Deception in the Church

Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
18,366
I’m not quite sure what you mean here?



Do you make a distinction between loss of salvation and loss of fellowship, rewards and blessings?
You never answered my questions from earlier about who it is that receives the Holy Spirit and who it is that Paul is talking about that loses their faith in 1 Timothy 4:1.

Don’t you lose it all when you fall away, sure seems that way in Hebrews 6:6 saying that its impossible to renew them again to repentance, and verse 8 where they are burned.

If you fall away, can you really still be in fellowship? Aren’t you then back in the darkness and darkness has nothing to do with the light and the light with the darkness? What reward or blessings shall you get but verse 8, where you are burned.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,849
You never answered my questions from earlier about who it is that receives the Holy Spirit and who it is that Paul is talking about that loses their faith in 1 Timothy 4:1.

Don’t you lose it all when you fall away, sure seems that way in Hebrews 6:6 saying that its impossible to renew them again to repentance, and verse 8 where they are burned.

If you fall away, can you really still be in fellowship? Aren’t you then back in the darkness and darkness has nothing to do with the light and the light with the darkness? What reward or blessings shall you get but verse 8, where you are burned.
Much I would love to chew it over with you tonight Lisa, it’s my wedding anniversary and it might not go down well if I spend too much time messaging another woman ;-)
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
18,366
That has nothing to do with Hebrews. And yes many are falling away from the faith. If you study the Parables of Jesus in Matthew Chapter 13, Christ gives the whole pre history of the Church age till the judgment. if you notice, the parables tell about the false church members in the visible church that make up the Church, The Tares, The leaven, The mustard seed that grows wild, The birds of the air. All of these were Christ warnings that the visible church would be full of deceitful members that act like but are not Christians (born again believers) Many shall come to me saying Lord, Lord, and I will say to them away from me...I NEVER KNEW YOU!!!
Has nothing to do with Hebrews? Both verses talk about the falling away, how can they not be linked together? One talking about falling away from the faith...obviously talking about Christians and the other talking about the partakers of the Holy Spirit falling away..also about Christians, because its only Christians who get the helper, the Holy Spirit.

No, I think people would like to think that the Bible doesn’t talk about falling away for actual Christians, just like a lady I knew once said, that would be scary, but didn’t believe me. Why would God give us Christians something He never gave to His chosen people? They could and did go there own way, we aren’t better than them.
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
18,366
Lol - I love how you think I’m dodging the question. It really is my anniversary so I will get back to you tomorrow!
You deflected my comment about your John Wayne post into how difficult Hebrews is to interpret..then I asked you a direct question that you’ve dodged for 3 posts and now you have a dinner to go to, gee, wonder how I could think you’re dodging? Doubt you’ll get back to it and just move on..that seems to be how you are.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,849
You deflected my comment about your John Wayne post into how difficult Hebrews is to interpret..then I asked you a direct question that you’ve dodged for 3 posts and now you have a dinner to go to, gee, wonder how I could think you’re dodging? Doubt you’ll get back to it and just move on..that seems to be how you are.
None taken Lisa!

I simply haven’t got the time to reply and research whilst watching a film with my wife. It is actually a conversation I WANT to have with you as I think you are weighed down with a legalistic interpretation of certain passages that must sap your joy.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,849
@Lisa

Film finished...

An interesting perspective:-

What are doctrines of demons in 1 Timothy 4:1?

Question: "What are doctrines of demons in 1 Timothy 4:1?"

Answer: In many places, Scripture warns us against false doctrine: “The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” (1 Timothy 4:1, NAS). The KJV words it as “seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons.” A doctrine is a teaching or a set of principles. The “doctrines of demons,” then, are things that demons teach.

So, there can be good and bad doctrines. The word doctrine can refer to the biblical teachings of a church or a pastor. Or, in the case of 1 Timothy 4:1, the ungodly teachings of Satan. Those who follow the doctrines of demons “will abandon the faith.” That is, heeding the doctrine of demons is a serious matter because it involves a departure from the truth of Christ’s gospel.

How are the doctrines of demons promulgated? They are delivered through human instructors: “Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron” (1 Timothy 4:2). These false teachers are hypocritical; that is, their lives do not evidence the holiness they seemingly espouse. They are liars; that is, they deal in falsehood and knowingly lead others into apostasy. And they are beyond the reach of conscience; that is, they have found a way, in their own minds, to justify their lies. These false teachers may be personable, charming, and persuasive, but they do not receive their message from the Holy Spirit; rather, they spout the suggestions of evil spirits, whose work it is to lead people astray.

What exactly are the doctrines of demons? The immediate context gives an idea of the teachings to look out for: “They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer” (1 Timothy 4:2–5). According to this passage, we should not follow any person or group that forbids marriage or that places restrictions on certain foods. Any person or group that says holiness comes through a select diet or complete sexual abstinence is lying.

In the Garden of Eden, Eve encountered the doctrines of demons as the serpent spoke to her: “He said to the woman, ‘Did God really say, “You must not eat from any tree in the garden”?’” At the beginning of the conversation, Satan questioned the teaching of God, and, as they continued to talk, he substituted his own teaching for God’s. Satan has continued to use deception, doubt, and subtlety to lead people astray. Satan is the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44), and the doctrines taught by his demons through the agency of willing human accomplices continue to separate people from God and His blessing.

Satan knows how to manipulate us, and that is why the doctrines of demons are so effective. We can identify the doctrines of demons by immersing ourselves in the truth. We must read and study our Bibles. When we know what God says on any given subject, then any deviation from that teaching will send up a red flag. When we are in tune with God’s Word, aberrations from that keynote will ring hollow and off-key.

https://www.gotquestions.org/doctrines-of-demons.html
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
18,366
@Lisa

Film finished...

An interesting perspective:-

What are doctrines of demons in 1 Timothy 4:1?

Question: "What are doctrines of demons in 1 Timothy 4:1?"

Answer: In many places, Scripture warns us against false doctrine: “The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” (1 Timothy 4:1, NAS). The KJV words it as “seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons.” A doctrine is a teaching or a set of principles. The “doctrines of demons,” then, are things that demons teach.

So, there can be good and bad doctrines. The word doctrine can refer to the biblical teachings of a church or a pastor. Or, in the case of 1 Timothy 4:1, the ungodly teachings of Satan. Those who follow the doctrines of demons “will abandon the faith.” That is, heeding the doctrine of demons is a serious matter because it involves a departure from the truth of Christ’s gospel.

How are the doctrines of demons promulgated? They are delivered through human instructors: “Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron” (1 Timothy 4:2). These false teachers are hypocritical; that is, their lives do not evidence the holiness they seemingly espouse. They are liars; that is, they deal in falsehood and knowingly lead others into apostasy. And they are beyond the reach of conscience; that is, they have found a way, in their own minds, to justify their lies. These false teachers may be personable, charming, and persuasive, but they do not receive their message from the Holy Spirit; rather, they spout the suggestions of evil spirits, whose work it is to lead people astray.

What exactly are the doctrines of demons? The immediate context gives an idea of the teachings to look out for: “They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer” (1 Timothy 4:2–5). According to this passage, we should not follow any person or group that forbids marriage or that places restrictions on certain foods. Any person or group that says holiness comes through a select diet or complete sexual abstinence is lying.

In the Garden of Eden, Eve encountered the doctrines of demons as the serpent spoke to her: “He said to the woman, ‘Did God really say, “You must not eat from any tree in the garden”?’” At the beginning of the conversation, Satan questioned the teaching of God, and, as they continued to talk, he substituted his own teaching for God’s. Satan has continued to use deception, doubt, and subtlety to lead people astray. Satan is the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44), and the doctrines taught by his demons through the agency of willing human accomplices continue to separate people from God and His blessing.

Satan knows how to manipulate us, and that is why the doctrines of demons are so effective. We can identify the doctrines of demons by immersing ourselves in the truth. We must read and study our Bibles. When we know what God says on any given subject, then any deviation from that teaching will send up a red flag. When we are in tune with God’s Word, aberrations from that keynote will ring hollow and off-key.

https://www.gotquestions.org/doctrines-of-demons.html
If you don’t know, just say it....
What faith is Paul talking about in 1Timothy 4:1?
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,849
Wow! That was quick...what your wife called it a night since it wasn’t much of an anniversary celebration after all?
Lisa, I’m sure you mean well but when you incorrectly assume a brother in the Lord is not telling the truth it is poor form.

I messaged what I could whilst watching my movie, then felt a little friction and decided it would be wise to wrap up messaging till later. Once it had finished, I replied.
 






Joined
Jun 1, 2018
Messages
1,180
Has nothing to do with Hebrews? Both verses talk about the falling away, how can they not be linked together? One talking about falling away from the faith...obviously talking about Christians and the other talking about the partakers of the Holy Spirit falling away..also about Christians, because its only Christians who get the helper, the Holy Spirit.

No, I think people would like to think that the Bible doesn’t talk about falling away for actual Christians, just like a lady I knew once said, that would be scary, but didn’t believe me. Why would God give us Christians something He never gave to His chosen people? They could and did go there own way, we aren’t better than them.
I gave you the Truth, with your doctrine, The theme is, I hope you can make it. You are putting salvation in your own deeds and hands.
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
18,366
Lisa, I’m sure you mean well but when you incorrectly assume a brother in the Lord is not telling the truth it is poor form.

I messaged what I could whilst watching my movie, then felt a little friction and decided it would be wise to wrap up messaging till later. Once it had finished, I replied.
I don’t even know why you continue to post since it’s your anniversary...did you wife indeed give up on you, since you must have been replying all through the movie? If it doesn’t sound true Red, then its not true...
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
18,366
I gave you the Truth, with your doctrine, The theme is, I hope you can make it. You are putting salvation in your own deeds and hands.
Didn’t God when He says..for faith anyway, we are saved by grace through faith.
2 Corinthians 13:5-6‬
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.”​
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
18,366
God tells us about deception so that we don’t fall prey to it and fall away from the faith. If its not true, why the warning about falling away in the first place? If its not something to be concerned about, why tell us about it? But, you see, it is something to be concerned about which is why we are told about it.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,849
I don’t even know why you continue to post since it’s your anniversary...did you wife indeed give up on you, since you must have been replying all through the movie? If it doesn’t sound true Red, then its not true...
I kept replying to you Lisa because I dislike being impolite, but felt unable to give proper attention and concentration to all your questions.

Reference “departing from the faith” a recent incident serves to illustrate the spiritual state of some of those who name themselves as Christians at this point in history.

 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
18,366
I kept replying to you Lisa because I dislike being impolite, but felt unable to give proper attention and concentration to all your questions.

Reference “departing from the faith” a recent incident serves to illustrate the spiritual state of some of those who name themselves as Christians at this point in history.

Yet you felt the need to tell me it was your anniversary...and you keep posting.

Are you going to keep blowing off my questions?
1.) Who are the people of faith Paul is telling Timothy about in 1Timothy 4:1
2.) Who are the people who can receive the Holy Spirit?
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,849
Yet you felt the need to tell me it was your anniversary...and you keep posting.

Are you going to keep blowing off my questions?
1.) Who are the people of faith Paul is telling Timothy about in 1Timothy 4:1
2.) Who are the people who can receive the Holy Spirit?
Perhaps this quote might help illustrate my approach. Some people prefer to “fire from the hip and take no prisoners”, I prefer to take on a question and reply when I feel I have given it proper consideration.

I like this quote from “A Pilgrims Regress” that helps illustrate how I have come to think...

[John] “But I must think it is one or the other.'​
[Reason]: 'By my father's soul, you must not - until you have some evidence. Can you not remain in doubt?'​
[John]: 'I don't know that I have ever tried.'​
[Reason]: 'You must learn to, if you are to come far with me. It is not hard to do it. In Eschropolis, indeed, it is impossible, for the people who live there have to give an opinion once a week or once a day, or else Mr. Mammon would soon cut off their food. But out here in the country you can walk all day and all the next day with an unanswered question in your head: you need never speak until you have made up your mind.​
C.S. Lewis, The Pilgrim's Regress
Put another way, I would like to give consideration to your question before providing an ill-informed response. I am not sure what you meant by point #2 btw so perhaps you could link the verse you were referring to?
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
18,366
Perhaps this quote might help illustrate my approach. Some people prefer to “fire from the hip and take no prisoners”, I prefer to take on a question and reply when I feel I have given it proper consideration.

I like this quote from “A Pilgrims Regress” that helps illustrate how I have come to think...

[John] “But I must think it is one or the other.'​


[Reason]: 'By my father's soul, you must not - until you have some evidence. Can you not remain in doubt?'​


[John]: 'I don't know that I have ever tried.'​


[Reason]: 'You must learn to, if you are to come far with me. It is not hard to do it. In Eschropolis, indeed, it is impossible, for the people who live there have to give an opinion once a week or once a day, or else Mr. Mammon would soon cut off their food. But out here in the country you can walk all day and all the next day with an unanswered question in your head: you need never speak until you have made up your mind.​


C.S. Lewis, The Pilgrim's Regress

Put another way, I would like to give consideration to your question before providing an ill-informed response. I am not sure what you meant by point #2 btw so perhaps you could link the verse you were referring to?
You either don’t know or don’t want to answer either way by not answering the questions honestly my estimation of you being a brother in Christ continues on a downward trajectory. A brother in Christ wouldn’t continue to stall so much on two questions, easy questions to answer btw.

1.) It doesn’t need a verse for an answer..who is it that can receive the Holy Spirit?

2.) Who are the people of faith that Paul talks about in 1Timothy 4:1?
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,849
@Lisa

Ref question:
Who are the people of faith that Paul talks about in 1Timothy 4:1?

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

“Some shall depart from the faith - The Greek word here - ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai - is that from which we have derived the word "apostatize," and would be properly so rendered here. The meaning is, that they would "apostatize" from the belief of the truths of the gospel. It does not mean that, as individuals, they would have been true Christians; but that there would be a departure from the great doctrines which constitute the Christian faith. The ways in which they would do this are immediately specified, showing what the apostle meant here by departing from the faith. They would give heed to seducing spirits, to the doctrines of devils, etc. The use of the word "some," here τινες tines - does not imply that the number would be small. The meaning is, that "certain persons" would thus depart, or that "there would be" an apostasy of the kind here mentioned, in the last days. From the parallel passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it would seem that this was to be an extensive apostasy.”
 






Top