The Rapture

[Lisa]

I said EVEN in the US, only about a third of Christians believe in the pre-trib Rapture, and that's probably a high estimate. I understand that acceptance of the pre-trib point of view doesn't only take place in the US. As I pointed out, most denominations do not hold the pre-trib view. That's OK, because it's not a requirement for salvation. It will just be a nice surprise for them.



Your whole theory rests on the premise that everyone who believes in the pre-trib Rapture has faith that is so fragile they will completely reject God if they are don't get Raptured. Are you sure about this?



The Rapture should be viewed as one event within the Day of the Lord, which is a time of judgement and redemption. Born again Christians have already been judged and redeemed. Despite what you may think, there is no good Biblical reason why any would go through the Tribulation.

I think there are more pre tribbers than anything else...pre wrath is not very popular...

No, my whole theory doesn’t rest in fragile pre tribbers, it was just an observation how that would tie into the falling away.

Does God have to have a good Biblical reason for us to go through the tribulation? He even tells us that in this world we will have tribulations...and He tells us that in the tribulation we are here for our testimony, He will still be trying to reach the lost with the people He charged with sharing the Good News. Just because there is a great tribulation doesn’t mean that we stop sharing the Good News...because God wants all to be saved and our job is to share the Good News.

 

[Thunderian]

Well from the original question I was saying that those in OT had Faith in the coming Messiah, and that we have Faith in the Messiah who has come, you distinguished that there is a difference in the OT had Faith but it isnt the same as being built on the Blood of the Messiah.

If the Blood flows from the beginning of Time, and the OT had Faith in THAT Blood, the Blood of the Messiah to come, then why would they not be considered part of the Church? Thats the progression I am trying to understand. We (The Church) are saved by Faith thru Grace in the shed Blood of the Messiah. The Blood flows from the beginning of time, thus the OT who had Faith in the Messiah to come are also covered and had Faith in the same Blood so why a distinction and rejection of them from the Church?

The Salvation of Israel was and is built on the Blood of the Lamb and that Blood flows from the beginning of time there is no difference in Salvation for them or us or anyone else...

I don't know how to respond to that in any way that I haven't already. I'm not ignoring it, but I would direct you to my previous answers, and maybe my further answers in this post will fill things out for you.

So I would like to know why you suggest that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the definitive aspect of the Church? I would think that what makes someone a part of the Church is Salvation, do they believe and are they Saved. It is apparent that the method in which the Holy Spirit operated was different between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant but the Holy Spirit was still operating. In fact I was reading in Acts last night and Stephen said this right before the Jews murdered him:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I could quote many more Scriptures concerning the fact that the Holy Spirit was in operation during the Old Testament, and as I have stated in the past everyone has always been saved the same, by Faith thru Grace. There is definitely a difference in the operation of the Holy Spirit then and now, but how does the method in which the Holy Spirit operate determine ones inclusion or exclusion into the Church. In my view its simply are you saved or not, that is what includes one into the Church regardless of what era they are saved.

I have not said that the Holy Spirit was not in operation in the Old Testament. The difference between now and then is that believers are sealed forever at salvation. This was never offered to believers in the Old Testament. Judges 15:14; 1 Chronicles 12:18; Psalm 51:11 and Ezekiel 11:5 all speak of the coming and going of the Holy Spirit in believers, but Jesus promised believers, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;".

Paul fleshes this out a bit more in Ephesians 1:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

There are many other places in the New Testament where our permanent sealing by the Holy Spirit is referenced, but the bottom line is that when we accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice for us, we are filled with God's spirit as a mark of who we belong to and as a promise of our inheritance, and we can never lose that. Again, nothing like this was available to Old Testament saints. If it was, you need to show where and how if you continue to insist there is no difference between our salvation and theirs.

What does Scripture say concerning the Body of Christ (is this a metaphor for the Church in your mind, it is for me?)...

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

When I read this I dont see a separation, I see those that were NOT included (the Gentiles) being ushered into something established by the Old Testament Saints and now the Gentiles become fellowcitizens with those from the Old Testament that were saved and now we ALL are ONE body. This Scripture pretty much says those in the future will be added to those in the past making ONE body and ONE building, there is no distinction between Old and New here.

I'm pretty sure I have stated that we will all be one body one day.

I would say the onus is on you to show the separation via Scripture alone not preconceived ideologies, that the Church is a wholly different and separate entity that is not at all comprised of ANYONE from the Old Testament...

The Church isn't mentioned in the Old Testament, the method of salvation is different in the Old Testament, and Paul spells out gifts and callings for the body of New Testament believers, which he calls the Church, that are unlike anything given or commanded to Old Testament saints, and it's MY job to show how the Church is different and doesn't include Old Testament saints? I would say you are the one who who has your work cut out for you.

So let me ask are WE spotless and a virgin before coming to Christ?

No, but we are made so at salvation, and our souls are sealed by the Holy Spirit and remain so forever. This is how the Church, the bride of Christ, can be presented as pure.

I must ask again, when did Old Testament saints become part of the body of Christ, if we are in Christ and there is no difference between us and them? I have to assume that you believe that Christ lived in them as well, so why would it be possible for him to leave them and not us?

The Old Testament as I have shown in the previous posts speaks specifically as God REDEEMING and RESTORING the Bride from its infidelity. We were unfaithful in the same manner as Israel, but I think the biggest problem is trying to make Israel dealt with as a WHOLE NATION instead of as individuals. As I posted previously Paul says Israel isnt NOT all Israel but only the believers make up Israel. The individuals are REDEEMED, just as we were, the individuals are RESTORED just as we were.

Do you believe God to be a polygamous? If God Restores and Redeems Israel as His Bride and also has us as His Bride then He has 2 Brides. Do you believe God will have 2 Brides? I surely dont, God has ONE Bride that consists of the believers that were in Israel and us now...

Israel is not the bride of Christ. The Church is.

Maybe this will help:

A Comparison and Contrast Between Israel and the Church​

Israel is a nation chosen by God and sustained by covenant promises (Deut. 7:6-9). Not all individuals in this chosen nation are saved (Rom. 9:6; 11:28).

The Church is a called out assembly of believers who have been baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). Every member of the body of Christ is saved, though there are multitudes of professing Christians who may not be saved (2 Tim. 2:19).

Israel traces its origin to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob being the father of the twelve tribes).

The Church traces its origin to the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) when believers were first placed into the body of Christ.

In God’s program for Israel, His witnesses comprised a nation (Isaiah 43:10).

In God’s program for the Church, His witnesses are among all nations (Acts 1:8).

God’s program for Israel centered in Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37) and will again center in Jerusalem during the Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-20) and during the Millennium (Isa. 2:1-5).

God’s program for His Church began in Jerusalem and extended to the uttermost parts of the earth (Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8). The Church is identified with the risen Christ, not with any earthly city.

The hope and expectancy of Israel was earthly, centering in the establishment of the Kingdom of the Messiah foretold by the prophets (Jer. 23:5-8; Isa. 2:1-5; 11:1-16).

The hope and expectancy of the Church is heavenly, centering in the glorious appearing of Christ to take His people to heaven (John 14:1-3; Phil. 3:20-21; Col. 3:1-4; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).

God’s purpose and program for Israel was revealed in the Old Testament Scriptures.

God’s purpose and program for the Church was not revealed in the Old Testament, but was revealed by the New Testament apostles and prophets (Eph. 3:5).

Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 70 weeks or 490 years) involved animal sacrifices. These years will include the tribulation. Israel’s millennial history will involve the same (Ezek. 43:27).

The Church’s history does not involve animal sacrifices. Messiah’s sacrifice is commemorated by means of the Lord’s Table.

Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years including also the Tribulation) involves a temple in Jerusalem. The same will be true in the Millennium (Ezek. chapters 40-48).

During most of the Church age there is no Jewish temple in Jerusalem. In this age God manifests His glory in His believers, both individually and collectively, designating them as His temple (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19-20; Eph. 2:21-22). This is accomplished by the indwelling ministry of God the Holy Spirit.

Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years) involves a priesthood limited to the sons of Aaron, and excluding most Israelites. The same applies to the Millennium when Zadokian priests (also sons of Aaron) will serve in the temple (Ezek. 40:46; 43:19; 44:15).

During the Church age every true believer is a priest and able to offer spiritual sacrifices to the Lord (Heb. 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6). Whereas Israel had a priesthood, the Church is a priesthood.

Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years) will terminate with the coming of the Messiah to the earth to establish His Kingdom reign.

The Church’s history will end at the Rapture of the Church when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (1 Thess. 4:13-18; Rom. 11:25).

During Israel’s history (the 490 years of Daniel 9:24 which also includes the Tribulation) the ethnic makeup of the world is bipartite: Jews and Gentiles. This division of all people into Jews and Gentiles will also apply to those in the Millennial Kingdom in natural bodies.

During the Church age from Pentecost to the Rapture the ethnic makeup of the world is tripartite: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God (1 Cor. 10:32), the Church being composed of saved Jews and Gentiles united together in one Body (Eph. 2:15; 3:6).

During Israel’s history, from Sinai to the Millennial Kingdom (excluding the Church age), Israel’s role in the world will be characterized by PRIORITY [that is, they will have a leading role as God’s chosen people]—see Deut. 4:6-8; Isa. 43:10; Matt. 10:5-6; Zech. 8:23.

During the Church age, Israel’s role in the world will be characterized by EQUALITY—Jew and Gentiles united together in one body to bear testimony to a risen Christ (Col. 3:11; Gal. 3:28).

Male Jews were circumcised as a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. Believing Jews were circumcised in the heart (Jer. 4:4).

Believers of this age enjoy an internal circumcision not made with hands (Col. 2:11; Phil. 3:3). Physical circumcision is not required.

Israel was under the law of Moses as a rule of life.

The Church is under the “new creature” rule (Gal. 6:15-16).

Unbelieving Jews were physical children of Abraham and spiritual children of the devil (John 8:37-44).

Every believer in Christ (every true member of the Church, whether Jew or Gentile) is a child of Abraham and a child of God (Rom. 4:11-12; Gal. 3:326-29). This statement does not mean that Church age believers are Israelites.

Israel was to observe the Sabbath Day (Exodus 20:8). Sabbath observance will also take place in the Tribulation (Matt. 24:20) and in the Millennium (Ezek. 46:1,3).

The Church is to be diligent and make every effort to enter into God’s rest (Heb. 4:9-11). This is a daily duty.

Membership into the Jewish nation was by birth or by becoming a proselyte (a convert to Judaism).

Membership into the Church is by the new birth accomplished by the baptizing ministry of God (1 Cor. 12:13).

Believing Jews prior to Pentecost, believing Jews during the tribulation, and believing Jews during the Kingdom reign of Christ are not members of the body of Christ.

Believing Jews and Gentiles from Pentecost to the Rapture are members of the body of Christ.

Israel’s place of worship centered in Jerusalem (Dan. 6:10; John 4:20) and this will also be true in the Tribulation (Dan. 9:27) and in the Millennium (Isa. 2:1-5).

The Church’s place of worship is “Where two or three are gathered together in My Name” (Matt. 18:20; John 4:21-24). Christ is in the midst of His Churches (Rev. 1:13, 20).

Israel is likened to the wife of Jehovah, often an unfaithful wife (Hosea).

The Church is the beloved Bride of Christ (2 Cor. 11:2; Rev. 19:7-8) to be one day presented blameless and spotless (Eph 5:27).
​

I understand your necessity in stressing such a point, even if you can not prove such a thing exists via Scripture alone because if we begin to understand that all the Promises given to Israel have been fulfilled in the New Covenant then your entire ideology falls apart.

There are still plenty of promises that God made Israel that are still to be fulfilled, but I will pick just one for you to prove your idea with.

When was this passage in Jeremiah 31 fulfilled?

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.​

If the Church ISNT a separate entity, if the Israel ISNT wholly apart from the Church then how can you still believe in this restoration of Israel physically?

I believe in the restoration of Israel physically because God has promised it. How are you able to not believe in it?

Hopefully you can understand the purpose of my questioning, and discuss it instead of brushing it off because I dont accept the premise that there is a difference between those who were saved in Israel and believers today... I fully understand your position, I used to believe as you do now, but I am finding problems with these positions, are you willing to discuss and work thru with me the questions I have?

The Bible is clear about the difference between Israel and the Church, and I will be more than happy to continue to show you scripture that proves this.

 

[Thunderian]

I know you are busy with others, but how do you interpret especially the latter part of this verse? Do you see it as a possible, or probable, reference to Antichrist?

“I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.”
(John 5:43)
​

Furthermore, do you think that Maimonides' Messianic description, or criteria, provided above fits Jesus? Speaking of "what the Bible says," Maimonides, being an Orthodox Jew among Jews, quotes the Bible and scriptures quite often to (try to) prove his point, so evidently there is no standard interpretation. Nevertheless, I am interested to hear yours.

I believe it is a reference to the antichrist.

Daniel writes:

Daniel 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
​

"He" is the antichrist. The covenant is a treaty that will allow Israel to live in peace and will have some component that will allow the rebuilding of the Temple. The treaty will be for seven years (one week of years), but at the midway point, the antichrist will go into the Temple and stop the sacrifices that have been restarted, and declare himself to be God. The Bible says that instead of accepting him, the Jews will flee into the desert, so clearly this is not acceptance.

But until he goes crazy in the Temple, Israel will look on him as their saviour. Not in the sense of being their Messiah, but as someone who can finally end the trouble that Israel has with her neighours and allow them to have peace for the first time since the nation has been reborn. Think about it: What if someone announced today that there was a plan that everyone was happy with, that solved all the disputes (at least for seven years) and brought peace to the Middle East? How would Israel view such a man? How would the world? I mean, he would be lauded as diplomatic messiah, for sure. Man of the year, Nobel prizes, etc.

This is why what is taking place right now in the Middle East is so fascinating to me. There is a realignment of priorities by Arab nations that make it seem possible for the first time that peace could come between Israel and her enemies. If Kushner wasn't a Jew, I would wonder about him in the role of the one who comes in his own name. Regardless, Israel and the other nations are primed for such a man, and such a peace treaty.

 

[Thunderian]

Part II ...

Furthermore, do you think that Maimonides' Messianic description, or criteria, provided above fits Jesus? Speaking of "what the Bible says," Maimonides, being an Orthodox Jew among Jews, quotes the Bible and scriptures quite often to (try to) prove his point, so evidently there is no standard interpretation. Nevertheless, I am interested to hear yours.

What he describes appears to mirror fairly closely what the Bible says will place during Jesus Christ's millennial reign. Israel will have the land God promised them, and will be obeying all the commandments that will keep them in good standing with him. I can go on, but that is the short answer.

 

[Serveto]

The Bible doesn't say that the Jews will accept the antichrist as their Messiah.

... how do you interpret especially the latter part of this verse? Do you see it as a possible, or probable, reference to antichrist?

“I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.”
(John 5:43)​

I believe it is a reference to the antichrist.

Well, I thought it a probable reference to him as well. So if Orthodox Jews didn't and don't (at least not yet) accept Jesus as Messiah, and yet will accept "another" who comes in his own name, isn't that another contrasted to Jesus as antichrist to Christ, with it understood that Christ is the Greek word for Messiah?

"He" is the antichrist. The covenant is a treaty that will allow Israel to live in peace and will have some component that will allow the rebuilding of the Temple. The treaty will be for seven years (one week of years), but at the midway point, the antichrist will go into the Temple and stop the sacrifices that have been restarted, and declare himself to be God. The Bible says that instead of accepting him, the Jews will flee into the desert, so clearly this is not acceptance.

Is it safe to conclude that, as you read it, Orthodox Jews will accept antichrist for a period of time, 3.5 years, until they reject him because he declares himself to be God? If so, I can see the logic in that.

But until he goes crazy in the Temple, Israel will look on him as their saviour. Not in the sense of being their Messiah ...

I don't mean to cut you off, but I might point out that Maimonides gave, as part of the criteria for "King Messiah," the fact that, among other things, he will do as you said: rebuild the Temple.

Think about it: What if someone announced today that there was a plan that everyone was happy with, that solved all the disputes (at least for seven years) and brought peace to the Middle East? How would Israel view such a man? How would the world? I mean, he would be lauded as diplomatic messiah, for sure. Man of the year, Nobel prizes, etc.

Absolutely true, that!

This is why what is taking place right now in the Middle East is so fascinating to me.

I share your fascination. We live in at once perilous and promising times. How interesting, as well, that technology is such that we, as a group, can share realtime opinions and viewpoints, though we be so separated geographically, ideologically, etc.

If Kushner wasn't a Jew, I would wonder about him in the role of the one who comes in his own name.

Why would his being Jewish preclude him from being a candidate for one who comes in his own name?

Regardless, Israel and the other nations are primed for such a man, and such a peace treaty.

Agreed. It is one of the burning issues of the hour.

______________________
Edit to add: I follow your lead by not capitalizing antichrist; I, too, thereby show him no respect.

 

[The Zone]

All I know is that people are going to feel silly if the Rapture comes while they are on V.C.

 

[Thunderian]

Well, I thought it a probable reference to him as well. So if Orthodox Jews didn't and don't (at least not yet) accept Jesus as Messiah, and yet will accept "another" who comes in his own name, isn't that another contrasted to Jesus as antichrist to Christ, with it understood that Christ is the Greek word for Messiah?

I guess we'll have to see. I take antichrist as being more against Christ than passing himself off as the real thing. Certainly, there will be those who will see in him the qualities of the Messiah, but I don't believe the antichrist's agenda will be to claim he is the promised one.

Is it safe to conclude that, as you read it, Orthodox Jews will accept antichrist for a period of time, 3.5 years, until they reject him because he declares himself to be God? If so, I can see the logic in that.

No. As I said, the nation of Israel will accept him as a saviour of sorts, but not as the promised Messiah, because I don't think he will present himself that way. I know a lot of people believe this, and that is what I was taught, but to be the Messiah he would need to fulfill a lot of scripture to qualify, and I think that will be impossible for the antichrist to do.

In the context of the original verse from John we were speaking of, Jesus would have fulfilled every messianic prophecy then and there, had the Jews accepted him. At the time Jesus came they were under occupation, and were looking for a saviour -- someone to throw off the Roman chains and allow Israel to be a sovereign and free nation again. The antichrist will come in the same kind of role for the Jews, except it will be peace he will be offering. This time, they will accept.

I don't mean to cut you off, but I might point out that Maimonides gave, as part of the criteria for "King Messiah," the fact that, among other things, he will do as you said: rebuild the Temple.

The Old Testament goes into great detail about the reign of Jesus Christ when he finally comes into his throne in Jerusalem, and sacrifices in the Temple are a part of that. During that time, all the nations of the world will be required to come to Jerusalem to pay respects to the Lord, to honour him with sacrifices and tithes, and to observe various feasts and customs. Salvation will be based on this.

I share your fascination. We live in at once perilous and promising times. How interesting, as well, that technology is such that we, as a group, can share realtime opinions and viewpoints, though we be so separated geographically, ideologically, etc.

It's a blessing to be alive right now. No other group of people have been able to observe such momentous prophetic events taking place. I love reading writings on prophecy from 100+ years ago, before Israel was a physical nation again, and seeing how certain they were that Israel would be reborn, because that was what the word of God told them. And then it happened. Amazing and inexplicable to those who don't know God's promises.

If Kushner wasn't a Jew, I would wonder about him in the role of the one who comes in his own name.

Why would his being Jewish preclude him from being a candidate for one who comes in his own name?

I don't think he will be a Jew, which would probably be the best reason why he won't be looked on as the Messiah. Revelation 13 says he is the beast that will come from the sea. Don't picture Godzilla. The sea is a term that is used to signify the gentile nations. There are some other clues as well, pointing to his background as Roman or at least from one of the nations that was a part of the Roman empire. I can look into it more and give a further answer if you're interested.

Regardless, Israel and the other nations are primed for such a man, and such a peace treaty.

Agreed. It is one of the burning issues of the hour.

I can think of no other good reason why the world is consumed by the status of Jerusalem, than that a spiritual battle is being fought over it.

 

[Lisa]

All I know is that people are going to feel silly if the Rapture comes while they are on V.C.

Haha, wouldn’t worry about that happening

 

[Thunderian]

I am always happy to discuss things with you, Serveto. Your posts are concise and even if we don't agree, your line of reasoning is easy to follow and respond to, and I appreciate that.

 

[Daciple]

Again, nothing like this was available to Old Testament saints. If it was, you need to show where and how if you continue to insist there is no difference between our salvation and theirs.

I acknowledged that the Holy Spirit operated differently, but I still believe that they were saved identically to us, by Faith thru Grace in the Messiah. I agree they didnt have the indwelling of the Spirit but I dont think that one aspect is what qualifies or disqualifies one from being apart of the Church or the Body of Christ, or the Temple of God all synonymous for the body of believers saved by Jesus. The difference I am beginning to see is that we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that allows us to follow Gods Commands, where as they didnt have the helper and thus couldnt actually keep the Commands thus they were under Law to keep them adhering to what God Willed.

I guess I look at the bottom line, are they going to Heaven? If so then why exclude them from the Bride, the Church? The Church is simply an extension of Israel plain and simple, which is why in the post you have yet to address I made the arguments that Gentiles are grafted INTO Israel and NOT that Israel is grafted INTO the New Testament Believers. IDK maybe you would like to take the time to address that post? Or I guess since you are more willing to converse now, I should restate those questions again?

I'm pretty sure I have stated that we will all be one body one day.

The language is NOT of a Future state it is of a Present state, the ONE Body exists NOW, can you point to this being Future?

The Church isn't mentioned in the Old Testament, the method of salvation is different in the Old Testament, and Paul spells out gifts and callings for the body of New Testament believers, which he calls the Church, that are unlike anything given or commanded to Old Testament saints, and it's MY job to show how the Church is different and doesn't include Old Testament saints? I would say you are the one who who has your work cut out for you.

So what is the Church? Is it those who believe in Jesus the Messiah? Is it those called out from the World?

The believers of Israel, they believed in the Messiah, Israel itself was called out from the World they are fundamentally in the same identical position. If you take the LXX or the Greek Old Testament, guess what the Children of Israel are called dozens and dozens of times, Ekklesia, aka the Church or the called out ones. There are over 250 times that the Ekklesia, is mentioned in the Old Testament.

All you are speaking of is the Work of the Holy Spirit in the believers, given freely to all, in power. Would you say none of these Gifts or Powers can be shown in people in the Old Testament? If so then the only real difference is that now ALL have access to the Holy Spirit instead of a few, and THAT is a fulfillment of Scripture for Israel in the New Covenant. But since you mention these supposed "differences" lets look at some direct parallels...

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Israel and the Church are both called chosen, peculiar, holy, a nation, kingdom, and priests. So with that in mind do you actually accept in Faith that you Thunder belong right NOW to the Kingdom of Christ, that you are apart of a Holy Nation, that you are a peculiar treasure, that you are the Chosen of God, that you are a Priest in this Kingdom and Nation? If so then you are exactly the same as those who believed in the Messiah before He came and they are STILL a part of this Kingdom and Nation. If not then why not?

I can start quoting dozens of identical traits between Israel and the Church but lets start here, why are we different when we share the identical aspects of Israel?

but we are made so at salvation,

And those in Israel when they were saved by Faith thru Grace and died were they not made perfect because of the Blood shed before the beginning of time? Do you believe David and the Patriarchs, were they saved? How exactly did they keep their Salvation? Was it thru works or by Grace thru Faith? Did they become spotless in the Blood or has only those after Christ been made spotless?

I can give you a hint, if they arent spotless and covered by the Blood of the Lamb then they can not be in Heaven with God...

I must ask again, when did Old Testament saints become part of the body of Christ, if we are in Christ and there is no difference between us and them?

I cant give you a specific time but I accept what the Word of God states very clearly about that:

1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I accept this as the Truth, these Scriptures are clear and I personally need to stop twisting or ignoring what they say to fit some preconceived ideology. These Scriptures say definitively that the Gentiles were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and that by Christs Blood we have been made to be fitted into ISRAEL, and that both the believers in Israel and the believers of the Gentiles make ONE Body in Christ. This ONE Body is called the CHURCH, but the CHURCH is actually the inclusion of the Gentiles INTO the promises of ISRAEL.

I know you believe 100% that Jesus is the cornerstone of the Church, however we clearly see that the PROPHETS are part of the FOUNDATION aka the Prophets are part of the Church in fact they are what HOLDS it up!! As I stated before the Gentiles were grafted into Israel and the combination of believers from Israel and the Gentiles make up the Church. The Church isnt new, all the believers in Israel were the called out ones of the World, aka the Ekklesia and now the Gentiles have access to the same exact promises and fold as those who believed and lived in Israel. THAT is the Body of Christ, all believers...

I have to assume that you believe that Christ lived in them as well, so why would it be possible for him to leave them and not us?

That is an incorrect assumption, the operation of the Holy Spirit was different, we have been over this, but anyone who ever has been or ever will be is saved ONLY by Grace thru Faith in the Messiah. I hope you dont believe that just because someone was born in Israel they went to Heaven!

Not all of Israel is Israel, what does this mean to you?

Israel is not the bride of Christ. The Church is.

So you really didnt answer my question concerning if God is Polygamous.There are definitely Scriptures that say that Israel IS the Bride of God and that He will RESTORE Her and will NOT annul the marriage contract He made with Her! How on Earth do you deal with all these Scriptures?

Either God is a liar who breaks His own word, or He MUST be Polygamous in having 2 Brides or Wives. Here are the Scriptures that say clearly that Israel is Gods Wife/Bride and that He will Redeem Her...

Jer 2:2 Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown.

Is 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

Hos 2:15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
16 And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

I can quote many more but these will suffice to make my point, Israel IS married to God plain and simple, and Hosea shows this the best, that even after all the whoredom Israel went thru He will turn them back to Himself and they will call Him MY HUSBAND and God will marry them FOREVER and they will be married in Righteousness, Judgement, Lovingkindness, Mercy and Faithfulness. How exactly do you think God does this?

See the problem is people think THAT is in the Future, but it is not, JESUS is the method by which Israel turned back to God, it is by JESUS that Israel (the believers in the Messiah not the Nation, for not all of Israel is Israel) has been betrothed back to God, it is by JESUS that Israel will come in Righteousness, Judgement, Lovingkindness, Mercy and Faithfulness!! There is NOT some Carnal fulfillment of this, which is literally what all of this Dispensationalism is, Carnal thinking, Carnal desires, it is the Spiritual Fulfillment found in Christ Jesus who has ALREADY turned back Israel (the believers for not all Israel is Israel) and it is HE who has betrothed them!!

So either Israel and the Church are the same entity or God clear has 2 wives at some point and yeah that is NOT possible, my God isnt a Polygamous...

One last thing to show EXACTLY who the Bride is:

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Who do you think is in this city brother? Do you think the Old Testament Saints are there? The fact is, this Bride of Christ is ALL THE BELIEVERS OF ALL TIME, and we know this because both the 12 Tribes and the 12 Apostles are spoken of, this is fullness of EVERY believer and THAT is the Bride of Christ, but if you want to say the believers from Israel are NOT part of the Church or the Bride then I guess you dont actually believe this...

Israel is a nation chosen by God and sustained by covenant promises (Deut. 7:6-9). Not all individuals in this chosen nation are saved (Rom. 9:6; 11:28).

The Church is a called out assembly of believers who have been baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). Every member of the body of Christ is saved, though there are multitudes of professing Christians who may not be saved (2 Tim. 2:19).

So they are literally the same thing, Israel is ACTUALLY the believers that is truly what Israel is, just as in the thing called the Church there are those who are actually believers and non believers, but the believers are the CHURCH.

All the believers in Israel and all the believers in Church are saved... This is an understanding of Election, Israel was the Election but the believers are the actual Elect, and now because of Christ all are included in the Election but only the believers are the Elect. Point being believers before the Cross are called Israel, believers after the Cross called the Church...

Israel traces its origin to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob being the father of the twelve tribes).

The Church traces its origin to the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) when believers were first placed into the body of Christ.

No sir, what is the foundation of the Church again according to Scripture and not preconceived ideologies?

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The Prophets clearly are part of the Church, they are right there next to Jesus!! Unless of course you want to say Jesus being the cornerstone IN the Foundation isnt actually part of the Church. The Church goes back to Abraham, actually further but we will say Abraham..

In God’s program for Israel, His witnesses comprised a nation (Isaiah 43:10).

In God’s program for the Church, His witnesses are among all nations (Acts 1:8).

Yes God established that Nation to witness to the surrounding Nations then fulfilled all the Scriptures He gave about expanding Israel to encompass the Gentiles...

Hosea 2;23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.

[QUOTE="Thunderian, post: 82821, member: 22"]God’s program for Israel centered in Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37) and will again center in Jerusalem during the Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-20) and during the Millennium (Isa. 2:1-5).

God’s program for His Church began in Jerusalem and extended to the uttermost parts of the earth (Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8). The Church is identified with the risen Christ, not with any earthly city.

The hope and expectancy of Israel was earthly, centering in the establishment of the Kingdom of the Messiah foretold by the prophets (Jer. 23:5-8; Isa. 2:1-5; 11:1-16).

The hope and expectancy of the Church is heavenly, centering in the glorious appearing of Christ to take His people to heaven (John 14:1-3; Phil. 3:20-21; Col. 3:1-4; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).[/QUOTE]

For brevity sake I am not going to go thru and address all of that, but I believe this in fact a massive misunderstanding of what Gods Plan was, the more I learn and pray about this, the more I am seeing that Jesus fulfilled the ACTUAL Prophecies concerning Israel. That you and all the dispensationalists are identical to the Jews and Pharisees of Jesus time in the aspect that BOTH of you want to see Carnal Fulfillment of these Prophecies when Christ has fulfilled ALL of this via His Life Death and Resurrection. The Kingdom of David is NOW, it is has been established in Christ, He really doesnt NEED to come to a Carnal Israel and do anything to fulfill anything in Prophecies.

We need to stop looking for Carnal fulfillment and LIVE in the actual Spiritual Fulfillment that Christ has brought, how many are missing out on what Christ has because they are looking for a Carnal fulfillment? The same as how many missed Christ in the First Place because they were expecting some Carnal fulfillment...

God’s purpose and program for Israel was revealed in the Old Testament Scriptures.

God’s purpose and program for the Church was not revealed in the Old Testament, but was revealed by the New Testament apostles and prophets (Eph. 3:5).

In correct, it was revealed in the Old Testament, Jesus is the REVELATOR He REVEALED what was hidden in the Old Testament. Search the Scriptures for they attest to ME!!! It was made more clearly to be seen in the New Testament, it is nonsense to say that the purpose of the Church isnt in the OT. Pour out my Spirit, all Nations shall worship me, Restore Israel, be a light to the Gentiles ect ect ect....

Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 70 weeks or 490 years) involved animal sacrifices. These years will include the tribulation. Israel’s millennial history will involve the same (Ezek. 43:27).

The Church’s history does not involve animal sacrifices. Messiah’s sacrifice is commemorated by means of the Lord’s Table.

Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years including also the Tribulation) involves a temple in Jerusalem. The same will be true in the Millennium (Ezek. chapters 40-48).

If there is no Millennium then none of that is True now is it? Huge concepts to speak about so much so that I cant get into all of it, but one example is, who is the Temple of the Lord? Stephen got murdered for denouncing the need of a Temple because Christ has come might want to keep that in mind...

During Israel’s history (the 490 years of Daniel 9:24 which also includes the Tribulation) the ethnic makeup of the world is bipartite: Jews and Gentiles. This division of all people into Jews and Gentiles will also apply to those in the Millennial Kingdom in natural bodies.

During the Church age from Pentecost to the Rapture the ethnic makeup of the world is tripartite: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God (1 Cor. 10:32), the Church being composed of saved Jews and Gentiles united together in one Body (Eph. 2:15; 3:6).

Again I disagree, not all Israel is Israel so you had Believers in God in Israel (Church) ethnic Jews who didnt believe and Gentiles, same thing now...

During the Church age every true believer is a priest and able to offer spiritual sacrifices to the Lord (Heb. 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6). Whereas Israel had a priesthood, the Church is a priesthood.

Yes the Kingdom has come and the Priesthood was transferred and all were given access to the Priesthood, the similarity is there is a Priesthood to do the Will of God in both...

Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years) will terminate with the coming of the Messiah to the earth to establish His Kingdom reign.

The Church’s history will end at the Rapture of the Church when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (1 Thess. 4:13-18; Rom. 11:25).

So National Israel is done but True Israel the believers absorbed the Gentiles and thus we have the Church and it all ends at the same time when Christ comes back, there is no secret Rapture, there is no time just for the Jews and there is probably no Earthly Kingdom. It all ends when Christ comes back...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The day of the Lord is literally going to cause the elements to melt, and then comes the New Heaven and New Earth, getting hard for me to believe that there will be a literal Earth left after He comes back if the elements themselves are completely destroyed...

The day of the Lord is when Jesus comes back so we dont twist anything...

Believing Jews prior to Pentecost, believing Jews during the tribulation, and believing Jews during the Kingdom reign of Christ are not members of the body of Christ.

According to Scripture and not preconceived ideologies, yes they are...

When was this passage in Jeremiah 31 fulfilled?

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Do you really not think Jesus fulfilled this Prophecy? Do you really not think Jesus ushered in the Covenant spoken of in Jer 31?

The Promise made to Israel
Jeremiah 31:31

• "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

The fulfillment was in Israel, The Church
Luke 22:20

• "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the New Covenant in My blood, which is shed for you."

And in case any of the various millennial groups should look for ways to rationalize this away, God directly speaks about the passage of Jeremiah 31:31 in Hebrews chapter 8, and goes on in Hebrews chapter 9-10 to make it absolutelyclear that this New Covenant with Israel is the New Covenant with the Church. i.e., it's fulfilled prophecy according to God's Word. The Lord "has" made a New Covenant with Israel, not will, and He's strengthened it in His blood (Hebrews 9:16-18).
The New Covenant with Israel and all the implications of the millennial reign are particularly problematic for the Premillennialists, because Jeremiah 31 is unquestionably addressed to Israel, and the commentary upon it in Hebrews chapters 8-10 make it clear that it's the New Covenant Congregation. Read those chapters for yourself and see if that passage of Jeremiah 31 of the promise to Israel was referring to the New Covenant dispensation of the Church. Once again, the solid foundation in God's Word, and the accuracy and consistency of Amillennialism, triumphs Biblically.[9] study, so I won't go heavily into that here. Other Bible Studies relating to it are also available in the eschatology section of this site. They all show that it is quite evident that the New Covenant with the Church is the New Covenant God prophesied Christ would come and establish with Israel.

[QUOTE="Thunderian, post: 82821, member: 22"]I believe in the restoration of Israel physically because God has promised it. How are you able to not believe in it?[/QUOTE]

Because I have stopped reading Scripture from a preconceived dispensationalist viewpoint and have been letting Scripture say what it says and view it from a different light and it is starting to make more sense that 1) dispensationalism has no roots in the Early Church 2) dispensationalism has a very Carnal outlook on everything and thus is literally identical to the Pharisees and the Jews in their desire to see their Nation rule the Earth which is one main reason they rejected Jesus cuz He didnt come to do that, EVER 3) Jesus fulfilled pretty much EVERYTHING concerning Israel written in the Old Testament.

If we continue the dialogue eventually we will begin to deconstruct dispensationalism and if we see the flaws in that well we will see the flaws in everything you accept as True concerning Eschatology...

The Bible is clear about the difference between Israel and the Church, and I will be more than happy to continue to show you scripture that proves this.

And I will be more than happy to show that while there is differences in the operation of Israel and the Church, the believers of the Messiah in Israel are in the Church, the Body of Christ ect...

 

[Thunderian]

Dude, I can never respond to that much text. You continue to restate your position and I can only continue to restate mine.

 

[Daciple]

Dude, I can never respond to that much text. You continue to restate your position and I can only continue to restate mine.

Lol ok bud...

 

[Lisa]

It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. Revelation 13:7

So...yes there will be Christians in the great tribulation. Christians now would rather it be newbie Christians rather than themselves. Another one of those God wouldn’t do that to us things, I suppose?

 

[TokiEl]

I believe it is a reference to the antichrist.

Daniel writes:

Daniel 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
​

"He" is the antichrist. The covenant is a treaty that will allow Israel to live in peace and will have some component that will allow the rebuilding of the Temple. The treaty will be for seven years (one week of years), but at the midway point, the antichrist will go into the Temple and stop the sacrifices that have been restarted, and declare himself to be God. The Bible says that instead of accepting him, the Jews will flee into the desert, so clearly this is not acceptance.

"He" is the captain/ruler/prince of the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary. And we know those were the Romans and so "He" is a captain/ruler/prince of Rome and that must be the Pope who is probably "the Antichrist" in the Epistles of John.

The covenant confirmation is probably not a peace treaty between the Pope and Israel but between the Pope and "many" as in the United Nations. And on September 25 2015 the Pope confirmed a covenant about global governance in the United Nations.

And that begins the 70th and last week of Daniel's prophecy and "in the midst of the week" something goes wrong and destruction come on the wing of abominations which i think is nuclear war within one year.

But i do not think the Pope who is most likely the Antichrist is the same as "the little horn" in Daniel 7 who uproots three of the ten kings in the endtime Beast system.