The Rapture

Red Sky at Morning · Apr 13, 2017

Karlysymon said:
Another one with pre-trib slant but went to great lengths to examine both sides
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/is-modern-state-of-israel-prophetically-significant

@Lisa
at the end of the day, we'll all stand individually before God to answer why we believed what we now believe.

Fortunately our stance in the Rapture and Israel are not salvation issues...

Karlysymon · Apr 13, 2017

Red Sky at Morning said:
Fortunately our stance in the Rapture and Israel are not salvation issues...

Yeah. Matt 24 and 25 are littered with Christ's admonitions for people to remain watchful and on their guard. For those who think we live in the end times, examining the issues is important. Christ wouldn't give out those warnings if the 'showdown' would have no bearing on our spirituality. Just sayin.....

Thunderian · Apr 13, 2017

Red Sky at Morning said:
Fortunately our stance in the Rapture and Israel are not salvation issues...

Our stance is not an issue in regards to our own salvation, but there are those who believe that if you have heard and rejected the gospel now, you will not be able to accept Christ after the Rapture. If this is true (not saying it is) there will be people who will go to hell because someone convinced them they could wait until the prophesied events of the Tribulation were in full swing to make a decision about Christ. Either way, people need to get saved now so that it won't be an issue.

Thunderian · Apr 13, 2017

Karlysymon said:
Another one with pre-trib slant but went to great lengths to examine both sides
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/is-modern-state-of-israel-prophetically-significant

Thank you for posting this. Very well done piece of writing. Lots of scripture and lots of facts, with a pretty good understanding of the positions. It doesn't mention that Rapture at all, but it's still a great read.

Karlysymon · Apr 14, 2017

Okay, looked around for a suitable thread for this and couldn't find one. The Assad thread wouldn't do So will post here................

Here we go again!
Before the invasion of Iraq in 2003

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/aug/10/religion-george-bush
Fastfoward to 2017 and its deja vu. Same old script.

Pat Robertson

Following Russia’s air strikes targeting rebels in Syria in October 2015, questions began
reemerging in evangelical circles about whether events surrounding the country’s ongoing civil war, which began in 2011, were tied in any way to biblical prophecy. Rosenberg published a blog post in the wake of the air strikes claiming that Russian president
Vladimir Putin is “working hand-in- glove with Iran’s
government” in formulating operations in Syria. It came the same week as reports that Iran
was waging a ground attack,while Russia was carrying out assaults from the air. “The Hebrew prophet Ezekiel wrote 2,500 years ago that in
the ‘last days’ of history, Russia and Iran will form a military alliance to attack Israel from the north,” Rosenberg wrote. “Bible scholars refer to this
eschatological conflict,
described in Ezekiel 38–39, as the ‘War of Gog & Magog.’” He added, “Are these sudden and dramatic moves by Moscow and Tehran…simply coincidental, or [do they] have prophetic implications?

Iam so sick of the way Isaiah 17 is being tossed out, since last year, to justify this war. Hopefully cooler heads in the evangelical camp will prevail.

“Bible Answer Man” Hank Hanegraaff also spoke about supposed biblical prophecies associated with the end times
back in 2013 on his radio show.
A caller asked about claims that the Book of Isaiah details coming destruction for Damascus, a notion to which Hanegraaff pushed back. “So, what you’re saying is they’re tying in the passages in Isaiah to what is currently
happening in Syria…and this is just a classic example of newspaper eschatology and shame on the pastors that are
doing this, because it either is a case of them not knowing the word of God, which seems unlikely to me, or simply wanting to invite sensationalism and sophistry,” he responded. “If you look at what the Bible actually says, it is
very clear that the fulfillment comes in the biblical text aswell.”

http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2017/april/is-chaos-in-syria-fulfilling-bible-prophecy
Except warhawks have been hard at work since '83 to immanentize their eschaton: Declassified CIA Doc Reveals Plan to Destroy Syria for Oil
Pipeline, Predicts Current Crisis
http://www.thefreethoughtproject.com/cia-document-destroy-syria-1983/
But hey, the warhawks need the wolves-in-sheep's-clothing ministers to make it happen!

Thunderian · Apr 14, 2017

Karly, can I point out that observing world events and discussing how they might fit into prophecy is not at all the same as fomenting or supporting military action? I don't see any evangelicals in those links you posted who are actually cheering on war in the Middle East. Noting and studying does not equate support.

floss · Jan 8, 2018

@Thunderian

Hey brother, what's your take of these verses? It seem to me that Jesus won't come for the rapture after the tribulation.
I believe all believer will go through the Great Tribulation and those who survived, get rapture before the wrath of God.

1. Great Tribulation (sun and moon darkened)
Matthew 24:29King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:24King James Version (KJV)
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

2. Jesus Come in the Cloud [Rapture]
Matthew 24:30King James Version (KJV)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26King James Version (KJV)
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

3. Delivered believer from the Wrath of God
1 Thessalonians 1:10King James Version (KJV)
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
.
.
.
I believe this verse spoke about those who make it to the end, their flesh shall be saved [from death]. I also believed many Christians will get off their ass and preached the Gospel like never before, many will Repent and Jesus's name will be glorified. Will be a great time even though we might get our head chopped off. I'm okay with getting my head chop off as long as they do it quick.

Matthew 24:13King James Version (KJV)
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

G.T>Rapture>God's Wrath

Thunderian · Jan 8, 2018

floss said:
@Thunderian

Hey brother, what's your take of these verses? It seem to me that Jesus won't come for the rapture after the tribulation.
I believe all believer will go through the Great Tribulation and those who survived, get rapture before the wrath of God.

The Tribulation is for the Jews. I know Christians love to think it's all about us, but the prophet Daniel told us that God has set a time of 490 years for Israel to have her sin dealt with. 483 of those years have elapsed, leaving seven to go. Daniel and Revelation tell us of the events that take place during this final seven years, what we call the Tribulation, and none of them have anything to do with the Church. God has always promised that Israel would turn to him and be restored, amidst great danger and persecution, and that is essentially what the Tribulation is. When the seven years are complete, and the necessary events have taken place, Jesus Christ returns for his brethren, Israel.

1. Great Tribulation (sun and moon darkened)
Matthew 24:29King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:24King James Version (KJV)
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

The above verses are referring to the second coming of Jesus Christ, and not the Rapture.

2. Jesus Come in the Cloud [Rapture]
Matthew 24:30King James Version (KJV)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26King James Version (KJV)
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Again, these are Second Advent verses. Jesus is coming to conquer and to judge. The Rapture is not for either of those things, but only to remove the Church in preparation for dealing with Israel.

3. Delivered believer from the Wrath of God
1 Thessalonians 1:10King James Version (KJV)
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

.
I don't see Jesus with a stopwatch, timing it down to the last microsecond so the Church has to endure most of the Tribulation, but not the "wrath" part of it. As I said, it's about Israel, not the Church, and I think people focus on the wrong thing here.

If the wrath is happening Friday, and God removes you today, you are still delivered from "the wrath to come", even if you aren't taken out at the last minute. I believe it is the same with Christians and their deliverance from God's wrath.
.

I believe this verse spoke about those who make it to the end, their flesh shall be saved [from death]. I also believed many Christians will get off their ass and preached the Gospel like never before, many will Repent and Jesus's name will be glorified. Will be a great time even though we might get our head chopped off.

Matthew 24:13King James Version (KJV)
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

It will be an incredible time, but the Church will have no part in it. God will seal 144,000 Jewish witnesses for global evangelism, send the two witnesses to preach to the world from Jerusalem, and there will be an angel flying through the sky preaching the everlasting gospel. We would just get in the way.

floss · Jan 8, 2018

Thunderian said:
The Tribulation is for the Jews. I know Christians love to think it's all about us, but the prophet Daniel told us that God has set a time of 490 years for Israel to have her sin dealt with. 483 of those years have elapsed, leaving seven to go. Daniel and Revelation tell us of the events that take place during this final seven years, what we call the Tribulation, and none of them have anything to do with the Church. God has always promised that Israel would turn to him and be restored, amidst great danger and persecution, and that is essentially what the Tribulation is. When the seven years are complete, and the necessary events have taken place, Jesus Christ returns for his brethren, Israel.

The above verses are referring to the second coming of Jesus Christ, and not the Rapture.

Again, these are Second Advent verses. Jesus is coming to conquer and to judge. The Rapture is not for either of those things, but only to remove the Church in preparation for dealing with Israel.

.
I don't see Jesus with a stopwatch, timing it down to the last microsecond so the Church has to endure most of the Tribulation, but not the "wrath" part of it. As I said, it's about Israel, not the Church, and I think people focus on the wrong thing here.

If the wrath is happening Friday, and God removes you today, you are still delivered from "the wrath to come", even if you aren't taken out at the last minute. I believe it is the same with Christians and their deliverance from God's wrath.
.

It will be an incredible time, but the Church will have no part in it. God will seal 144,000 Jewish witnesses for global evangelism, send the two witnesses to preach to the world from Jerusalem, and there will be an angel flying through the sky preaching the everlasting gospel. We would just get in the way.

Thanks for the insight, I’m good with either rapture

How much longer do you think before its all going down?

TokiEl · Jan 8, 2018

floss said:
Thanks for the insight, I’m good with either rapture

How much longer do you think before its all going down?

This year.

TokiEl · Jan 8, 2018

Thunderian said:
The Tribulation is for the Jews. I know Christians love to think it's all about us, but the prophet Daniel told us that God has set a time of 490 years for Israel to have her sin dealt with. 483 of those years have elapsed, leaving seven to go. Daniel and Revelation tell us of the events that take place during this final seven years, what we call the Tribulation, and none of them have anything to do with the Church.

You wish.

floss · Jan 8, 2018

TokiEl said:
This year.

So you believe the Man of Sins will be revealed this year? Unless he has already been revealed [Obama]?

TokiEl · Jan 8, 2018

floss said:
So you believe the Man of Sins will be revealed this year? Unless he has already been revealed [Obama]?

I believe there will be nuclear war this year. And then the New World Order will begin as the Beast arise out of the sea in Rev 13.

Thunderian · Jan 8, 2018

floss said:
Thanks for the insight, I’m good with either rapture

How much longer do you think before its all going down?

The sooner the better.

Thunderian · Jan 8, 2018

TokiEl said:
You wish.

I guess you're going to explain that?

TokiEl · Jan 8, 2018

Thunderian said:
I guess you're going to explain that?

You wish Christians will not go through the Great tribulation but they will. Some snuffed and some into concentration camps. Some may be guarded and provided for according to the mysterious workings of God and the angels. That's why it is so important to repent and get right with God now and not later.

Revelation 13 9"He who has an ear, let him hear. 10“If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; If anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed.” Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints."

Revelation 14 9"And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Thunderian · Jan 8, 2018

TokiEl said:
You wish Christians will not go through the Great tribulation but they will. Some snuffed and some into concentration camps. Some may be guarded and provided for according to the mysterious workings of God and the angels. That's why it is so important to repent and get right with God now and not later.

Revelation 13 9"He who has an ear, let him hear. 10“If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; If anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed.” Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints."

Revelation 14 9"And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Yes, there will be believers during the Tribulation. I didn't say there wouldn't be. But when Jesus Christ takes his bride there won't be a single believer left on earth for awhile, and anyone who is saved after that will not be part of the Church.

Daciple · Jan 8, 2018

Thunderian said:
anyone who is saved after that will not be part of the Church.

What? So in your ideology these people are not part of the Bride of Christ? They are not going to inherit Eternal Life? They arent going to be in Heaven?

The Church is the body of believers, whenever they have happened to believe...

Red Sky at Morning · Jan 8, 2018

Thunderian said:
Yes, there will be believers during the Tribulation. I didn't say there wouldn't be. But when Jesus Christ takes his bride there won't be a single believer left on earth for awhile, and anyone who is saved after that will not be part of the Church.

Might that be why they are described as wise and foolish virgins? Invited to the wedding but not the Bride? Interesting implications...

As I see it, in the fullness of time, all believers will be drawn together into the New Heavens and New Earth. This will include people like OT saints and Children born during the Millennium when Jesus rules on the earth. Mind blowing, but I wouldn't expect anything less from a God who stands outside time...

Thunderian · Jan 8, 2018

Daciple said:
What? So in your ideology these people are not part of the Bride of Christ? They are not going to inherit Eternal Life? They arent going to be in Heaven?

The Church is the body of believers, whenever they have happened to believe...

The Church is the body of believers who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This is only possible during the age of grace, which began in Acts 2 and ends with the Rapture.

Believers from other ages are not part of the bride of Christ, but will have eternal life. We will all be together.

The Rapture

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