Church Taken Out Pre-wrath

Camidria

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I Agree with you here Scott, I have had dreams that I will experience the tribulation and so has my husband. I haven't truly gone into these prophecies in the Bible like all the others have, but I definitely want to learn!
 

Thunderian

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I have a couple questions, Scott, as I'm sure you knew I would.

Who are the elect, and what is the scripture used to back that up?

And if you are narrowing down the rapture to within the last 45 days of the Tribulation, why did Jesus say the following in Matthew 24?

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
 

Thunderian

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I Agree with you here Scott, I have had dreams that I will experience the tribulation and so has my husband. I haven't truly gone into these prophecies in the Bible like all the others have, but I definitely want to learn!
That's not what Chuck Missler teaches.

Tsk, tsk. :p
 

Thunderian

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Hey Thunderian,

I believe the elect is signified in the scriptures as Christians who are truly taking up their cross and following the Lord. The truth is I never did much study on the term "elect."
It's tough to prove based on scripture who the elect are in that passage. Paul refers to the Church as the elect, but Israel is referred to as "mine elect" by God several times in Isaiah. When Christ spoke of "the elect", it would have been assumed that he was speaking of Israel, but I guess the meaning depends on how you interpret other prophecy. I think the elect referred to is Israel, but I can't prove it at the moment.

The verse you mentioned never indicated both were born again. So one taken, the other left can be the Christian is taken and the unbeliever left.

Also, as in the days of Noah, the sinners were eating and drinking and had no clue but this wasn't true about Noah and his family.

Just like 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4. The Christians are not in darkness. The verse you posted alludes to the sinners being clueless, not the righteous.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


I think what's being taught is the imminence of Christ's return -- that he could return at any moment. Noah preached that destruction was coming, and the ark was the only way out. We are preaching that destruction is coming and that Jesus Christ is the only way out.

Part of the urgency of the message is that we don't know when the destruction will be here, but once Jesus Christ's church is complete -- the fullness of the gentiles Paul spoke of -- the ark of salvation which was here is gone, in the twinkling of an eye.

So just as in Noah's time, people will be going about their lives even as the Church is raptured.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


I don't know if this sounds like the kinds of activities Christians and non-Christians will be engaging in together during the last 45 days of the Tribulation, when shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

With everything that's going on, added to the fact that anyone who is a Christian will have a death sentence on them, I really feel the last thing a Christian and a non-Christian will be doing together is working in the fields by the light of the returning King of Glory as he prepares to trod the winepress of his wrath.

Hiding and screaming together, maybe.

However, right now, Christians and unbelievers are engaging in all sorts of non-apocalyptic activities, including working together in fields and mills. It makes more sense that the removal of Christians is something unexpected, that has been warned of by the faithful, but takes the unbelievers by surprise anyway, like, I don't know, a global flood or a rapture or something. :)

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Amen, and come quickly, Lord.
 

UnderAlienControl

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I feel like I gotta at least put this out there: There is no rapture. I repeat: there is no rapture. It's just an invention of John Darby and did not exist before 1830. Before it "popped into John Darby's head" no one had ever heard of a secret rapture doctrine.http://www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm You really believe Christians are going to be handed a "get out of jail free" card when the shite goes sideways? After all, if there aren't Christians here to persecute we couldn't really have a good 'ole rip roarin' Tribulation now could we? Who would the followers of The Beast have to hunt down if all the Christians are gone? This is where religion gets skewed: when a man interprets it wrong or just plain makes up stuff and gets people to believe and follow it. This is how religious cults are created, no? See: David Koresh, etc. etc. And let's not even talk about the Schofield Bible (which is taught a lot in the South). It was propaganda from the start. But hey, believe whatever gets you through the day, that's what I say... (<>..<>)
 
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Thunderian

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Yeah. I agree with some of the things you are saying but I don't take these verses literally.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Why don't you take them literally when you take others in the same chapter as literal? How do you determine which verses in Matthew 24 to take literally, and which not to?

This verse is difficult for pre-tribbers

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Seems to me like it's post-tribbers who have the trouble with it. They assume it's the seventh trumpet of Revelation when there is no need to.

In all honesty I don't desire debate. I was hoping you would put up a timeline like I did to demonstrate how the Daniel days coincide with the end times. This timeline I provided is easy to read and understand. I have never seen one with pre-trib demonstrated so easily and painlessly. If you have a good timeline I would love to see it. Or if you can explain the endtimes that coincide with Daniels days i would appreciate it.
I don't see the Church on that timeline. Other than that, I don't have a problem with the timeline as posted.

What would you like to discuss about Daniel?
 

Lisa

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Check out this timeline. It demonstrates the time between the second coming and the wrath falling as 45 days (the wrath will fall for 45 days). I believe during this 45 days Jesus will appear in the heavens coming on clouds in great glory. The church will be taken up as soon as Christ appears on the clouds (1 day of 45 days). So the wicked earth and in the inhabitants thereof will suffer wrath on earth as Jesus approaches over a 45 day period. Don't believe it will take 45 days?

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice. Before Jesus appears on the clouds there is no more light on the earth (Sun darkened, moon shall not give her light, stars shall fall).


When Jesus shall appear on the clouds his coming will light up the entire earth (with power and great glory)! And for 45 days Jesus coming will continue to light up the earth until he comes back in judgment.
Isn't the whole period before Jesus coming and God's wrath the great tribulation? You just have 3 1/2 years but in that time a whole lot of lawlessness is happening and woudon't that be known as the tribulation too?

Isn't God's wrath the 7th trumpet but that doesn't coincide with the battle of Armageddon. Isn't that before the battle of Armageddon? Because the battle of Armageddon pretty much ends everything.

Where does the Bible say that 10 countries sign a peace treaty? I thought that there were ten kings who had power for an hour to give to the beast? Doesn't mean they sign the peace treaty.

Where do you think the two witnesses come into play and the 144,000 sealed Jewish people?
 

Lisa

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Hi Lisa,
No pre-wrath is not pre-tribulation. The seven seals and the seven trumpets are the tribulation. The 7 bowls or vials are his wrath. What makes this chart interesting it it aligns the Daniel days really well. I have yet to find a chart that does this besides this one.

I think the writer of this timeline believed the same ten kings who will agree to give the Beast their power for one hour are in league with him (that's why they are part of the covenant).

Revelation 17:12-14

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

You see these ten kings aligned with the beast will also make war against the lamb. This makes the argument they are in league together under a covenant.

Regarding the 144,000 I have a teaching on my website if you are interested. Way too long to post here.
I have to go to work, but I'll get back to you on this tomorrow. I am interested in your website-what is it?
 

Lisa

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Hi Lisa,
No pre-wrath is not pre-tribulation. The seven seals and the seven trumpets are the tribulation. The 7 bowls or vials are his wrath. What makes this chart interesting it it aligns the Daniel days really well. I have yet to find a chart that does this besides this one.

I think the writer of this timeline believed the same ten kings who will agree to give the Beast their power for one hour are in league with him (that's why they are part of the covenant).

Revelation 17:12-14

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

You see these ten kings aligned with the beast will also make war against the lamb. This makes the argument they are in league together under a covenant.

Regarding the 144,000 I have a teaching on my website if you are interested. Way too long to post here.
I don't think you understood what I said. The first 3 1/2 years is part of the tribulation-right? Because, that's when the seals are opened? Edit: just opened up your website...I think you answer this.

That doesn't mean that the 10 kings make the treaty though, just that they hold the world power between them for that hour just so they could give it to the anti.
 
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Thunderian

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Daniel 12:12 says. Blessed is he who waits and comes to 1335. (Sorry for bad translation I am typing everything).

This is the church who endures tribulation. I don't believe in different churches. I believe in a clear interpretation of the scriptures.

The Church
The firstfruits (144,000)
The remnant (Israel who needs to see to believe)
I don't believe in different churches, either.

All of these who wait will be blessed. Including those martyred under the alter whom God tells to rest/wait (Revelation 6:11).

So the Daniel days equate to the 7 year timeline as per my OP (opening post). Those who wait clear throughout the entire tribulation will be blessed. This is the church.
If I may, where does the resurrection of Revelation 20 occur in your timeline?
 
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Daniel 12 is mainly about the end, ie hasn't happened yet BUT at it's conclusion it jumps back to the forthcoming major event.

8 And I heard, but I understood not. Then said I, “O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

9 And he said, “Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


ie this is the angel's way of saying 'I can't tell you any more about THAT period (ie the end time) but here's the forthcoming event for your people ie jews.

Daniel 12

10 Many shall be purified and made white and tried, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.


ie this is clearly not about the end time that hasn't happened yet...but about Daniel 11

Daniel 11


33 “Those wise teachers will help the other people understand what is happening. But even they will have to suffer persecution. Some of them will be killed with swords. Some of them will be burned or taken prisoner. Some of them will have their homes and things taken away. 34 When those wise people are punished, they will receive some help, but many people who join them will be hypocrites. 35 Some of the wise people will stumble and make mistakes. But the persecution must come so that they can be made stronger and purer until the time of the end. Then, at the right time, that time of the end will come.


The Maccabean revolt/antiochus epiphanes story is what Daniel 12:12 was referring to

Daniel 12
11 “The daily sacrifice will be stopped. There will be 1290 days from that time until the time that the terrible thing that destroys is set up. 12 The one who waits for and comes to the end of the 1335 days will be very happy.


Daniel 8
13 Then I heard two holy onese]">[e] talking with each other. One of them asked the other one, who had been speaking, “How long will the things in this vision last—the stopping of the daily sacrifices, the sin that destroys, and the trampling down of the holy place and heaven’s army?”


14 The other holy one said, “This will last for 2300 days. Then the holy place will be repaired.”


2300days=7 years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabean_Revolt
Date 167–160 BC


or

From the period where the sacrifice is stopped, until the abomination is set up =1290 days
from the period where the sacrifice is stopped to the beginning of the maccabean revolt=1335 days

The sacrificed was stopped in 169BC
The abomination was set up in 166AD and that year also marked the beginning of the maccabean revolt.
1290days=3.5 years

12 The one who waits for and comes to the end of the 1335 days will be very happy.


This refers to the sacrifice therefore has nothing to do with christian churches.
 

Thunderian

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If you read Revelation 19 an army in fine linen comes with Christ. This is them, those beheaded during tribulation. They will reign with Christ 1000 years. This is explained right after chapter 19 is culminated.

And before you say, but, but what about the dragon in Revelation 20:2,3 ? Doesn't Christ come back to conquer him. If those resurrected in the previous chapter (19) comeback with him, then you're saying their resurrection predates Satan being bound. But according to my understanding, Revelation 20:2,3 comes before Revelation 20:4-6. So you're not making sense.

You don't understand the book of Revelation. And that's why it doesn't make sense to you.

What happens in Revelation 19 through 20:1-3 is then clarified in Revelation 20:4-6.

It's almost like Christ is saying, "I will return with this awesome army clothed in white linen. The dragon, antichrist and false prophet will be judged. Satan will then be bound. Oh, and that awesome army that returned with me... these are those guys (Revelation 20:4-6).
OK, and then what happens?
 

Thunderian

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I meant, what does the Bible say happens next? You speak of reigning with Christ for 1000 years. What will that entail?
 

Thunderian

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I'm not sure why you won't answer a straightforward question, but I would appreciate the courtesy of an answer. Who are you reigning over in the Millennium?
 

Thunderian

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I will either be reigning with Christ 1000 years
You obviously got this idea from somewhere. If not your studies, then where?

Why won't you answer my questions? Have I offended you somehow? I am trying to understand your motivation for starting a thread about something you admit that you haven't studied, and your refusal to entertain any kind of real discussion of the subject. The tone of your posts and your reaction to my questions don't make any sense.
 

Thunderian

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If you read Revelation 19 an army in fine linen comes with Christ. This is them, those beheaded during tribulation. They will reign with Christ 1000 years. This is explained right after chapter 19 is culminated.
I will either be reigning with Christ 1000 years or I'll be in hell.
Who are you reigning over in the Millennium?
This question has nothing to do with my thread.
After that, am I supposed to take you seriously?
 
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