Once Saved Always Saved?

phipps

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#1
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39).

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29).

These verses are often quoted by Christians who believe and teach that once a person chooses to believe in Christ they can never be lost. The doctrine is sometimes referred to as “eternal security.” It is the assurance of salvation to all who once accepted Christ as their Saviour, regardless of what they might believe or do from that moment onward. Is this what the Bible teaches?


Freedom of Choice

The idea that a person can never lose their salvation once they’ve accepted the gift of salvation is akin to the doctrine of predestination, which is the belief that God alone chooses who will be lost and who will be saved and human beings have no real say in the matter. These doctrines of “eternal security” and predestination rule out freedom of choice. But freedom of choice is a fundamental principle of Bible teachings and the fairness of God depends upon it. Therefore, the above Scriptures must be interpreted in light of this overarching principle of freedom of choice.

Does Salvation Take Away Your Freedom of Choice?

The Bible clearly teaches that people have the freedom to choose whether they will be saved or lost and whether they will serve God or Satan. Does God take away a person’s right to freely choose or change his mind once he becomes a Christian? Or can someone turn away from following Christ once they’ve been saved and defect to the enemy? Is it possible to be lost once you’ve been saved? Let’s see what Jesus teaches about freedom of choice and eternal security.


Dangers of Once-Saved-Always-Saved Doctrine

The main problem in believing the once-saved-always-saved doctrine is that it leads to complacency toward personal spiritual growth and the state of fellow-believers and leads to a false sense of security that can actually result in eternal loss.


Complacency

If one believes that once they’ve accepted salvation there is nothing they can do to ever lose their salvation, they can become complacent about their relationship with Christ, because regardless of whether they spend time nurturing that relationship or not, they believe they will always be saved. This is an extremely dangerous attitude. The Bible clearly teaches otherwise.


Lack of Growth

Consider also the effect of the doctrine of eternal salvation on spiritual growth in believers. A relationship with Christ is dynamic. Jesus expects us to learn and grow because sanctification is a process. Remember that Jesus compared believers to branches on a vine. As a Christian studies the Bible, he learns new truth, applies it to his life and grows. Jesus called Himself the bread of life because He knew that everyone understood that eating is a continual necessity throughout life and that physical maintenance and growth are the result of taking food daily. Christians must grow.

Peter applied this principle of Christian growth to the necessity of ongoing assimilation of spiritual food from the Word of God and encouraged new believers to study the Scriptures: “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby” (1 Peter 2:2). Paul also described new believers as being like milk-fed infants who need to grow and mature before they can handle more solid food (1 Corinthians 3:2). The author of Acts points to Apollos as a real-life case study of the kind of spiritual growth that must exemplify the life of every believer. Read his story in Acts 18: 24-28.


Lack of Response

Significantly, James warned that once a Christian understands God’s will he must act upon it. Not acting upon truth as it is discovered during our study of God’s Word is sinning, James warned.

"Therefore to him that knoweth how to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17).

Sadly, some evangelists have discovered that the doctrine of eternal salvation is a hindrance to spiritual growth in those who believe it, because they feel no necessity in assimilating new spiritual truths when they discover them, since there is nothing they can do to lose their salvation, regardless of James’ warning to the contrary.

In addition to disregarding sin in their own lives, believers in the doctrine of eternal security must also become complacent to the sin of other Christians, since it matters not whether a “saved” Christian falls into sin. The doctrines of eternal security and predestination make exhortation against sin unnecessary, since by predestination God saves some and damns others apart from their free choice, and the once-saved-always-saved doctrine may excuse sin in those who consider themselves to be safely secure for all eternity.


Conclusion

The doctrine of “eternal security” is not supported by Scripture as a whole. It is based on a shallow reading of some verses and requires rejection of the Biblically solid doctrine of freedom of choice. Since freedom of choice is God-given and absolute, it is possible for a person to change his or her mind at any time and reject salvation.
 





phipps

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#2
Predestination

Unconditional election (also called “unconditional grace” or “predestination”) teaches that before the world was created, God predestinated some people to be saved (the elect) and the rest to continue in their sins and, therefore, be damned, consigned to the eternally burning fires of hell. Human choice, it asserts, plays no role in salvation. A key passage used to support this view is found in the apostle Paul’s writings—
Whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:29, 30).
Certainly, Bible passages can be used to support the concept that God knows all things past, present, and future. “All things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13). Bible prophecy affirms that God knows the future, but future events do not happen because God “foreknew” them; rather, they are known by God because they will take place.

Moreover, because God knows something will happen does not mean He wills it to happen.

Did God predestinate that only some would be saved? Paul writes elsewhere that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). If only some are predestined to be saved, why would Jesus offer salvation to all? Christ said, in the closing chapter of the Bible, Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17, emphasis added).

The Contemporary English Version Bible translates Romans 8:29 more precisely, stating that God “has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.” While everyone is called to salvation, not everyone responds. But to those who choose to come to Christ, these are transformed into His likeness.

One reason Calvin argued in favour of predestination was to make sure God receives all the glory. He believed that if you have any part to play in your salvation—even your own choice to accept Jesus—then you would deserve some credit. Therefore, he concluded, you really do not have a choice. God’s sovereignty, he taught, does not permit human free will.

It’s an interesting theory, but it is not biblical.

I like to think of God’s foreknowledge as something like a helicopter pilot flying above a mountain with a one-way tunnel dug through it. Since the mountain is composed of solid granite, the engineers decided to blast only one lane through the rock, placing a stop light at either end so that vehicles would take turns going through the narrow tunnel. But on a particular day, one of the stop lights was broken.

When the pilot looked down, he first saw a big eighteen-wheeler entering one end at sixty miles per hour. Then he noticed a little red sports car zipping into the tunnel from the other end. The helicopter pilot knew what was about to happen; however, his knowledge did not make the inevitable accident occur; he simply had foreknowledge of a coming collision because of his perspective.

God has an all-knowing perspective. He knows whether you are going to be saved or lost, but this knowledge does not take away your free choice. We know this because of the many Scripture passages that demonstrate our freedom to choose. Joshua told Israel to “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15). The story of the fall of humanity shows the high value (and high price) that God gave to Adam and Eve when He let them choose whether to obey or disobey Him.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/news-a...magazine/id/14710/t/once-saved--always-saved-
 





phipps

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#5
Can you lose your salvation through sin and neglecting your relationship with God? Or do you have to formally reject your salvation?
I will use scripture to answer that question.

"He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:13.

"If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51.

"Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14.

"If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.

"If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14.

"If we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.

"If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15

"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24.

"He that overcometh . . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life." Revelation 3:5
 





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phipps

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#6
Can you get Salvation, lose it and then get it again?
Backsliders can come back to Christ and receive the gift of salvation again.

“If a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die” Ezekiel 18:21

“Return, you backsliding children, And I will heal your backslidings” Jeremiah 3:22

“Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight” Hosea 6:1, 2

And then you go to the statements of Jesus to the church in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, and He talks to different churches, such as Ephesus that lost their first love and He tells them how to come back and Laodicea, He tells them how to return. Five churches all were backslidden, and He tells them how to return.

Matter of fact, it speaks very specifically in the Bible that God will heal our backsliding so there are a lot of Scriptures. Peter denied the Lord three times and he repented. He wept bitterly and he was restored and reinstated.

King David, a major backsliding with Bath Sheba. Murder, adultery, you name it, lying and he was punished by the Lord. He repented. He said, ‘I’ve sinned.’ God forgave him. He was restored.

So there are many, many stories in the Bible that give us hope that if a person wanders from the will of God, they can return. Jonah! A good example. He repented in the belly of a whale, and his prayer managed to…
 





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#7
Im not asking about backsliding, I am asking if you can actually lose your Salvation out right have it gone then gain it back.

Do you not believe there is a difference between backsliding and actually losing your Salvation?

At what point does someone actually lose it, if it can be lost as you suggest? Is it 25 Sins? 50? 1000?

Can you give us Scripture that tells us exactly when we lose our Salvation, how many Sins or whatever it is that that determines when our Salvation is lost? I need to know because I wouldnt ever want to lose my Salvation and I struggle with some Sins, I struggle with my Faith, I struggle in my walk all the time and you are telling me my Salvation is in Jeopardy. That Jesus Christs work on the Cross isnt good enough for my Salvation, that I need to maintain it, that I need to keep my own Salvation.

Jesus' perfect life, Jesus perfect walk, Jesus perfect Death, perfect Sacrifice, perfect Resurrection and Ascension, isnt good enough to get me to Heaven or keep me Justified before God, that now I have to worry about everything I do, because we dont know when Jesus is going to reject me because of Sin or unfaithfulness or whatever else it is that you would like to tell us can cause us to forfeit our Salvation.

You are saying that Jesus Blood isnt quite good enough to keep my Salvation, and that Jesus has and does look at people whom He literally died for, for ALL of their Sins, and then accepts them, they are Born Again, and He sits back and waits until they do whatever it is that you say causes us to forfeit their Salvation and lets them go to Hell. Jesus literally knows that even tho they have come to Him and believed on Him and are at some point Saved and Born Again, He knows they will forfeit it and He sits back and allows it to happen instead of taking them home.

See I ask if someone can have Salvation and lose it and then gain it back because Scirpture is actually very specific about this, and the answer is NO they can not ever receive Salvation again IF (big if there as in its not really possible) they were able to lose it. To do so is to cause Christ to be Re Sacrificed.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It is impossible to lose Salvation and get it back, it can not be done, so are you going to preached to the Saved that they indeed can lose their Salvation because then you also must tell them that if they lose it, they CAN NOT EVER REPENT and come back.

The fact is when someone truly has accepted Christ they become a New Creature that WILL NEVER lose their Salvation. I have written extensively on this topic, and you are welcome to read our debates on this on these Threads if you so choose:

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/calvinism-vs-arminianism.2657/#post-86554

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/t...l-and-predestination-paradox.3281/#post-98408

I believe the Truth of this matter lies in the understanding of Molinism, research it and see what it says...
 





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#8
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39).

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29).

These verses are often quoted by Christians who believe and teach that once a person chooses to believe in Christ they can never be lost. The doctrine is sometimes referred to as “eternal security.” It is the assurance of salvation to all who once accepted Christ as their Saviour, regardless of what they might believe or do from that moment onward. Is this what the Bible teaches?


Freedom of Choice

The idea that a person can never lose their salvation once they’ve accepted the gift of salvation is akin to the doctrine of predestination, which is the belief that God alone chooses who will be lost and who will be saved and human beings have no real say in the matter. These doctrines of “eternal security” and predestination rule out freedom of choice. But freedom of choice is a fundamental principle of Bible teachings and the fairness of God depends upon it. Therefore, the above Scriptures must be interpreted in light of this overarching principle of freedom of choice.
You have approached this from carnal reasoning. Salvation is a Spiritual act of God, Yes we can choose.....It is called repentance. (This is done by the act of man agreeing with God that he is a sinner). "There is no one righteous....no, not one!" (Rom. 3:9-20). When a man agrees, and is convicted by the gospel (genuine repentance) not going to church, claiming that as salvation, Then God regenerates that man with the Holy Spirit (an eternal guarantee) of the purchased possession by the Blood of Christ. (Eph. 1:11-14)….So in that Context, a man has eternal security. What is the one thing that you would think that would cause a true believer to lose his salvation? (denying the Lord would be it! (Matt. 26:69-75.....Peter denies Christ three times, But Christ never revokes Peters salvation! (John 21:15-17) That is what it means for Christ to be our advocate, He is our propitiation (Mercy Seat) Eternal in the Heavens.
Election is according to God's sovereign will , Theological conflicts have raged over the doctrine of ELECTION, But not over the fact of election, which all admit, but over the motive in the divine mind which determines God's elective act. That God's act in ELECTION upon good and righteous grounds is sure to every reverent mind. But it has not pleased Him to disclose His motives in election..

Election is according to the foreknowlege of God. Election, like predestination, is declared to be according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2). But Scripture nowhere declares what it is in the divine foreknowledge which determines the divine choice. It is not divine foreknowledge of any merit in the chosen. For election is declared to be of Grace (Rom. 9:11; 11:5-6). The relation of God's foreknowledge to His electing Grace is therefore an unrevealed relation. (2 Tim. 2:10)
 





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#9
I will use scripture to answer that question.

"He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:13.

"If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51.

"Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14.

"If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.

"If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14.

"If we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.

"If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15

"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24.

"He that overcometh . . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life." Revelation 3:5
You're quoting out of context, and leaving out the comparative verses that serve to clarify-- it is false teaching, phipps.

In Hebrews 3, for example, you left this out--

And to whom did He swear that they shall not enter into His rest, if not to those having disobeyed?

And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

UNBELIEF is a failure to accept the Grace offered-- it is NOT backsliding. Quit with the nonsensical copy/paste that calls God a liar, and quote properly the WHOLE passage.
 





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#10
Aligning bible verses and make them sound reasonables is not necessarily what the bible means by preaching the truth since you have to have the holy spirit and be mandate by GOD to teach the bible in order to understand the subtlety or fineness of the bible doctrine.
This guy have just aligned verses and make them sound great but his conclusion is just the opposite of the sound doctrine:
1. Sometimes the bible sound in some points like contradiction: this contradiction is just the difficulty that human has to understand the God word. And we have to accept this "contradiction" as a way to say both assertions are right: let's put things in that way:

- Yes the predestination is scriptural and it's the bible doctrine, you have to accept it as part of the bible or reject the entire bible.
- Yes the man effort or free determination to accept or reject the salvation is also bible doctrine, you have to accept it or reject the entire bible.
Between the predestination and the free determination, there is a bridge to unite them not to separate them and that bridge is the SINCERITY in your faith.
From day one God knows if you're sincere when you came to him or not and while you judge yourself at the moment your came sincerely to him, but he at the contrary judge you by seeing your end because he can see from day one your end and knows how you are going to end up in your faith. So according to what he is seeing at your end, not your beginning, he will judge you whever sincere or not sincere. If he judges you sincere and trustworthy, that Sincerity doesn't means you will not fall in sin or will never get fatigue in your faith. SINCERITY means whatever you will abandon him in some moment of your life, but you will not end up in that position, you Will repent. So he knows you, he trust you and knows you love him and will never forsake him at the end even if you will have some hard time. In this position, the day one you come to him, he will once save you, give you the once eternal life that will never be retaken again.
HOW THE ONCE SALVATION WORKS AND WHY IT'S REALLY ONCE? Ended, after his judgment of the SINCERITY of your commitment the day you came to him, if he judged you sincere (meaning your end is good), he will then give you his holy spirit as a pledge or guarantee that you will never be lost or lose your salvation because it's once. So with that holy spirit, all the time you will fall or failed or run away from God, the holy spirit will make you really really uncomfortable until you get your OWN FREE DECISION (human responsibility and free determination) to return. And since he gave you that holy spirit you may momentarily rebell but the holy spirit will finish by overcome your foolishness. That what the Holy spirit is all about, otherwise they shouldn't have any reason to provide holy spirit to all Christ true believers. With the holy spirit, you will never and ever lose your once salvation.
The holy spirit in you will teach you both your predestination and your free determination, telling you that you have been chosen and elected by God before you born_which is a great privilege_ to reign with him over angels in the heaven, not by your effort or goods but by pure grace so do not get fool of yourself but humiliate yourself before him and do not fold your arms, shows your gracefullyness to the Lord by making yourself clean, honor him by your free will to serve him, God will never forsake you even you failed somewhere he will rescue you to reach that goal witch is first his own goal, But you 've gotta remember that as now God son, I will sometimes beat you to correct you but not for killing you, so love my correction and reminder.
So sometimes the holy spirit will come to encourage you telling you.that you are predestined for eternal life, but sometimes he will come to you with a message of remind saying that "IF" you don't change I will let you down: that IF or "let u down" doesn't mean send you to the hell, it means I will give you all kind of punishment to trouble you until you repent. That is what he is telling one church in the book of revelation that most people do not understand the holy spirit language: because I gave you an once salvation, I will make sure by your own free will or by force, that you will comply with the criteria of that salvation. If you comply and coorperate by your own will freely and entirely, I will bless you and reward you by raptured you at the rapture of the spouse of Christ and you will escape the calamity to come in the world but if you don't cooperate enough and do not sanctify by your own will, I will force you hardly to do so, I will let Satan destroy your finance, job, your BODY(not your soul as with job) meaning you will go to the great tribulation and suffer until you get back to me and I will open my arms to you. By the way, if you do not cooperate enough he has a lot of tools to break you down in order to bring you back in. Why? Because the possibility of taking back your salvation is a non started. That possibility is not the bible teaching. And according to the way you coorperate with him, you may be awarded to get raptured or be saved through the great tribulation. Not everyone saved will be raptured, some will go to the great tribulation. Not everyone saved will have a successful life in this world, that depend to the way you are serious and coparate. Not everyone saved will get the same reward in the heaven, that is related to how did you behaviored during your salvation earth time.

So the holy spirit is the pledge that ensures that the salvation cannot be lost, because it's a power that no man or evil can overcome no matter how he resists him.
So the predestination it's not a song or just a knowledge but it's a God free gift of the holy spirit that will encourage the one who get it to persevere or to break him down and overcome him all the time he sins in order to bring him back on the track. And remember: There is no power that can resist the holy spirit, not even human free decision, he will break it down and the resist person will finish by crying as a baby before God for forgiveness.

In short, the predestination is FORCING SOMEONE SALVATION NOT JUST THROUGH A KNOWLEDGE OF A PREDESTINATION TEACHING BUT MORE. TROUGH A HOLY SPIRIT THAT GARANTEE THAT HE WILL BREAK THE RECEIVER DOWN ALL THE TIME HE WILL FALL OR TRY TO LEAVE. IT'S NOT A GARANTEE TO FOLD ONE'S ARMS BUT TO FORCE YOU TO KEEP FOLLOW JESUS.
That is where predestination and free determination meet: Yes you are predestined, yes your salvation will never lost, but you will receive the holy spirit that will GARANTEE that salvation through forcing you to FREELY DETERMINE YOUR OWN SALVATION, He will make sure by his power that you cannot overcome that, most of time, you will make a good decision by yourself to save yourself by following Jesus and the sound doctrine.
So you free determined yourself in your salvation but when u realize how you stand by God way, then you realize that without the holy spirit that free determination shouldn't even be possible and then you become graceful to God And he then reply to your gracefullyness that I gave you the holy spirit because I choosed you before you born, so the only way I can make sure that you will not be lost after choosing you is to give you my holy spirit so he will break you down in order to bring you back to the track all the time you failed and forces you to make the good free human determination.

So this is the bible teaching: Predestination is not the opposite of the free human determination from the point of view of the bible teaching. They work together. They are not incompatibles as some try to see it.

So the main question is did u receive from God the holy spirit when you repented? The bible say do not waste your time, if you don't have the holy spirit, that force that teach you the truth then overcome all your decisions by forcing you to all the time make a good free human determination, then you don't belong to God. Now how do I know I have the holy spirit? Multiple test: - being in the sound doctrine of apostles not in false Christianity. You may feel all kind of holy spirit presence but if your doctrine or teaching is incorrect from what apostles though (like this one teaching salvation may be lost) you don't have it at all.
- deeply love and like the God word, do not lock yourself up from any bible teaching, but discern what's truth.
- joining a worship group of Christ believers in your town that believe what u know as truth. If you feel no need joining brothers you may verify the kind of holy spirit you think have. He doesn't act like that.
- believe in Jesus that if he did noy die for u you should go to the hell
- have a feeling of pray and sometime when the feeling is lost, you feel condemnation an the need to force yourself as sacrifice. There no holy spirit that will let you quiet if you do not pray deeply to Jesus at least 1 hour a day. You may not do it some days but you will feel like uncomfortable or missing something or condamning yourself.
- the holy spirit will certify to your spirit when you listen to pastors preaching that you belong to God because you don't resist him, you always finish by bow down before the Word.
- you have an unsatisfying hungry or testy of being holy for Jesus, not being a good man but being good man for Jesus.
- you all the time cannot forget the day that you gave sincerely your life to Jesus, the day you decided that this is it, I'm done, I accept to dye with Christ in his cross and ressurect with him to leave for ever a new life. If you don't know that unforgettable day of your life no matter how many years passed, you did not meat him at all.
- got baptised in a river(not pool) in the name of Jesus _not in the name of Father, son and holy spirit_ and have been imposed hands by true pastors that day. As Jesus and apostles did, you are not special at all to avoid water and get salvation anyway. Your refuse of doing so may be just an external sign that you don't have the holy spirit or you're not yet convinced but will be later on.

If you're not sincere when you repented God knows even you may not know yourself because the man doesn't know himself good enough that God do (remember: for salvation, in the second one of our repentance, God look at our end, end of our faith or life but not at the beginning of our faith, sincerity or repentance while we just look at our beginning and think we are sincere enough. You may empress yourself but not God who look at your end so he may call your sincerity a temporary one).
So the day you come sincerely before him he then at that moment will look at your end and may found out that your present sincere repentance is not sincere at all and see in advance how you will batry him like judas his disciple did. If I found out that your beginning is sincere but your end is Barry him for the pleasures of this world, he will not make any mistake to give you his holy spirit at the time of your "sincere" repentance, He doesn't trust you because he knows you before you born that you're not trustworthy, when the temptation will come you will leave. So you may experiment momentarily some adventure with the holy spirit thinking that you have it and you are once saved when you are not really. That why some theological schools falsely teach that that person was saved then he got lost and he lost his salvation whileThe reality is he never got saved. What make someone not saved thinking he is? It's the fact he refers to his own sincerety at the beginning of his faith and not paying attention at his end.
Are you saved when you repented? Yes! Ok if it's yes, the saved never get back, so we will found out later on, at the end of your life, that you really was telling the true about your salvation. We cannot found it out before you dye. That why the bible say do not judge before the end of time, just see what someone is saying about his salvation, trust him as long as he stand, if he fall hope he will be back on track and pray for him until the end of his days then you may make a pre judgment that what he was saying about his once salvation was right. The bible says better the end of something than his beginning. So yes the salvation is once but not everyone who claims it have it no matter how sincere he is during his faith life. Those who are once saved they will have no way to get ride of that salvation so they will remain in the faith till the end. So IT'S THE END THAT WILL JUSTIFY THE BEGINNING NOT BECAUSE THAT WE GET THE SALVATION AT THE END BUT BECAUSE WE GOT THIS ONCE SALVATION AT THE BEGINNING AND BECAUSE IT'S ONCE, WE WILL KEEP THE FAITH UNTIL THE END NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF TEMPTATION OR TROUBLE. This what the apostle peter was trying to say when he said nothing will separate us from Christ, whatever temptation we will stand because we got saved once at the beginning and there is no other possibilities to run away from God. How can we overcome his holy spirit power that he gave us? What is the purpose of giving us the holy spirit if we will be may lose our salvation?
The holy spirit doesn't do thinks for you or make decision for you, he just advice you in the language that your soul understand and your heart cannot resist longer to his call. When come to force you, he doesn't force you directly against your will, but he forces you indirectly by all kinds of his tools to make you convinced then you freely do it yourself as your own decision and determination and you are convinced that you have to do that for your own good and for the glory or Lord Jesus. So now you will see in your progress the predestination, the once salvation, the holy spirit, the God grace and your own free determination gathered together to make you saved. Just one of these things cannot do that, all have to be there to make it happened. So predestination is not incompatible with free human determination. Both are bible sound doctrine of apostles and prophets. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THERE TO NEVER LET YOU BACK( no matter what your will is) but HE WILL NOT FORCE YOU DIRECTLY LIKE DOING THINGS IN YOUR PLACE, BUT HE WILL MAKE YOU COORPERATE WITH HIM AND PUSHING YOU TAKING GOOD DECISION SO YOU WILL, AT THE END HAVING THESE BOTH CONCLUSION: MY SALVATION IS A GOD GIFT THAT NOTHING CAN TAKE IT OFF ANYMORE. MY SALVATION DEPEND ON ME AND ME ALONE, IF I MAKE A BAD MOVE I MAY LOSE IT. SO I HAVE TO WORK HARD TO MAKE GOOD DECISIONS. this conclusion is a contradiction only in someone who have not the holy spirit or has not enough knowledge yet.

By the way, for those who still don't believe the predestination I have a question:
- does God knows things that happened the same moment cnn learn it, the same moment president Trump knows it, the same time Pentagon or via knows that?
- if he knows before them, then we've gotta know how early he knew that? 1, 2, 1000 years ago or since eternity?
- If it since eternity, how he knew that? Because he made them up. So to those who oppose predestination, are you telling us that even God doesn't know how many people will be saved and lost until now? Will he be surprised? If he doesn't know so why he gave the number that only 8 people were saved at Noah time?
How believe in a God that doesn't know something, did not created good and evil, so the evil came by himself to the live?
The faith in God is incompatible with the dinying of the predestination. Let's respect the scriptures: there are plenty proofs of bible preaching predestination as well free human determination.

Some pastors don't want teach predestination fearing that people will start sinning...They forget that it's God himself that said let the one who clean make himself more clean. And let unclean people become more unclean, do not impeach anyone. Since I knew the truth about predestination I become more sanctify than before. So do not retain the truth please
 





phipps

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#11
You're quoting out of context, and leaving out the comparative verses that serve to clarify-- it is false teaching, phipps.

In Hebrews 3, for example, you left this out--

And to whom did He swear that they shall not enter into His rest, if not to those having disobeyed?

And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

UNBELIEF is a failure to accept the Grace offered-- it is NOT backsliding. Quit with the nonsensical copy/paste that calls God a liar, and quote properly the WHOLE passage.
Backsliding means someone stopped believing either partially or completely. Either way they have to come back to Christ. Jesus doesn't do lukewarm or completely cold. You are either with Him or against Him. You may be backslidden, but while you are backslidden and not walking with God, you are lost. 1 John 2:3, Now by this we know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He who says I know Him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him. But whoever keeps his word, truly, the love of God is perfected in Him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who he says he abides in the Lord ought to walk as He walked.”

"1 Corinthians 2, “By which you were also saved if you hold fast to that word that I preach to you and lest you believe in vain.” He says you are saved if you hold fast. We must choose to hang on. There is no other other way to be saved than to overcome like Jesus did.

I post what I understand and know and I will continue doing that and if don't like it, you can quit reading my posts. Exercise your free will not to read my posts okay!
 





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phipps

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#12
Aligning bible verses and make them sound reasonables is not necessarily what the bible means by preaching the truth since you have to have the holy spirit and be mandate by GOD to teach the bible in order to understand the subtlety or fineness of the bible doctrine.
This guy have just aligned verses and make them sound great but his conclusion is just the opposite of the sound doctrine:
1. Sometimes the bible sound in some points like contradiction: this contradiction is just the difficulty that human has to understand the God word. And we have to accept this "contradiction" as a way to say both assertions are right: let's put things in that way:

- Yes the predestination is scriptural and it's the bible doctrine, you have to accept it as part of the bible or reject the entire bible.
- Yes the man effort or free determination to accept or reject the salvation is also bible doctrine, you have to accept it or reject the entire bible.
Between the predestination and the free determination, there is a bridge to unite them not to separate them and that bridge is the SINCERITY in your faith.
From day one God knows if you're sincere when you came to him or not and while you judge yourself at the moment your came sincerely to him, but he at the contrary judge you by seeing your end because he can see from day one your end and knows how you are going to end up in your faith. So according to what he is seeing at your end, not your beginning, he will judge you whever sincere or not sincere. If he judges you sincere and trustworthy, that Sincerity doesn't means you will not fall in sin or will never get fatigue in your faith. SINCERITY means whatever you will abandon him in some moment of your life, but you will not end up in that position, you Will repent. So he knows you, he trust you and knows you love him and will never forsake him at the end even if you will have some hard time. In this position, the day one you come to him, he will once save you, give you the once eternal life that will never be retaken again.
HOW THE ONCE SALVATION WORKS AND WHY IT'S REALLY ONCE? Ended, after his judgment of the SINCERITY of your commitment the day you came to him, if he judged you sincere (meaning your end is good), he will then give you his holy spirit as a pledge or guarantee that you will never be lost or lose your salvation because it's once. So with that holy spirit, all the time you will fall or failed or run away from God, the holy spirit will make you really really uncomfortable until you get your OWN FREE DECISION (human responsibility and free determination) to return. And since he gave you that holy spirit you may momentarily rebell but the holy spirit will finish by overcome your foolishness. That what the Holy spirit is all about, otherwise they shouldn't have any reason to provide holy spirit to all Christ true believers. With the holy spirit, you will never and ever lose your once salvation.
The holy spirit in you will teach you both your predestination and your free determination, telling you that you have been chosen and elected by God before you born_which is a great privilege_ to reign with him over angels in the heaven, not by your effort or goods but by pure grace so do not get fool of yourself but humiliate yourself before him and do not fold your arms, shows your gracefullyness to the Lord by making yourself clean, honor him by your free will to serve him, God will never forsake you even you failed somewhere he will rescue you to reach that goal witch is first his own goal, But you 've gotta remember that as now God son, I will sometimes beat you to correct you but not for killing you, so love my correction and reminder.
So sometimes the holy spirit will come to encourage you telling you.that you are predestined for eternal life, but sometimes he will come to you with a message of remind saying that "IF" you don't change I will let you down: that IF or "let u down" doesn't mean send you to the hell, it means I will give you all kind of punishment to trouble you until you repent. That is what he is telling one church in the book of revelation that most people do not understand the holy spirit language: because I gave you an once salvation, I will make sure by your own free will or by force, that you will comply with the criteria of that salvation. If you comply and coorperate by your own will freely and entirely, I will bless you and reward you by raptured you at the rapture of the spouse of Christ and you will escape the calamity to come in the world but if you don't cooperate enough and do not sanctify by your own will, I will force you hardly to do so, I will let Satan destroy your finance, job, your BODY(not your soul as with job) meaning you will go to the great tribulation and suffer until you get back to me and I will open my arms to you. By the way, if you do not cooperate enough he has a lot of tools to break you down in order to bring you back in. Why? Because the possibility of taking back your salvation is a non started. That possibility is not the bible teaching. And according to the way you coorperate with him, you may be awarded to get raptured or be saved through the great tribulation. Not everyone saved will be raptured, some will go to the great tribulation. Not everyone saved will have a successful life in this world, that depend to the way you are serious and coparate. Not everyone saved will get the same reward in the heaven, that is related to how did you behaviored during your salvation earth time.

So the holy spirit is the pledge that ensures that the salvation cannot be lost, because it's a power that no man or evil can overcome no matter how he resists him.
So the predestination it's not a song or just a knowledge but it's a God free gift of the holy spirit that will encourage the one who get it to persevere or to break him down and overcome him all the time he sins in order to bring him back on the track. And remember: There is no power that can resist the holy spirit, not even human free decision, he will break it down and the resist person will finish by crying as a baby before God for forgiveness.

In short, the predestination is FORCING SOMEONE SALVATION NOT JUST THROUGH A KNOWLEDGE OF A PREDESTINATION TEACHING BUT MORE. TROUGH A HOLY SPIRIT THAT GARANTEE THAT HE WILL BREAK THE RECEIVER DOWN ALL THE TIME HE WILL FALL OR TRY TO LEAVE. IT'S NOT A GARANTEE TO FOLD ONE'S ARMS BUT TO FORCE YOU TO KEEP FOLLOW JESUS.
That is where predestination and free determination meet: Yes you are predestined, yes your salvation will never lost, but you will receive the holy spirit that will GARANTEE that salvation through forcing you to FREELY DETERMINE YOUR OWN SALVATION, He will make sure by his power that you cannot overcome that, most of time, you will make a good decision by yourself to save yourself by following Jesus and the sound doctrine.
So you free determined yourself in your salvation but when u realize how you stand by God way, then you realize that without the holy spirit that free determination shouldn't even be possible and then you become graceful to God And he then reply to your gracefullyness that I gave you the holy spirit because I choosed you before you born, so the only way I can make sure that you will not be lost after choosing you is to give you my holy spirit so he will break you down in order to bring you back to the track all the time you failed and forces you to make the good free human determination.

So this is the bible teaching: Predestination is not the opposite of the free human determination from the point of view of the bible teaching. They work together. They are not incompatibles as some try to see it.

So the main question is did u receive from God the holy spirit when you repented? The bible say do not waste your time, if you don't have the holy spirit, that force that teach you the truth then overcome all your decisions by forcing you to all the time make a good free human determination, then you don't belong to God. Now how do I know I have the holy spirit? Multiple test: - being in the sound doctrine of apostles not in false Christianity. You may feel all kind of holy spirit presence but if your doctrine or teaching is incorrect from what apostles though (like this one teaching salvation may be lost) you don't have it at all.
- deeply love and like the God word, do not lock yourself up from any bible teaching, but discern what's truth.
- joining a worship group of Christ believers in your town that believe what u know as truth. If you feel no need joining brothers you may verify the kind of holy spirit you think have. He doesn't act like that.
- believe in Jesus that if he did noy die for u you should go to the hell
- have a feeling of pray and sometime when the feeling is lost, you feel condemnation an the need to force yourself as sacrifice. There no holy spirit that will let you quiet if you do not pray deeply to Jesus at least 1 hour a day. You may not do it some days but you will feel like uncomfortable or missing something or condamning yourself.
- the holy spirit will certify to your spirit when you listen to pastors preaching that you belong to God because you don't resist him, you always finish by bow down before the Word.
- you have an unsatisfying hungry or testy of being holy for Jesus, not being a good man but being good man for Jesus.
- you all the time cannot forget the day that you gave sincerely your life to Jesus, the day you decided that this is it, I'm done, I accept to dye with Christ in his cross and ressurect with him to leave for ever a new life. If you don't know that unforgettable day of your life no matter how many years passed, you did not meat him at all.
- got baptised in a river(not pool) in the name of Jesus _not in the name of Father, son and holy spirit_ and have been imposed hands by true pastors that day. As Jesus and apostles did, you are not special at all to avoid water and get salvation anyway. Your refuse of doing so may be just an external sign that you don't have the holy spirit or you're not yet convinced but will be later on.

If you're not sincere when you repented God knows even you may not know yourself because the man doesn't know himself good enough that God do (remember: for salvation, in the second one of our repentance, God look at our end, end of our faith or life but not at the beginning of our faith, sincerity or repentance while we just look at our beginning and think we are sincere enough. You may empress yourself but not God who look at your end so he may call your sincerity a temporary one).
So the day you come sincerely before him he then at that moment will look at your end and may found out that your present sincere repentance is not sincere at all and see in advance how you will batry him like judas his disciple did. If I found out that your beginning is sincere but your end is Barry him for the pleasures of this world, he will not make any mistake to give you his holy spirit at the time of your "sincere" repentance, He doesn't trust you because he knows you before you born that you're not trustworthy, when the temptation will come you will leave. So you may experiment momentarily some adventure with the holy spirit thinking that you have it and you are once saved when you are not really. That why some theological schools falsely teach that that person was saved then he got lost and he lost his salvation whileThe reality is he never got saved. What make someone not saved thinking he is? It's the fact he refers to his own sincerety at the beginning of his faith and not paying attention at his end.
Are you saved when you repented? Yes! Ok if it's yes, the saved never get back, so we will found out later on, at the end of your life, that you really was telling the true about your salvation. We cannot found it out before you dye. That why the bible say do not judge before the end of time, just see what someone is saying about his salvation, trust him as long as he stand, if he fall hope he will be back on track and pray for him until the end of his days then you may make a pre judgment that what he was saying about his once salvation was right. The bible says better the end of something than his beginning. So yes the salvation is once but not everyone who claims it have it no matter how sincere he is during his faith life. Those who are once saved they will have no way to get ride of that salvation so they will remain in the faith till the end. So IT'S THE END THAT WILL JUSTIFY THE BEGINNING NOT BECAUSE THAT WE GET THE SALVATION AT THE END BUT BECAUSE WE GOT THIS ONCE SALVATION AT THE BEGINNING AND BECAUSE IT'S ONCE, WE WILL KEEP THE FAITH UNTIL THE END NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF TEMPTATION OR TROUBLE. This what the apostle peter was trying to say when he said nothing will separate us from Christ, whatever temptation we will stand because we got saved once at the beginning and there is no other possibilities to run away from God. How can we overcome his holy spirit power that he gave us? What is the purpose of giving us the holy spirit if we will be may lose our salvation?
The holy spirit doesn't do thinks for you or make decision for you, he just advice you in the language that your soul understand and your heart cannot resist longer to his call. When come to force you, he doesn't force you directly against your will, but he forces you indirectly by all kinds of his tools to make you convinced then you freely do it yourself as your own decision and determination and you are convinced that you have to do that for your own good and for the glory or Lord Jesus. So now you will see in your progress the predestination, the once salvation, the holy spirit, the God grace and your own free determination gathered together to make you saved. Just one of these things cannot do that, all have to be there to make it happened. So predestination is not incompatible with free human determination. Both are bible sound doctrine of apostles and prophets. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THERE TO NEVER LET YOU BACK( no matter what your will is) but HE WILL NOT FORCE YOU DIRECTLY LIKE DOING THINGS IN YOUR PLACE, BUT HE WILL MAKE YOU COORPERATE WITH HIM AND PUSHING YOU TAKING GOOD DECISION SO YOU WILL, AT THE END HAVING THESE BOTH CONCLUSION: MY SALVATION IS A GOD GIFT THAT NOTHING CAN TAKE IT OFF ANYMORE. MY SALVATION DEPEND ON ME AND ME ALONE, IF I MAKE A BAD MOVE I MAY LOSE IT. SO I HAVE TO WORK HARD TO MAKE GOOD DECISIONS. this conclusion is a contradiction only in someone who have not the holy spirit or has not enough knowledge yet.

By the way, for those who still don't believe the predestination I have a question:
- does God knows things that happened the same moment cnn learn it, the same moment president Trump knows it, the same time Pentagon or via knows that?
- if he knows before them, then we've gotta know how early he knew that? 1, 2, 1000 years ago or since eternity?
- If it since eternity, how he knew that? Because he made them up. So to those who oppose predestination, are you telling us that even God doesn't know how many people will be saved and lost until now? Will he be surprised? If he doesn't know so why he gave the number that only 8 people were saved at Noah time?
How believe in a God that doesn't know something, did not created good and evil, so the evil came by himself to the live?
The faith in God is incompatible with the dinying of the predestination. Let's respect the scriptures: there are plenty proofs of bible preaching predestination as well free human determination.

Some pastors don't want teach predestination fearing that people will start sinning...They forget that it's God himself that said let the one who clean make himself more clean. And let unclean people become more unclean, do not impeach anyone. Since I knew the truth about predestination I become more sanctify than before. So do not retain the truth please
The teaching of once saved always saved is not biblical. People can fall from salvation and have done. Hosea 11:7, "And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him." There are different kinds of backsliding. There are those like king Saul who were genuinely converted, filled the with the spirit and backslid. The Bible says he was one of the prophets. God gave him a new heart. All of the language of genuine conversion is used, chosen by the Lord, spirit-filled by God, prophet of God, victorious in battle. Read I Samuel 10-14, 19. All the earmarks of success, total, genuine, pure conversion. But he backslid and he was lost. Then there are those like king Manasseh, who backslide and it's not technically real backsliding. They're in the church all their lives. Their parents are in the church. They're surrounded with church trappings and religion, but they've never been converted. And they turn their back on it. Some of us call that backsliding. But technically, you can't backslide if you've never been there. They like Manasseh have been raised with the religious trappings. And out of habit, go through all of the rituals of religion. But they've never had the new heart. And one day, they turn their backs completely on it and go to the world.

Saul, though genuinely converted, was ultimately lost. Manasseh, though never converted at the beginning, and backslid totally from the Lord, was ultimately saved. Both kinds of "backsliding" need Christ. Whether our hearts were converted and we backslid or whether our hearts were never converted we need to reconcile with Christ.1 Corinthians 10:12, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Everybody needs to be careful because anybody can fall.

If we don't want to fall, the Bible tells us that whoever abides in Him sinneth not. How do we have a victorious life? Abide in Christ. As we stay in Him and in the principles of truth, you start bearing the fruits of His spirit and then we can know we are saved. John 15:1-3, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

Galatians 5:22-24, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

While it is true that once we are saved, it does not mean that we can never be lost. It is also true that once we are saved, we can live with security in our relationship with the Lord. When we trust and love the Lord and place our live in His hands, we know that He is going to lead us. But it is an ongoing relationship. Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing that he who has begun a good work in you will complete it into the day of Christ.” When we come to the Lord, we are giving Him permission to work in us. Will He do what we ask Him to do? Hebrews 12:2, “Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.”


Predestination.

Can a computer love? Love must be a choice. We choose to love God. If we have been preprogrammed by God ahead of time, if God arbitrarily decided who the elect are, who is predestined, and says I am going to wire this one so they are saved and I am not going to wire this one, it is like a factory that is deliberately putting out defective material. Is that not what it would amount to? If God is in advance deciding that He is going to poorly wire some of our computers so that we are prone to sin and we cannot be saved, He becomes an accomplice for the death of those who will go to hell and be lost eternally. The idea that God is willing that some perish is a false teaching. And yet you believe it. What you're implying is Jesus pre-meditated the eternal death of some from before He created the world. Does that really fall in line with His character? Think about it will you?

Does God just want to save a few or everybody, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, whosoever will. This is good in the sight of God, our savior, who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” Who does he want to be saved? All men.

2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish.” How many does He want to perish? None. Whosoever believes will not perish. He is not willing that any should perish. If we perish, it is not His will. Do you get that?

Why did Jesus come into this world? John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

There would be no point to Jesus dying on the cross for our sins because He would already know who would and wouldn't be saved. What would be the point of the moral law? Whether the chosen ones break the law or not they are still saved. The wages of sin wouldn't be death for them.

The predestination message is not biblical full stop.
 





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#13
The teaching of once saved always saved is not biblical. People can fall from salvation and have done. Hosea 11:7, "And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him." There are different kinds of backsliding. There are those like king Saul who were genuinely converted, filled the with the spirit and backslid. The Bible says he was one of the prophets. God gave him a new heart. All of the language of genuine conversion is used, chosen by the Lord, spirit-filled by God, prophet of God, victorious in battle. Read I Samuel 10-14, 19. All the earmarks of success, total, genuine, pure conversion. But he backslid and he was lost. Then there are those like king Manasseh, who backslide and it's not technically real backsliding. They're in the church all their lives. Their parents are in the church. They're surrounded with church trappings and religion, but they've never been converted. And they turn their back on it. Some of us call that backsliding. But technically, you can't backslide if you've never been there. They like Manasseh have been raised with the religious trappings. And out of habit, go through all of the rituals of religion. But they've never had the new heart. And one day, they turn their backs completely on it and go to the world.

Saul, though genuinely converted, was ultimately lost. Manasseh, though never converted at the beginning, and backslid totally from the Lord, was ultimately saved. Both kinds of "backsliding" need Christ. Whether our hearts were converted and we backslid or whether our hearts were never converted we need to reconcile with Christ.1 Corinthians 10:12, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Everybody needs to be careful because anybody can fall.

If we don't want to fall, the Bible tells us that whoever abides in Him sinneth not. How do we have a victorious life? Abide in Christ. As we stay in Him and in the principles of truth, you start bearing the fruits of His spirit and then we can know we are saved. John 15:1-3, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

Galatians 5:22-24, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

While it is true that once we are saved, it does not mean that we can never be lost. It is also true that once we are saved, we can live with security in our relationship with the Lord. When we trust and love the Lord and place our live in His hands, we know that He is going to lead us. But it is an ongoing relationship. Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing that he who has begun a good work in you will complete it into the day of Christ.” When we come to the Lord, we are giving Him permission to work in us. Will He do what we ask Him to do? Hebrews 12:2, “Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.”


Predestination.

Can a computer love? Love must be a choice. We choose to love God. If we have been preprogrammed by God ahead of time, if God arbitrarily decided who the elect are, who is predestined, and says I am going to wire this one so they are saved and I am not going to wire this one, it is like a factory that is deliberately putting out defective material. Is that not what it would amount to? If God is in advance deciding that He is going to poorly wire some of our computers so that we are prone to sin and we cannot be saved, He becomes an accomplice for the death of those who will go to hell and be lost eternally. The idea that God is willing that some perish is a false teaching. And yet you believe it. What you're implying is Jesus pre-meditated the eternal death of some from before He created the world. Does that really fall in line with His character? Think about it will you?

Does God just want to save a few or everybody, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, whosoever will. This is good in the sight of God, our savior, who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” Who does he want to be saved? All men.

2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish.” How many does He want to perish? None. Whosoever believes will not perish. He is not willing that any should perish. If we perish, it is not His will. Do you get that?

Why did Jesus come into this world? John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

There would be no point to Jesus dying on the cross for our sins because He would already know who would and wouldn't be saved. What would be the point of the moral law? Whether the chosen ones break the law or not they are still saved. The wages of sin wouldn't be death for them.

The predestination message is not biblical full stop.
You're citing the Old Testament?
 





phipps

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#14
Falling Away

Once you have accepted Jesus into your life, is it possible to fall away? Consider Jesus’ parable of the sower, which describes the gospel seed being spread on different types of soil. Notice what happens when the truth falls onto one type of heart:

Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away (Matthew 13:5, 6).

Now, if the seed “immediately sprang up,” it means these people welcomed it into their hearts. They believed what they heard, and the seed sprouted. Thus, if it “withered away,” something that was once living had died. That means some people who have received salvation at some point lost it because they did not grow deeper roots in Christ.

A Bible example of someone who was chosen by God and even Spirit-filled, but then fell away, was king Saul. He was not picked through a general election, but was chosen by God. Did the Lord choose Saul to make an example of him and then cast him away? No! God chose this Benjamite because he was the Lord’s choice. At first Saul was filled with the Spirit and even prophesied, but he allowed pride to spring up in his heart, grieved away the Holy Spirit, and then lost his salvation.

Judas was one of Jesus’ twelve disciples. When Christ sent him out to preach the gospel (along with seventy others), they all came back to report, “Even the demons are subject to us in Your name” (Luke 10:17). Judas was certainly among this group of successful evangelists and was used by the Lord to witness to others.

We sometimes picture Judas as going around constantly rubbing his hands together with evil delight, trying to steal other people’s money. When Judas joined the disciples, his heart had been touched by the teachings of Christ. His intentions were good, yet he eventually allowed his own opinions to guide him more than the teachings of Jesus. Slowly he began to resist the Saviour's plans because he felt he knew better and he eventually fell away. Stories of people like Judas, Saul, Balaam, and others are given to us “as examples, and they were written for our admonition” (1 Corinthians 10:11) so that we would not follow in their ways.

Jesus makes it clear in His message to the church of Sardis that if the people did not repent and turn from their bad behaviour, they would lose their salvation. “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels” (Revelation 3:5).
 





phipps

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#15
You Are Chosen

What then does it mean to be “God’s elect”? (Titus 1:1). The Greek word for elect, eklektoi, means “chosen ones” or “picked out.” I once heard a minister explain that election means that God has cast His vote for you, the devil has voted against you, and you have the tie-breaking vote. Everyone is called to follow the Lord, but not all respond. When Jesus told the parable of the wedding feast, He described how many of the initial guests made excuses and didn’t come. So the king told his servants to “go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding” (Matthew 22:9). God has not invited a select few to receive the gospel invitation. He wants as many as possible to enter the kingdom. Jesus ended this story by explaining, “For many are called, but few are chosen” (verse 14).

God’s elect are those who respond to His call. Those who heed the Lord’s bidding are the chosen ones, but everyone is given the call. The message is to go “to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people” (Revelation 14:6), but not everyone will accept the invitation. Some will even turn to God but then will turn away. “The Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith” (1 Timothy 4:1). How can you depart from the faith unless you were first in the faith?

The doctrine of predestination, as taught by Calvin, is dangerous because it gives people a false sense of security. Paul warned, “I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:1, 2,). The word “if” suggests that ongoing faith is a condition for our salvation. If we do not hold fast, we are believing in vain.

By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked (1 John 2:3–6).

When you have an abiding trust in Jesus, you can know that you are a child of God and that He will finish what He began in your life. “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

We can have the assurance of salvation if we keep our eyes on Christ and hold fast to His Word. But if we believe that once we accept Jesus we can turn away from Him and still be saved, we are swallowing an artificial gospel that could leave us with great disappointment.
 





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#17
if you're a true born again Christian, you cannot lose salvation. how can you lose something you never earned? why doesn't God just kill or rapture once you've obtained salvation? it's ridiculous to maintain salvation after having obtained it. You are SEALED until the day of redemption. It's DONE!.... salvation is not a progress.

if someone claimed to be born again Christian, then 10 years later converted to Chrislam, they were NEVER saved to begin with. They didn't "lose" salvation, they just never had it.

btw, this verse;
"He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:13

Is talking about IF the believer can endure THROUGH the tribulation, their FLESH shall be saved.... mean they will never tasted death.
Saved here is not talking about salvation but rather physically saved from being kill or dying a natural death.

For example, Peter asking Jesus to save him...he's not calling upon the name of the Lord asking for salvation.

Matthew 14:30 King James Version (KJV)
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
 





peridot

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#18
I've heard these arguments before, and all of you have gone through great lengths to show your points. So, this was going to be short, but....

Salvation is controlled by God alone. If that is true, NO ONE else controls it.
If this is NOT true, you are by default saying God is not in control of something in His creation.
And if He's not control of His creation, what ELSE is He not in control of?
And if He is not in control, what is He the God of exactly? (I got some great norse, roman, and greek stories for you...)

Human free will is not absolute (show me what verses you have for that if you have them)
-- you are free to chose, but you will always chose according to your nature and limitations.
Now because of that whole business with the two naked people, a piece fruit and a sneaky serpent,
none of use have the ability to always chose good unaided.
(romans 1:18 -31 and romans 3:9-18 -- and that's EVERYONE, not just the "bad ones", or more correctly we are ALL the "bad ones")

if you have no ability to good the good of God's Salvation, God Himself must change you so that
1) you want it and 2) you "chose" it.

Complacency, lack of growth, and lack of response is the signs of an unregenerate person, PERIOD.
Christians believers grow and show definite signs of the seed planted.
Make-believers are not christians, but often have been in church long enough to play the game and sound convincing.

I also understand that we can see people that really looked "saved" and then have them turn away. The "standard" answer for that is "they were never christians in the first place because real christians don't leave." That's sounds very "convenient," but is still true. Remember that being a Christian isn't just believing truth about Jesus; it's also obeying and committing yourself to it no matter what, even and especially when you'd much rather do something different.
Satan's theology is not only better than every christian you know, remember that rascal SAW GOD in person. But like many of these "seems like a christian to me" folks, when faced with his spat with GOD, he want to BE GOD instead of bowing to the real one. So he dumped the real one for his own conceits; sound familiar?
Let me help:

I used to be a pastor, until those *(*(*!!@# people started (pick your favorite offense).
I used to believe in GOD until he let/made/didn't stop my mother/brother/?? from dying/something else awful.
I could NEVER believe in a GOD who (did something that bible clearly states He actually does).
I used to be a Christian, then I got edu-macated (and figured I knew more than all christians, the bible, and God himself), and either switched religions, or became an atheist.
I just wasn't interested anymore...(wow, got bored with an INFINITE GOD? that takes skill, or just sin...)
(Pick your favorite sin) was just to good to pass up; had to bounce.

God WAS great until He did something that someone didn't like.
Then they reverted back to their preferred ultimate deity -- the one that did what THEY wanted it to do.
But that's not something someone else (and often your own self) can usually see until after the fact.
 





peridot

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#19
There is a great video series called "What's So Amazing About Grace."
It gives some really well illustrated examples of this.

phipps, I heard a decidedly "anti-calvinist" bent to your argument.
I get it. But but here's the thing: Who's in control?
This is neither calvinistic or armenian: this is a conclusion to your topic.
If humans have control, God doesn't.
If God has control, humans don't.
 





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#20
For me, its a daily battle. Even though I love god and would give my life for him, I still have to fight to not give in to temptation or say something bad to someone out of anger or things like that. Its constant, of course you can lose where you stand with God, most do. The important thing is to come back and apologize. If you really mean it, he will forgive, he knows its not easy being human.