The Rapture

[Karlysymon]

I did that at our joint. Ezekiel 9. Noah was shielded. Its not the same as exiting earth.

 

[Thunderian]

Being shielded is not the same as taken away. A fair comparison would be if Noah was given a submarine or the ability to breathe underwater.

There is no scripture that suggests believers will be shielded from anything during the Tribulation, other than the 144,000 who are specifically sealed against the harmful events that take place.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Being shielded is not the same as taken away. A fair comparison would be if Noah was given a submarine or the ability to breathe underwater.

There is no scripture that suggests believers will be shielded from anything during the Tribulation, other than the 144,000 who are specifically sealed against the harmful events that take place.

Hi all,

I have been out of this thread for a while and doing a bit if research on the topic so I properly understood my own and alternative perspectives....

One thing I see looking a bit from the outside the the need to carefully separate out the psychological discussion from the scriptural one. I think it muddies the water... I could score a few "pro-pre-trib" (how's that for a mouthfull!) by citing worried 'preppers' planning their Tribulation survival strategy and forgetting to share the Gospel now, but it really doesn't bring the debate any clarity. It just annoys post Trib folk who do share Jesus with others!

For the record and hopefully as my contribution to this thread, I came on a very simple video that outlines the bullet point biblical evidence for "The Rapture and the Purpose of the Tribulation". It might not persuade everyone and that's fine, but at least review it...

God bless

 

[Karlysymon]

Hello Red Sky,

thanks for the video. As i said before, my interpretation may not be the correct one. I have to realise that and keep it in my mind that i could be disappointed and that events won't play out the way i thought. I just don't want that day to dawn and iam raging with anger, blaming everyone else except myself, as though they are/were responsible for my eternal interests. Its only right to prayerfully ask the HolySpirit "to guide us into all truth" (John 16:13) and to give us humility to accept what He has revealed.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Hello Red Sky,

thanks for the video. As i said before, my interpretation may not be the correct one. I have to realise that and keep it in my mind that i could be disappointed and that events won't play out the way i thought. I just don't want that day to dawn and iam raging with anger, blaming everyone else except myself, as though they are/were responsible for my eternal interests. Its only right to prayerfully ask the HolySpirit "to guide us into all truth" (John 16:13) and to give us humility to accept what He has revealed.

Thanks for your thoughts and concern about this possibility as well - you pick up on a scenario where everyone in focussing on The Rapture and, on the possibility that if we have misinterpreted scripture the disappointed church could have a great falling away...

I think it is healthy to maintain a "but if not" perspective like Daniel's friends did with Nebuchadnezzar....

 

[colson]

In the Bible, no mention of a whisked away rapture - anywhere...

Now, here is how Satanic propaganda portrays the 'whisked away' rapture: hapless bodies sucked into space, then get flung back to earth, burning up on re-entry.

From the 'World of Tomorrow', bodies sucked up into atmosphere

burning up on re-entry here

from X-men 'Apocalypse', meeting the 'Lord in the air' (which in this case, it is the bad guy Apocalypse,(geddit?)

you know the X-men, where the 'Beast' (geddit?) is a good guy

from I, Frankenstein, here 'gargolyes' / ('birds of heaven' wink, wink) are raptured upon death

looks just like the Rapture Ready picture

from Skyline

from some Transformers movie

more vacuum action from the same movie

I saw the exact same sequence in the last Independence Day movie, didn't bother screen grabbing it.

from National Geographic 'documentary' about what 'would really happen' when aliens show up, same 'beam me up', vacuum cleaner action

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

In the Bible, no mention of a whisked away rapture - anywhere...

Now, here is how Satanic propaganda portrays the 'whisked away' rapture: hapless bodies sucked into space, then get flung back to earth, burning up on re-entry.

From the 'World of Tomorrow', bodies sucked up into atmosphere

burning up on re-entry here

from X-men 'Apocalypse', meeting the 'Lord in the air' (which in this case, it is the bad guy Apocalypse,(geddit?)

you know the X-men, where the 'Beast' (geddit?) is a good guy

from I, Frankenstein, here 'gargolyes' / ('birds of heaven' wink, wink) are raptured upon death

looks just like the Rapture Ready picture

from Skyline

from some Transformers movie

more vacuum action from the same movie

I saw the exact same sequence in the last Independence Day movie, didn't bother screen grabbing it.

from National Geographic 'documentary' about what 'would really happen' when aliens show up, same 'beam me up', vacuum cleaner action

I wonder if Satan has heard of the Rapture as well!?

 

[colson]

I wonder if Satan has heard of the Rapture as well!?

What do you mean? Satan knows the Bible backwards and forwards. Satan encourages the idea of a 'whisked away' rapture as part of the general plan to create 'false Christs' that could deceive the very elect. Satan is engineering the 'end times'.

UFO's are not real. But the idea that UFO's 'beam people up' is everywhere from Star Trek to many movies, etc. Is Jesus an alien? No. Are 'angels' aliens? No. People need to think hard about these things because it will be coming soon.

Then you get the counterargument, 'aliens are demons'! And either way, a Christian loses and is led down an evil path: let's say some UFO's come and beam people up.

Christians, ignored and mocked for so long, crow about the greatness of God .... (and then get upset when they aren't 'raptured') - when these (faked) UFO aliens turn out to be 'evil', your average person will say, you Christians have talked about the 'rapture' for ever, and now these aliens show up and 'rapture' people. And these aliens are wrecking earth!

Or if people are beamed up, is Jesus some Capt Kirk figure running around the galaxy (a la Starlord from the Guardians of the Galaxy)? Is that really who Jesus is?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

What do you mean? Satan knows the Bible backwards and forwards. Satan encourages the idea of a 'whisked away' rapture as part of the general plan to create 'false Christs' that could deceive the very elect. Satan is engineering the 'end times'.

UFO's are not real. But the idea that UFO's 'beam people up' is everywhere from Star Trek to many movies, etc. Is Jesus an alien? No. Are 'angels' aliens? No. People need to think hard about these things because it will be coming soon.

Then you get the counterargument, 'aliens are demons'! And either way, a Christian loses and is led down an evil path: let's say some UFO's come and beam people up.

Christians, ignored and mocked for so long, crow about the greatness of God .... (and then get upset when they aren't 'raptured') - when these (faked) UFO aliens turn out to be 'evil', your average person will say, you Christians have talked about the 'rapture' for ever, and now these aliens show up and 'rapture' people. And these aliens are wrecking earth!

Or if people are beamed up, is Jesus some Capt Kirk figure running around the galaxy (a la Starlord from the Guardians of the Galaxy)? Is that really who Jesus is?

No, all I meant was that if Satan were real (and for the purpose of discussion, let us assume he is) then, if he believed the Rapture was a possibility, he would certainly do what he could to provide a cover story in the event that it occurred. I think more people would think of an alien abduction than a rapture given the saturation of media by such ideas.

Does the existence of fake £10 notes call into question the probability that real ones exist? That's one for you to decide...

 

[Thunderian]

Colson, this thread was intended for people who believe in the Rapture but differ on the timing of it to discuss these differences. Why not start another thread if all you want to do is disprove it?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Colson, this thread was intended for people who believe in the Rapture but differ on the timing of it to discuss these differences. Why not start another thread if all you want to do is disprove it?

Disproving something yet to happen... That will be an interesting one!

 

[Vixy]

Must say I like this thread.
The church doesnt bring up the subject or educate churchgoers about it because it has been infiltrated by evil forces. But we ARE lving in the end times, that is pretty darn obvious. I feel that lthough I love my church I dont get the spiritual knowledge I need from there but instead get it from REAL sermons nline by pastors who dont fear scaring away people by preaching about the endtimes and/or hell.

Churches welcoming homosexuals, pastors living in sin and all of that is WRONG and evl and doesnt belng in the church. There is NO compromise with living after gods will! The word was written and is and doesnt change but they are so afraid of losing churchgoers that they preach what people want to hear instead of the truth.

So basically they go against the will of god and thereby God= Evil.

 

[Lady]

Here is yet another view of the Rapture of the Church. I find this one comforting, and sensible while keeping within the bounds of scripture.
A 13 minute video, but one only needs to view the first half to understand this teacher's point.

 

[Karlysymon]

The existence of political Israel is of paramount importance to pre-Trib because without it well......
http://rense.com/general60/zcre.htm
you decide.

 

[Lisa]

The existence of political Israel is of paramount importance to pre-Trib because without it well......
http://rense.com/general60/zcre.htm
you decide.

I thought the emergence of the Jews in the land God gave them after their dispersion was a sign that we are indeed in the last times?

Pre trib is just a hoping that you won't be here, that a loving God won't really have you go through the worst time in history. But then I think, why wouldn't God have us go through the worst time in history...we are told to trust in God no matter what, we certainly will need to trust in God during that time period...plus we are also supposed to be a witness to the nations. God isn't going to end the world without warning, without giving people an out if they want it...that's graciousness!

 

[colson]

John 17

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.

11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.​

 

[Lady]

The existence of political Israel is of paramount importance to pre-Trib because without it well......
http://rense.com/general60/zcre.htm
you decide.

The existence of political Israel is of paramount importance to pre-Trib because without it well......
http://rense.com/general60/zcre.htm
you decide.

appreciate the link. More to add later!

 

[Thunderian]

The existence of political Israel is of paramount importance to pre-Trib because without it well......
http://rense.com/general60/zcre.htm
you decide.

Two premises this article is based on fall flat when faced with history. First, that Zionism is a late 19-century movement fueled by European bankers to displace local Arabs from Palestine. There are so many things wrong with this premise, starting with the obvious one: If rich Jews were going to create a homeland for themselves out of some arbitrary piece of property, why would they choose an area -- Palestine -- that every contemporary account portrays as arid and useless land? Another, much bigger, blow to this premise is that Jews have been yearning for a return to their ancestral land -- which the Bible and history clearly identifies as Palestine -- since Jerusalem was sacked in 70 AD. "Next year in Jerusalem!", has a been a toast and a prayer at Passover for 2000 years. Not "next year in New York," or "next year in London," but in Jerusalem, the holy city where the temple of God belongs and Jesus Christ will reign. People who deny the Jews have a claim to the city and the land don't know history or their Bible.

Second, the article promulgates that myth that pre-tribulation doctrine is a relatively recent phenomenon, begun by John Darby in the late 1800's. This does not reflect fact at all, since we have evidence in writing going back to the second century that proves the pre-tribulation rapture was a doctrine taught by the early church and by church fathers.

At the heart of both these false premises is anti-semitism, and it really grieves me to see Christians promote this kind of thing. The Bible is clear that God has not cast Israel away, for he promised that he never would. The heresy that the Church has replaced Israel has no foundation in scripture and is a reflection of two things: anti-semitism in the organized church, and the spirit of "where is the promise of his coming?". Christians got tired of waiting for Israel to be regathered and become a nation again, as prophesied, so instead of being patient and waiting on the Lord, the doctrine of supersessionism was born, teaching that the Church is the inheritor of all the blessings that were promised to Abraham and his seed. This heresy is based on the mangled interpretation of scripture, but still might have had a little merit if Israel had not become a nation again in 1948. Instead of admitting they were wrong, however, mainstream churches have doubled down and denied the legitimacy of the Jewish state, which is why we have Presbyterians and Episcopals supporting the stupidity of BDS instead of praising God for the fulfilled prophecy of a reborn Jewish state.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Two premises this article is based on fall flat when faced with history. First, that Zionism is a late 19-century movement fueled by European bankers to displace local Arabs from Palestine. There are so many things wrong with this premise, starting with the obvious one: If rich Jews were going to create a homeland for themselves out of some arbitrary piece of property, why would they choose an area -- Palestine -- that every contemporary account portrays as arid and useless land? Another, much bigger, blow to this premise is that Jews have been yearning for a return to their ancestral land -- which the Bible and history clearly identifies as Palestine -- since Jerusalem was sacked in 70 AD. "Next year in Jerusalem!", has a been a toast and a prayer at Passover for 2000 years. Not "next year in New York," or "next year in London," but in Jerusalem, the holy city where the temple of God belongs and Jesus Christ will reign. People who deny the Jews have a claim to the city and the land don't know history or their Bible.

Second, the article promulgates that myth that pre-tribulation doctrine is a relatively recent phenomenon, begun by John Darby in the late 1800's. This does not reflect fact at all, since we have evidence in writing going back to the second century that proves the pre-tribulation rapture was a doctrine taught by the early church and by church fathers.

At the heart of both these false premises is anti-semitism, and it really grieves me to see Christians promote this kind of thing. The Bible is clear that God has not cast Israel away, for he promised that he never would. The heresy that the Church has replaced Israel has no foundation in scripture and is a reflection of two things: anti-semitism in the organized church, and the spirit of "where is the promise of his coming?". Christians got tired of waiting for Israel to be regathered and become a nation again, as prophesied, so instead of being patient and waiting on the Lord, the doctrine of supersessionism was born, teaching that the Church is the inheritor of all the blessings that were promised to Abraham and his seed. This heresy is based on the mangled interpretation of scripture, but still might have had a little merit if Israel had not become a nation again in 1948. Instead of admitting they were wrong, however, mainstream churches have doubled down and denied the legitimacy of the Jewish state, which is why we have Presbyterians and Episcopals supporting the stupidity of BDS instead of praising God for the fulfilled prophecy of a reborn Jewish state.

Completely agree with the above points...

I won't post a long response here other that to say that our Lord sometimes buries wisdom in stories recorded for those who have ears to hear...

http://biblecentre.org/content.php?mode=7&item=1070

 

[Karlysymon]

appreciate the link. More to add later!

Another one with pre-trib slant but went to great lengths to examine both sides
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/is-modern-state-of-israel-prophetically-significant

@Lisa
at the end of the day, we'll all stand individually before God to answer why we believed what we now believe.