Does God Place Conditions on His Gift of Salvation?

Lisa

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Well, the topic is Gods salvation Lisa. Something both Jewish and Muslim people have scripture regarding as well as Christians.
I can’t say that I can count muslim scripture in this discussion..it has no place here.
 






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I can’t say that I can count muslim scripture in this discussion..it has no place here.
Should have been more specific then. Too late!
Edit: This aint even a thread you started?! You are one whacked-out weirdo homeskillet.
 






floss

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Did you read about them repenting? All I’ve read about them is that they did the blame game and Adam had the nerve to blame God for giving him the woman...doesn’t sound like repentance to me.
What do you mean about them repenting? According to your belief, it's impossible for them to repent and get save again. Now you have a huge dilemma.

1. you said A&E lost their salvation because they did not repent
2. you believe once someone have fallen away they cannot be renew again unto repentance

How do you reconcile this falsehood?
 






Lisa

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What do you mean about them repenting? According to your belief, it's impossible for them to repent and get save again. Now you have a huge dilemma.

1. you said A&E lost their salvation because they did not repent
2. you believe once someone have fallen away they cannot be renew again unto repentance

How do you reconcile this falsehood?
Well, don’t ya think if they repented of their sin..God would have forgiven them...and we would know about it in scripture? But we don’t know they did..the last thing we know about them is they did the blame game..so unless they repented then I don’t see how they could have any part with eternity with God is all I’m saying.

Was what they did falling away..idk..I just know they didn’t apologize for what they did..and so that does mean that there is sin between them and God.
 






phipps

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You can bring up anything and everything...but does any of that trump what Hebrews 6:4-8 says? That’s all I’m saying..that verse says that once fallen you can’t come back from it. And unless you find a verse that says that verse does not say that or is wrong..then its true...you can’t come back once you’ve fallen away from the faith.
I see so Hebrews 6 is going to trump all the other scriptures in the Bible that show us people who fell away and repented plus Jesus' parable about the prodigal son and what Revelation 2 says? You think those verses cancel out the others? You are rejecting truth for your false beliefs.

If anyone comes on here and they've fallen away from the faith and they read what you posted they might give up on repenting and returning to Christ and that would not be right. God will welcome back anyone who comes back to Him and repents and gets back on the right path. As long as the Holy Spirit is still pleading with them, It could lead them to repentance and restoration. That is the truth of His Word. Please stop misrepresenting God.
 






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Lisa

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I see so Hebrews 6 is going to trump all the other scriptures in the Bible that show us people who fell away and repented plus Jesus' parable about the prodigal son and what Revelation 2 says? You think those verses cancel out the others? You are rejecting truth for your false beliefs.

If anyone comes on here and they've fallen away from the faith and they read what you posted they might give up on repenting and returning to Christ and that would not be right. God will welcome back anyone who comes back to Him and repents and gets back on the right path. As long as the Holy Spirit is still pleading with them, It could lead them to repentance and restoration. That is the truth of His Word. Please stop misrepresenting God.
Can you tell me Hebrews 6 doesn’t mean anything? It talks about falling away which we agree on and then it goes one further...it says if you fall away you can’t be renewed. That’s falling away..that’s not the prodigal son. Those are different things.

Do people who’ve fallen away realize they’ve fallen away from the faith? Aren’t they just deceived..they could still think they are Christians because they come to Jesus and He says He never knew you...that could be the only way someone knows...

Sure...if the Holy Spirit is still involved...but that would mean that they aren’t fallen away, right?

I’m not misrepresenting God...scripture also tells us..
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

I suppose that doesn’t mean anything either?
 






phipps

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@Lisa

Can you tell me Hebrews 6 doesn’t mean anything? It talks about falling away which we agree on and then it goes one further...it says if you fall away you can’t be renewed. That’s falling away..that’s not the prodigal son. Those are different things.
I repeatedly keep saying (because its true) that the Bible does not contradict itself. If it seems like its contradicting itself, that simply means we have not understood something. So find out what those verses mean in Hebrews 6. They do not cancel out the fact that the Bible definitely shows us that those who fall away can return to Christ. They are not lost causes unless they commit the unpardonable sin.

The prodigal son is an example of someone who fell away from the faith. The son was with his father (which means he was saved, the father in the parable represents God). After he was given his inheritance that he asked for, he went away and lead a life without God. That is falling away. When the son came back to his senses he went back to his father and repented, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son" (Luke 15:21). The whole household rejoiced because he returned. The father said to to his servants, "Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found" (Luke 15:22-24).

Do people who’ve fallen away realize they’ve fallen away from the faith? Aren’t they just deceived..they could still think they are Christians because they come to Jesus and He says He never knew you...that could be the only way someone knows...
Yes many people who've fallen away from the faith realise it at some point, David and Solomon did. That is why they repented. Some are deceived and think they have the truth when they don't and some think that they can please God with their works. Those are the people God will tell He knew them not.

Sure...if the Holy Spirit is still involved...but that would mean that they aren’t fallen away, right?
I've just given the examples of David and Solomon. Solomon fell away from the faith for years and yet he still repented. No one can repent without the Holy Spirit. God does not give up on us easily even on those who fall away for years. I know such people in my Church. They left for years and came back.

I’m not misrepresenting God...scripture also tells us..

2 Corinthians‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​
You are misrepresenting God because He does not give up on us that easily. In fact God never gives up on us ever. The Bible is clear on that. That means some will hear Him through the Holy Spirit and return to Him.

2 Corinthians 13:5-6 in the KJV says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates." Does this sound as though if we fail God abandons us?

I suppose that doesn’t mean anything either?
All Scripture means something and its all important. Every single bit of it. But you have misinterpreted it to mean something it doesn't. Don't reject all the scripture that shows God forgives those who fall away if they repent for just a few verses that seem to contradict the others.














 






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Lisa

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I repeatedly keep saying (because its true) that the Bible does not contradict itself. If it seems like its contradicting itself, that simply means we have not understood something. So find out what those verses mean in Hebrews 6. They do not cancel out the fact that the Bible definitely shows us that those who fall away can return to Christ. They are not lost causes unless they commit the unpardonable sin.
Ok...I think you’re the one not understanding. Hebrews says you can lose your faith if you fall away...point blank and you’re gonna say that’s not true?


Yes many people who've fallen away from the faith realise it at some point, David and Solomon did. That is why they repented. Some are deceived and think they have the truth when they don't and some think that they can please God with their works. Those are the people God will tell He knew them not.
Did David fall away or did he sin and repent of his sins? Isn’t Solomon the one who did fall away because of his wives? I didn’t know he repented of that...

You are misrepresenting God because He does not give up on us that easily. In fact God never gives up on us ever. The Bible is clear on that. That means some will hear Him through the Holy Spirit and return to Him.
But I’m not misrepresenting God. What I said is in scripture. That’s not the only place that says we lose our salvation.
I wouldn’t count on once saved always saved...or that God won’t let us go if we don’t want to stay..He is good at warning people..and we are bad at hearing the warning and always looking for what makes us happy to think about God. That’s why it’s so important to know scripture and to know God and His ways.

Romans‬ ‭11:19-22‬ ‭
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
‭‭
2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.


Hebrews 10:36-39
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


Hebrews‬ ‭3:6-14, 19‬ ‭
But Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS, WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS. THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS ’; AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’ ” Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
‭‭​
 






phipps

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@Lisa

Ok...I think you’re the one not understanding. Hebrews says you can lose your faith if you fall away...point blank and you’re gonna say that’s not true?
I understand thank you. if Hebrews says you can lose faith if you fall away, then that means you can be saved too doesn't it? I already explained how someone can lose salvation. The unpardonable sin.

Did David fall away or did he sin and repent of his sins? Isn’t Solomon the one who did fall away because of his wives? I didn’t know he repented of that...
David fell away. One does not do what he did without falling away first. You should read his repentance (Psalms 51). It was deep and heartfelt. He made no excuses for himself after he realised the gravity of what he'd done. David asked God not to remove His Spirit from him. When God removes His Spirit, you've committed the unpardonable sin. David asked God to erase the record of his sin from the books God keeps. You should read Psalms 32. Its about the joy of forgiveness. David represents all of us and shows us no matter how far we fall, if we repent whole heartedly and return to God, we will be forgiven.

But I’m not misrepresenting God. What I said is in scripture. That’s not the only place that says we lose our salvation.
I wouldn’t count on once saved always saved...or that God won’t let us go if we don’t want to stay..He is good at warning people..and we are bad at hearing the warning and always looking for what makes us happy to think about God. That’s why it’s so important to know scripture and to know God and His ways.
You are misrepresenting God and saying He gives us only chance at salvation. That is not biblical and not of God. Like the prodigal son, God gives us other chances and never tires of waiting. He is patient and long suffering.

Romans‬ ‭11:19-22‬ ‭
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Lets read two more verses from the scripture you posted. Verses 23-24, "And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" So here we see both Jews and Gentiles, if they stop unbelieving, they will be grafted back into the tree. So they can be re-saved can't they?
‭‭

2 Peter 2:20-21‬, ‭Hebrews 10:36-39, do these verses say they can't repent and return to Christ? That people are given one shot at salvation and that is it? Wouldn't that contradict God's Word that says we can come back to Him?

Hebrews‬ ‭3:6-14, 19‬ ‭
But Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS, WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS. THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS ’; AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’ ” Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
‭‭

Have you forgotten how God worked with the children of Israel in the wilderness? He did not punish any of them immediately after their unbelief. The children of Israel were given chance after chance to repent but instead their rebellion increased until God pronounced judgement on them. They were not punished on the first hurdle as you know. That is why of the original adults who left Egypt, only two made it to the promised land. Paul was not going to go into detail of the whole journey of the wilderness in Hebrews. We can read it ourselves and see the Israelites had many chances.

I noticed you chose to ignore Solomon's story and the parable of the prodigal son. You can't ignore certain aspects of the Bible to make your point. There are no double standards in the Bible. Either God will not give anyone a second chance or He will. My Bible is clear He does give second chances to all of us. Therefore there is hope for those who fall away from the faith. They can come back to Christ and repent. He will forgive them, they can be re-saved and re-start their walk with Christ. God can make them whole again. No one should lose hope if they fall away. Its better not to fall away of course because we might not find our way back. That is why there are so many warnings against falling away or apostasy. We might quench or grieve the Holy spirit and commit the unpardonable sin. This is the truth of the Bible. God bless.
 






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Lisa

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I understand thank you. if Hebrews says you can lose faith if you fall away, then that means you can be saved too doesn't it? I already explained how someone can lose salvation. The unpardonable sin.
Dude...read the scripture carefully..it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. That’s pretty stark and allows for no confusion dont

Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​
‭‭



David fell away. One does not do what he did without falling away first. You should read his repentance (Psalms 51). It was deep and heartfelt. He made no excuses for himself after he realised the gravity of what he'd done. David asked God not to remove His Spirit from him. When God removes His Spirit, you've committed the unpardonable sin. David asked God to erase the record of his sin from the books God keeps. You should read Psalms 32. Its about the joy of forgiveness. David represents all of us and shows us no matter how far we fall, if we repent whole heartedly and return to God, we will be forgiven.
David didn’t fall away, he sinned. He made a bad decision or decisions. He was called out in it and he saw the error of his ways and he did repent. So then that restored his relationship with God. He didn’t fall away because if he did he wouldn’t repent for one and he couldn’t come back from it like Hebrews 6 talks about.

Lets read two more verses from the scripture you posted. Verses 23-24, "And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" So here we see both Jews and Gentiles, if they stop unbelieving, they will be grafted back into the tree. So they can be re-saved can't they?
Israel is a special case...only a partial hardening has happened to them.
Romans‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE
UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”​
‭‭
2 Peter 2:20-21‬, ‭Hebrews 10:36-39, do these verses say they can't repent and return to Christ? That people are given one shot at salvation and that is it? Wouldn't that contradict God's Word that says we can come back to Him?
As for 2 Peter...the last state is worst than the first doesn’t mean anything good does it? Does that Sind like you could come back for the last sta

And for Hebrews 10..you don’t really want to shrink back to destruction do you? Does that sound like you can come back from that?

Ya, God works with everyone. He doesn’t want anyone to perish and we all sin, however falling away from the faith is different entirely. Once you do you can’t be brought back so it’s imperative that one doesn’t fall away from the faith and is warned about it instead of pretending that it can’t happen especially when scripture says that it can and what happens to someone who falls away..

Have you forgotten how God worked with the children of Israel in the wilderness? He did not punish any of them immediately after their unbelief. The children of Israel were given chance after chance to repent but instead their rebellion increased until God pronounced judgement on them. They were not punished on the first hurdle as you know. That is why of the original adults who left Egypt, only two made it to the promised land. Paul was not going to go into detail of the whole journey of the wilderness in Hebrews. We can read it ourselves and see the Israelites had many chances.
Sure they had chance but when they finally blew it..God was done with them..those adults didn’t go into the promised land but died wandering for 40 years. Why do we think that it would or could be different for us? Those are God’s chosen people..Romans 11 says don’t be conceited..

Romans‬ ‭11:20-21‬ ‭
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.​
‭‭

I noticed you chose to ignore Solomon's story and the parable of the prodigal son.
‭‭1 Kings‬ ‭11:4-7, 9-10‬ ‭
For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites. Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done. Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.

Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded.”​


We don’t even read that Solomon repented from this but God tore his kingdom form him He was so mad at Solomon. Beyond that..I don’t know what happened to Solomon but again of you don’t repent from your sins...and this is big..don’t you have sin between you and God? Isn’t that a problem?

‭‭1 Kings‬ ‭11:11‬ ‭
So the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant.​



What else do you want me to say about the prodigal? Obviously he didn’t fall away or he couldn’t be brought back from it. I don’t see how it corresponds with falling away where you cant be renewed again.

You can't ignore certain aspects of the Bible to make your point.
It seems to me that’s exactly what you are doing. Ignoring Hebrews 6:4-8 to make your point...bringing in other verses as a sort of proof that you’re right when not any of those verses or people you’ve mentioned trumps what is point bland said in Hebrews 6 and talked about in other verses. If you fall away from the faith it’s bad...don’t do it! And that’s the warning we should have for people. Not ignore it like it doesn’t exist because we want to believe we are secure and it can’t happen to us..because clearly God says it can.
 






floss

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This tell me salvation can be lost is a false doctrine. Those who believe this can't even agree on whether one can be re-save, re-repent, re-born again.

Just about everyone who believe you cannot lose your salvation are consistent.
1. Once you're born again, "you can't re-enter your mother's womb"
2. You can't lose something you never earn
3. You didn't lose it, you just never had it
 






Lisa

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This tell me salvation can be lost is a false doctrine. Those who believe this can't even agree on whether one can be re-save, re-repent, re-born again.

Just about everyone who believe you cannot lose your salvation are consistent.
1. Once you're born again, "you can't re-enter your mother's womb"
2. You can't lose something you never earn
3. You didn't lose it, you just never had it
But you forget...
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

Matthew‬ ‭24:10‬-11
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

Hebrews‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
‭‭

Hebrews‬ ‭6:1-2, 4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
‭‭
Hebrews‬ ‭10:37-39‬ ‭
FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT M Y RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.​
‭‭
‭‭​
 






floss

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Hebrews‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
‭‭
Proved my point again

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

the fallen away has an UNBELIEVING HEART, were they ever saved with an UNBELIEVING HEART?
 






Lisa

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Proved my point again

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

the fallen away has an UNBELIEVING HEART, were they ever saved with an UNBELIEVING HEART?
But you have to have a believing heart in the first place to be able to fall away from God...and he’s talking to the brethren...
 






floss

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But you have to have a believing heart in the first place to be able to fall away from God...and he’s talking to the brethren...
I hope you don't believe every time brethen are used it's referred to the saves...that would be naive.

Where does it say those who fall away had a believing heart?

The scripture you quoted clearly said the fallen away had an evil and UNBELIEVING heart. You're telling me they used to have an LOVING AND BELIEVING heart before?

Can a saved brethen have a evil and unbelieving heart?
 






Lisa

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I hope you don't believe every time brethen are used it's referred to the saves...that would be naive.

Where does it say those who fall away had a believing heart?

The scripture you quoted clearly said the fallen away had an evil and UNBELIEVING heart. You're telling me they used to have an LOVING AND BELIEVING heart before?

Can a saved brethen have a evil and unbelieving heart?
Read it again...slowly...the author is totally talking to the brethren..

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
 






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