Once Saved Always Saved?

[Lisa]

Yes...believing God is capable of fulfilling his will and having faith in how awesome God is that none will be lost for eternity is down right horrible! And experiencing God delivering me from the power of sin and the blessings that come with that has been down right unbearable! LOL! Whatever helps you sleep at night, Lisa!

You are talking lies here Todd, but maybe that does help you sleep at night?

 

[Vytas]

Romans 9:21
We all made from the same clay and results are sadly different. What you even try to imply here ? That God forces us to sin ? If this verse supports your beliefs than Jesus died literally for nothing. What you calvinist now ? or you gather what you can get and ask no questions ?

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Isa 64:9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

There seems to be some strange actions done by "we" i doubt all humanity applies here

Exodus 4:11
God is saying same thing he says in Job at the end, he makes a point and reminds that he is omnipotent. I agree he is...

Jeremiah 1:4 This must be a mistake i guess ? Yeah some people a chosen for huge works (if they respond). Nobody is chosen to live in sin and be miserable, thats on us.

Lamentations same thing again... this is going nowhere. Honestly i don't see anything that would support your views plainly...Some arguable verses at best... While verses about everlasting punishment for example are pretty straightforward ...

 

[Vytas]

Probaly not very often. I think many of the Christians on this forum are doing a pretty good job of patting themselves on the back, so I don't really see a need to add to it. The reality is that on a dsicussion forum we mainly only observe the doctrine and theology of each other and have very few glimpses of whether that doctrine or theology actually produces good fruit in each individual's life or the people we touch in real life.

Since most of my reasons for entering discussions on this forum are to challenge the mainstream doctrines and theology of organized religion, it is understood why I come across as good at pushing other Christian's buttons. I don't spend much time posting about Christian topics on the forum I agree with.

Button pushing can be a catalyst for inward inspection and re-evaluation of beliefs based on pre-suppostions and indoctrination. So though I don't come trying to intentionally push people's buttons, when I do, I'm not loosing too much sleep over it. Just like I don't loose sleep when others doubt my personal salvation.

I think in most cases good fruits doesn't depend on doctrines, except grand ones.
Well often your posts starts - while other christians do that, im not like them ! My mother used to say "tell me who your friends are and i tell you who you are". I hated to hear it back then. But now i apply it when evaluating people, seems to be working...
Without telling names, how you decide who is indoctrinated ?

 

[Todd]

I think in most cases good fruits doesn't depend on doctrines, except grand ones.
Well often your posts starts - while other christians do that, im not like them ! My mother used to say "tell me who your friends are and i tell you who you are". I hated to hear it back then. But now i apply it when evaluating people, seems to be working...
Without telling names, how you decide who is indoctrinated ?

We all are to some degree or another. I know there are still likely things that I believe from my indoctrination that God has yet to reveal and change. I would hope that every Christian is constantly seeking and asking God to show them where their beliefs are wrong.

The reason there are so many different Christian denominations is because throughout history God showed individuals where church doctrine was not correct. When a faithful servant of God tried to correct the doctrine of the Church and was rejected, either that individual or the few who agreed with him ended up started a new denomination. But history repeats itself and most denominations after starting based on a new revelation from God stay stuck in that revelation and never move on to the next thing God wants to correct and change. The end result is 100's of different sects and denominations, many of which were founded on a fresh revelation and truth from God.

Don't get me wrong there are plenty of mainstream churches that are reaching peole and bringing them closer to God. But the paradigm of institionalized religion is not the only expression of the living Body of Christ. Some of my beliefs prevent me from being fully engaged in a traditional institutionalized church without me pretending to accept things I do not believe. I'm not the type to sit quietly in a church pew and not engage. So rather than cause strife and turmoil in a conventional church organization I have trusted God to open other doors for me to minister and use my gifts. Because of this I have been able to reach a lot of people who would never enter the doors of a conventional church buidling or organization. It doesn't make me better or more important than leaders in the conventional church. It's just what it is.

I come here to share and debate my contrarian views becasue I would expect that people on a consipracy theory website would be more open minded and less prone to stay stuck in the indoctrination of institutionalized religion.

 

[justjess]

I am not using the quote feature for this in hopes that if the full text is plainly visible it might encourage some people to actually read it... I truly wish that hope is not in vein


“Christian Universalism: An Argument Against Fear
Email, RSS Follow9Save
It’s All About “Eternal Hell” vs. “Restorative Love”
In my discussions with fine Christian folks of all stripes from across the world, I have gratefully discovered that most Christians are much more likely to embrace the concepts of Christian Universalism than any of us assumed they’d ever be.

When it comes right down to it, the vast majority of people simply don’t believe in an “eternal” hell. They do still believe in some form of divine judgment, but it is a finite judgement for nearly everyone I’ve asked.

So the question is: if we don’t believe in an “eternal hell”, what do we believe in?

In this article I intend to present some of the basic tenets of Christian Universalism for your consideration.

What is Christian Universalism?
What is Universal Salvation?
What About Judgment?
What is God’s “Refining Fire”?
Is “Right Belief” is a factor for receiving Grace?
Then Why Be a Christian at All?
What Is Our Christian Identity?
What Is The Point of All This?
What is “Christian Universalism”?
Christian Universalism is the set of tenets which holds the following to be true:

All humans are created in God’s image. Therefore we have a common parent in the family of God. (Gen 1:27)
God is in ALL things, and ALL things are from God and belong to God. (Rom 11:36, Eph 4:5-6)
God’s will is to save (heal/restore) all the world. (Jn 3:17)
God is love, and there is no punishment in love. (1 John 4:18)
The actions of God through Yeshua the Anointed absolved “our condition of sin”. (Rom 5:18-19)
God taught us to love our enemies, therefore God must do the same. (Lk 6:27)
Salvation is an unmerited gift from God: it cannot be earned so that no one can claim preference before God. (Eph 2.8)
All is made equal before God, for God (Christ) is in all. (Col 3:11)
All people are now baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13)
In short, Christian Universalists believe that God is one, and there are no other gods but God. (Deut 32:39) God is all powerful, and when God acted through God’s beloved Son, the Word made flesh, Yeshua the Anointed (Christ), he acted once and for all in the name of love and grace for the sake of salvation for all. (Heb 10:8-10, 1 Pt 3:18)

We believe that God is all-powerful and God’s love is irresistible, and that God’s will is for all things to be restored, refined, and reconciled unto God, even evil.

2 Corinthians 5
18. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19. that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Universal Salvation
Universal Salvation is the belief that all people, from all religions or spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) are still loved by God and are saved. Be they Muslim, Hindu, Sufi, Buddhist or pagan, all of God’s Children are saved from the power of everlasting death.

However, for Christian Universalists, we do not believe that this means every religion is created equal, much less are beneficial. Some religions promote individualistic selfish interest, violence, and judgment of the “others” of society. Some branches of Christianity and Islam are guilty of this very perversion.

But we also believe that there are Great Universal Truths inculcated within all of the world’s compassionate religions which promote mercy, forgiveness, community, and humility. We hold these truths to be as inspired as our own traditions and just as relevant in the spiritual journey of humanity.

Of course, as Christian Universalists, we believe that the Word of God was made flesh in the identity of the man, Yeshua of Nazareth. We believe that the nature, will and compassion of God was most fully incarnate and expressed through this man’s life and teachings. Fully human and fully God, The Word and Wisdom of God showed us how to live and love as Children of God. And through the selfless nature of his exemplary death upon the cross, and though his subsequent resurrection, we find proof of God’s immeasurable love for his Children and God’s absolute victory over death.

What About Judgment?
The first instinctive reaction for many people when they hear that “all people are saved” is to assume this means we receive permission to do anything we want cart-blanche and without consequence.

They imagine the Hitlers, and Dahmers, murderers, molesters and abusers of this world getting “into Heaven” without any consequence. They just waltz in and “get” Heaven.

This couldn’t be farther from the truth and it would be a terrible mistake to think and act as such.

There will be consequences for all of our choices in this life. All of us, even for “believers”. We all will face God’s judgement someday, either in this life or the next.

For you see, God wants to reconcile the whole world to God, and for this to be accomplished all of our souls must learn to abandon thoughts of evil. Yes, we are all saved from death into life, and God must save/heal/rescue all of us from our sinful ways.

We must not confuse the forgiveness of sin with the restoration/reformation of the human soul. The former enables the latter to occur.

Yeshua’s exemplary sacrifice upon the cross demonstrated to the world three things:

God loves us all more dearly than we can ever know.
There is life in God after death.
The Law of Moses has been fulfilled. The price of The Law has been paid, not to satisfy God’s need for retributive justice, but our own.
God does not desire “an eye for an eye”. That is retributive justice. God desires restorative justice, in which our broken soul is reformed and restored into the likeness of Perfect Love with God.

But what is the process of this restoration to God?

The Refining Fire of God’s Love
The following (seemingly terrifying) promise from Yeshua’s own lips describes the nature of God’s purification of our hearts and souls by divine fire:

Matthew 13:42
“And (they) shall cast them into a furnace of purifying, refining fire there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

From the HELPS™ Word Studies:
In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the “fire of God” which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself.

God’s Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.

Ebeneezer Scrooge and God’s Restorative Love
The key to understanding the nature of God’s judgement is to know who Ebeneezer Scrooge is. That’s right: Scrooge.

In Charles Dickens’ “A Christmas Carol“, Scrooge, a faithless, heartless and brutal man, experiences this very kind of refining fire. He is tormented. He wails. He gnashes his teeth. But this is not a retributive torment, but a restorative torment. Through his being exposed to the devastating, uncensored reality of his life, Scrooge began to realize the true toll his choices had exacted upon his fellow man.

God exposes us to all of the horrible reality of our choices in our lives: past, present and future. The devastating fire of God’s love is a light so relentless that no darkness can hope to flee from it, even within the deepest recesses of our hearts.

In the face of the sheer uncensored consequence of our actions, our souls and hearts cannot help but to relent the stubborn struggle against the truth of God’s love and God’s will for us to love and forgive each other in kind.

This is the nature of God’s judgment for us all. Out of love, we will be made whole once more.

The best news of all is the revelation that, like Scrooge’s experience, this “refining fire” can be experienced in your life today. It doesn’t need to wait for some later “Judgement Day” revelation.

Is “Right Belief” a Factor In Our Receiving Grace?
No. Grace is God’s unmerited favor. There is nothing we can “do” to earn it; it is a gift from God. (Eph 2.8)

Therefore, Christian Universalists believe that even a declaration of faith, such as “I believe in _______”, is a work to earn righteousness and negates Grace. Statements of belief are not a factor in one’s eligibility to receive Grace. For example, to declare that “I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and my Lord and Savior” is not a prerequisite for Grace and salvation.

Then Why Be a Christian at All?
We, as Christian Universalists, believe that this unmerited Grace for all people is a direct result of Yeshua the Anointed and his exemplary love for us and his selfless sacrifice upon the cross. We are grateful to God for his amazing love and this unmerited Gift, and we worship God’s son Yeshua as our Lord and Savior, the Word made flesh, as a way of showing our gratitude.

But our worship does not justify us to receive salvation, only Grace can do that. In fact, the act of worship is only for our own sake: to recharge in the spirit, to find support and solace in communion with our brothers and sisters. Worship is NOT for the sake of God, nor what he desires.

What Does the Lord Require? (Micah 6)

6. “With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?
7. Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”
8. He has told you, mankind, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

If “Belief” Is Not a Factor, What Is Our Christian Identity?
John 13

34. “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

What we declare we believe, how we worship, who we worship, the color of our skin, the language we speak, our wealth, our poverty, our age, our history, even the gender of our lover… none of these things will define us as Christians or not.

Our Christian identity is found in whether of not we love one another as Christ loved us.

Is the Muslim who loves as Christ loved us my brother or sister in Christ? Yes, amen! Is the Buddhist? The Hindu? The Sikh? The Pagan? Yes, yes, and yes, amen!

What Is The Point of All This?
There is nothing you need to “do” to be saved! God loves you, and will restore us to God’s perfect love, every last one of us.

The point of all this, my dear brothers and sisters is freedom. Freedom from fear: the fear of death, the fear of damnation, the fear of failure.

Live life without fear, and you will empowered to love without fear!

And a world filling with people free of fear and loving and sacrificing for each other as Yeshua loved us and sacrificed himself for us, that is the key to the Kingdom on Earth. A new age where the values of Yeshua are the majority: selfless love, compassion, restorative justice, equality, and forgiveness.

We can do none of these things with fear in our hearts.”

 

[justjess]

We all are to some degree or another. I know there are still likely things that I believe from my indoctrination that God has yet to reveal and change. I would hope that every Christian is constantly seeking and asking God to show them where their beliefs are wrong.

The reason there are so many different Christian denominations is because throughout history God showed individuals where church doctrine was not correct. When a faithful servant of God tried to correct the doctrine of the Church and was rejected, either that individual or the few who agreed with him ended up started a new denomination. But history repeats itself and most denominations after starting based on a new revelation from God stay stuck in that revelation and never move on to the next thing God wants to correct and change. The end result is 100's of different sects and denominations, many of which were founded on a fresh revelation and truth from God.

Don't get me wrong there are plenty of mainstream churches that are reaching peole and bringing them closer to God. But the paradigm of institionalized religion is not the only expression of the living Body of Christ. Some of my beliefs prevent me from being fully engaged in a traditional institutionalized church without me pretending to accept things I do not believe. I'm not the type to sit quietly in a church pew and not engage. So rather than cause strife and turmoil in a conventional church organization I have trusted God to open other doors for me to minister and use my gifts. Because of this I have been able to reach a lot of people who would never enter the doors of a conventional church buidling or organization. It doesn't make me better or more important than leaders in the conventional church. It's just what it is.

I come here to share and debate my contrarian views becasue I would expect that people on a consipracy theory website would be more open minded and less prone to stay stuck in the indoctrination of institutionalized religion.

You should seek out a Unitarian Universalist Church Todd... I do truly believe you would find community there.

 

[Todd]

You should seek out a Unitarian Universalist Church Todd... I do truly believe you would find community there.

Perhaps, but I have found peace in where I am at now. I still fellowship with other believers who attend conventional churches and though I am not engaged as a member or leader, I still frequent some local churches from time to time to worship and hear the word. Not being involved in organized church leadership has freed me up to minister in less conventional ways, and I have come to peace with accepting that is God's path for me at this time.

I appreciate the thought though and it has merit. I also appreciate you posting that article about Christian Universalism. Thanks!

 

[justjess]

Perhaps, but I have found peace in where I am at now. I still fellowship with other believers who attend conventional churches and though I am not engaged as a member or leader, I still frequent some local churches from time to time to worship and hear the word. Not being involved in organized church leadership has freed me up to minister in less conventional ways, and I have come to peace with accepting that is God's path for me at this time.

I appreciate the thought though and it has merit. I also appreciate you posting that article about Christian Universalism. Thanks!

No thanks needed.

I would attend the church myself but there are none no where near where I live. When I was in Brooklyn there was a huge beautiful church and they did and continue to do soo much for the community... but I’m on my “own” now too. I get it. My kids are raised in the Catholic Church (for lack of options and family history) and when my son started to ask questions I just made the opposing views known to him and let him make up his own mind. I will do the same if my daughter ever asks.

 

[Lisa]

I am not using the quote feature for this in hopes that if the full text is plainly visible it might encourage some people to actually read it... I truly wish that hope is not in vein


“Christian Universalism: An Argument Against Fear
Email, RSS Follow9Save
It’s All About “Eternal Hell” vs. “Restorative Love”
In my discussions with fine Christian folks of all stripes from across the world, I have gratefully discovered that most Christians are much more likely to embrace the concepts of Christian Universalism than any of us assumed they’d ever be.

When it comes right down to it, the vast majority of people simply don’t believe in an “eternal” hell. They do still believe in some form of divine judgment, but it is a finite judgement for nearly everyone I’ve asked.

So the question is: if we don’t believe in an “eternal hell”, what do we believe in?

In this article I intend to present some of the basic tenets of Christian Universalism for your consideration.

What is Christian Universalism?
What is Universal Salvation?
What About Judgment?
What is God’s “Refining Fire”?
Is “Right Belief” is a factor for receiving Grace?
Then Why Be a Christian at All?
What Is Our Christian Identity?
What Is The Point of All This?
What is “Christian Universalism”?
Christian Universalism is the set of tenets which holds the following to be true:

All humans are created in God’s image. Therefore we have a common parent in the family of God. (Gen 1:27)
God is in ALL things, and ALL things are from God and belong to God. (Rom 11:36, Eph 4:5-6)
God’s will is to save (heal/restore) all the world. (Jn 3:17)
God is love, and there is no punishment in love. (1 John 4:18)
The actions of God through Yeshua the Anointed absolved “our condition of sin”. (Rom 5:18-19)
God taught us to love our enemies, therefore God must do the same. (Lk 6:27)
Salvation is an unmerited gift from God: it cannot be earned so that no one can claim preference before God. (Eph 2.8)
All is made equal before God, for God (Christ) is in all. (Col 3:11)
All people are now baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13)
In short, Christian Universalists believe that God is one, and there are no other gods but God. (Deut 32:39) God is all powerful, and when God acted through God’s beloved Son, the Word made flesh, Yeshua the Anointed (Christ), he acted once and for all in the name of love and grace for the sake of salvation for all. (Heb 10:8-10, 1 Pt 3:18)

We believe that God is all-powerful and God’s love is irresistible, and that God’s will is for all things to be restored, refined, and reconciled unto God, even evil.

2 Corinthians 5
18. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19. that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Universal Salvation
Universal Salvation is the belief that all people, from all religions or spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) are still loved by God and are saved. Be they Muslim, Hindu, Sufi, Buddhist or pagan, all of God’s Children are saved from the power of everlasting death.

However, for Christian Universalists, we do not believe that this means every religion is created equal, much less are beneficial. Some religions promote individualistic selfish interest, violence, and judgment of the “others” of society. Some branches of Christianity and Islam are guilty of this very perversion.

But we also believe that there are Great Universal Truths inculcated within all of the world’s compassionate religions which promote mercy, forgiveness, community, and humility. We hold these truths to be as inspired as our own traditions and just as relevant in the spiritual journey of humanity.

Of course, as Christian Universalists, we believe that the Word of God was made flesh in the identity of the man, Yeshua of Nazareth. We believe that the nature, will and compassion of God was most fully incarnate and expressed through this man’s life and teachings. Fully human and fully God, The Word and Wisdom of God showed us how to live and love as Children of God. And through the selfless nature of his exemplary death upon the cross, and though his subsequent resurrection, we find proof of God’s immeasurable love for his Children and God’s absolute victory over death.

What About Judgment?
The first instinctive reaction for many people when they hear that “all people are saved” is to assume this means we receive permission to do anything we want cart-blanche and without consequence.

They imagine the Hitlers, and Dahmers, murderers, molesters and abusers of this world getting “into Heaven” without any consequence. They just waltz in and “get” Heaven.

This couldn’t be farther from the truth and it would be a terrible mistake to think and act as such.

There will be consequences for all of our choices in this life. All of us, even for “believers”. We all will face God’s judgement someday, either in this life or the next.

For you see, God wants to reconcile the whole world to God, and for this to be accomplished all of our souls must learn to abandon thoughts of evil. Yes, we are all saved from death into life, and God must save/heal/rescue all of us from our sinful ways.

We must not confuse the forgiveness of sin with the restoration/reformation of the human soul. The former enables the latter to occur.

Yeshua’s exemplary sacrifice upon the cross demonstrated to the world three things:

God loves us all more dearly than we can ever know.
There is life in God after death.
The Law of Moses has been fulfilled. The price of The Law has been paid, not to satisfy God’s need for retributive justice, but our own.
God does not desire “an eye for an eye”. That is retributive justice. God desires restorative justice, in which our broken soul is reformed and restored into the likeness of Perfect Love with God.

But what is the process of this restoration to God?

The Refining Fire of God’s Love
The following (seemingly terrifying) promise from Yeshua’s own lips describes the nature of God’s purification of our hearts and souls by divine fire:

Matthew 13:42
“And (they) shall cast them into a furnace of purifying, refining fire there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

From the HELPS™ Word Studies:
In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the “fire of God” which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself.

God’s Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.

Ebeneezer Scrooge and God’s Restorative Love
The key to understanding the nature of God’s judgement is to know who Ebeneezer Scrooge is. That’s right: Scrooge.

In Charles Dickens’ “A Christmas Carol“, Scrooge, a faithless, heartless and brutal man, experiences this very kind of refining fire. He is tormented. He wails. He gnashes his teeth. But this is not a retributive torment, but a restorative torment. Through his being exposed to the devastating, uncensored reality of his life, Scrooge began to realize the true toll his choices had exacted upon his fellow man.

God exposes us to all of the horrible reality of our choices in our lives: past, present and future. The devastating fire of God’s love is a light so relentless that no darkness can hope to flee from it, even within the deepest recesses of our hearts.

In the face of the sheer uncensored consequence of our actions, our souls and hearts cannot help but to relent the stubborn struggle against the truth of God’s love and God’s will for us to love and forgive each other in kind.

This is the nature of God’s judgment for us all. Out of love, we will be made whole once more.

The best news of all is the revelation that, like Scrooge’s experience, this “refining fire” can be experienced in your life today. It doesn’t need to wait for some later “Judgement Day” revelation.

Is “Right Belief” a Factor In Our Receiving Grace?
No. Grace is God’s unmerited favor. There is nothing we can “do” to earn it; it is a gift from God. (Eph 2.8)

Therefore, Christian Universalists believe that even a declaration of faith, such as “I believe in _______”, is a work to earn righteousness and negates Grace. Statements of belief are not a factor in one’s eligibility to receive Grace. For example, to declare that “I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and my Lord and Savior” is not a prerequisite for Grace and salvation.

Then Why Be a Christian at All?
We, as Christian Universalists, believe that this unmerited Grace for all people is a direct result of Yeshua the Anointed and his exemplary love for us and his selfless sacrifice upon the cross. We are grateful to God for his amazing love and this unmerited Gift, and we worship God’s son Yeshua as our Lord and Savior, the Word made flesh, as a way of showing our gratitude.

But our worship does not justify us to receive salvation, only Grace can do that. In fact, the act of worship is only for our own sake: to recharge in the spirit, to find support and solace in communion with our brothers and sisters. Worship is NOT for the sake of God, nor what he desires.

What Does the Lord Require? (Micah 6)

6. “With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?
7. Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”
8. He has told you, mankind, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

If “Belief” Is Not a Factor, What Is Our Christian Identity?
John 13

34. “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

What we declare we believe, how we worship, who we worship, the color of our skin, the language we speak, our wealth, our poverty, our age, our history, even the gender of our lover… none of these things will define us as Christians or not.

Our Christian identity is found in whether of not we love one another as Christ loved us.

Is the Muslim who loves as Christ loved us my brother or sister in Christ? Yes, amen! Is the Buddhist? The Hindu? The Sikh? The Pagan? Yes, yes, and yes, amen!

What Is The Point of All This?
There is nothing you need to “do” to be saved! God loves you, and will restore us to God’s perfect love, every last one of us.

The point of all this, my dear brothers and sisters is freedom. Freedom from fear: the fear of death, the fear of damnation, the fear of failure.

Live life without fear, and you will empowered to love without fear!

And a world filling with people free of fear and loving and sacrificing for each other as Yeshua loved us and sacrificed himself for us, that is the key to the Kingdom on Earth. A new age where the values of Yeshua are the majority: selfless love, compassion, restorative justice, equality, and forgiveness.

We can do none of these things with fear in our hearts.”

The deception of humanistic love and ecumenism...sounds good to people but it isn’t Biblical.

 

[justjess]

The deception of humanistic love and ecumenism...sounds good to people but it isn’t Biblical.

I’ve read the Bible hun. There’s plenty in there to support it, you just choose to focus on other things instead. The good news is as far as my perspective - you’ll be fine anyway so feel free to believe what you want. And I’m not worried about your perspective because I know it’s wrong.

 

[Lisa]

I’ve read the Bible hun. There’s plenty in there to support it, you just choose to focus on other things instead. The good news is as far as my perspective - you’ll be fine anyway so feel free to believe what you want. And I’m not worried about your perspective because I know it’s wrong.

You may have read the Bible but you’ve even said you’re not a Christian, so not being a Christian, you’re prone to getting the Bible wrong not right.

 

[justjess]

You may have read the Bible but you’ve even said you’re not a Christian, so not being a Christian, you’re prone to getting the Bible wrong not right.

I’m not a “Christian” BECAUSE I read the Bible.

I don’t claim the title Christian here because I believe Jesus was a man, I don’t believe in the trinity, I don’t believe in eternal hell, I don’t believe in literalism, I don’t believe in a whole bunch of stuff all the Christians here decided are necessary to be a Christian.

I do believe in god, I do believe god is one, I do believe Jesus was sent by god and died for us. I’ve said this numerous times. There’s a word for those beliefs... Unitarian Universalist or Christian universalist and that’s what I am, I’ve mentikned it before, but I won’t claim to be a Christian like YOU because I’m not. Clearly.

 

[Lisa]

I’m not a “Christian” BECAUSE I read the Bible.

Lol...that doesn’t make any sense

 

[Todd]

You may have read the Bible but you’ve even said you’re not a Christian, so not being a Christian, you’re prone to getting the Bible wrong not right.

Jesus Peter, James and John weren't "Christian" either. Did they get it wrong?
As far as I can tell @justjess loves God and loves her neighbor as herself. She is following the teaching of Jesus as well as anyone else here.

From what I can see Jesus didn't go around condemning people because their religion was wrong or their beliefs were incorrect. The only people Jesus criticised were religious hypocrites who judged and condemned others.

 

[Lisa]

Jesus Peter, James and John weren't "Christian" either. Did they get it wrong?
As far as I can tell @justjess loves God and loves her neighbor as herself. She is following the teaching of Jesus as well as anyone else here.

From what I can see Jesus didn't go around condemning people because their religion was wrong or their beliefs were incorrect. The only people Jesus criticised were religious hypocrites who judged and condemned others.

There is only the narrow way, Todd. I didn’t say that Jesus did...
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
‭‭Matthew ‭7:13-14‬ ‭
https://www.bible.com/100/mat.7.13-14.nasb

 

[justjess]

Lol...that doesn’t make any sense

Your churches... the Christian religion itself... does not reflect in any way shape or form what i found when I read the Bible. So why would I call myself a Christian?

The Christian religion requires beliefs in things which I don’t believe. I don’t believe those things because when I read the Bible I didn’t find those things.

I will call myself a follower of Christ, I will call myself a universalist or a Unitarian or both. I will call myself spiritual. But when engaged in conversation with main stream Christians I am not going to make the mistake of calling myself a Christian and having to Hear shit like what you say to me or Todd, it’s just to much headache for no reason.

Just because something doesn’t make sense to you Lisa doesn’t mean it actually doesn’t make sense.

 

[Lisa]

Just because something doesn’t make sense to you Lisa doesn’t mean it actually doesn’t make sense.

No it pretty much doesn’t make sense.

You want to read the Bible and pick what you like, ya, that would not make you a Christian and a Christian would try to help you learn the truth so you could be saved not to make you feel bad. But unfortunately, learning that you didn’t get it right would probably upset you too.

 

[justjess]

No it pretty much doesn’t make sense.

You want to read the Bible and pick what you like, ya, that would not make you a Christian and a Christian would try to help you learn the truth so you could be saved not to make you feel bad. But unfortunately, learning that you didn’t get it right would probably upset you too.

Upset me? What would I be upset about? If god is truly who you think he is Lisa I genuinely want no part of him. None. I’d rather burn in Hell. And if that’s where I’m going so be it... I just know I’m not so I’m not worried. I’m not fearful.

I didn’t pick what I liked... I read the whole thing and listened to what it said.

 

[Lisa]

I’d rather burn in Hell. And if that’s where I’m going so be it... I just know I’m not so I’m not worried. I’m not fearful.

You aren’t fearful because you don’t believe in hell?

 

[justjess]

You aren’t fearful because you don’t believe in hell?

I am not fearful because I don’t believe in eternal damnation - so yes hell. I am not fearful because I KNOW gods love is more vast and powerful then you believe it to be. I am not fearful because god shouldn’t be feared.