The Rapture

[Dumloko]

For instance, if someone believes that the Church has replaced Israel, there is a lot of prophecy they have to read with their eyes half closed.

I think this subject should be discussed in more detail, maybe in another thread. The apostoles wrote about the rejection of "DNA" Israel as a chosen nation and the creation of a spiritual Israel , the "Israel of God" (Galatias 6:16).

The 144,000 are not part of the Church. They are from the 12 tribes of Israel and part of a different dispensation.

Take in account that the list of tribes in Revelation 7 doesn't match 12 tribes of natural Israel mentioned in Numbers chapter 1. Also, by the time John had this vision, the temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of Israel had been destroyed and lost forever. He must be referring to the spiritual Israel, formed by the 144,000 "who were sealed". By your definition of "Church", it's safe to say those 144,000 are indeed the "Church".
After this, John sees the "great multitude", which despite not being part of the "Church", they "stand before the throne and the Lamb", they are given favorable recognition. Both groups form Christ's congregation, "one flock, one shepherd". (John 10:16)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think this subject should be discussed in more detail, maybe in another thread. The apostoles wrote about the rejection of "DNA" Israel as a chosen nation and the creation of a spiritual Israel , the "Israel of God" (Galatias 6:16).



Take in account that the list of tribes in Revelation 7 doesn't match 12 tribes of natural Israel mentioned in Numbers chapter 1. Also, by the time John had this vision, the temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of Israel had been destroyed and lost forever. He must be referring to the spiritual Israel, formed by the 144,000 "who were sealed". By your definition of "Church", it's safe to say those 144,000 are indeed the "Church".
After this, John sees the "great multitude", which despite not being part of the "Church", they "stand before the throne and the Lamb", they are given favorable recognition. Both groups form Christ's congregation, "one flock, one shepherd". (John 10:16)

I think you identify this correctly as a separate thread to explore together. There is a spectrum of opinion on it and it would be good to explore the idea on the Forum...

 

[Mr.Grieves]

The Rapture bugs me as a concept, because it encourages good religious people to do nothing (don't worry, the Rapture will take care of it) and gives fiendish religious people an excuse or even an impetus to destroy, in order to 'hasten it along'.
How different a world would it be if all the good people- Christians, Muslims, whatever- who lived and died leaving the problems and injustices they faced to the Rapture to take care of had instead stood up and firmly fought? If all those doing evil deeds in the name of bringing about some end-times battle had no such excuse or propaganda to employ?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The Rapture bugs me as a concept, because it encourages good religious people to do nothing (don't worry, the Rapture will take care of it) and gives fiendish religious people an excuse or even an impetus to destroy, in order to 'hasten it along'.
How different a world would it be if all the good people- Christians, Muslims, whatever- who lived and died leaving the problems and injustices they faced to the Rapture to take care of had instead stood up and firmly fought? If all those doing evil deeds in the name of bringing about some end-times battle had no such excuse or propaganda to employ?

Hi Mr Grieves,,

The church I attend most people would take your view as well. It is worth examining though as the approach is more rhetorical than biblical (don't mean to sound like a dictionary btw!). I could have posted up a thread lamenting the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath guys by saying that as world events begin to line up with scripture more and more, the impending arrival of the Antichrist would distract them from preaching the Gospel and encourage them to stock up on food and guns for a tough seven years!!!

However, re-reading your post I don't think you even mean that - I think what you are getting at is that you think that people who believe in the rapture may either abdicate any efforts to influence the world for the better, or that (not sure if you mean Christians or Muslims) would want to almost 'force the hand' of history by creating climactic conditions that appeal to their apocalyptic vision? (e.g. ISIS in Dabiq?)

Definitely a topic worth bringing out as these are valid questions that should be aired...

 

[Thunderian]

The Rapture bugs me as a concept, because it encourages good religious people to do nothing (don't worry, the Rapture will take care of it) and gives fiendish religious people an excuse or even an impetus to destroy, in order to 'hasten it along'.

You could say that the concept of grace encourages us to do nothing as well, since Christ takes care of it all, but there's nothing in the Bible in either case that tells us to sit around and wait for it to happen.

If anything, the fact that the Rapture could be coming at any moment should move Christians to win souls with fervour because once the Rapture happens, a lot changes for the unsaved. God's grace should have a similar effect on us. "Work, for the night is coming!"

Likewise, the Bible is clear there is nothing we can do about the timing of the Rapture, and the idea that anyone can hurry it along is a complete misunderstanding of the word of God on the subject.

People keep saying that American evangelicals are trying to "trigger" the Rapture. It's idiotic (no offense). No one can trigger the Rapture. That's a concept that only seems to have traction with non-Christians.

 

[colson]

I'm not sure why some people who aren't pre-trib feel the need to be so condescending, Colson, unless they feel threatened in some way. Which doesn't make sense, because if you are wrong and are a believer, you get a nice rapture. If I'm wrong, I will probably die horribly.

All believers on earth today are part of the Church. I capitalize it to distinguish it from the local church, which could be made up of believers and unbelievers. If you are a believer, Colson, you are part of the Church, whether you believe in it or not, and you will be raptured with the rest of us.

The 144,000 are not part of the Church. They are from the 12 tribes of Israel and part of a different dispensation.

I'm sorry if I came across as condescending.

You are not going to die horribly - if you die, you are going to die honorably. And, it is not guaranteed that you will die.

From my point of view, you are not going to get whisked away raptured (and of course I will not either). And when the whisked away rapture event occurs (because it is going to be faked when the 'evil aliens' show up) and there are all these people who thought they were going to get whisked away... there is going to be a lot of hurt and confused feelings - that could have been avoided or prevented. the repeated motif in movies is that the people who are 'whisked away' by aliens (getting beamed up) is that they are kidnapped and will be returned from the evil alien craft by a hero... (normal people would understand that they have come back from 'God' the evil alien. All because they have been seduced by this whisked away idea).

Even all that aside, why can't I be frustrated by the mere fact that it is unscriptural?

You are leading people astray with these ideas (and all the while thinking you are doing a great job in promoting God's holiness?!).
Exodus 23

20 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21 Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

22 “But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.

23 “When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I blot them out, 24 you shall not bow down to their gods nor serve them, nor do as they do, but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their pillars in pieces. 25 You shall serve the Lord your God, and he will bless your bread and your water, and I will take sickness away from among you. 26 None shall miscarry or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days. 27 I will send my terror before you and will throw into confusion all the people against whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. 28 And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivites, the Canaanites, and the Hittites from before you. 29 I will not drive them out from before you in one year, lest the land become desolate and the wild beasts multiply against you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased and possess the land. 31 And I will set your border from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates, for I will give the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you. 32 You shall make no covenant with them and their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin against me; for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you.”​

You know the 2 blue lines at the top and bottom on the Israeli flag? that's a reference to this passage right here - the 'expanded borders' of Israel, generally called 'Greater Israel'. The nation state of Israel expects that their borders will expand to Iraq and into Egypt (see here for a map http://www.globalresearch.ca/greater-israel-the-zionist-plan-for-the-middle-east/5324815)

the 'hornets' that God sends before them are.... the stinging 'locusts' of the 5th trumpet

And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. 2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. 3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

10 They have tails and stings like scorpions, and their power to hurt people for five months is in their tails. 11 They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.​

and at the stinging serpent tails 6th trumpet

18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound.​

Christians and Jews in Israel will have expanded borders - because they will inherit the blessings of obedience to God.

Those people in the 7th seal, the 144,000 & the 'great multitude of Christians' are obedient. What are they obedient to?

20 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21 Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

22 “But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.​

What does the angel say?
Rev 14

6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7 And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
​

Rev 18

4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,

“Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven,
and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 Pay her back as she herself has paid back others,
and repay her double for her deeds;
mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed.​

Instead of telling people they don't need to worry about things, because they will be magically whisked away, why don't you tell people that they need to listen to what God is going to tell them to do.

In the whisked away rapture scenario, God is acting for you. But the Bible says that you need to listen and do what the messengers say - God is not going to do that for you!

 

[Thunderian]

Colson, we won't be here for anything the angels say. The Rapture happens before that.

I think I've shown there's a pretty strong case for a pre-trib rapture. Is there a specific part of my argument that you find fault with, or is it just the concept in general you find distasteful?

As noted, there are things that preclude people from accepting the doctrine because there is other doctrine they don't agree with. For instance, if someone believes that Israel has been replaced by the Church, they have to read the whole Bible that way. So the 144,000 can't be accepted as actually being from the tribes of Israel, even when it's right there in black and white, because the reader has already determined that God is finished with Israel.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

However, re-reading your post I don't think you even mean that - I think what you are getting at is that you think that people who believe in the rapture may either abdicate any efforts to influence the world for the better, or that (not sure if you mean Christians or Muslims) would want to almost 'force the hand' of history by creating climactic conditions that appeal to their apocalyptic vision? (e.g. ISIS in Dabiq?)

That is indeed what I'm suggesting. One sees it a lot in Christian sentiment, even here on this forum; the 'best let Jesus sort it out', 'leave it to the Rapture' ideation that leaves good people content to let injustices and evil acts in the world around them go uncontested in spite of strong moral conviction that what's going on is wrong. And indeed, more fiendish people- not just limited to Muslim extremists but genital-mutilating, gay-lynching, albino-executing Christian extremists too- often make the claim that they're engaged in the 'final battle', that they're hastening the world along to its predicted end, for which they feel a ghastly anticipation.

 

[Yahda]

Why is it that the OT speaks of a totally different end time scenario? Take Joel 2 & 3, Amos 9, Malachi 4, Jeremiah 30 & 26:30-33....for example just to name a few. Christians and their alternative facts smh.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

That is indeed what I'm suggesting. One sees it a lot in Christian sentiment, even here on this forum; the 'best let Jesus sort it out', 'leave it to the Rapture' ideation that leaves good people content to let injustices and evil acts in the world around them go uncontested in spite of strong moral conviction that what's going on is wrong. And indeed, more fiendish people- not just limited to Muslim extremists but genital-mutilating, gay-lynching, albino-executing Christian extremists too- often make the claim that they're engaged in the 'final battle', that they're hastening the world along to its predicted end, for which they feel a ghastly anticipation.

Interesting observations and, hoping not to misrepresent you, are you a humanist/atheist? My reason for the question (as you sound bright and articulate) is that you may share a world view of Man taking things into his own hands with Stalin, Pol Pot and Kim Jong Un! Perhaps you would find it a but offensive to lump your philosophy in with the crazed actions who took a view you held and did something really stupid with it!!!!

Btw - I am not offended even though I happen to wholeheartedly believe in the Rapture, yet still do my best in the situations I find myself to shine the love of God and do what I can for people...

 

[Thunderian]

One sees it a lot in Christian sentiment, even here on this forum; the 'best let Jesus sort it out',

Of the, oh, three people posting on this board who believe in a pre-trib rapture, I can virtually guarantee none of them has ever made any such statement.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

Interesting observations and, hoping not to misrepresent you, are you a humanist/atheist?

I'm a noncommittal atheist, yes.

My reason for the question (as you sound bright and articulate) is that you may share a world view of Man taking things into his own hands with Stalin, Pol Pot and Kim Jong Un! Perhaps you would find it a but offensive to lump your philosophy in with the crazed actions who took a view you held and did something really stupid with it!!!!

Not at all. All philosophies and ideologies can be taken to grave extremes, but lets keep in mind that Stalin, Pol Pot, and Kim Jong Un didn't do what they did in the name of Atheism, they did them in the name of a particular political ideology. It should also be noted that Stalin rose to power with the backing of the Russian Christian Orthodoxy.

Btw - I am not offended even though I happen to wholeheartedly believe in the Rapture, yet still do my best in the situations I find myself to shine the love of God and do what I can for people...

I'm glad for it, and there's plenty of solid Christian parables and phrases that support that view: 'Faith without works is dead', 'God helps those who help themselves', etc. I'm by no means suggesting that Christians/Muslims/Whatevers are inherently paralyzed by the 'Rapture' tale or similar beliefs, I just find it's often used as either cause for inaction in the face evil, or an impetus/justification for evil acts/an apocalyptic world-view.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

And honestly, I don't think its proven that Pol Pot WAS an atheist.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

And honestly, I don't think its proven that Pol Pot WAS an atheist.

Hey - I was just using him to make my point (teach me to use Wikipedia next time!)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Of the, oh, three people posting on this board who believe in a pre-trib rapture, I can virtually guarantee none of them has ever made any such statement.

Interesting line of discussion!

I might take the view that a logical Atheist might well read their Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens and be commited to selfishness, 'looking after number one', getting rid of the sick and the weak in the population etc etc, yet Mr Greaves himself may tirelessly work with the homeless or help with the needs of the disabled!

My point is that it not really logical to make blanket 'Ad Hominam' statements against whole groups of people and presume to have understood their motivations or world view. If you want to understand someone's world view, you really need to ask them!

 

[Mr.Grieves]

I might take the view that a logical Atheist might well read their Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens and be commited to selfishness, 'looking after number one', getting rid of the sick and the weak in the population etc etc, yet Mr Greaves himself may tirelessly work with the homeless or help with the needs of the disabled!

lol, I donate to Medicines Sans Frontiers anyway...!

Honestly, while Hitchens was a clever dude, I really can't stand Dawkins and his whole 'active atheism', 'lets turn atheism into an ideology and completely miss the fucking point' shtick. I mean, when I was a teenager I would have been all over that, as in my youth I was definitely in the 'down with religion!' crowd, but I grew out of that attitude, and now look at Dawkins and his ideals/ 'atheist' dogma as just kindof ugly.

My point is that it not really logical to make blanket 'Ad Hominam' statements against whole groups of people and presume to have understood their motivations or world view. If you want to understand someone's world view, you really need to ask them!

I hope you recognize I've done no such thing; my criticism being with the concept of Rapture and what it can lead too/inspire in some people, not all peoples who believe in it.

 

[Thunderian]

I think this subject should be discussed in more detail, maybe in another thread. The apostoles wrote about the rejection of "DNA" Israel as a chosen nation and the creation of a spiritual Israel , the "Israel of God" (Galatias 6:16).

I agree this should be a separate thread. Would you start one?

Take in account that the list of tribes in Revelation 7 doesn't match 12 tribes of natural Israel mentioned in Numbers chapter 1.

Yes, Dan and Ephraim are missing, and Levi is inserted. Genesis 49 has a different listing than Numbers 2, and in Ezekiel, 14 tribes are listed. The tribe of Joseph in Genesis is sometimes split into Ephraim and Manasseh, but in Revelation 7 we see Joseph and Manasseh. It's an interesting study on it's own, and it has to do sometimes with the battle order -- for instance, the tribe of Levi didn't fight and didn't make the order in Numbers 2, but are back into the order in Revelation because the priesthood was taken away from Levi.

The tribe of Dan is somehow connected to Satan. In Genesis 49:17, Jacob makes a strange prophecy over him.

Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

It's hard to know what to make of this, but that verse certainly raises some questions.

Ephraim seems to be dismissed by the Lord as well, in Hosea 4:17, Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

Levi is inserted into the battle order because the priesthood is no longer through the line of Levi, but of Zadok, and will be this way through the Millennium.

Also, by the time John had this vision, the temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of Israel had been destroyed and lost forever.

Did God forget these things, though? Probably not, huh?

He must be referring to the spiritual Israel, formed by the 144,000 "who were sealed".

Why must he? If this is the spiritual Israel, which after the end of the Tribulation will also be the only physical Israel, how will the nation of Israel propagate itself, when every Jew on earth is a man? The Bible is pretty clear that the nation of Israel will be a thing in the Millennium, inhabiting the land as the people of God. Pretty lame if it's a nation of bachelors.

By your definition of "Church", it's safe to say those 144,000 are indeed the "Church".

My definition of the Church is raptured before the beginning of the Tribulation. The 144,000 are sealed after the Tribulation has begun, after the Church has already been raptured.

After this, John sees the "great multitude", which despite not being part of the "Church", they "stand before the throne and the Lamb", they are given favorable recognition. Both groups form Christ's congregation, "one flock, one shepherd". (John 10:16)

Why can't they be separate from the Church, and still stand before Christ? We will all stand before Christ one day. Old Testament saints, the Church, Tribulation saints, and believers from the Millennium. The Church aren't the only ones in the flock, and I never said that they were.

We live in a time -- called the Church age -- when our salvation is by faith. But it's hard to have a faith-based salvation during the Tribulation when there are angels flying over the earth crying out, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Can you see how that might take the need for faith off the table?

Just as there was a different way of salvation before Christ died and rose again, there must be a different way of salvation during the Tribulation than the grace through faith type that Paul preached.

 

[DisenfranchisedDespot]

Tribe of Dan was not included because of idolatry that lasted roughly 500 years

Judges 18:14-31 KJV
Then answered the five men that went to spy out the country of Laish, and said unto their brethren, Do ye know that there is in these houses an ephod, and teraphim, and a graven image, and a molten image? now therefore consider what ye have to do. [15] And they turned thitherward, and came to the house of the young man the Levite, even unto the house of Micah, and saluted him. [16] And the six hundred men appointed with their weapons of war, which were of the children of Dan, stood by the entering of the gate. [17] And the five men that went to spy out the land went up, and came in thither, and took the graven image, and the ephod, and the teraphim, and the molten image: and the priest stood in the entering of the gate with the six hundred men that were appointed with weapons of war. [18] And these went into Micah's house, and fetched the carved image, the ephod, and the teraphim, and the molten image. Then said the priest unto them, What do ye? [19] And they said unto him, Hold thy peace, lay thine hand upon thy mouth, and go with us, and be to us a father and a priest: is it better for thee to be a priest unto the house of one man, or that thou be a priest unto a tribe and a family in Israel? [20] And the priest's heart was glad, and he took the ephod, and the teraphim, and the graven image, and went in the midst of the people. [21] So they turned and departed, and put the little ones and the cattle and the carriage before them. [22] And when they were a good way from the house of Micah, the men that were in the houses near to Micah's house were gathered together, and overtook the children of Dan. [23] And they cried unto the children of Dan. And they turned their faces, and said unto Micah, What aileth thee, that thou comest with such a company? [24] And he said, Ye have taken away my gods which I made, and the priest, and ye are gone away: and what have I more? and what is this that ye say unto me, What aileth thee? [25] And the children of Dan said unto him, Let not thy voice be heard among us, lest angry fellows run upon thee, and thou lose thy life, with the lives of thy household. [26] And the children of Dan went their way: and when Micah saw that they were too strong for him, he turned and went back unto his house. [27] And they took the things which Micah had made, and the priest which he had, and came unto Laish, unto a people that were at quiet and secure: and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and burnt the city with fire. [28] And there was no deliverer, because it was far from Zidon, and they had no business with any man; and it was in the valley that lieth by Beth-rehob. And they built a city, and dwelt therein. [29] And they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father, who was born unto Israel: howbeit the name of the city was Laish at the first. [30] And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land. [31] And they set them up Micah's graven image, which he made, all the time that the house of God was in Shiloh.

 

[Thunderian]

Why is it that the OT speaks of a totally different end time scenario? Take Joel 2 & 3, Amos 9, Malachi 4, Jeremiah 30 & 26:30-33....for example just to name a few. Christians and their alternative facts smh.

Joel 2 is about events that accompany Armageddon, about the restoration of Israel and about signs the precede the second advent of Jesus Christ. Joel 3 is about the judgement of the nations at the end of the Tribulation. Amos 9 is about Israel in the Church age, in the Tribulation and in the Millennium. Malachi 4 is another prophecy of the second advent of Jesus Christ. Jeremiah 30 has prophecies of the Tribulation and the Millennium, and Jeremiah 26:30-33 does not exist.

It would be helpful if you were able to go through the chapters you've listed verse by verse (with the exception, of course, of the one you made up) and tell us how they differ from other prophetic passages in the Bible.

 

[Lady]

That would be very helpful if Yahda could do that since I am following this thread for the purpose of study.
@Yahda, thanks in advance!