Deception in the Church

Lisa

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@Lisa

Ref question #1 from Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

“Some shall depart from the faith - The Greek word here - ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai - is that from which we have derived the word "apostatize," and would be properly so rendered here. The meaning is, that they would "apostatize" from the belief of the truths of the gospel. It does not mean that, as individuals, they would have been true Christians; but that there would be a departure from the great doctrines which constitute the Christian faith. The ways in which they would do this are immediately specified, showing what the apostle meant here by departing from the faith. They would give heed to seducing spirits, to the doctrines of devils, etc. The use of the word "some," here τινες tines - does not imply that the number would be small. The meaning is, that "certain persons" would thus depart, or that "there would be" an apostasy of the kind here mentioned, in the last days. From the parallel passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it would seem that this was to be an extensive apostasy.”
I don’t care who your reference...what is your answer...answer the questions!
 





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You either don’t know or don’t want to answer either way by not answering the questions honestly my estimation of you being a brother in Christ continues on a downward trajectory. A brother in Christ wouldn’t continue to stall so much on two questions, easy questions to answer btw.

1.) It doesn’t need a verse for an answer..who is it that can receive the Holy Spirit?

2.) Who are the people of faith that Paul talks about in 1Timothy 4:1?
More kettle calling the pot black....
The more discussions we have on this forum the more likely Lisa will be convinced she is the only Christian here. LOL!
 





Lisa

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More kettle calling the pot black....
The more discussions we have on this forum the more likely Lisa will be convinced she is the only Christian here. LOL!
Maybe..haha. But I know you aren’t one and I have to say Red blew it today.

Edit: and outed in deception in the church, poetic.
 





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Of

Of course you’re clueless....are you even a Christian or have you been pretending all this time?
Do you have no shame, woman? You have so much pride and arrogance that it sickens me. @Red Sky at Morning is a good man. And so is @Todd even if he's possibly deceived. The angel Michael wouldn't give a railing judgment against Satan but said "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude). What gives you the right to judge anyone? Clap your hand over your mouth and be silent.
 





Lisa

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Do you have no shame, woman? You have so much pride and arrogance that it sickens me. @Red Sky at Morning is a good man. And so is @Todd even if he's possibly deceived. The angel Michael wouldn't give a railing judgment against Satan but said "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude). What gives you the right to judge anyone? Clap your hand over your mouth and be silent.
Don’t you want to know if you’ve been deceived by someone you thought of as a brother in Christ? He can’t answer some basic questions.

I’ve asked him 4 times for the answer but has dodged the answers like he does and tries to deflect the questions onto something else so he doesn’t have to answer them. He could have avoided it all by answering. But it was his anniversary first then he has to think about it...seems wrong to me.

‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.​

Should we just pretend it’s not true, Dalit?
 





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Don’t you want to know if you’ve been deceived by someone you thought of as a brother in Christ? He can’t answer some basic questions.

I’ve asked him 4 times for the answer but has dodged the answers like he does and tries to deflect the questions onto something else so he doesn’t have to answer them. He could have avoided it all by answering. But it was his anniversary first then he has to think about it...seems wrong to me.

‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭​

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.​

Should we just pretend it’s not true, Dalit?
He's a good one, Lisa. He's a true believer. Glad he has a life and an anniversary to celebrate.

I get passionate when people I care about are being maligned. He and Todd are good men.
 





Lisa

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Once a lil bro bully...?lol

Red is like that... like teflon lol and that's probably why he is still married and can celebrate anniversaries.

Congratulations Red : )
I finally got your reference..haha.

I’m still married and celebrated my anniversary, wasn’t here but was spending time with my husband.
 





Lisa

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He's a good one, Lisa. He's a true believer. Glad he has a life and an anniversary to celebrate.

I get passionate when people I care about are being maligned. He and Todd are good men.
How do you know Red is a good one though, really? He can’t answer the simplest questions that I bet you knew the answer to. And he gave me several excuses on why he couldn’t.

Would you spend your anniversary on the forum or with the one you love?

Sure I get that Dalit, however, we should be careful about being deceived by people and you of all people should know that. The nar got you and I forget which other one. I don’t say that to be mean to you but to have you think about what it means to be deceived.

Perhaps Todd is a good man...we only have his word for it though and he does post a lot of wrong stuff that a young teen saw through.
 





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How do you know Red is a good one though, really? He can’t answer the simplest questions that I bet you knew the answer to. And he gave me several excuses on why he couldn’t.

Would you spend your anniversary on the forum or with the one you love?
Good morning Lisa!

Well - what can I say... I could try to be defensive and waste effort *proving* it was my Anniversary yesterday but that would be boring!

The DVD I was watching was very sweet, but didn’t require my whole brain (if you have ever watched one of those...)


*if you like dogs, you would love this one!

To your other comments, I refer you to our discussion on the 24 Elders of Revelation. I asked you a question you had not investigated, and to which you eventually replied:-

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/high-watch-times.4433/page-4#post-221794

I asked you the question on a Friday, you responded on the Sunday and I wanted to give you room to think about it if you wanted to. Your response on the Sunday hit on a number of issues in one post to which I am yet to reply (but will in due course).

One of the things I have learned over the years I have been married is that when you argue (and you do!) that you can learn a lot from what is said about the presuppositions of the other person. Like a weed popping up through a path, if you handle it right, you can get the root out.

Let’s have a look a Hebrews 6:- (annotated for your implied meaning)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,​
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,​
6 If they shall fall away, [i.e. go into a sinful lifestyle of which they are unrepentant for a period of time] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

1 Timothy 4

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, [having once been born again] giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;​

Given this interpretation of the above verses, I would conclude that we are children of our father in Heaven to the same degree that foster children are part of their temporary families. At any point, a misdemeanour, or established pattern of poor behaviour might have you turned out of your home. Your “brothers” and “sisters” likewise would be a varying group, at any time likely to be taken away, never to be seen again.

In order to avoid being seduced by doctrines of demons, any variance of doctrine from those you regard as orthodox must be treated with suspicion as one more “Christian” on the broad road to Hell. As such, a belief in the security of a believers salvation or in a pre-Trib Rapture must be highly suspect to a post-Trib Arminian Christian.

Some time ago, in the US, there was a push to “out” communists. The McCarthy era was absorbed with finding “Reds under the bed” and many (non-communist) artists, writers and actors were outed as a result.

I look at Christian faith from the other side - as such, you might hold to a covenant theology, be an amillennialist, agree with infant baptism, or go to an Eastern Orthodox Church and have far too much liking for ornate looking icons for my taste. IF you believe truly in the Gospel, (despite your other odd doctrines), you are my brother or sister. If you don’t, you are not.

C.S. Lewis unpacked this perspective in “Mere Christianity” btw...

 





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A popular “focus verse” for Gnostics is the following:-

John 10

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​

I have seen many people try to force a meaning of apotheosis and “Christ Consciousness” from a straightforward interpretation of this verse, despite that interpretation going entirely against the overwhelming body of evidence against that view. Michael S. Heisser does a great job with this in his *big* book, “The Unseen Realm”, illustrating the point that sometimes you have to provide a long answer to a short question!

Sometimes passages are rather difficult and require some study to properly understand. If this were not so, Peter would have never said the following about the words of Paul:-

2 Peter 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

Widening the focus to the question of the security of salvation for the genuine, born again believer, I found these studies, taken from old tape recordings very helpful.

1: The Unforgivable Sin

2: What do people mean by “Eternal Security”?

3: Verses that indicate you cannot lose your salvation.

4: Verses that appear to suggest you can lose your salvation.

These form part of a wider series of studies by Roger Price on Salvation which were excellent in their own right and which I commend to anyone.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn37D9Z7GhvqIRsRtOsH9rXC_MwEwffUK

Some questions deserve a considered response. I hope you find my reply helpful @Lisa

[EDIT] P.s. if you still think I am in grave error here, could you tell me how you harmonise the Parable of the Prodigal Son with your interpretation of the passage from Hebrews 6? The ideas seem to be mutually exclusive.

 





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Lisa

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when you argue (and you do!)
I’ve been at the forum awhile and learned how to, otherwise, I wasn’t much for arguing about things, more of a let sleeping dogs lie kind of approach. But, from nearly the first moment I signed up I was forced to fight or die as it were...

Given this interpretation of the above verses, I would conclude that we are children of our father in Heaven to the same degree that foster children are part of their temporary families. At any point, a misdemeanour, or established pattern of poor behaviour might have you turned out of your home. Your “brothers” and “sisters” likewise would be a varying group, at any time likely to be taken away, never to be seen again.

In order to avoid being seduced by doctrines of demons, any variance of doctrine from those you regard as orthodox must be treated with suspicion as one more “Christian” on the broad road to Hell. As such, a belief in the security of a believers salvation or in a pre-Trib Rapture must be highly suspect to a post-Trib Arminian Christian.
While I am astonished to say the least that you replied to part of my question, as always, you fail to answer the question I posed to you.
Who are the people of faith that Paul is talking about? And who can have the Holy Spirit...its all the same answer isn’t it? And not very hard to come up with if you’re being honest.

Look, you can try to label what I am all you want, but I have no idea what an Arminian Christian is. All I know is what I have read from the Bible, its as simple as that.

despite your other odd doctrines
Lol! Yes, I am outside the box on a few areas and it kind of cracks me up to be thought of as traditional or fundamental when I wouldn’t call not celebrating holidays, being pre wrath or thinking once saved always saved traditional doctrines. But, I am fundamental when it comes to the Bible and what the Bible says.

1Timothy 4:1 says in later times some shall depart from the faith. Meaning that some people were part of a faith. All we need to do is figure out what faith that is, right? Its Paul talking, Paul was an apostle to the gentiles who was charged with telling the gentiles the good news of Christ and making disciples of them. Paul also is talking to a pastor to some Christians, so I think it safe that Paul is talking about Christians and no one else.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit.
Who are the people who are made partakers of the Holy Spirit?
John‬ ‭14:26‬ ‭
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.​
‭‭That’s right its the Christians again. So, it would seems that the Christians can fall away. What happens to them if that should happen?
Hebrews‬ ‭6:6‬ ‭
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​
‭‭
So, then I think we can conclude that if you fall away, and its an if not a certainty, if you fall away from the Christian faith...then you cannot come back from it. That’s a pretty big deal don’t ya think? That Christians should know about. You talked about my not living in joy because of all the things that I think, but knowing is forewarned, not bogging me down.
 





Lisa

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Some questions deserve a considered response. I hope you find my reply helpful @Lisa

[EDIT] P.s. if you still think I am in grave error here, could you tell me how you harmonise the Parable of the Prodigal Son with your interpretation of the passage from Hebrews 6? The ideas seem to be mutually exclusive.

Why once saved always saved is no bueno...

1.) If it happened to the Israelites it can happen to you...God tells us we are not better than Israel.
Romans 11:17-25‬ ‭
“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;”
‭‭

2.) Falling away....The Bible tells us falling away is a possibility for those in the faith...Jesus, Peter, Paul and the writer of Hebrews knew of it.

Matthew 24:10
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

Matthew 26:33
But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."


1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

2 Peter 3:14-18‬ ‭
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
‭‭2 Peter 3:14-18‬ ‭

Hebrews 2:1‬-3
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. “For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a
salvation?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.


3.) How does the falling away happen?
2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
‭‭
Galatians 5:2-9
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Colossians 2:8‬ ‭
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
‭‭

4.) What happens to those who fall away....because there is a punishment for falling away.
2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Hebrews 10:36-39
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


5.) Not everyone who says they are Christians are Christians.
Matthew 7:15-23
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

6.) Test to see if you are in the faith....
‭‭2 Corinthians 13:5-6‬
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.”

Acts 17:11‬ ‭
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

‭‭‭Jude 1:20-21
But you beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

7.) Some iffy things....
Hebrews 3:6
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hebrews 3:14
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

John 8:51
Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 11:22
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 2:24
Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.


8.) Be alert!
Luke 21:36
But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

1 Corinthians‬ ‭16:13‬
Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

1 Peter 5:8-9‬
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

‭‭1 Thessalonians 5:4-6‬ ‭
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.”


9.) Endurance is key!
Matthew 24:13
The one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
‭‭‭
2 Timothy 2:12‬
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us.


Ephesians‬ ‭6:10-18‬
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints.
‭‭‭

I made this quite some time ago @Red Sky at Morning and believe this to be the truth. I have thought long and hard about it already, so this is my reply to you.
 





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I’ve been at the forum awhile and learned how to, otherwise, I wasn’t much for arguing about things, more of a let sleeping dogs lie kind of approach. But, from nearly the first moment I signed up I was forced to fight or die as it were...


While I am astonished to say the least that you replied to part of my question, as always, you fail to answer the question I posed to you.
Who are the people of faith that Paul is talking about? And who can have the Holy Spirit...its all the same answer isn’t it? And not very hard to come up with if you’re being honest.

Look, you can try to label what I am all you want, but I have no idea what an Arminian Christian is. All I know is what I have read from the Bible, its as simple as that.


Lol! Yes, I am outside the box on a few areas and it kind of cracks me up to be thought of as traditional or fundamental when I wouldn’t call not celebrating holidays, being pre wrath or thinking once saved always saved traditional doctrines. But, I am fundamental when it comes to the Bible and what the Bible says.

1Timothy 4:1 says in later times some shall depart from the faith. Meaning that some people were part of a faith. All we need to do is figure out what faith that is, right? Its Paul talking, Paul was an apostle to the gentiles who was charged with telling the gentiles the good news of Christ and making disciples of them. Paul also is talking to a pastor to some Christians, so I think it safe that Paul is talking about Christians and no one else.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit.
Who are the people who are made partakers of the Holy Spirit?
John‬ ‭14:26‬ ‭​

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.​
‭‭That’s right its the Christians again. So, it would seems that the Christians can fall away. What happens to them if that should happen?
Hebrews‬ ‭6:6‬ ‭​

and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​
‭‭
So, then I think we can conclude that if you fall away, and its an if not a certainty, if you fall away from the Christian faith...then you cannot come back from it. That’s a pretty big deal don’t ya think? That Christians should know about. You talked about my not living in joy because of all the things that I think, but knowing is forewarned, not bogging me down.
1 Corinthians 5

Immorality Rebuked
(Leviticus 20:10-21; Proverbs 5:1-23)

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

OK @Lisa, you will admit that the one who was given over to Satan for sleeping with his fathers wife and put out of the fellowship must by all estimations have “fell away”. According to your analysis of the Hebrews passage, such a one is doomed and should be either shunned forever or just ignored.

What happened in 2 Corinthians though?

2 Corinthians 2

Reaffirm Your Love

1But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. 2For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? 3And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. 4For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.

5But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. 6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 9For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; 11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices
 





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Lisa

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OK Lisa, you will admit that the one who was given over to Satan for sleeping with his fathers wife and put out of the fellowship must by all estimations have “fell away”. According to your analysis of the Hebrews passage, such a one is doomed and should be either shunned forever or just ignored.
Shunned and ignored by me? I don’t ignore Todd, maybe I should since there is a verse about not hanging out with people who fell away...I’ll have to think about what verse that is. I saw it not too long ago...anyway, if you fall away from the faith, ya, you are doomed and can’t come back from it, from what scripture says.

What happened in 2 Corinthians though?
What do you mean?
 





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Shunned and ignored by me? I don’t ignore Todd, maybe I should since there is a verse about not hanging out with people who fell away...I’ll have to think about what verse that is. I saw it not too long ago...anyway, if you fall away from the faith, ya, you are doomed and can’t come back from it, from what scripture says.


What do you mean?
Look at the advice Paul gave to the Corinthians regarding the one who had fallen away. I am not saying you personally shun anyone but that the logical conclusion of your beliefs about Hebrews 6 suggest you should. If the church at Corinth had taken that view, surely they should have quoted this passage to Paul and told the disgraced believer to clear off, instead of listening to Paul’s advice to do the following:-

6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
 





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Lisa

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Look at the advice Paul gave to the Corinthians regarding the one who had fallen away. I am not saying you personally shun anyone but that the logical conclusion of your beliefs about Hebrews 6 suggest you should. If the church at Corinth had taken that view, surely they should have quoted this passage to Paul and told the disgraced believer to clear off, instead of listening to Paul’s advice to do the following:-

6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
I think you naturally shun the person not because you are being mean, but because oil and water don’t mix.
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭6:14‬ ‭
For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?​