Does God Place Conditions on His Gift of Salvation?

floss

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Read it again...slowly...the author is totally talking to the brethren..

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
What does that tell you? If they fall away is because of their evil and unbelieving heart. Once again, it is your misconception that those who had an evil and unbelieving heart were once saved.
 






Lisa

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What does that tell you? If they fall away is because of their evil and unbelieving heart. Once again, it is your misconception that those who had an evil and unbelieving heart were once saved.
He’s talking to the saved...in all those verses I quoted...those are saved people.
 






floss

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The only thing that really needs to be said...

A little leaven (works), leaven the whole lump for sure. Any Christians that believed Adam & Eve are not save/lost salvation is a huge deal breaker for me. They are literally the very first to be pardon by the Grace of God.
 






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Lisa

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They are literally the very first to be pardon by the Grace of God.
How is that? Wouldn’t the sin stay between God and them...isn’t that what separates us from God? Win me over to your way of thinking if you think so strongly on this...
 






phipps

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How much obedience is required to be saved?

Rarely would we ask, “How much faith does it take to be saved?” because we realize that either a person has faith or they don’t have faith. Although there is no clear point between faith and no faith, the extremes are both clearly recognizable. In the same way, there is no definable point on the spectrum of works where obedience and disobedience meet but both extremes are clearly recognizable. God knows whether or not you have obedient faith. But to those who are somewhere in the middle between obedient and disobedient, Jesus says: “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth” (Revelation 3:15-16)

Below I have compiled a list of passages spoken by Jesus which emphasize the role of works or obedience in our salvation. Again and again, they tell us that obedience does have a role in our salvation because we will be judged by our works:

Matthew 5:19, "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:21-27, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Matthew 16:27, "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Matthew 19:17, "So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 24:13, “He who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matthew 25:33-35,
“He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink.‘”

Luke 6:46-49, "But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

Luke 13:22-27, "And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’"

John 3:20-21, "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.

Luke 17:20, “So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

John 5:28-29, “All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

John 8:31, "Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

John 8:51, "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.

John 14:15,If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:21, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

John 14:23-24, "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."

John 15:10, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."

John 15:14, "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you."

Revelation 22:12-14,
And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."


 






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floss

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How is that? Wouldn’t the sin stay between God and them...isn’t that what separates us from God? Win me over to your way of thinking if you think so strongly on this...
At this point in your Christian walk and you haven't figured out that Adam & Eve were a saved child of God, I don't have any reason nor power to win you over. Only the Holy Ghost can.
 






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Daciple

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While Lisa is exceedingly wrong in her overall ideology, one of which we have debated in endless circles for years now, at least she is honest in the aspect that if you incorrectly believe that one can lose their Salvation, then you MUST also believe that you can never come back to Salvation. I applaud her on being honest in her incorrect doctrine and that she doesnt make non sense excuses like we see of Phipps here, trying to lie to people and tell them IF you can lose your Salvation, or IF you have lost your Salvation you can get it back.

Clearly both Phipps and Lisa are wholly incorrect in their ideologies, and both of their ideologies amount to a Works Based Salvation of which causes one to have fallen from Grace as Scripture states because they are dependent upon themselves for Salvation or to "keep" their Salvation. The simple fact is not one person who holds to the ideology that one can lose their Salvation can ever answer when exactly that does occur. How many Sins? Which Sins? Whats that line? None of you can answer that.

The fact is the idea of losing your Salvation goes completely against who Jesus is, and who God is as revealed about their Nature in the Word of God. What you have is Jesus and God telling US that we need to forgive other 7x70 which is essentially to say FOREVER, we as flawed, imperfect humans are called to 100% of the time Forgive others, but you think that Jesus and God dont or havent already Forgiven someone for ALL of their Sins?

Salvation comes because Jesus did EVERYTHING needed during His Life, Death and Resurrection, absolutely NOTHING else is needed for Salvation NOR to maintain Salvation. The only requirement is that one admits and understands that they are a Sinner, and then takes the Faith GOD HAS ALREADY GIVEN THEM, and puts that Faith in Christ believing that He has done everything needed to bring AND maintain their Salvation.

If you add ANYTHING to that simple aspect of Salvation then the Grace of God literally has zero effect on you, you have fallen from Grace and now are contending that SOMETHING of yourself besides BELIEVING in Christ, is needed for and to keep your Salvation. Here is a fact, if you think that your Sins are going to end your Salvation, then you literally are saying that your own Works or lack thereof are MORE POWERFUL THAN THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST.

That idea itself needs to be Repented of just as much as a believer needs to Repent of Sin itself to stay in RIGHT RELATIONSHIP with God. Jesus Christ died for ALL my Sins, not a few, not most, not almost all, but literally every single sin that I have ever or will ever commit, they ALL were placed on Him at the Cross. Jesus suffered not some, not most, but took ALL the Wrath of God for my Sins on the Cross. Jesus was a sponge that absorbed ALL my Sins and ALL the Wrath of God that is due me.

My Salvation is strictly found in THAT, it is only because I believe in THAT that my Salvation is given, and secured. There is absolutely no one on Earth that has believed from their heart with zero doubts in the Gospel, who has tasted the Holy Spirit, that "fell away" from the saving Grace of God. I just want the people here today who do believe in Christ for their Savior, could you ever DENY the Gospel?

Lisa can YOU personally ever in your life see yourself denying the Gospel? Phipps can YOU personally ever see yourself denying the Gospel?

I know if you are honest and not trying to win a stupid internet argument, that you both and every other believer in Christ, will say NEVER would I deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ, however you are trying to tell me that other can and have? Nonsense.

If you get Saved, the Holy Spirit changes your heart LITERALLY, the Old Man dies and a LITERAL NEW MAN comes to reside inside of you. You LITERALLY become a new person, the Spirit LITERALLY comes and dwells inside of you. Now if you dont actually have a point in time where THAT happened to you, then sure I can see how you ignorantly believe that someone can lose their Salvation, because you havent actually experienced the change of being Born Again. However if you can look back on your life, if you can see the person you were and then put a finger on the day, the time, the place in which your heart literally went from unbelief to belief, when the Old Man died, when the New Man was Born, when you were Saved, then you know with ZERO doubts, that it is impossible for your Salvation to ever be Lost.

Regardless of what valley or mountain you find yourself on, no matter what Sin you end up battling, falling into and then by Grace and Faith in Christ overcoming, no matter what it is that happens in your life, if you have actually experienced a True Born Again Salvation Moment, then you know there is NO POSSIBLE WAY IN THE WORLD TO EVER DENY IT.

So one thing I would have to say, if you believe in losing your Salvation, and you DONT have that pinpoint time, then maybe YOU need to check your own Salvation, because what I can tell you, is that I can take you to the place and tell you the time that the Lord Saved Me, and there is nothing on this planet that can stop THAT experience, being Born Again from NOT being True. I am Saved and will always be Saved because of the Grace of God thru the Mercy He extended in Christ Jesus.

 






Daciple

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In the end as always this debate comes down to Justification vs Sanctification. So how do YOU receive Justification?

According to Phipps and Lisa, it is by their own works, keeping their own Salvation, in whatever form it is that they choose to think or tell others they must do in order to be Justified.

I personally will stick with the Word of God on Justification, who Justifies me?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Who can lay any charge against me? Even I cant lay a charge against me, why? Because I am Gods Elect, and it is HE that Justifies me. And furthermore, what is it that once Saved, once being Gods Elect that can separate me from the Love of Christ?

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am persuaded that NOTHING at all now or in the future, powers or angels, anything at ALL can ever or will ever separate me from the Love of God which is in Christ Jesus. There is NOTHING that exists that has the power or ability to fully separate me from Christ.

This I am 100% persuaded of, I am convinced, with zero doubts, I hope that one day those that proclaim they can lose their Salvation, can come to be persuaded by God as I have, and as Paul was, that literally nothing will ever separate you from Christ Jesus and the love of God...

If you believe that people can lose their Salvation then you literally believe that there are things that CAN, and MAY and DO separate you from the Love of God in Christ Jesus, I hope you really think on that in comparison to what Paul said about what can separate us from Christ...
 






SquaredCircle

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Forgive me, I had forgotten about that. However, since you're again making the false statement that a person needs to be baptized to be saved, I think I get a pass on asking the question again.



I'm sorry, but this is such utter garbage. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then it's necessary for everyone -- not just those who are able to get around to it. Does God also give special dispensations to those who can't find the time to accept Jesus Christ? Think about what you're saying, for a change.

The Bible says that salvation is obtained by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by any work. Baptism is clearly a work, and therefore, cannot be necessary for salvation. When you say baptism is necessary for salvation, but then say that, in special cases, it is not, based on no criteria other than "God understands the heart, and he'll make it all right", you stand the risk of veering into universalist doctrine.

There is one clear demand made by God for an unbeliever to be granted salvation: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. It doesn't say, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, get baptised, have a minister lay hands on you to receive the Spirit of God, endure to the end, and then thou shalt be saved."



Put me on ignore if you hate having to defend your mangling of the word of God, but I am enjoined by the Holy Spirit inside me to call you out on your lies, and I will follow his urging, and not yours.
So why did not god expose all people of earth at the same time of the Holy Spirit and the gifts ? Its just a story my friend ! If man has power to receive or deny gods gifts then man becomes more powerful than god !
Did you have children to place ultimatums upon them with denial of care and love if they dont follow your rules ?
Man gave god human attributes so man can behave how he wants , because even god blessed David who was a horrible person !
Everyone wants god to bless their ways and few people ever bless God through silence and ignorance to something that is and isnt !
Why did Jesus not show all the Asian and America’s peoples how to gain the Holy Spirit ?
Ill tell you why , because Jesus and after Jesus’s death his brother James were trying to reform Jews only ! Paul preached faith to the gentiles as a way to salvation vs works ( Jewish way of the Law)
James and Paul disagreed with each other on Christ’s intent . Rome backed Paul’s theology , because that helped Rome put all under control and one bible to rule them all .
James had Paul hauled in for not following what Christ taught , but Paul had gained popularity, because it was a easy way to salvation ( faith) and it allowed gentiles in !
Your whole religion is based on a hijack of what Jesus was and taught . The hijacker was Paul a Roman sympathiser who left the Law !
 






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A Freeman

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Those of you who claim to be “SAVED” already, are WRONG (John 3:13). You do not mark your own test. Only the Lord marks your test and you will have absolutely NO say in it (John 5:22). You would do well to learn some fresh and real humility and start again, this time DOING what the Lord says and not what you decide yourself (Lucifer/Satan/Iblis really). The ego “Self” has to be “crucified DAILY” (Luke 9:23, Gal. 2:20) until it is DEAD and you want only to serve your Lord and the common good, keeping the COMMANDments; Covenants; His Laws and Ways and NOT your own.
 






Lisa

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At this point in your Christian walk and you haven't figured out that Adam & Eve were a saved child of God, I don't have any reason nor power to win you over. Only the Holy Ghost can.
Just like that? Is it because you can’t really prove they are?
 






Lisa

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While Lisa is exceedingly wrong in her overall ideology, one of which we have debated in endless circles for years now, at least she is honest in the aspect that if you incorrectly believe that one can lose their Salvation, then you MUST also believe that you can never come back to Salvation. I applaud her on being honest in her incorrect doctrine and that she doesnt make non sense excuses like we see of Phipps here, trying to lie to people and tell them IF you can lose your Salvation, or IF you have lost your Salvation you can get it back.
How am I wrong..when scripture is what is informing my theology. Can you really disprove that scripture doesn’t say what it says? You can’t..you can only bring in other verses that don’t actually answer to Hebrews 6:4-8. Or Hebrews 10:38-39...or any of the other verses that I painstakingly put together to show that I think that we can fall away from the faith.

Lisa can YOU personally ever in your life see yourself denying the Gospel? Phipps can YOU personally ever see yourself denying the Gospel?
Matthew‬ ‭26:33-35‬ ‭
But Peter said to Him, “ Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away.” Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You.” All the disciples said the same thing too.”​
‭‭
Peter thought he could never do it either..but did in the right circumstances. And though Peter was able to come back from it..I think that was because he understood what he did and was bitterly upset over it. I think the falling away is people who aren’t like that. They had their ears tickled..they went for doctrines of demons..they were deceived. That’s what God tells us to watch out for...to test ourselves to see that we are in the faith. Why would He need us to do that if we couldn’t lose our salvation..why would it matter if we believed correctly or not? Because doesn’t a little leaven leaven the whole lump of dough? I think it takes a while to fall away..but maybe it doesn’t..one should always be on the alert..don’t ya think?

And you talk a good talk daciple..but aren’t you the one that went headlong back into your sinful lifestyle? If you want to talk about never..maybe you should worry about going there again?

In the end as always this debate comes down to Justification vs Sanctification. So how do YOU receive Justification?

According to Phipps and Lisa, it is by their own works, keeping their own Salvation, in whatever form it is that they choose to think or tell others they must do in order to be Justified.
No..its by faith...keeping to the faith. You have to begin with faith and you have to end with faith...if you are no longer in the faith..watch out!! We know the devil is like a roaring lion..looking for someone to devour...why do you think we have those kinds of warnings anyway?



 






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floss

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Just like that? Is it because you can’t really prove they are?
Is it POSSIBLE for Jesus to say "Depart from me, I NEVER knew you (Adam & Eve)"?

Many here have been showing you proof after proof that salvation cannot be lost but it doesn't mean anything because your misconception of Heb6 trumped all other verses. There are no amount of proof you will be satisfied with so I'm not even trying anymore.
 






Lisa

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Is it POSSIBLE for Jesus to say "Depart from me, I NEVER knew you (Adam & Eve)"?

Many here have been showing you proof after proof that salvation cannot be lost but it doesn't mean anything because your misconception of Heb6 trumped all other verses. There are no amount of proof you will be satisfied with so I'm not even trying anymore.
I would think if there was a verse that could trump Hebrews 6:4-8..you surely would have shown it by now.

Can Jesus say He never knew any one in the world? After all He formed us all in our mothers womb...He knows everyone. Yet..He will be saying that to people.
 






phipps

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Can anyone be saved in God's kingdom without obeying His Word?

“Not everyone who says to Me,‘Lord, Lord,’shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).

“If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).

“He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9)

No. Scripture is very clear on this. Salvation and the kingdom of heaven are for those who obey the Lord’s commands. God does not promise eternal life to those who merely make a profession of faith or are church members or are baptized, but rather to those who do His will, which is revealed in Scripture. Of course, this obedience is possible only through Christ (Acts 4:12).

Why does God require obedience? Why is it necessary?

“Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:14).

“He who sins against me wrongs his own soul; all those who hate me love death” (Proverbs 8:36).

“The LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive” (Deuteronomy 6:24).

Because only one path leads to God’s kingdom. All roads do not lead to the same place. The Bible is the map—a guidebook with all the instructions, warnings, and information on how to safely reach that kingdom. To disregard any of it leads us away from God and His kingdom. The universe of God is one of law and order—including natural, moral, and spiritual. Breaking any of these laws has fixed consequences. If the Bible had not been given, people would have sooner or later discovered, by trial and error, that the great principles of the Bible exist and are true. When ignored, they result in sickness, torment, and unhappiness of every kind. Thus, the words of the Bible are not merely advice that we can accept or ignore without consequences. The Bible even tells what these consequences are and explains how to avoid them. A person cannot live any way he wishes and still become Christlike—any more than a builder can ignore the blueprints for a house without running into trouble.This is why God wants you to follow the blueprint of Holy Scripture.There is no other way to become like Him and, thus, be fitted for a place in His kingdom.There is simply no other way to true happiness.

Why does God permit disobedience to continue? Why not destroy sin and sinners now?

“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him” (Jude 1:14-15).

“As I live, says the LORD, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God” (Romans 14:11).

God will not destroy sin until everyone has been fully convinced of His justice, love, and mercy. All will finally realize that God, by asking for obedience, is not trying to force His will upon us, but rather is trying to keep us from hurting and destroying ourselves.The problem of sin is not settled until even the most cynical, hardened sinners are convinced of God’s love and confess that He is just. It will take, perhaps, a major catastrophe to convince some, but the horrible results of sinful living will finally convince all that God is just and right.

Will the disobedient actually be destroyed?

“God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment” (2 Peter 2:4).

“All the wicked He will destroy” (Psalm 145:20).

“In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

Yes. The disobedient, including the devil and his angels, will all be destroyed. This being true, surely it is time to abandon all fuzziness regarding what is right or wrong. It is not safe for us to depend on our own notions and feelings of right and wrong. Our only safety is depending on God’s Word. (See Study Guide 11 for details on the destruction of sin and Study Guide 8 on Jesus’ second coming.)

You want to please God, but is it really possible to keep all of His commandments?

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find” (Matthew 7:7).

“Be diligent [study] to present yourself approved to God ... rightly dividing the word of truth” (2Timothy2:15).

“If any one wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God”(John 7:17).

“Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you”(John 12:35).“As soon as they hear of me they obey me” (Psalm 18:44).

God promises to keep you from error and lead you safely to all truth if you will (1) pray earnestly for guidance, (2) sincerely study God’s Word, and (3) follow truth as soon as you are shown.

Does God count people guilty for disobeying Bible truth that has never been made clear to them?

“If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ There fore your sin remains” (John 9:41).

“To him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin” (James 4:17).

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you” (Hosea 4:6).

“Seek, and you will find” (Matthew 7:7).

If you have had no opportunity to learn a certain Bible truth, God does not hold you accountable for it. The Bible teaches that you are responsible to God for the light (knowledge of right) you have. But don’t be careless with His mercy! Some refuse or neglect to study, seek, learn, and listen and they will be destroyed because they have “rejected knowledge.” To play the ostrich in these crucial matters is fatal. It is our responsibility to search diligently for truth.

But God isn’t particular about obedience on every detail, is He?

“Surely none of the men who came up from Egypt ... shall see the land ... because they have not wholly followed Me, except Caleb ... and Joshua ... for they have wholly followed the LORD” (Numbers32:11,12).

“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4).

“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” (John 15:14).

Indeed—He is particular. God’s people in Old Testament times learned this the hard way. Those who left Egypt for the Promised Land were a multitude in number. Of this group, only two, Caleb and Joshua, fully followed the Lord, and they alone entered Canaan. The others died in the wilderness. Jesus said we are to live by“every word”of the Bible. There is not one commandment too many or one commandment too few. They are all important!

When a person discovers new truth, shouldn’t he or she wait until all obstacles are removed before embracing it?

“Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you”(John 12:35).

“I made haste, and did not delay to keep Your commandments” (Psalm 119:60).

“Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you” (Matthew 6:33).

No. Once you are clear on a Bible truth, it is never good to wait. Procrastination is a dangerous trap. It seems so harmless to wait, but the Bible teaches that unless a person acts immediately upon light, it quickly turns to darkness. Obstacles to obedience are not removed while we stand and wait; instead, they usually increase in size. Man says to God, “Open up the way, and I’ll go forward. ”But God’s way is just the opposite. He says,“You go forward, and I will open up the way.”

But isn’t complete obedience an impossibility for a human being?

“With God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).

“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Philippians 4:13).

“Thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ” (2 Corinthians 2:14).

“He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5).

“If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land” (Isaiah 1:19).

None of us can obey in our own power, but through Christ we can and must. Satan, in order to make God’s requests appear unreasonable, invented the falsehood that obedience is impossible.

What will happen to a person who willfully continues in disobedience?

“If we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries” (Hebrews 10:26, 27).

“Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going” (John 12:35).

The Bible leaves no room for doubt. The answer is sobering, but true.When a person knowingly rejects light and continues in disobedience, the light eventually goes out, and he is left in total darkness. A person who rejects truth receives a “strong delusion” to believe that falsehood is truth (2 Thessalonians 2:11). When this happens, he is lost.

Isn’t love more important than obedience?

“Jesus answered ... ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word ... He who does not love Me does not keep My words’ ”(John 14:23, 24).

“This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Not at all! The Bible actually teaches that true love to God doesn’t really exist without obedience. Nor can a person be truly obedient without a love and appreciation for God. No child will fully obey his parents unless he loves them, nor will he show love to his parents if he does not obey. True love and obedience cannot be separated.

But doesn’t true freedom in Christ actually release us from obedience?

“If you abide in My word ... you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ... Who ever commits sin is a slave of sin”(John 8:31,32,34).

“God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness” (Romans 6:17,18).

“So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty, for I seek Your precepts”(Psalm 119:44,45).

No. True freedom means freedom “from sin” (Romans 6:18), or disobedience, which is breaking God’s law (1 John 3:4). Therefore, true freedom comes only from obedience. The citizens who obey the law have freedom. The disobedient are caught and lose their freedom. Freedom without obedience is a false freedom—it leads to confusion and anarchy. True Christian freedom means freedom from disobedience. Disobedience always hurts a person and leads one into the cruel slavery of the devil.

When I believe God requires a certain thing, should I obey even though I do not understand why He requires it?

“Please, obey the voice of the LORD. ... So it shall be well with you, and your soul shall live” (Jeremiah 38:20).

“He who trusts in his own heart is a fool”(Proverbs 28:26).

“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man” (Psalm 118:8).

“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:9).

“How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! ‘For who has known the mind of the LORD?’ ” (Romans 11:33, 34).

“I will lead them in paths they have not known” (Isaiah 42:16).

“You will show me the path of life” (Psalm 16:11).

Most assuredly! We must give God credit for being wise enough to require some things of us that we might not understand. Good children obey their parents even when the reasons for their commands are not clear. Simple faith and trust in God will cause us to believe that He knows what is best for us and that He will never lead us down a wrong path. It is folly for us, in our ignorance, to distrust God’s leadership even when we don’t fully understand all His reasons.

Who is really behind all disobedience, and why?

“He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. ... In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:8, 10).

“Satan ... deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).

The devil is responsible. He knows that all disobedience is sin and that sin brings unhappiness, tragedy, alienation from God, and eventual destruction. In his hatred, he tries to lead every person into disobedience. You are involved. You must face the facts and make a decision. Disobey and be lost, or accept Christ and obey and be saved. Your decision regarding obedience is a decision regarding Christ. You cannot separate Him from truth, because He says, “I am ... the truth”(John 14:6).

“Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve”(Joshua 24:15).

What glorious miracle does the Bible promise for God’s children?

“He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

Praise God! He promises that just as He worked a miracle to bring us the new birth, He will also continue to work needed miracles in our lives (as we gladly follow Him) until we are safe in His kingdom.


 






Daciple

Star
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,144
How am I wrong..when scripture is what is informing my theology. Can you really disprove that scripture doesn’t say what it says? You can’t..you can only bring in other verses that don’t actually answer to Hebrews 6:4-8. Or Hebrews 10:38-39...or any of the other verses that I painstakingly put together to show that I think that we can fall away from the faith.
You are not wrong in saying that IF someone does lose their Salvation, that can not get it back, I agree that you at least arent lying to people unlike 99% of others who incorrectly believe in the ability to lose their Salvation, and then say once you lose your Salvation you can get it back. According to Scripture it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose Salvation AND get it back.

You quoted Heb 10:38-39 as tho this somehow speaks about losing Salvation, and again that is the problem when it comes this ideology, you and the rest of the folks who believe in this incorrect doctrine, want to attach Salvation to every verse when its not speaking of Salvation or completely misinterpret the Scriptures they are using. Yes Lisa you have quoted alot of Scriptures and in the past however many years I have consistently given an answer in detail explaining why your interpretation is either incorrect, or you are putting Salvation into the text when Salvation isnt actually being mentioned. Your response is usually you type to much Daciple, blah blah blah...

But here lets look at Heb 10:38-39...

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
.

So the main clause you tend to ignore is the fact that it says WE ARE NOT OF THEM who draw back, in other words we of the Church who are Saved DO NOT draw back unto perdition. We are OF THEM that believe to the saving of the soul. You probably wont read or care about it because it doesnt support your view, but here is a commentary that goes over what I am speaking about and your misunderstanding of the verse, for those who care to know why you are wrong:

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition,.... There is a drawing back which is not unto perdition; persons may be attended with much unbelief, may be very cold and indifferent to Gospel ordinances, may fall into great sins, and may greatly backslide, and yet be recovered, as David, Peter, and others: and there is a drawing back to perdition; when Christ is rejected as the alone Saviour; when he is not held to as the head; when false doctrines and damnable heresies are given into; and when men draw back, and never return, nor are they, nor can they be returned, and their apostasy is total, and final: but true believers do not, and cannot draw back in this sense; because they are held fast in the arms, and with the cords of everlasting love, are chosen of God unto salvation, are given unto Christ, and secured in him; they are redeemed and purchased by him; they are united to him, and built upon him; they are interested in his prayers and preparations, and are his jewels, and his portion; they are regenerated, sanctified, inhabited, and sealed by the Spirit of God, and have the promises and power of God, on their side.

But of them that believe to the saving of the soul; or "of faith, to the salvation of the soul"; not of faith of miracles, nor of an historical faith; but of that faith, which is the faith of God's elect, is the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; by which a soul sees Christ, goes to him, lays holds on him, commits all to him, and expects all from him: this stands opposed to drawing back; for by faith a man lives, walks, and stands; and with this is connected the salvation of the soul, as opposed to perdition; not as though it is a cause of salvation, but as a means of God's appointing to receive the blessings of salvation, and which is entirely consistent with the grace of God; and since salvation and faith are inseparably connected together, so that he that has the one shall have the other, it follows, that true believers can never perish
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/10-39.htm

You of course can say and believe whatever you want, but you are just wrong and the above is the correct understanding of the verse. This is how each of the verses you have chosen to present as proof text continue, you simply do not properly understand it or add Salvation into the context when Salvation isnt being mentioned.

Peter thought he could never do it either..but did in the right circumstances
So you want to compare this to Peter losing his salvation? Really?

I also notice you personally wouldnt answer the direct question, do YOU Lisa believe that you can lose YOUR Salvation?

And though Peter was able to come back from it..I think that was because he understood what he did and was bitterly upset over it
Ok so you are now straight up contradicting yourself. One second you are saying that people who DO fall away CAN NOT come back, then you cite Peter falling away, as tho he lost his Salvation and now are saying he DID come back.

Sorry but either Peter DIDNT lose His Salvation, he did what is called backsliding, due to the circumstances he found himself in, and then Repented and his RELATIONSHIP with the Lord was restored, which by the way if you read further it was JESUS who came to Peter and personally Restored him, OR you must NOW say well people CAN lose their Salvation and THEN after LOSING IT they can GET IT BACK. Obviously if you now say this you contradict yourself concerning Heb 6...

You citing Peter contradicts your ideology and actually proves my point. Peter went to a point of denying Jesus OUTWARDLY because of the circumstances he found himself in, which was fear of being killed, but he didnt LOSE his Salvation because inwardly he still believed in Him. Jesus asked him AFTER he denied Jesus, do you love me Peter? What was Peters response?

John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep

Peter denied Jesus, he lied straight up about even knowing who Jesus was, or ever being around him, and he did this 3 times, however Jesus KNEW Peters heart, Jesus KNEW that Peter loved Him even tho he backslid to a point of straight up denial of Him and lying concerning Him. That is a pretty bad place to find yourself in, where due to your circumstances you outwardly deny Christ. Still Peter DID NOT LOSE HIS SALVATION, he still loved Jesus in his heart, and then Jesus RESTORED their relationship.

The way you act on this site, it seems to me you have no real understanding or knowledge of a real relationship with Jesus is like, I find what you say so disingenuous, you act as tho what I say and other say concerning these things is something you have never experienced. Like you have never been in Peters place, and since the Truth is you have, because you are human, everything you say and then judge others about comes off fake.

I say that because I know for a fact that you have been in bad places in your life, you have wondered about Salvation, you have been hurt and wondered where God is, you have fallen away in your walk and relationship with the Lord. However for some reason you dont acknowledge this reality and act as tho the times when you have fallen doesnt equal losing your Salvation, yet you pin that exact thing on others trying to project upon them that they have or could lose their Salvation.

I love Peter, he is by far my favorite Disciple, why? Because I can identify with him in his humanity, in his ups and downs, because he relates more to what EVERYONES walk is with the Lord. Saying all this I know for sure never once did Peter lose his Salvation, just as I am sure regardless of my own downfalls and uprisings I have never Lost my Salvation, and if you are Saved, then you have never Lost your Salvation...

They had their ears tickled..they went for doctrines of demons..they were deceived.
So you think that people who are truly saved can be deceived to a point of losing their Salvation, at this point in time in the past huh? Yet what does the Bible say specifically about those who are Saved when they are literally under the absolute most stress and deception that will ever exist in all of humanity?

Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, then these False Prophets would be able to deceive the very elect, however those words IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, means that it is NOT POSSIBLE for the Elect, which is a word used for those who are SAVED, to be deceived. The Saved shall not be deceived even during the Tribulation, unto loss of Salvation, but you want to think that Saved people are deceived unto loss of Salvation now? Sorry we are not...

The deceived are those who do NOT have True Faith, they never did, they never were Saved, and most of the time it talks about deception it is talking about Lost people staying deceived unto their damnation...

Furthermore, deception doesnt necessarily equate to damnation, but it seems like that fact doesnt resonate in your mind when reading the Scriptures. Apparently everything is always and only speaking of Salvation when you read the Word, even tho most of the time it is speaking about our lives here on earth...

That’s what God tells us to watch out for...to test ourselves to see that we are in the faith. Why would He need us to do that if we couldn’t lose our salvation..why would it matter if we believed correctly or not? Because doesn’t a little leaven leaven the whole lump of dough? I think it takes a while to fall away..but maybe it doesn’t..one should always be on the alert..don’t ya think?
So you are trying to reference 2 Cor 13:5 when you say we are told to test ourselves to see that we are in the Faith, however as usual you dont even understand that verse, stripping the Context out of it and then are purposefully ignorant of the very next verse that address your claim:

2 Cor 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

So if you properly understood the verse IN CONTEXT we see that Paul is turning their desire to seek a proof of Christ in Him upon themselves. He is saying if you want to see Christ in me, then you better look at yourself first, do you have Christ in you? Then immediately upon that what does Paul say? Jesus Christ is in us and we are NOT reprobates.

This isnt a call to see if you were once saved, then lost it so you better get it back, no it is a response of Paul towards those questioning him. He says if you question me then look at yourself that you are Saved first, because if you are not in the Faith you are a Reprobate, but then he quickly says, Christ is in us, we are not Reprobate. If there is a call for examination it is, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN SAVED. Again you bring a proof text that actually goes more for what we who believe the Truth, which you cant lose Salvation, have to say.

If you find that you are not in the Faith then you need to actually get Saved, its not well you were Saved, so make sure you are still Saved. It is check and see if you are in it because if you are not you need to get Saved...

And you talk a good talk daciple..but aren’t you the one that went headlong back into your sinful lifestyle? If you want to talk about never..maybe you should worry about going there again?
I dont know what you are even trying to imply here Lisa? I mean I understand your MO, everytime we speak about almost anything you become the Devil and try and bring up my past Failures, but can I remind you Devil, that it is under the Blood. My Relationship has been restored by the Blood of Christ and all my Sins have been covered. You as the mouthpiece of the Devil yet again cant stop the fact that I am fully Forgiven and still Justified not because of my failures or what I have done, but because of the Grace and Mercy of Jesus Christ.

Regardless, what it does show and prove is that I cant lose my Salvation. I unlike you, am willing to be honest about my faults and failures, and even tho I did fall greatly from Christ, I am here today, preaching the Gospel, praising His name and trying to tell everybody about the Grace and Mercy that is found in my Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

If I were to believe your lies then I would think I lost my Salvation and cant get it back and would have just figured to stay in Sin until I died, making a waste of my life, you know like what the Devil wants for you and me. However God proved that regardless of what I face, and the mistakes I make, and how far it seems I would go from Him, He is always there to Rescue and Restore me by His Great Love, Mercy and Grace.

The God you speak of is rather weak, who gives up on His own Children that He paid the ultimate price for, and allows them to have the greatest thing a person could ever have, and then takes it from them like an Indian Giver. No thanks I will take the Truth and agree with God that there is nothing that can separate me from His Love. Which of course you think there is something that can separate you from Him, what a terrible mindset to have...

We know the devil is like a roaring lion..looking for someone to devour...why do you think we have those kinds of warnings anyway?
Again you are putting Salvation into the verse when that isnt what it is speaking about for Saved people. The Devil DOES want to devour you like a roaring lion, for a Saved person, you know what that looks like? It looks like believing that you have Lost your Salvation, that God isnt going to keep His promise to go with you to the end, that God actually abandoned you when you were in a struggle with your Faith or fell into Temptation and then giving up and not attempting or returning to God. It is to live as a Saved person that doesnt minister to others, by building them up and loving others. To live as a Saved person that isnt active in their Faith and lets it all waste away, whether that is thru fear, failure, sin, worry or whatever manner and tricks the Devil has out here to get us who are Saved to shut up about Jesus.

Whether you realize it or not, your Doctrine is exactly what the Devil wants Saved people to believe, because then when they do face a real struggle, they do fall into a real temptation, and they are in a season where they are not bearing Fruits, then they can be convinced that they Lost their Salvation and since we know it can not be given back, they either sit down in their Faith or fall fully into Sin and shipwreck their Faith and become useless to the work towards the Kingdom of God...

Enjoy telling struggling Christians that they have Lost their Salvation and convincing them they are damned forever, just like the Devil wants them to think, I however will continue to offer them hope, to turn from their own downfalls and struggles and fix their eyes on Jesus who Saved them unto Eternal Life. I will tell them they havent Lost their Salvation, they just need to run back to the arms of God and have their Relationship fully Restored. I will do the opposite of what the Devil wants, like trying to continually bring up their past failures that Jesus has already forgiven them for, I will tell them that its all forgiven and under the Blood, and to lift their eyes up, acknowledge God and let Him change their path...
 






floss

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Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,572
I also notice you personally wouldnt answer the direct question, do YOU Lisa believe that you can lose YOUR Salvation?
I've been asking Lisa and Phipps this same question several time already but it was always ignored. Seem like ONLY the bad Christians out there can lose salvation but never ever themself. Such "Holier than Thou" mentality.
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
11,238
Your response is usually you type to much Daciple, blah blah blah...
Ya, you do type too much!
But here lets look at Heb 10:38-39...
Hebrews‬ ‭10:38-39‬ ‭
BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
‭‭
You are missing the point which is that we shall live by faith but we can shrink back and if you do you shrink back to destruction. I believe you incorrectly interpret that verse.


I also notice you personally wouldnt answer the direct question, do YOU Lisa believe that you can lose YOUR Salvation?
I hope I don’t but...
Hebrews‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.​
‭‭
Sorry but either Peter DIDNT lose His Salvation, he did what is called backsliding, due to the circumstances he found himself in, and then Repented and his RELATIONSHIP with the Lord was restored, which by the way if you read further it was JESUS who came to Peter and personally Restored him, OR you must NOW say well people CAN lose their Salvation and THEN after LOSING IT they can GET IT BACK. Obviously if you now say this you contradict yourself concerning Heb 6...
Ya, I think Peter totally thought he blew it and it was Jesus that showed he hadn’t. What I was pointing out is that Peter knows that Christians can fall away from the faith.

Jesus knows that Christians will fall away from the faith.
Matthew‬ ‭24:10‬ ‭
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.


‭‭The Spirit knows Christians will fall away from the faith..
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

It’s a real thing. Then Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us what happens when Christians do..
Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

I’m not making anything up.

I say that because I know for a fact that you have been in bad places in your life, you have wondered about Salvation, you have been hurt and wondered where God is, you have fallen away in your walk and relationship with the Lord. However for some reason you dont acknowledge this reality and act as tho the times when you have fallen doesnt equal losing your Salvation, yet you pin that exact thing on others trying to project upon them that they have or could lose their Salvation.
I have been in bad places in my life but when have I been hurt and wondered where God was? What are you talking about?

When did I say I fell away from my walk and relationship with the Lord? What are you talking about here?


I dont know what you are even trying to imply here Lisa?
I brought it up because you act like it could never happen to you..


The Devil DOES want to devour you like a roaring lion, for a Saved person, you know what that looks like?
It looks like osas..you can never lose your salvation even though scripture says otherwise.
 






Last edited:

Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
11,238
I've been asking Lisa and Phipps this same question several time already but it was always ignored. Seem like ONLY the bad Christians out there can lose salvation but never ever themself. Such "Holier than Thou" mentality.
I hope I don’t but...
Hebrews‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.​
 






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