The Rapture

[Daciple]

The Church is the body of believers who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This is only possible during the age of grace, which began in Acts 2 and ends with the Rapture.

Believers from other ages are not part of the bride of Christ, but will have eternal life. We will all be together.

Well if there is no Grace there is no Salvation at all, can you show me Scripture that says we can be Saved aka come to Christ without Grace?

Also can you show me where in Scripture those from Old Testament are not part of the Church? Throughout the Old Testament it continually calls those who believed in God, His Bride, the entire ideology of the Bride and Church is lifted from these Scriptures. How can one say that they are not part of the Bride of Christ?

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Jesus was with the Church in the wilderness aka the believers in God aka the children of Israel when Moses was on the mount receiving the Covenant (aka marriage contract) between Israel and God. If the Scripture calls Israel the Church why do you believe the Church didnt exist until Pentecost?

Also were the Gentiles grafted into Israel or was Israel grafted into the Gentiles?

Rom 11:
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

And concerning Grace and Salvation:

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

It is really really hard for me to not accept that Israel has obtained everything it was set up to receive, or that there is some other special plan for some future Israel apart from literally how everyone on Earth has obtained Salvation, which is by Faith thru Grace in Christ. By BELIEVING in Jesus and the Grace of God. According to these Scriptures God foreknew and retained a remnant of Israel that has inherited everything spoken of in Scripture. That the Church was found in the Wilderness with Moses, and that Israel was cut off for not believing in Christ, yet some have and thus the Scriptures are fulfilled in them. And just in case you quote All Israel shall be saved:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Who are the children of the promise?

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Not all of Israel would obtain the promise, only those who accepted in Faith Christ, whether it be in Faith of the Messiah to come or after He has come looking back in Faith. There will be zero people in Heaven that didnt get there by Grace thru Faith in Christ. Can you show me where in Scripture people get to Heaven without being a child of the Promise, which is somehow NOT by faith and belief in Christ?

 

[Thunderian]

Well if there is no Grace there is no Salvation at all, can you show me Scripture that says we can be Saved aka come to Christ without Grace?

I didn't say there was no grace before Jesus Christ. Believers have always been saved by faith, through God's grace, but during the Church age, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. How could that have been possible before his death, burial and resurrection?

Also can you show me where in Scripture those from Old Testament are not part of the Church? Throughout the Old Testament it continually calls those who believed in God, His Bride, the entire ideology of the Bride and Church is lifted from these Scriptures. How can one say that they are not part of the Bride of Christ?

The Old Testament saints are not part of the Church because the Church was not a thing when they were around. It's not until Ephesians 3 that we even learn about the mystery of the Church. How does one become a part of something that does not exist and wasn't even revealed?

The differences between God's bride, Israel, and the bride of Christ, the Church, are too many to go into here, but the chief of them is that Israel is referred to as the unfaithful wife of God, and the Church is the chaste and virgin bride of Jesus Christ. Very big difference.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Jesus was with the Church in the wilderness aka the believers in God aka the children of Israel when Moses was on the mount receiving the Covenant (aka marriage contract) between Israel and God. If the Scripture calls Israel the Church why do you believe the Church didnt exist until Pentecost?

The "Church" in the wilderness is not THE Church, but the assembly of Israel. Paul tells us that the Church was not revealed to anyone in the Old Testament, so clearly the church spoken of is not the body and bride of Christ.

Also were the Gentiles grafted into Israel or was Israel grafted into the Gentiles?

You know the answer as well as I do. I'm not sure where the question is coming from.

It is really really hard for me to not accept that Israel has obtained everything it was set up to receive,

They have not, and I didn't say that. God is not done with them yet, and there are still promises he made to them that will be fulfilled.

or that there is some other special plan for some future Israel apart from literally how everyone on Earth has obtained Salvation, which is by Faith thru Grace in Christ.

There's not, and I haven't said that, either.

According to these Scriptures God foreknew and retained a remnant of Israel that has inherited everything spoken of in Scripture.

There are still promises to inherit.

That the Church was found in the Wilderness with Moses,

Nope.

and that Israel was cut off for not believing in Christ,

The nation of Israel has been set aside until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.

yet some have and thus the Scriptures are fulfilled in them.

Believing Jews during the Church age become part of the Church. There is no difference in how they are saved at this time.

And just in case you quote All Israel shall be saved:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Who are the children of the promise?

You and I, and everyone else who believes are the children of the promise. All the promises made to mankind about a future Kingdom of God were originally made to Abraham. We are spiritual children of those promises.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Not all of Israel would obtain the promise, only those who accepted in Faith Christ, whether it be in Faith of the Messiah to come or after He has come looking back in Faith. There will be zero people in Heaven that didnt get there by Grace thru Faith in Christ. Can you show me where in Scripture people get to Heaven without being a child of the Promise, which is somehow NOT by faith and belief in Christ?

Show me one place in the Old Testament where a believer is saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Daciple]

How could that have been possible before his death, burial and resurrection?

By Faith in the Coming Messiah!!! Did they know the name Jesus? No but they definitely believed that there would be a Messiah that would deliver them!!! I mean even today the Jews are awaiting a Messiah are they not? Of course they rejected the True Messiah but has always been Faith in the Coming Messiah in which they were saved!!

The Sacrifices meant nothing without Faith that God was going to bring the Messiah to truly wipe away the Sins, the Old Testament says all the time that it is the FAITH behind the Sacrifices that actually brought Redemption. David clearly had FAITH in something besides himself to KNOW for sure that he would live to see his son again:

2 Sam 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

This is just one of many examples that show those who were saved in the Old Testament had FAITH in the Messiah to come, they understood that somehow this Messiah would Redeem them, and they understood the necessity of Blood Atonement...

They looked forward in Faith, we look back...

The Old Testament saints are not part of the Church because the Church was not a thing when they were around. It's not until Ephesians 3 that we even learn about the mystery of the Church. How does one become a part of something that does not exist and wasn't even revealed?

I disagree that the Church aka the believers in the Messiah and the Children of the Promise didnt exist until after Christ, thats my whole point. I dont differentiate between believers in the Coming Messiah and believers in the Revealed Messiah, they are in the same fold, of the same Pen all Sheep, all Children of the Promise, all making up the Church aka the Body of Believers in the Messiah aka Christ.

Do you not agree that all these terms are simply different terms for the same group of people? The Bride, the Church, Children of God, Children of the Promise, Sheep, Believers, Wheat, Called, Chosen, Elect, Foreknown, ect ect ect?

As for Eph 3, the entirety of the Gospel of Christ was a mystery, clearly the Gospel or aspects or parts were known to all the Prophets and Forefathers as they literally wrote all about it in the Old Testament.

Which in other ages was not made known unto, the sons of men,.... That is, which mystery of Christ, and of the Gospel, was not made known to men in general, nor so clearly as under the Gospel dispensation. Some hints were given of it to Adam, immediately after his fall; and the Gospel was before preached to Abraham, Moses, and David, and others knew something of it; and it was still more fully dispensed in the times of the prophet Isaiah, and other following prophets: but then the knowledge of it was not so extensive, nor so clear as now; it lay hid in types and shadows, in obscure prophecies and short hints. Moreover, this may have respect particularly to the calling of the Gentiles, as appears from the following words; this was, in some measure, made known, as that in Christ all the nations of the earth should be blessed; that when Shiloh came, to him should the gathering of the people be; that the Messiah should be an ensign of the people, and to him should the Gentiles seek; that he should be the covenant of the people, and a leader and a commander of them; and that there should be great flockings to him; but then this was not known to many, and the time, mode, and circumstances of it were but little understood, and comparatively speaking, it was not known: however, it was not so known,

Even still we look through a glass darkly, there still remains some mystery which eventually we will fully comprehend..

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The differences between God's bride, Israel, and the bride of Christ, the Church, are too many to go into here, but the chief of them is that Israel is referred to as the unfaithful wife of God, and the Church is the chaste and virgin bride of Jesus Christ. Very big difference.

Yet God ultimately says He will restore His Bride in the Old Testament, how do you think He restored her?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

He restored the Bride FROM the Old Testament by offering a New Covenant, the Bride was Restored by Christ, do you not believe that Christ fulfilled this prophecy?

Ez 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord:
63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord God.

God restores His Bride here, how is it restored? By an everlasting Covenant, there are only 2 Covenants in the Bible that I am aware of, the Old Covenant which encompasses the Promises of Abraham and Moses, and the New Covenant of Christ. The Destruction of Israel as Prophesied in that chapter has happened, yet God still offered them a New Covenant to restore His Bride, and when they accept it they will never open their mouth anymore because of their shame for Crucifying the Messiah.

The Prophet Hosea literally lived out Redeeming the Bride:

Hosea 3:1 Then said the Lord unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the Lord toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

How does God Redeem Israel? By the Christ of course, who is the Redeemer?

Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

I can quote dozens of Scriptures that show that the Bride of the Old Testament is Redeemed, Restored and never thrown away and quoted dozens of Scriptures in the New Testament that show that Jesus is the one who brings Redemption and Restoration. Jesus Redeemed the Bride of God, let us not think we werent just as guilty as Israel in our whoredom and sin before God. The Bride is Chaste and Spotless because of Christ, the Bride of the Old Testament has the Blood poured on her as well, it is how she is Redeemed...

The "Church" in the wilderness is not THE Church, but the assembly of Israel.

The called out ones of the world right? Isnt that what Church in the New Testament means?

ekklésia: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah)
Short Definition: an assembly, congregation, church

1577 ekklēsía(from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 2564 /kaléō, "to call") – properly, people called out from the world and to God, the outcome being the Church (the mystical body of Christ) – i.e. the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.

[The English word "church" comes from the Greek word kyriakos, "belonging to the Lord" (kyrios). 1577 /ekklēsía

Would you like to say that Israel was not called out from the rest of the World to become believers to inherit and enter into His Eternal Kingdom? From my understanding that is exactly what Israel represented...

The CHURCH is those who believe in the Messiah, who have Faith in the Messiah, people had Faith in the Messiah before He came, and people have Faith in the Messiah since He has come, there is no difference in their place with God. They and we are all called out from the World and into His Eternal Kingdom...

Paul tells us that the Church was not revealed to anyone in the Old Testament, so clearly the church spoken of is not the body and bride of Christ.

He did not...

They have not, and I didn't say that. God is not done with them yet, and there are still promises he made to them that will be fulfilled.

And I am seeing that Israel has received everything promised to them, its found in Christ. The have been Redeemed, Restored, Jesus is the Fulfillment of the Promise the only real thing left is Eternal Inheritance...

You know the answer as well as I do. I'm not sure where the question is coming from.

To say that it doesnt make much logical sense to graft the "Church" into something that is corrupted. It makes more sense that the Gentiles were grafted into an already established "people who have been Redeemed and Called out of the World" base, which would be the believers in the Old Testament. Essentially I am saying we were added to what was already there...

There's not, and I haven't said that, either.

You said after the Rapture that there is no more Grace, if there is no more Grace then how exactly are people going to be saved by Grace thru Faith as literally everyone who has ever been saved has been saved? There MUST be a different method for Salvation for Israel and whomever else it is you believe will be on Earth after Jesus Returns...

The nation of Israel has been set aside until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.

Except Jesus literally brought them the New Covenant and they all have the opportunity to accept it right now as they have since He came. There is no other Redemption for Israel ever in Scripture. Its all through Jesus and the New Covenant by Grace thru Faith lest Christ be of no affect to you. I am having a hard time holding on to this special time for Israel that is different than every other human that has ever existed, especially in light of the Scriptures that say Israel is ONLY the believers in God thru Christ...

You and I, and everyone else who believes are the children of the promise. All the promises made to mankind about a future Kingdom of God were originally made to Abraham. We are spiritual children of those promises.

Correct and thus we are all of the same fold, there is no difference between us for all had Faith in the Messiah and are covered by His Blood. The Blood flows back to the beginning of Time and forward till the end of Time and all must come thru the Blood and by the same method, by Faith thru Grace lest the Blood has no affect...

Show me one place in the Old Testament where a believer is saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

How could any of them believe they were not going to Hell Thunder? Job had Faith in Christ plain and simple:

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Want to tell me Job didnt believe in the Messiah? That he didnt believe in the Redeemer, that he didnt believe the Redeemer would actually come on Earth? There is a perfect example of Faith in Jesus the Redeemer, looking forward to Christ coming and that one day Job would see Him for himself. Is that not literally what you believe right now? Does your Redeemer live? Do you believe in Faith that one day you will see God with your eyes even after you die?

Hosea knew that somehow God would Redeem believers from death and hell:

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Who redeemed Hosea from the power of the grave, and from death? Takes a lot of Faith to pen such words does it not? Did he know the name of Jesus, nope but he knew God was going to redeem him from the grave and death. He was saved by Grace thru Faith in the Messiah.

Every single person in the Bible that believed, believed by Grace thru Faith that God would do what He said He would do, and it was in that promise who is JESUS that they placed their Faith. I mean Jesus Himself said it Thunder:

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

What do you think Jesus is talking about here? I believe He is telling the Jews that Abraham rejoiced to see the Coming of the Messiah and by FAITH Abraham saw it and was glad. Why was Abraham glad? Because Jesus was fulfilling everything he had Faith in!!!

 

[Thunderian]

Faith in the coming Messiah is not the same as being a part of a church that is built on the shed blood of that Messiah. Old Testament believers did not accept that the Messiah would die for them. The Jews were looking for a king when Jesus came, and even his disciples didn't know he was going to be crucified.

He did not...

Ephesians 3

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly placesmight be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[Daciple]

Faith in the coming Messiah is not the same as being a part of a church that is built on the shed blood of that Messiah. Old Testament believers did not accept that the Messiah would die for them. The Jews were looking for a king when Jesus came, and even his disciples didn't know he was going to be crucified.

They didnt understand exactly how the Messiah was going to bring them Redemption but you ignored 99% of what I said, wonder why?

Did Job not have Faith in His Redeemer? Who is his Redeemer?

Did Abraham not see Jesus time? Why was he glad? How did Abraham see Jesus time?

And you can quote Gal 3, I already explained it, would you like me to just requote things again?

Which in other ages was not made known unto, the sons of men,.... That is, which mystery of Christ, and of the Gospel, was not made known to men in general, nor so clearly as under the Gospel dispensation. Some hints were given of it to Adam, immediately after his fall; and the Gospel was before preached to Abraham, Moses, and David, and others knew something of it; and it was still more fully dispensed in the times of the prophet Isaiah, and other following prophets: but then the knowledge of it was not so extensive, nor so clear as now; it lay hid in types and shadows, in obscure prophecies and short hints. Moreover, this may have respect particularly to the calling of the Gentiles, as appears from the following words; this was, in some measure, made known, as that in Christ all the nations of the earth should be blessed; that when Shiloh came, to him should the gathering of the people be; that the Messiah should be an ensign of the people, and to him should the Gentiles seek; that he should be the covenant of the people, and a leader and a commander of them; and that there should be great flockings to him; but then this was not known to many, and the time, mode, and circumstances of it were but little understood, and comparatively speaking, it was not known: however, it was not so known,

 

[Daciple]

@Aiylishia

Thanks for the Article, I had written my post to Thunder before I read it, and as I read it, it confirmed most of what I was already being lead to understand. It really went in depth with how the New Testament Church is the fulfillment of Old Testament Israel, and that they are the same exact thing. It really opened my eyes and explained some of the issues I had with Amillennialism. Of course I am not one to just say any one ideology is completely correct, because I still believe in cyclical prophecies where a prophecy can be given and fulfilled in a smaller way then bigger then in full later, but I cant deny the very obvious Spiritual Fulfillments spoken of in that article and understood in Amillennialism.

I suppose the biggest hang up I have now is a Literal Antichrist vs the Spiritualized ideology in Amilennialism. While I can indeed understand the AM position on it, I cant help but believe that there will be literal Antichrist that will try and bring Israel and even Pre Mil Christians that False Worldly Israel that they so desire. I also believe there is definitely going to come a time of sever persecution of Christians (regardless of some 7 year time stamp) with a movement towards a New World Order.

The other big issue I am having with AM, is the Day of the Lord, now I have to go by Faith and accept that the Day of the Lord was fulfilled in Acts, like I would be rejecting Gods Word to say this hasnt been fulfilled in some capacity, but I still believe that there is a bigger fulfillment at Christ Return where literally the Moon becomes Blood, the Sun goes Dark, Fire falls and then people run ect.

Regardless I can say my view on Eschatology has been radically transformed since before I came on this site, I was a Full Pre Tribber, then after much personal study completely rejected that specific ideology, and held to Post Wrath. Now I cant help but see the clear cut understanding of Spiritual fulfillment seen in AM. At this point I suppose I am more of what ideologies do I utterly reject and that would be Pre Trib, and Full Preterism.

Anyways thanks again for the article I appreciate it..

 

[Lisa]

The story of Noah is just one of the types of rapture we see in the Bible, where God warns people of impending doom, and removes the righteous before any judgement occurs. Other types of rapture the Bible tells us of are Lot and his family, and Rahab and her family.

I was rereading the op and thought of this...(pardon me if I’ve already said this)

When you say that God warns people of impending doom and removes the righteous before any judgement occurs...I was thinking, that God did take them just before His judgements. Which really makes the pre-wrath argument stronger in my opinion.
With Noah, they get in the ark, the door shuts and the rain starts...
With Lot, the angels are herding him and his family while the judgement is ready to begin and as soon as they flee, it begins...
With Rahab, they get out and the walls fall.
The tribulation isn’t God’s wrath, His wrath doesn’t start until people are at the point of no return...near the end. God, through the tribulation keeps giving them chances, and keeps His people on earth for our testimony.

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the the farthest end of heaven. Mark 13:24-28

The other thing I don’t really understand about the pre trib rapture..is why would God take out His people when we are the light in the darkness? Why take us when He can use us as a testimony to others in such a dark time. I have a hard time understanding the concept of newbie Christians coming to Christ to undergo the tribulation while old timer saints are taken out so they don’t have to see it...that really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Who would be better in that situation...the newbie or the old timer? The old timer who has lived his life in God, who God has molded into a new creation, and then what? He won’t use that new creation but take him out before the going gets tough? And, then I think who the heck is going to come to Christ in the tribulation? I don’t think a whole lot of people are going to...which is why God starts His wrath. Aren’t people just shaking their fist at God and wanting to die, not be saved?

 

[Vytas]

I just hope pretribers will not lose faith when they see, they in fact not raptured...With this never ending dispute i think most important thing is to not be too much sure... As to avoid faith crisis or disappointment...Doesn't matter which side you are on...

 

[Lisa]

I just hope pretribers will not lose faith when they see, they in fact not raptured...With this never ending dispute i think most important thing is to not be too much sure... As to avoid faith crisis or disappointment...Doesn't matter which side you are on...

But, I think they will lose faith when they see they aren’t raptured...
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. I don’t think they will be prepared to endure until the end, as they are only waiting for their escape....

I think it does matter which side you are on...can you take it if you are left here, and are now hating God because He left you to endure till the end? That you will have to go through the worst time the world has ever seen with just your faith in God? Knowing that He didn’t rescue you from it? I think that many, many Christians will find their faith crushed because their faith is in rescue not in endurance till the end...

 

[Vytas]

But, I think they will lose faith when they see they aren’t raptured...
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. I don’t think they will be prepared to endure until the end, as they are only waiting for their escape....

I think it does matter which side you are on...can you take it if you are left here, and are now hating God because He left you to endure till the end? That you will have to go through the worst time the world has ever seen with just your faith in God? Knowing that He didn’t rescue you from it? I think that many, many Christians will find their faith crushed because their faith is in rescue not in endurance till the end...

You are probably right, people go crazy arguing this, there will be huge despair...Perhaps it's the main reason of this deception...
I meant do not be ever confident doesn't matter which side are you on. I can't simply say please change your opinion

Some great insights about pretrib rapture...

 

[Lisa]

You are probably right, people go crazy arguing this, there will be huge despair...Perhaps it's the main reason of this deception...
I meant do not be ever confident doesn't matter which side are you on. I can't simply say please change your opinion

Some great insights about pretrib rapture...

I think its the main reason for the deception too...and the world watches as Christians despair because their God didn’t save them..whose gonna become a Christian then?

I see..ya, over confidence is a bad thing...always test your faith.

Well, you could say please change your opinion

 

[Lisa]

And if you think about it...did God save the apostles from a grisly death? And were those apostles honored to die those kind of deaths for their God? I think that is what’s wrong with the pre trib rapture. Yes, it would be nice to be raptured before the hard times...but Jesus tells us we will have tribulations in this life...why then would he save us from the big one, when all along our tribulations we are told to have faith and trust God? Isn’t that what we should be mirroring now? Having faith and trusting God for the great tribulation...that our God can save us, but if He doesn’t, we will still not bow down? I totally admire Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego for saying that, what kind of faith does that take to know God can save you and also know that He might not.

I think of for whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. The one who said that is going to rapture us out of the earth when we are His representatives?

 

[Lisa]

@Vytas...should have watched your video first...he says a lot of things that I think...but the best thing he says is that its what the people want to hear....I think that’s the biggest reason the deception has taken off like it has.

Its been this way throughout history. God sends a prophet..they don’t like what he has to say and he’s killed or ostracized.

 

[TokiEl]

Yes, there will be believers during the Tribulation. I didn't say there wouldn't be. But when Jesus Christ takes his bride there won't be a single believer left on earth for awhile, and anyone who is saved after that will not be part of the Church.

We are in tribulation and are awaiting the Great tribulation also known as the Day of the Lord or God's wrath which will last 3.5 years before Jesus Christ returns.

The elect or chosen or 144000 seems to be sealed at the breaking of the sixth seal at the start of the Great tribulation which will begin this year according to the timeline in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy.

 

[Daciple]

The elect or chosen or 144000 seems to be sealed at the breaking of the sixth seal at the start of the Great tribulation which will begin this year according to the timeline in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy.

So if this doesnt happen which it probably wont can we consider you a False Prophet?

 

[TokiEl]

So if this doesnt happen which it probably wont can we consider you a False Prophet?

I don't think so since i'm not a prophet and so cannot be a false one.

Why would it not happen this year ? Isn't it ripe ? Are there no signs of the times even timeline and markers of time in the Bible ?

 

[Thunderian]

you ignored 99% of what I said, wonder why?

If you can't see a clear distinction in scripture between Old Testament saints and the Church I am not going to spend time arguing any other point.

 

[Daciple]

If you can't see a clear distinction in scripture between Old Testament saints and the Church I am not going to spend time arguing any other point.

Ya that's usually what I do in discussions with others, if they disagree with me I find one point of contention and say well if you don't see it my way then I'll ignore everything else you've written.

Looks good on you Thunder

 

[Thunderian]

Ya that's usually what I do in discussions with others, if they disagree with me I find one point of contention and say well if you don't see it my way then I'll ignore everything else you've written.

Looks good on you Thunder

It's not one point of contention. Everything about this discussion flows from how we take the Bible's words on the Church and it's difference from Israel. The fact that you can't see that is just more reason for me not to invest any time in it.

 

[Thunderian]

I was rereading the op and thought of this...(pardon me if I’ve already said this)

When you say that God warns people of impending doom and removes the righteous before any judgement occurs...I was thinking, that God did take them just before His judgements. Which really makes the pre-wrath argument stronger in my opinion.
With Noah, they get in the ark, the door shuts and the rain starts...
With Lot, the angels are herding him and his family while the judgement is ready to begin and as soon as they flee, it begins...
With Rahab, they get out and the walls fall.
The tribulation isn’t God’s wrath, His wrath doesn’t start until people are at the point of no return...near the end. God, through the tribulation keeps giving them chances, and keeps His people on earth for our testimony.

As I said already, the Tribulation is about the Jews. The seven years are for them. The pre-trib view is not about us escaping destruction as it is about the Jews going through it.

The other thing I don’t really understand about the pre trib rapture..is why would God take out His people when we are the light in the darkness? Why take us when He can use us as a testimony to others in such a dark time.

Don't you get it, though? Our time here is done. The world will be plunged completely into darkness because Satan and his angels will finally be unrestrained. All Christians can do in that situation is die. There will be 144,000 sealed witnesses, two witnesses in Jerusalem, and an angel flying above the earth, all preaching the gospel to the world. Our little lights would be unnecessary.

I have a hard time understanding the concept of newbie Christians coming to Christ to undergo the tribulation while old timer saints are taken out so they don’t have to see it...that really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Who would be better in that situation...the newbie or the old timer? The old timer who has lived his life in God, who God has molded into a new creation, and then what? He won’t use that new creation but take him out before the going gets tough?

Again, it's not our time. What does it matter how long someone has been a Christian? I bet a new Christian during the Tribulation, being hunted for his faith, will have more experience trusting fully in God for his life in his first week of being saved than some guy who lived in the Bible Belt for the last fifty years. Who is the stronger Christian there, do you think? Persecuted believers will always have a deeper appreciation of the mercies of God.

And, then I think who the heck is going to come to Christ in the tribulation? I don’t think a whole lot of people are going to...which is why God starts His wrath. Aren’t people just shaking their fist at God and wanting to die, not be saved?

Revelation 7 -

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
...
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​