraft, persecution, and deterioration. The realizable kingdom of heaven within man had to give way to an unrealizable kingdom of God on earth. The way back to true religion must therefore lie through making a fresh start-Notebooks of Paul Brunton
    I am still baffled why so many Christians come to a conspiracy website to regurgitate the same old tired doctrines of man they received from institutionalized religion. How is it they can see conspiracy in every other area of society except for this? Jesus had very radical ideas compared with the mainstream "orthodox" religion of his day. Jesus was a heretic by the purest defintion...
    “Without the persistent rising up of individuals that seek the Lord and place themselves under His direct leadership, churches will inevitably...slip into human hierarchy, institutionalizing a system of doctrines and practices.”
    ― Henry Hon, ONE: Unfolding God's Eternal Purpose from House to House
    Matthew 10:8 versus 2 cor 11:8 and 1 Timothy 5:7-18
    Matthew 23:9 versus 1 Cor 4:15
    Jesus taught we are all equal in Christ. He Is the only Pastor and Teacher.
    Paul taught hierarchy in the church and is the basis for the differentiation between "clergy" and "laity".
    Genesis 49:27 Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he devours the prey, in the evening he divides the plunder / spoils.
    Paul was a Benjamite. Paul in his early days killed christians. In his latter days he promoted the division of gentiles and jews by saying he alone was the apsotle of the gentiles. Peter on the other hand recieved the revelation that he was to preach the same gospel to jews AND gentiles.
    Etagloc
    Etagloc
    What is a Benjamite?
    Todd
    Todd
    Someone from the tribe of Benjamin.
    It's ineteresting that the only explicit testimony that Paul was "a servant of the most high" and caried "a way of salvation" recorded in the bible is the testimony of a prophetess with the Spirit of Python. So the stongest testimony and affrimation of Paul's ministry was from Satan?
    “'Cursed is the one who perverts the justice due the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.' "And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'” (Deut. 27:19.)
    Versus...
    Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number.
    But refuse the younger widows
    (1 timothy 5:9-12)
    Todd
    Todd
    “Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, ‘Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,’ but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?” (James 2:15-16)

    James 1:27 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world
    Dalit
    Dalit
    One of my best friends and a mentor is an elderly widow. Actually, she doesn't seem elderly at all. She's who I want to be like when I grow up. :-)
    Likes: mecca
    Matthew 23:10 And do not accept the name of 'leader,' for your Leader is one alone--the Christ

    John 6:45 it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;
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