The Rapture

[Red Sky at Morning]

Tribe of Dan was not included because of idolatry that lasted roughly 500 years

Judges 18:14-31 KJV
Then answered the five men that went to spy out the country of Laish, and said unto their brethren, Do ye know that there is in these houses an ephod, and teraphim, and a graven image, and a molten image? now therefore consider what ye have to do. [15] And they turned thitherward, and came to the house of the young man the Levite, even unto the house of Micah, and saluted him. [16] And the six hundred men appointed with their weapons of war, which were of the children of Dan, stood by the entering of the gate. [17] And the five men that went to spy out the land went up, and came in thither, and took the graven image, and the ephod, and the teraphim, and the molten image: and the priest stood in the entering of the gate with the six hundred men that were appointed with weapons of war. [18] And these went into Micah's house, and fetched the carved image, the ephod, and the teraphim, and the molten image. Then said the priest unto them, What do ye? [19] And they said unto him, Hold thy peace, lay thine hand upon thy mouth, and go with us, and be to us a father and a priest: is it better for thee to be a priest unto the house of one man, or that thou be a priest unto a tribe and a family in Israel? [20] And the priest's heart was glad, and he took the ephod, and the teraphim, and the graven image, and went in the midst of the people. [21] So they turned and departed, and put the little ones and the cattle and the carriage before them. [22] And when they were a good way from the house of Micah, the men that were in the houses near to Micah's house were gathered together, and overtook the children of Dan. [23] And they cried unto the children of Dan. And they turned their faces, and said unto Micah, What aileth thee, that thou comest with such a company? [24] And he said, Ye have taken away my gods which I made, and the priest, and ye are gone away: and what have I more? and what is this that ye say unto me, What aileth thee? [25] And the children of Dan said unto him, Let not thy voice be heard among us, lest angry fellows run upon thee, and thou lose thy life, with the lives of thy household. [26] And the children of Dan went their way: and when Micah saw that they were too strong for him, he turned and went back unto his house. [27] And they took the things which Micah had made, and the priest which he had, and came unto Laish, unto a people that were at quiet and secure: and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and burnt the city with fire. [28] And there was no deliverer, because it was far from Zidon, and they had no business with any man; and it was in the valley that lieth by Beth-rehob. And they built a city, and dwelt therein. [29] And they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father, who was born unto Israel: howbeit the name of the city was Laish at the first. [30] And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land. [31] And they set them up Micah's graven image, which he made, all the time that the house of God was in Shiloh.

And on the question of Ephraim, I came across something extremely interesting that again potentially acts as another type or pattern of the Church, as does its omission in the list of the 144,000 .. (Taken from http://www.biblebigpicture.com/biblelessons/spiritualinheritanceofephraim.htm)

THE SPIRITUAL INHERITANCE OF EPHRAIM - A Meaningful Metaphorical Interpretation

The following scripture concerning Ephraim is hidden manna concerning those who are born of God.

Jeremiah 31:9 - They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

"I am Israel's father"- This scripture refers to spiritual offspring. Even as Jacob is the father of natural Israel, God is the Father of spiritual Israel, the spiritual descendantsof Abraham, which includes Gentiles.

Why Did God Call Ephraim His Firstborn Son?

Christ is the firstborn from among the dead - Colossians 1:18 (KJV) - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (Also, see Hebrews 1:6; Revelations 4:5).

Each Christian is considered to be firstborn - Romans 8:29 (KJV) - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The church is considered to be firstborn - Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) - But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect....

Ephraim is firstborn because he represents Christians who are the general assembly of the firstborn church and the first to be harvested from the earth, according to God's agenda for the gospel. Ephraim represents the firstborn spiritual offspring of God through Christ, according to Jeremiah.

When God sees Ephraim as His firstborn son, He sees Ephraim and Christ as one entity. Why? Because Christ is the firstborn and Ephraim is firstborn, then they are one, unified in the body of Christ. Remember, the mystery of the gospel is to bring Jew and Gentile together into one body as heirs of God (Ephesians 3:6). If the head is the Firstborn, so is the body. Therefore, Ephraim figuratively represents the first harvest (firstborn) of believers united as one with Christ under the New Blood Covenant.

To be a firstborn son of God one must be born of Christ because Christ is the beginning of eternal life in the spiritual realm - John 3:3 (KJV) - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Therefore, Jeremiah's prophecy is concerned with those Gentiles (Ephraim) born to God under the New Blood Covenant. There can be no other interpretation to Jeremiah's prophesy that "Ephraim is my firstborn son

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Revelation 7:1-4

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

I want to first clarify verse 4 specifically says… “… of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” This is the confirmation of Paul the apostle’s words in the book of Romans (specifically verse 11:26) where Paul says… “…so all Israel shall be saved.” This sealing of the 144,000 is indeed all the tribes of the children of Israel becoming saved. Note that Revelation 7:1-8 omits the tribes of Ephraim and Dan yet includes the tribe of Joseph. Joseph, who per Genesis 48:22 has been granted…”…one portion above thy brethren,” is thus substituted in the place of Ephraim and Dan (leaving the tribe of Manasseh standing alone v. 6– Dan replacing Manasseh’s portion and honor under Joseph, especially with regard to the end time blessing of Genesis 49:18… “… I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord.” Wherever you see Joseph’s name in the scriptures (among the tribes of the children of Israel), he is automatically allotted a double portion. Thus, Joseph’s name included in Revelation 7:8 (within all the tribes of the Children of Israel v. 4) must by default represent a double portion or in this case, two tribes (Ephraim and Dan). But back to Revelation 7:1-4. We need to focus on the restraining of the last 4 angels who have specific power… “…to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea.” The above Bible verse clearly reveals the 144,000 firstfruits are saved and sealed before the judgment of God commences on the earth. This equates to the obvious placement (or timeframe) of exactly when the 144,000 firstfruits get sealed. Since earthly judgments are restrained until after the 144,000 firstfruits get sealed, it is safe to say that they are indeed sealed right before the last half of the great tribulation, or the time of Jacob’s trouble. This again reinforces that the 144,000 firstfruits are the same people as the “woman” who gives birth to her Messiah in Revelation 12. It all points to Israel because Revelation 12 obviously shows Israel is saved and then is given “eagles wings” so she can flee the persecution of the antichrist and be nourished by God during the great tribulation (1260 days (v. 6) or 3½ years (v. 14)). It all points to the fact the 144,000 firstfruits are saved and flee before Jacob’s trouble. Then, after they are sealed and consequently carried away safely to Petra, then the final 3½ years commence where the angles now have full authority to harm the earth and sea. At that time the remnant of Israel who rejected the testimony of the two witnesses will realize their error. They will then humble themselves, repent and accept Jesus as Messiah and consequently become martyred in Jerusalem. The rest of Israel who is not part of either the remnant or the 144,000 firstfruits will receive the same fate as those who reject Jesus’ commandment to endure. They will indeed align with the antichrist and perish.

Daniel 12:1, Jeremiah 30:7

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

I also have a 3 video teaching on YouTube called "Dream 4-2013 / Tribe of Dan" You should watch those videos because they brings further clarification as to why God has not forgotten about the tribe of Dan.

And before you come against this post without watching these videos be prepared to defend your position based on only scripture. If it's not in the KJV Bible I don't want to hear it.

I don't want to do 'battle' over long posts! You do make some well argued points and I confess I hadn't looked into the 144,000 in the same depth as you, so I defer to a perspective with more time at Bible school than me!!

God bless

http://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-mysterious-144000/

 

[Thunderian]

I have to ask the same question to you, Scott, that I asked earlier in the thread. Is the nation of Israel in the Millennium just a bunch of bachelors, then?

Transfigured bachelors, at that?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

As a general point and not by way of a 'reply' to anyone, has anyone watched the World Cup? When the game goes into extra time, the players on the pitch seldom waste their energy trying to second guess whether the ref is about to blow his whistle or let the game go into golden goal... Its the refs decision how much time he adds on. The players job is to do what they can whilst on the pitch.

It could be argued that the Bible opaque over the issue of the timing of any 'catching away' and that this might constitute a bit of a 'mystery'. Interesting to try to crack if you can, certainly worth looking in to, but not one worth exhausting yourself over when the ball is still in play.

There are people out there who really need to understand John 3:16...

 

[Fleur D'Amour]

I believe in the post-tribulation theory and not quite the secret rapture because I see that the Bible shows evidence of such.

For example, Noah and his family were rescued through the flood-- they weren't taken away from it.

The Hebrews were shielded from the 10 plagues, they weren't taken from it.

Daniel was saved while in the midst of the lions in their den, not from it.

It seems the Bible, through stories of its patriarchs, prophets, etc., that God helps/protects his people through their trials and in some instances he takes them away completely (i.e. Lot and his family).

So for the end times, I believe God will shield us from the plagues, not necessarily bring us up and out of it.

There is a rapture, but that is when Jesus comes from the clouds to carry us up in heaven, and it won't be secret.

 

[Thunderian]

Hi Fleur, thanks for posting in this thread.

The Bible says that the rapture takes place in an instant, but the second coming of Jesus is something that has a rather long buildup and whole raft of signs that accompany it. It certainly won't be secret, but that's not the only difference between the rapture and his second coming.

At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

The second coming occurs after the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

The common thread of rapture types in the Old Testament is that believers escape wrath, but they all see it taking place, sometimes in close proximity. There is no scripture that says believers, other than the 144,000 sealed from the nation of Israel, are protected from anything occurring on earth during the Tribulation. If they are protected from the judgments, why wouldn't God go all the way and make them completely immortal? But the Bible talks about the many that are martyred during the Tribulation.

Do you hold to a pre-wrath rapture view? Scott Christopher Shuman has started a thread defending it.

The big problem with any other view of the rapture is that they leave no one left alive at the end of the Tribulation to repopulate the earth in the manner described in the Bible. Scripture says the earth will be inhabited by humans during a thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ and his saints. The subjects that inhabit the earth during this time are clearly mortal, so they can't be transfigured believers, and since God's word also says that no unbeliever will enter into his millennial reign on earth, the pre-wrath view has to be discarded as unworkable.

 

[Karlysymon]

Why are the elite in a rush to usher in the Second Coming? Are they in tip-top spiritual form? Just wondering....

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/02/evangelical-christians-want-to-start-wwiii-to-speed-the-second-coming-and-atheist-neocons-are-using-religion-to-rile-them-up-to-justify-war-against-iran.html

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Why are the elite in a rush to usher in the Second Coming? Are they in tip-top spiritual form? Just wondering....

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/02/evangelical-christians-want-to-start-wwiii-to-speed-the-second-coming-and-atheist-neocons-are-using-religion-to-rile-them-up-to-justify-war-against-iran.html

Very interesting and disturbing! Perhaps there is method in the madness though - as a Skull & Bones Society member Bush himself is about as much an Evangelical Christian as Albert Pike!

I think what is at stake here is that the gap between what the general public think Christians believe about the Last Days, and what they really believe is very wide. Pre-trib believers expect a 'Rapture' or sudden catching away of the Church and those who seriously believe this view are much more concerned with being about the work we are supposed to be (as we will be asked what we did with our time) than trying to force a prophecy to occur (which would have no bearing on the Rapture anyway). On the other hand your mid, pre-wrath and post-trib Christians would rather not go into the Tribulation any sooner than need be, I would imagine!!!!

As an aside the actual article shows a very poor understanding of Revelation as the Gog and Magog war to which Bush appears to be referring to cannot take place till the end of the Millennium, so at least 1000 years away!!!

On the other side, Luciferians also know about Bible prophecy, and it seems interesting to me that they may be planning a twist on the Ezekiel 38 war... If it happens it would be the 'fault of all those Evangelicals and their stupid book' - What better way to bring 'Order out of Chaos', persecute Christians and dissolve the religious and political systems we have now into a melting pot of 'one-ness' and a global 'religion' that everyone apart from those narrow, warmongering Evangelicals can buy into...

Just a thought...

 

[Thunderian]

Why are the elite in a rush to usher in the Second Coming? Are they in tip-top spiritual form? Just wondering....

I read the article and followed the links in it. There is so much bad information there that I wouldn't encourage anyone to waste any time on it. Do you stand by it?

The Rapture will happen on God's timing, and there is nothing that anyone can do to affect it. Articles like the one you've posted take a lot of disparate information, out of context quotes and really, really bad interpretations of scripture and ball them up into something that no one takes seriously except people who don't know anything about the topics discussed.

For instance, citing John Hagee as an example of the kind of Christian leader who is driving some sort of pre-Trib, Zionist movement ignores that a pre-Trib Rapture has been taught since the early days of the Church, in a time much closer to the destruction of the nation of Israel than it's rebirth, and the pre-Trib view is believed and taught in churches all over the world, by millions of Christians in Asia, Africa and Europe who don't know John Hagee from a hole in the ground.

Don't listen to what anyone says, but what the Bible says. The Bible tells us that no man knows the day or hour when Jesus will return, so no matter how many tours of Israel John Hagee conducts, or how many people voted for Bush, or who bombs who, Jesus will come back at the hour the Father in Heaven appoints, and not a second before.

 

[Karlysymon]

For those who believe that the mark of the beast will be some kind of chip (i don't ), i thought this might interest them. Here is Regina Dugan, former head of DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency).

I briefly mentioned her in my thread "Era of the Child". When she left for Google and 'naturally' left for Facebook, she said "we got to do alot of epic shit while at DARPA". That epic shit includes electronic tattoos. Like the one she is sporting

and; a pill that can be ingested and then battery- powered with stomach acid to produce an 18-bit internal signal. After that, the swallower’s whole body becomes a password.
https://www.wired.com/2016/04/regina-dugan-leaves-google-for-facebook/
@Red Sky
the evangelical mainstream belief regarding Ezekiel 38 is that Gog and Magog are Russia and Iran. One has to wonder then if those countries and their hordes will exist the same way they do now after the millenium (Rev 20). A fake christ appearing in the sky will necessitate a 'fake armageddon'.

 

[Karlysymon]

The Christian body cannot come up with a consesus amongst themselves on how these very important events are going to play out. Everyone believes their view is the correct one: pre-trib, mid, post, you name it. And its troubling because we cannot all be right. There can't be 2, 3, or 5 truths. There can only be one truth. That would mean that many people are going to be massively disappointed. If we don't hold a single view now, would it be a stretch to ask if the same thing happened before Christ's first advent? Afterall, he didn't come as many expected yet the scriptures were as clear as day. We too have the scriptures but there are a multitude of 'truths' on events around the Second Advent. The priests who rejected him had a chance to come around (Acts 6;7) after His ascencion. I doubt we will be afforded that opportunity.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The Christian body cannot come up with a consesus amongst themselves on how these very important events are going to play out. Everyone believes their view is the correct one: pre-trib, mid, post, you name it. And its troubling because we cannot all be right. There can't be 2, 3, or 5 truths. There can only be one truth. That would mean that many people are going to be massively disappointed. If we don't hold a single view now, would it be a stretch to ask if the same thing happened before Christ's first advent? Afterall, he didn't come as many expected yet the scriptures were as clear as day. We too have the scriptures but there are a multitude of 'truths' on events around the Second Advent. The priests who rejected him had a chance to come around (Acts 6;7) after His ascencion. I doubt we will be afforded that opportunity.

Hi, interesting observations, I wonder as you mentioned on your previous post what you think the Mark of the Beast will be - I have my own guesses as well, things that might not have been imaginable five years ago.

I'm glad you brought up the question of pre, mid, pre-wrath and post trib - much annoyance and defensiveness can be generated as it is not entirely straightforward which is the right interpretation. Lest we despair over it, think about how the Church was a mystery in the Old Testement, how different people have different interpretations of baptism, covering of the head in church and other doubtful matters... We are told to avoid foolish disputing.

I have stayed away from some of the debate as it is so easy to get into the minutiae of exactly what one particular verse might mean.

For me, the gist of the message is Daniel 3...

16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. 18 But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”

I hope the Church is raptured before the Tribulation. My theology supports this view. However, when I see Christians lined up and murdered for their faith in Jesus, I know that is something I may face, even before the Great Tribulation. If I have to go through and God has brought me and my family into this world for such a time as this, then I will sell my life as dearly as I can attacking the forces of Satan and trying to reach whoever would listen.

What I would like to happen is no longer the issue. Job suffered. Our God is sovereign. If I am raptured before it starts and you believe and follow Jesus, I will see you at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. If the Antichrist confirms a peace treaty with the nations surrounding Israel we will be looking at least at mid-trib and perhaps pre-wrath and I would stock up my pantry with dry goods and buy some guns!.. My theology doesn't tell me this but if it were the case it would fall under verse 18.

But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.

Does that make sense?

God bless

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The Christian body cannot come up with a consesus amongst themselves on how these very important events are going to play out. Everyone believes their view is the correct one: pre-trib, mid, post, you name it. And its troubling because we cannot all be right. There can't be 2, 3, or 5 truths. There can only be one truth. That would mean that many people are going to be massively disappointed. If we don't hold a single view now, would it be a stretch to ask if the same thing happened before Christ's first advent? Afterall, he didn't come as many expected yet the scriptures were as clear as day. We too have the scriptures but there are a multitude of 'truths' on events around the Second Advent. The priests who rejected him had a chance to come around (Acts 6;7) after His ascencion. I doubt we will be afforded that opportunity.

While not getting closer to a consensus answer here, your use of the prophecies coming up to the appearance of Jesus are well noticed. I think some prophecies only become clear in the rear-view mirror!

I think it's great to look into all things prophetic - its like being given the last few pages of a book and as you approach what you think could be the climax of the story, you start to make connections as to possible ways it might all come together.

I sometimes consider the caveat in Habakuk 1:5 when I start to think I have it all figured out...

"Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you"

With that in mind I try to have an awareness if what a variety of scenarios look like and hold my convictions on things not essential to salvation a little more lightly (not to say that I don't think them true, but I know that 'I see through a glass darkly')

God bless

 

[KoncreteMind]

As a general point and not by way of a 'reply' to anyone, has anyone watched the World Cup? When the game goes into extra time, the players on the pitch seldom waste their energy trying to second guess whether the ref is about to blow his whistle or let the game go into golden goal... Its the refs decision how much time he adds on. The players job is to do what they can whilst on the pitch.

Thats a great analogy Red... Kudos

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Thats a great analogy Red... Kudos

Thanks KM - I always think in analogies and stories even when I really don't need to. Serves me right for reading too many allegorical books!!!

 

[Thunderian]

Well said, Red Sky. These debates don't need to be contentious by any means, but for some reason they tend to get that way. However, Karly and I have had an exhaustive discussion on End Times matters at another board and have managed to keep it together and been rewarded for it.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Well said, Red Sky. These debates don't need to be contentious by any means, but for some reason they tend to get that way. However, Karly and I have had an exhaustive discussion on End Times matters at another board and have managed to keep it together and been rewarded for it.

Which forum? I will have to check it out. We did Revelation in an 18 month Bible study at our Church and I really enjoyed the debate, which was very respectful.

 

[Thunderian]

I sent you the link by PM.

 

[Karlysymon]

Hi RSM,
the beast is clearly a religious entity and allegiance to it and its dogma is to take its mark. Dogma that is in direct opposition to God. Just as people will take the mark, so will God's people bear His seal in their foreheads. Again, for me, it won't be something we can see physically. Our spiritual allegiances will, naturally, be born out by our actions. To be honest, it was a first for me to hear about mid-trib or pre-wrath.....
I think its prudent for every Christian to keep it at the back of their mind that there is a huge chance that they'll be disappointed. It isn't without precedent. Let's imagine a 44 BC and 1st century Palestine Hollywood. I guess they would stage plays about how the glorious King would descend to save and restore Israel. Plays endorsed by the renowned Rabbis. The day dawned and the Glorious King was born: to parents so poor, born in a manger surrounded by animals (must have smelled shitty). The PTB issue a death decree and the family escapes to Egypt. They later return but are still dirt poor. He is a carpenter and looks like the average human and is later crucified. Clearly, a story like this wasn't going to rake in denariis and folks wouldn't be streaming in droves to Palestine's WestEnd to watch that. And yet, thats how things played out. So whose fault was it (disappointment), as it was in the scriptures? Hollywood 'christian' movies are pre-trib inclined. Naturally, because its widely accepted. People will blame their pastor, mother, husband, bestfriend for the deception. Our eternal interests are at stake here and yet the truth on events that will seal our fate, for life or death, seems incomprehensible.

 

[Thunderian]

Don't forget the precedent of the removal of the righteous by God before his judgement on the wicked. Noah and Lot are two examples of this, and interestingly, Jesus mentions both these examples when he speaks of his return.

By comparison, can you list any examples from scripture that are just as clear of believers left to endure judgement?