Does God Place Conditions on His Gift of Salvation?

TokiEl

Star
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
4,710
There is no secret to salvation.

It is repenting of past sins... and start to live a sinless life.

This is not that difficult with the help of Jesus.
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
1,712
If this is what you believe will save you, you aren't going to make it.

I take it, you and Tokio are update-to-date with all your sins repented, am I correct? You might be able to fool me but you are not fooling God.
I believe as the Bible teaches that Salvation is a free gift from from God. I also believe as I posted in my op that Jesus gave us conditions to be saved and I posted those conditions. No on who disobeys God and breaks His commandments is going to be saved. The Bible tells us in Revelation 21:27, "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." Sin defiles and no sinner and their sins will enter heaven. The Bible is clear no one who wilfully practices sin will ever enter into His kingdom. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." Anyone who does these things whether they believe Christ or not will not make it.

So I believe I will make it by the Grace of God if I rely on Him completely everyday. I pray that He gives me the strength to endure to the end and when I fall to confess earnestly everyday and to stop doing what’s wrong and put forth effort again to do what is right. I know that I have a role to play in my free gift of salvation by allowing God to do work in my heart everyday.

Why would you think I'm trying to fool God? If I confess all my sins, how is that fooling God? We have to confess all the time. We don't don't stop stumbling overnight after we are born again. Its a process where as we grow in Christ (sanctification), we stumble less and less. So we must always confess. To say otherwise isn't biblical.

What this has to do with repentance of sins to obtain salvation? Sins will lead to death. People died every day because of sins...what's the problem here?
You do know that turning from sin is part of repentance don't you? It leads to change. Its time you study what repentance is biblically. You clearly don't understand what it is.

How can you ask such questions? Are you for real now?

Again, what this has got to do with repentance of sins to obtain salvation?
Repentance is turning away from sin and that leads to us getting new hearts but you missed that point didn't you?

I'm getting confuse...salvation?
You are clearly confused. First you really need to understand repentance, confession and how that leads to our salvation if we continue on that road.

again, you do not have the correct understand of repentance.
Its sad when the one who is wrong can't see it. God promised us in 2 Peter 3:9 that whenever we repent, He will forgive us because He is not willing that any of us should perish. Can you not see how repentance and salvation are interlinked?

okay...God want you to get back to where you left off... what's the problem here?
Why must I spoon feed you everything. Jesus was calling the Church back to its first-love experience to repentance and reformation or He will remove their lampstand or candlestick from its place. The lampstand represents Jesus, the light of the world.

Once again you failed at providing anything remotely to "you shall lose your salvation if all your sins are not repented"
A word of advice. When anyone posts scripture here or anywhere else, you should either read the whole chapter or a few verses before or after to get the context of the verses. You clearly did not do that with the scripture I posted and that's why you don't understand any of it. That is why you are wrong about osas too. You are not studying the Bible as you should (apart from believing what was preached to you). The Bible never says everything on a subject in one place. You have to know just about everything it says on a particular subject to understand it completely. We have Google and concordances to help us check all verses on particular subjects we are studying or discussing. Why don't you google all the verses on what the Bible says about repentance? I did even though I know I'm telling you the truth. You will see that you are wrong about repentance. But first find out what it is because you do not know.

This is my last response to you on this subject otherwise we will be going round in circles. Whether you accept this truth or not, nowhere in the Bible is our eternal security tied to a momentary faith experience of the past. Salvation is a process. We must continue in the faith to the very end to be saved. Do you remember the "if we hold fast.." verses I posted to you once? That you ignored? I bet you didn't bother reading them in context either. Salvation is conditional on our continuing to the end. If one should choose not to continue and never repent and comeback (and they can as the Bible clearly says), they will not make it. This is the truth of God's Word.
 






Last edited:

Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
12,571
1. Is there a different between walking away and falling away?
2. Why did JESUS said those who walked away was never a believer?
3. Your belief contradicted what Jesus said about those who walked away. It must be your misconception or misinterpretation of the scriptures regarding falling away and partaker of the Holy Spirit.

Why is it so difficult to understand those who fall away/ walk away NEVER believe? That's exactly what Jesus said but you believe otherwise. They don't believe, they leave. It's that simple.
You’re confusing two different things. Walking away having never believed and falling away from the faith.
I think some people don’t really believe and not really believing in Jesus they don’t get it and leave.

However there are verses that say actual believers will fall away from the faith. The Spirit explicitly says that in the later days some will fall away from the faith. When I asked you what faith you said the Christian faith. So to fall away from the Christian faith one must be a Christian.

Hebrews 6:4-6 goes even further and talks about those who partake of the Holy Spirit. The only people that can partake of the Holy Spirit are born again believers. So..it agrees with 1 Timothy where people in the faith fall away and it goes on to say that if you fall away from the faith you can’t re-crucify Christ..meaning that you lose your salvation and can’t come back.

Which is why there are so many warnings about deception..why warn us about being deceived and wolves if we can’t lose salvation? There are the warnings because we can lose it..that’s why we must be on the alert. To me these verses are plain as day. They clearly say that people will fall away from the faith.
 






floss

Star
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,587
You’re confusing two different things. Walking away having never believed and falling away from the faith.
I think some people don’t really believe and not really believing in Jesus they don’t get it and leave.

However there are verses that say actual believers will fall away from the faith. The Spirit explicitly says that in the later days some will fall away from the faith. When I asked you what faith you said the Christian faith. So to fall away from the Christian faith one must be a Christian.

Hebrews 6:4-6 goes even further and talks about those who partake of the Holy Spirit. The only people that can partake of the Holy Spirit are born again believers. So..it agrees with 1 Timothy where people in the faith fall away and it goes on to say that if you fall away from the faith you can’t re-crucify Christ..meaning that you lose your salvation and can’t come back.

Which is why there are so many warnings about deception..why warn us about being deceived and wolves if we can’t lose salvation? There are the warnings because we can lose it..that’s why we must be on the alert. To me these verses are plain as day. They clearly say that people will fall away from the faith.
You're saying the Disciples of Christ that walked away were never a Christian? If you fall away from the faith, aren't you walking away from Jesus, leaving him? I think you gave the word Christian too much credit that you assumed all Christian are saved. It's a loosely used term on the deciding factor of salvation. Even the 11 Disciples believed Judas was a true saved believer (Christian) but turn out he's not. Not everyone that leave the Church or the Christian Faith were once saved, that's a huge misconception.

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭KJVA‬‬
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
12,571
You're saying the Disciples of Christ that walked away were never a Christian? If you fall away from the faith, aren't you walking away from Jesus, leaving him? I think you gave the word Christian too much credit that you assumed all Christian are saved. It's a loosely used term on the deciding factor of salvation. Even the 11 Disciples believed Judas was a true saved believer (Christian) but turn out he's not. Not everyone that leave the Church or the Christian Faith were once saved, that's a huge misconception.

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭KJVA‬‬
Ok...BUT and I think this is where you have some sort of disconnect..1Timothy says ...the Spirit explicitly says that in the last days some will fall away from the faith. don’t think that’s assuming they are saved, I think that is saying they are saved. And so believe Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms its believers even if we want to say they weren’t really Christians. And I have already shown you other verses that back that up too.
 






floss

Star
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,587
Ok...BUT and I think this is where you have some sort of disconnect..1Timothy says ...the Spirit explicitly says that in the last days some will fall away from the faith. don’t think that’s assuming they are saved, I think that is saying they are saved. And so believe Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms its believers even if we want to say they weren’t really Christians. And I have already shown you other verses that back that up too.
you should create a new thread of this end time apostasy with what you think will likely happen and what it'll look like in the 21st century.
 






Last edited:

floss

Star
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,587
Ok...BUT and I think this is where you have some sort of disconnect..1Timothy says ...the Spirit explicitly says that in the last days some will fall away from the faith. don’t think that’s assuming they are saved, I think that is saying they are saved. And so believe Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms its believers even if we want to say they weren’t really Christians. And I have already shown you other verses that back that up too.
Great explanation of Hebrew 6
 






Last edited:

floss

Star
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,587
Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

Answer:
First, the term Christian must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer or walked down an aisle or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what makes a Christian. A Christian is a person who has fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior and therefore possesses the Holy Spirit (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8–9).

So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? It’s a crucially important question. Perhaps the best way to answer it is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation and to study what losing salvation would entail:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18–19). The word redeemed refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. We were purchased at the cost of Christ’s death. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase of the individual for whom He paid with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To justify is to declare righteous. All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared. Those absolved of guilt would have to be tried again and found guilty. God would have to reverse the sentence handed down from the divine bench.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”?

A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. “You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14). At the moment of faith, the new Christian is marked and sealed with the Spirit, who was promised to act as a deposit to guarantee the heavenly inheritance. The end result is that God’s glory is praised. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory.

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “Those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). According to Romans 5:1, justification is ours at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification comes with justification. All those whom God justifies are promised to be glorified. This promise will be fulfilled when Christians receive their perfect resurrection bodies in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

Two common objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation concern these experiential issues: 1) What about Christians who live in a sinful, unrepentant lifestyle? 2) What about Christians who reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these objections is the assumption that everyone who calls himself a “Christian” has actually been born again. The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a state of continual, unrepentant sin (1 John 3:6). The Bible also says that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he was never truly a Christian (1 John 2:19). He may have been religious, he may have put on a good show, but he was never born again by the power of God. “By their fruit you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:16). The redeemed of God belong “to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God” (Romans 7:4).

Nothing can separate a child of God from the Father’s love (Romans 8:38–39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28–29). God guarantees eternal life and maintains the salvation He has given us. The Good Shepherd searches for the lost sheep, and, “when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home” (Luke 15:5–6). The lamb is found, and the Shepherd gladly bears the burden; our Lord takes full responsibility for bringing the lost one safely home.

Jude 24–25 further emphasizes the goodness and faithfulness of our Savior: “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
 






TokiEl

Star
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
4,710
Matthew 24 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
 






floss

Star
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,587
Matthew 24 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matt24 is about the Great Tribulation. If you make it through, your flesh will be saved, you won't taste physical death.
 






Last edited:

TokiEl

Star
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
4,710
Matt24 is about the Great Tribulation. If you make it through, your flesh will be saved, you won't taste physical death.
Absolutely not.

It's about you enduring the correct christian walk in the face of tribulations when the whole world around you is corrupt to the core and wants you dead.
 






floss

Star
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,587
You don’t really follow Steven Anderson do you?
I don't "follow" anybody. I listen to a lot of different preachers. What does this have to do with the content of the video? Don't be like the muslims mocking David Wood with the "cross dressing" video. If you don't want to talk about Pastor Anderson's explanation regarding Heb6, then we can dismiss it here.
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
12,571
I don't "follow" anybody. I listen to a lot of different preachers.
That’s good.

Don't be like the muslims mocking David Wood with the "cross dressing" video.
I didn’t watch that video..but I’m not sure other than views, why he needed to cross dress himself...but then maybe I should watch the video to find out..

If you don't want to talk about Pastor Anderson's explanation regarding Heb6, then we can dismiss it here.
I might watch it..but I’m not overly fond of Mr. Anderson.
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
12,571
you should create a new thread of this end time apostasy with what you think will likely happen and what it'll look like in the 21st century.
I already think that its somewhat happening right now..with people and their itchy ears. Looking for other gospels they’d like to believe better than the gospel.

But then we are also told that in the end we will betray one another..right after Jesus tells us many will fall away. So, I also think that is something to come. Christians betraying one another...what could cause that I wonder? Could people be mad that they didn’t go in a pre-trib rapture and betray the ones that knew all along we’d still be here? I’ve been to pre trib sites where they are condescending to the Christians that say we will be here for the trib...mocking even that any Christian would think that. My brother was told that he could leave his church if he didn’t change to a pre-trib outlook. I think that could have something to do with it. Then I also think of brother betraying brother, daughters their mothers and the like..there will come a persecution of Christians where maybe its so bad that you’d turn them in to save yourself? Perhaps that’s what will also happen between Christians. Where you’d save yourself and give up your brother?
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
1,712
Let us state the unscriptural teaching of osas like this:

I'm saved by Grace, oh happy condition!
I can transgress every day and still claim remission.
Nothing in the law has any claim on me,
For being "under grace", I'm entirely free.
I can have other gods as often as I please,
And have a good conscience-entirely at ease.
Images of all kinds I can worship and adore,
Since I'm "free from the law" -not bound any more.
I can remain "under grace" until the day I die,
Even though God's name I profane and deny.
"Remember the Sabbath day" was not for me or you;
That was "under the law" and only for the Jew.
My Father and Mother I need not respect;
That's for those who God's grace reject.
I can kill, despise, and everybody hate,
And still have a welcome at the pearly gate.
And concerning adultery heard from Sinai's mount,
I can break every word and not render an account.
And since it is "by grace" before the Lord I kneel,
I am free to rob, plunder, and steal.
And if about my neighbour I should daily lie,
I'll not even face that in the great by-and-by.
I can covet my neighbour's goods- even his wife-
And stay "saved by grace" everyday of my life.
 






Last edited:

elsbet

Star
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
4,318
I don't serve a mail order God.

If we could obey the Law without Him, His death was pointless.
 






floss

Star
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,587
I already think that its somewhat happening right now..with people and their itchy ears. Looking for other gospels they’d like to believe better than the gospel.

But then we are also told that in the end we will betray one another..right after Jesus tells us many will fall away. So, I also think that is something to come. Christians betraying one another...what could cause that I wonder? Could people be mad that they didn’t go in a pre-trib rapture and betray the ones that knew all along we’d still be here? I’ve been to pre trib sites where they are condescending to the Christians that say we will be here for the trib...mocking even that any Christian would think that. My brother was told that he could leave his church if he didn’t change to a pre-trib outlook. I think that could have something to do with it. Then I also think of brother betraying brother, daughters their mothers and the like..there will come a persecution of Christians where maybe its so bad that you’d turn them in to save yourself? Perhaps that’s what will also happen between Christians. Where you’d save yourself and give up your brother?
I'm with you about pre-trib issues with the church. I'm post-trib pre-wrath myself however I'm still open to other rapture doctrines as God doesn't always reveal everything at once and I don't want to close the door on His truth.

One other issue I've found with your belief in the apostasy doctrine. You said, after we're saved, we still have the free will to stop believing and lose our salvation.And based on Heb6, it's impossible to renew that person back to repentance. I'm assuming you believe once someone fell away/lost their salvation, they cannot get it back. This is an issue here because that mean God also took that fallen one's FREE WILL away from making a choice to get save again. Unless you believe free will only exist until one have fallen away. Does God take away someone's salvation AND free will?
 






Last edited:
Top