Deception in the Church

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I am a born again believer. The righteous can be deceived and there is a lot of deception out there. We need to be in the alert because we can fall away from the faith.
I’m not hindering anything..I am letting people know that they should be aware of certain things that are and have been creeping into the church...that’s a good thing.
Lisa, it is not possible to be born again and teach losing your salvation....I know, I have been there. Amazing Grace!
 






DevaWolf

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Lisa, it is not possible to be born again and teach losing your salvation....I know, I have been there. Amazing Grace!
All these different opinions are quite confusing for an outsider. I still can't really figure out what Christianity is in general because they constantly oppose each other's ideas like in this post.
 






Dalit

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All these different opinions are quite confusing for an outsider. I still can't really figure out what Christianity is in general because they constantly oppose each other's ideas like in this post.
It is confusing, even as a Christian, because I've exposed myself to so much different teaching and viewpoints on the subject. I've been to almost every denomination and non-denomination and even a Christian/New Age hybrid (don't recommend that). I think the best way to learn is reading the Bible. Some say to start with John or Romans. In a way, exposure to a lot of different viewpoints is confusing yet it also has helped me see where I agree and disagree and how people practice their faith differently.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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All these different opinions are quite confusing for an outsider. I still can't really figure out what Christianity is in general because they constantly oppose each other's ideas like in this post.
You might have noticed in politics that the far right and the far left have little common ground. Both extremes take people further away from common sense political reality.

I used to do Judo and one of the core principles was to watch your opponent and exploit their lack of balance to put them on the floor.

In the same way, both extreme legalism and hyper-grace represent a lack of balance.

Sometimes you have to re-state the basics to get back to the actual truth of the message:-

 






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All these different opinions are quite confusing for an outsider. I still can't really figure out what Christianity is in general because they constantly oppose each other's ideas like in this post.
Study the Scriptures starting with the book of John...ask the Lord to show you the Truth...The Scriptures should draw you to Christ. Then study Romans. Godly men like Red and some others on here can give you support, But only God will give the increase. There are two foundations that a man must believe and stand on; That our salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ (not by works) The works that a born again believer does is foreordained by God through the holy Spirit (Eph. 2:8-10). And that Christ is God of the OT incarnate (1 Cor. 10:1-5). I will also give you Scriptures to you questions, but only God will open them up to you. You must be born again. Always in God's Mercy and Grace which is eternal....Douglas Summers
 






Lisa

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Lisa, it is not possible to be born again and teach losing your salvation....I know, I have been there. Amazing Grace!
Sure it is...especially when you read the Bible!
Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.​
 






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Sure it is...especially when you read the Bible!
Hebrews 6:4-8​

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.​
You see, You did not understand the context of the Scripture. This is written to the Hebrew, (Jews) who had excepted Christ but were sacrificing blood sacrifices for their sins. This amounted to hanging Christ on the cross of shame again every time they sinned. Before that verse he tells them that while they should be able to teach, he has to go back and preach the gospel again. The whole of Hebrews is that Christ is the eternal sacrifice in the order of Melchizedek and no other sacrifice is needed..
 






Red Sky at Morning

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You see, You did not understand the context of the Scripture. This is written to the Hebrew, (Jews) who had excepted Christ but were sacrificing blood sacrifices for their sins. This amounted to hanging Christ on the cross of shame again every time they sinned. Before that verse he tells them that while they should be able to teach, he has to go back and preach the gospel again. The whole of Hebrews is that Christ is the eternal sacrifice in the order of Melchizedek and no other sacrifice is needed..
Very clearly put @Douglas Summers
 






Todd

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All these different opinions are quite confusing for an outsider. I still can't really figure out what Christianity is in general because they constantly oppose each other's ideas like in this post.
Jesus said we are his disciples if we follow his commands, not if we believe the right doctrine or dogma.

When pressed about the commandments Jesus summed it up by saying "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself." If a doctrine or dogma doesn't lead one to follow these two things then it is either incorrect or largely irrelevant.
 






Lisa

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You see, You did not understand the context of the Scripture. This is written to the Hebrew, (Jews) who had excepted Christ but were sacrificing blood sacrifices for their sins. This amounted to hanging Christ on the cross of shame again every time they sinned. Before that verse he tells them that while they should be able to teach, he has to go back and preach the gospel again. The whole of Hebrews is that Christ is the eternal sacrifice in the order of Melchizedek and no other sacrifice is needed..
No, who gets to have the Helper, the Holy Spirit but the Christians? Who else believes on Jesus and is saved? It’s totally to the Christians. If you doubt this, then don’t doubt Paul who was the apostle to the gentiles...he agrees with Hebrews 6:4-8
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​
 






Red Sky at Morning

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You see, You did not understand the context of the Scripture. This is written to the Hebrew, (Jews) who had excepted Christ but were sacrificing blood sacrifices for their sins. This amounted to hanging Christ on the cross of shame again every time they sinned. Before that verse he tells them that while they should be able to teach, he has to go back and preach the gospel again. The whole of Hebrews is that Christ is the eternal sacrifice in the order of Melchizedek and no other sacrifice is needed..
What you said here ties in perfectly with what Dr Andy Woods said on the subject:-


What I find interesting is that the letter to the Hebrews, perhaps more than any of the other, epistles, draws on the Jewish cultural context and assumes a higher level of scriptural background. As such, as Gentile Christians, reading in translation and largely without an understanding of 1st Century Jewish realities, it is easy to get things mixed up and lose the overall sense of the message.

I’m sure the “Writer to the Hebrews” would have liked John Wayne’s quote as much as I do!

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Lisa

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I’m sure the “Writer to the Hebrews” would have liked John Wayne’s quote as much as I do!
I’m sure since the Bible is inspired by God..and God wants everyone to be saved..that God and the writer of Hebrews wouldn’t like that quote so much.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I’m sure since the Bible is inspired by God..and God wants everyone to be saved..that God and the writer of Hebrews wouldn’t like that quote so much.
OK, would you regard Hebrews (or Leviticus for that matter) to be light reading and immediately accessible? I certainly struggled to piece the ideas together without confusion till recently.
 






Lisa

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OK, would you regard Hebrews (or Leviticus for that matter) to be light reading and immediately accessible? I certainly struggled to piece the ideas together without confusion till recently.
Ya, it is difficult reading, but that doesn’t mean you can’t know it is all I’m saying. I remember when I got it, sitting in the small group and no one else seemed to. That doesn’t mean we should be proud or arrogant that we got it and no one else can which is what that quote seems to suggest.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Ya, it is difficult reading, but that doesn’t mean you can’t know it is all I’m saying. I remember when I got it, sitting in the small group and no one else seemed to. That doesn’t mean we should be proud or arrogant that we got it and no one else can which is what that quote seems to suggest.
It seems to me that your reading of this section of Hebrews flies in the face of 1 John 1v9 and the wider context of Hebrews though Lisa?

If you sin, do you only ever do so by accident? If not, according to your interpretation, you are in trouble!!

As a potentially legalistic first century Jew (and Christian convert) committing a sin, there would be the choice to confess that sin to the Lord and receive forgiveness and restored fellowship (the new way 1 John 1v9) or to do what they traditionally did and sacrifice an offering at the Temple.

This would surely be an act of unbelief in the sufficiency of the Atonement. A known Christian convert doing this in front of unsaved Jews, would be seen to “crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
 






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Lisa

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It seems to me that your reading of this section of Hebrews flies in the face of 1 John 1v9 and the wider context of Hebrews though Lisa?

If you sin, do you only ever do so by accident? If not, according to your interpretation, you are in trouble!!

As a potentially legalistic first century Jew (and Christian convert) committing a sin, there would be the choice to confess that sin to the Lord and receive forgiveness and restored fellowship (1 John 1v9) or to do what they traditionally did and sacrifice an offering at the Temple. A know Christian doing this in front of unsaved Jews, and be seen to “crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
I have never said one sin was enough to cause you to fall away and lose your salvation and that is what that verse alludes to.

Who gets the Holy Spirit though Red? Is it Christians or Jews?

What is the faith that Paul talks about in 1 Timothy? Is it Judaism? We have 2 verses talking about falling away and they are talking to the Christians because of the Holy Spirit and the faith that is talked about in both verses.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I have never said one sin was enough to cause you to fall away and lose your salvation and that is what that verse alludes to.

Who gets the Holy Spirit though Red? Is it Christians or Jews?

What is the faith that Paul talks about in 1 Timothy? Is it Judaism? We have 2 verses talking about falling away and they are talking to the Christians because of the Holy Spirit and the faith that is talked about in both verses.
Matthew 18

21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Do you think the standard of forgiveness God extends to us is likely to be less than that which he expects us to extend to each other?
 






Lisa

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Matthew 18

21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Do you think the standard of forgiveness God extends to us is likely to be less than that which he expects us to extend to each other?
You don’t know who gets the Holy Spirit or the faith that Paul talks about?

Are you forgiven if you don’t repent?
 






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No, who gets to have the Helper, the Holy Spirit but the Christians? Who else believes on Jesus and is saved? It’s totally to the Christians. If you doubt this, then don’t doubt Paul who was the apostle to the gentiles...he agrees with Hebrews 6:4-8
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​
That has nothing to do with Hebrews. And yes many are falling away from the faith. If you study the Parables of Jesus in Matthew Chapter 13, Christ gives the whole pre history of the Church age till the judgment. if you notice, the parables tell about the false church members in the visible church that make up the Church, The Tares, The leaven, The mustard seed that grows wild, The birds of the air. All of these were Christ warnings that the visible church would be full of deceitful members that act like but are not Christians (born again believers) Many shall come to me saying Lord, Lord, and I will say to them away from me...I NEVER KNEW YOU!!!
 






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