Deception in the Church

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#1
Deception in the Church.....
A big deception in the church is once saved always saved.
I know that we have been debating back and forth over this very issue for the last couple of days. And I can only go back to verses that I think back up that this is false....
Romans 11:20-22
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Matthew 26:33
But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."
Matthew 24:10
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end
Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Hebrews 10:36-39
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Hebrews 3:6
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Hebrews 3:14
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Luke 21:36
But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.
Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

The pre-trib rapture-I believe this is also a false, pie in the sky belief for Christians these days. Getting the Christian to hope for and wait for deliverance from the great tribulation and then saying people will be saved after that and they will be the ones here on earth to go through the great tribulation. I feel like that is a setup for a great disappointment and falling away from God when those people find themselves here in the great trib. Some would say that that is for the Christians who get saved after the rapture, but I say, that God who began that good work in us is the one perfecting it until the day of Jesus and he won’t be taking us out, when we are His representatives on earth and we will be the ones going before kings and governors as a witness for Him.
God has not destined us for wrath, before the wrath of God is when we will be taken out and not before. The whole of the great tribulation is not God’s wrath.

Kjv onlyism- I think this is a sad commentary of Christian life and ironic. Since the kjv was done in order for the common man to know the Bible where before only the ‘priests’ could read it in a language that the common man couldn’t. So how weird is it that people nowadays are claiming that a Bible that contains a language that many can’t understand is the only true Bible? True, there are deceptive ‘bibles’ out there, but this is extreme.

Ecumenicalism- The belief that we can all come together despite differences...or a song I’ve heard, we all bleed the same. Yes, we all bleed the same, but we don’t all think the same, and going along to get along is not acceptable when it comes to the truth in scripture.
You have islam saying Jesus isn’t the Son of God, you have catholics recrucifying Jesus every week, and many other beliefs being upgraded to being equal to each other so we can all get along? As a Christian we sell out when we say, ok, no big deal that you don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God, or yes, lets take part in your mass. Jesus makes it clear...If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own, but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
So you see ecumenicalism is deceiving, sounds nice, but deceiving all the same.

Catholicism-the pope being the vicar of Christ, does Christ need a vicar? No man is on par with Christ. He is also a big proponent of ecumenicalism, wanting to reunite with what he calls the ‘lost brethren.’
Mary....O dear, Mary she would be heartbroken to know that she is idolized and equated as God, and God hates idols...so the whole Mary thing is bad.
I could go on...but we must move on...

The NAR-The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is a dominionist movement which asserts that God is restoring the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of Prophet and Apostle.
Leading figures in this seemingly loosely organized movement claim that these prophets and apostles alone have the power and authority to execute God’s plans and purposes on earth. They believe they are laying the foundation for a global church, governed by them.
Jesus doesn’t need our help....
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16

Emerging church-Scripture is no longer the ultimate authority as the basis for the Christian faith.
-The centrality of the gospel of Jesus Christ is being replaced by humanistic methods promoting church growth and a social gospel.
-More and more emphasis is being placed on building the kingdom of God now and less and less on the warnings of Scripture about the imminent return of Jesus Christ and a coming judgment in the future.
-The teaching that Jesus Christ will rule and reign in a literal millennial period is considered unbiblical and heretical.
-The teaching that the church has taken the place of Israel and Israel has no prophetic significance is often embraced.
-The teaching that the Book of Revelation does not refer to the future, but instead has been already fulfilled in the past.
-An experiential mystical form of Christianity begins to be promoted as a method to reach the postmodern generation.
-Ideas are promoted teaching that Christianity needs to be reinvented in order to provide meaning for this generation.
-The pastor may implement an idea called “ancient-future” or “vintage Christianity” claiming that in order to take the church forward, we need to go back in church history and find out what experiences were effective to get people to embrace Christianity.
-While the authority of the Word of God is undermined, images and sensual experiences are promoted as the key to experiencing and knowing God.
-These experiences include icons, candles, incense, liturgy, labyrinths, prayer stations, contemplative prayer, experiencing the sacraments, particularly the sacrament of the Eucharist.
-There seems to be a strong emphasis on ecumenism indicating that a bridge is being established that leads in the direction of unity with the Roman Catholic Church.
-Some evangelical Protestant leaders are saying that the Reformation went too far. They are reexamining the claims of the “church fathers” saying that communion is more than a symbol and that Jesus actually becomes present in the wafer at communion.
-There will be a growing trend towards an ecumenical unity for the cause of world peace claiming the validity of other religions and that there are many ways to God.
-Members of churches who question or resist the new changes that the pastor is implementing are reprimanded and usually asked to leave.

Yoga and kung fu-The church has embraced these two things and is now making it ‘Christian’, when they clearly are not Christian. It reminds me of when Christians took over pagan holiday to make them Christian in hopes of spreading the gospel...they sure spread something...but not the gospel. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Holy laughter and other various teaching of the Toronto blessing! Wow, this is such a wrong teaching and I have no idea how anyone could think that has anything to do with God, considering one of the fruits of the spirit is self control

Joel Osteen and numerous others because its profitable to itch those ears...and line your pockets at the same time...smh

Talks about much of what I just said...
https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/apostatechurch.htm

Good discernment website. Can purchase a video series called Wide is the Gate by Caryl Matrisciana, it goes through the new age influences in the church.
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/

Edit: disclosure...op was liked before this edit.

I’m going to add Replacement Theology to the list. Because we Christians do not replace the Jews in the covenant. Paul clearly stated that we are grafted in but we do not become the new “Jews.”
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
 





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#2
Vatican City, Jan 1, 2018 / 03:55 am (CNA/EWTN News).- At the start of the new year, Pope Francis said that having a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary isn’t just something that is nice or good to do, but is an obligation in the life of a Christian.

“Devotion to Mary is not spiritual etiquette; it is a requirement of the Christian life,” the Pope said Jan. 1. “The gift of the Mother, the gift of every mother and every woman, is most precious for the Church, for she too is mother and woman.”
 





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#3
Rut roh!
A church in a Swedish city has defended its choice of gender-neutral pronoun ‘hen’ in reference to Jesus in an advertisement. The church insists the word gives “new perspective.”
In November, the largest religious institution in the country, the Church of Sweden, advised its clergy to avoid terms like ‘Lord’and ‘He’ in worship services in order to not highlight that God is male.
 





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#4
While i believe in once saved always saved (from eternal death) i agree with all the rest, nice work you did here..
 





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#5
While i believe in once saved always saved (from eternal death) i agree with all the rest, nice work you did here..
Thanks Vytas :)

You should pray about and reconsider once saved always saved...
 





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#6

The church has been corrupt since its inception imo
 





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#8
Lucifer in Latin is a word, not a name, signifying "he who brings light". It's not because some new age pseudo-spiritual occultists recreated the concept of Lucifer that it has the same meaning in Catholic liturgy. Lucifer (or morning star) is used in reference to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:19:

We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris


Are you saying the scripture too has been corrupt since its inception?
 





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#12
@Lisa

I think replacement theology has historically contributed to much mistrust between the Church and the Jews. On the other hand, they were in a sense cut off and thrown out of the land. An interesting study I did years ago was on the five cycles of discipline.


Worth a read (or better a watch if you have time) if you are unaware of it as it explains so much of the action relating to the Jewish nation throughout history.

You opened your identification of deceptions with the following passage...

Romans 11:20-22

"Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cutoff."

This passage has been a popular one to abuse to make a case for the replacement of the Jews by the Church. Broken off sounds pretty drastic. In the wider context it appears to indicate that "broken off" has much more resonance with the kind of discipline they had fallen into earlier in their history (e.g. removed from their land, Temple destroyed and living in Babylon).

I bring this up as I know you can see this too. The implications are interesting though -

Much confusion in these passages can arise from words like "broken off" and "cut off". I know when it comes to Israel you can see the distinction between cut off and permanently rejected and falling under the fifth cycle of discipline.

When it comes to individual faith, you seem to be harsher on Christians than you would be on the Jewish nation. Just an observation.
 





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#13
@Lisa

I think replacement theology has historically contributed to much mistrust between the Church and the Jews. On the other hand, they were in a sense cut off and thrown out of the land. An interesting study I did years ago was on the five cycles of discipline.


Worth a read (or better a watch if you have time) if you are unaware of it as it explains so much of the action relating to the Jewish nation throughout history.

You opened your identification of deceptions with the following passage...

Romans 11:20-22

"Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cutoff."

This passage has been a popular one to abuse to make a case for the replacement of the Jews by the Church. Broken off sounds pretty drastic. In the wider context it appears to indicate that "broken off" has much more resonance with the kind of discipline they had fallen into earlier in their history (e.g. removed from their land, Temple destroyed and living in Babylon).

I bring this up as I know you can see this too. The implications are interesting though -

Much confusion in these passages can arise from words like "broken off" and "cut off". I know when it comes to Israel you can see the distinction between cut off and permanently rejected and falling under the fifth cycle of discipline.

When it comes to individual faith, you seem to be harsher on Christians than you would be on the Jewish nation. Just an observation.
I see how you might see it that way...
However, in Romans 11:11 I say they did not stumble to fall did they? May it never be! Later saying that it was only a partial hardening that happened to Israel.

In 1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

I think its interesting that Paul says they did not stumble to fall did they? And his answer, May it never be, while telling Timothy that God explicitly says that some WILL fall from the faith.
 





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#14
@Red Sky at Morning I'm not going to go to lengths to defend replacement theology, but what do you says about what Jesus said in Matthew 21:43
"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits."

and then after the birth of the Church Peter says in 1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
 





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#15
Replacement theology was caused by the Jewish elite. I feel so bad when I hear people talk about replacement theology as though it were something that needed to be confessed. So, when the early church was being formed, the Jewish elite were persecuting Christians. That doesn't mean that all Jews were against the church. The book of Romans is written to a Jewish and Gentile audience. However, these Jews were not often the Jewish elite who have relationships with the Roman elite.

We learn about how this relationship worked in the book of Acts.

"Then Festus, wanting to do a favor for the Jews, replied to Paul, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem, there to be tried before me on these charges?” (Acts 25:9).

There are numerous verses like this in the book of Acts that should be able to show us how the Jewish elite were involved in the persecution of the early church. In addition to this, if we read The Jewish War by Josephus, we also learn what an integral part of life the Jewish monarchy was and how even someone like Josephus wanted to preserve the image of these people. He claims great miracles took place for these people that he describes with faults in similar fashion with the way the book of Kings is written as well.

So when the temple collapsed is the last that we really hear in history books about these people. The descendents of Herod and the rest of the Jewish elite seem to disappear. Although, does anyone really think that these people who made a God out of their geneological records actually disappeared? No, of course they didn't.

So in the years surrounding Constantine's conversion in Rome, it was a couple hundred years since the temple fell. The Jewish elite who lived in Rome blame the church for this and the church is still growing and going strong. The conversion of Constantine and the creation of the Holy Roman empire was also a favor to the Jews at one point in time. It is why we are criticized as having a religion rooted in paganism because this was how the Jewish elite and their geneologies separated themselves from the Christian church and made the church into a religion of the gentiles. Making it appear to be a religion of the Genitles was a favor to the Jews who wanted to keep a distinction. It is why the Catholic church as a political entity changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. This was so that no one was worshipping on the Jews day of worship.

This doesn't dismiss early church doctrine, however. Early christian writings and an orthodox position towards subjects like Christology are not the result of the Jewish intervention. It is basically what we know historically as the cornerstones of the Christian state that were created to separate the Gentiles from the Jews.

This separation is what the Jew's today claim as replacement theology. However, this is nothing more than a new way to persecute the church. It is very hard for some people to accept that there is Jewish hierarchy who do want to persecute the church. This is not antisemitic. This is the just the reality.

This is one of the better articles on the subject. However, it is not where I learned about this. https://sites.google.com/site/insearchofyhvh/did-the-jews-create-the-roman-catholic-religion

I really think there is great evidence that the church does not accept replacement theology and never has. If you ever get a chance to see a group of Christians willingly seem to flog themselves for this crime, it becomes hard to believe that there was a time when Christians were concluding anything close to a replacement theology that they are accused with. I have seen them do this on more than one occassion and I always wish I could get them to see that their willingness to do this means they are more than likely not guilty of anything. Either that, or it would be great to see people be so eager to confess sin like this all the time. We don't see that often, and there is probably a reason for this.

For those who think replacement theology is real, why do you think people are so willing to confess replacement theology and so often unwilling to confess other sins?
 





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#16
Replacement theology was caused by the Jewish elite. I feel so bad when I hear people talk about replacement theology as though it were something that needed to be confessed. So, when the early church was being formed, the Jewish elite were persecuting Christians. That doesn't mean that all Jews were against the church. The book of Romans is written to a Jewish and Gentile audience. However, these Jews were not often the Jewish elite who have relationships with the Roman elite.

We learn about how this relationship worked in the book of Acts.

"Then Festus, wanting to do a favor for the Jews, replied to Paul, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem, there to be tried before me on these charges?” (Acts 25:9).

There are numerous verses like this in the book of Acts that should be able to show us how the Jewish elite were involved in the persecution of the early church. In addition to this, if we read The Jewish War by Josephus, we also learn what an integral part of life the Jewish monarchy was and how even someone like Josephus wanted to preserve the image of these people. He claims great miracles took place for these people that he describes with faults in similar fashion with the way the book of Kings is written as well.

So when the temple collapsed is the last that we really hear in history books about these people. The descendents of Herod and the rest of the Jewish elite seem to disappear. Although, does anyone really think that these people who made a God out of their geneological records actually disappeared? No, of course they didn't.

So in the years surrounding Constantine's conversion in Rome, it was a couple hundred years since the temple fell. The Jewish elite who lived in Rome blame the church for this and the church is still growing and going strong. The conversion of Constantine and the creation of the Holy Roman empire was also a favor to the Jews at one point in time. It is why we are criticized as having a religion rooted in paganism because this was how the Jewish elite and their geneologies separated themselves from the Christian church and made the church into a religion of the gentiles. Making it appear to be a religion of the Genitles was a favor to the Jews who wanted to keep a distinction. It is why the Catholic church as a political entity changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. This was so that no one was worshipping on the Jews day of worship.

This doesn't dismiss early church doctrine, however. Early christian writings and an orthodox position towards subjects like Christology are not the result of the Jewish intervention. It is basically what we know historically as the cornerstones of the Christian state that were created to separate the Gentiles from the Jews.

This separation is what the Jew's today claim as replacement theology. However, this is nothing more than a new way to persecute the church. It is very hard for some people to accept that there is Jewish hierarchy who do want to persecute the church. This is not antisemitic. This is the just the reality.

This is one of the better articles on the subject. However, it is not where I learned about this. https://sites.google.com/site/insearchofyhvh/did-the-jews-create-the-roman-catholic-religion

I really think there is great evidence that the church does not accept replacement theology and never has. If you ever get a chance to see a group of Christians willingly seem to flog themselves for this crime, it becomes hard to believe that there was a time when Christians were concluding anything close to a replacement theology that they are accused with. I have seen them do this on more than one occassion and I always wish I could get them to see that their willingness to do this means they are more than likely not guilty of anything. Either that, or it would be great to see people be so eager to confess sin like this all the time. We don't see that often, and there is probably a reason for this.

For those who think replacement theology is real, why do you think people are so willing to confess replacement theology and so often unwilling to confess other sins?
It seems that Paul might have been worried about that as well?
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
 





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#17
It seems that Paul might have been worried about that as well?
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Right, but the point I am also trying to make is that I cannot see from a historical perspective or a current perspective where people aren't jumping up and down to witness to the Jews. Therefore, the accusation that somehow the church was ever interpreting that the Jews were replaced is false. It is an accusation meant to elevate the opinion of Jews as having a higher status than the average church member. It is essentially a way of creating a social hierarchy by accusing the church of something they were never guilty of.
 





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#18
Paul was saying this to mediate between the disagreements they were having on other aspects of living as Christians together. He is telling them how they exist as a community. He isn't admitting or telling anyone they are guilty of what we call replacement theology.

He was speaking the church of Rome that was a mixed church of Jews and Gentiles. Jews and Gentiles lived separately and were now trying to live together as one faith. The letter was encouraging them to see their strengths. It was also written with the intention of finding support for the church of Jerusalem. The church of Rome was a financial supporter of the church of Jerusalem that lived in greater degrees of poverty. The letter has a very interesting history and proves that replacement theology just doesn't exist frankly.
 





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#19
Just catching up...

I can see some of your points @rainerann ... Replacement theology does not exist in isolation. I can see how early Christians were persecuted by the Jews, and the battles with Jewish legalism that the Early Church faced. So much of what happens is due to the "Hegelian Dialectic", push and push back...

Pushing off from legalists you get libitarians, pushing off from lazy, sinful Christians, you get legalists! Counsellors go to lengths to identify their own biasses in order to see more clearly and hopefully more objectively the counsel they offer.

Perhaps this isn't the thread for me as I powerfully believe at least two and a half of the identified deceptions, namely the security of the believer and the pre-trib rapture, as well as having a preference for the KJV (based on a mistrust of the Alexandrian texts and the RV which they inspired) whilst acknowledging that there is nothing magical about the KJV and that God can still speak through the most opaque and redacted translations as they still contain most of the words ;-)