another gospel ("Christianity")

Lyfe

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Why then do "Christians" choose to cherry-pick what parts they want and what parts they don't (e.g. that murder, adultery, r*pe, homosexuality, pharmacy and child trafficking are capital crimes)?

Isn't that exactly why we are in the greatest tribulation/oppression of all time, precisely because "Christians" don't do as Christ COMMANDS?

There are more "Christians" in the world today than ever before, and the world is getting darker and darker by the day, if not by the hour. Isn't that a crystal clear sign from the heavens that "Christianity" is preaching another 'gospel' that simply DOES NOT WORK?
Do you cherry pick or do you keep the whole law without fail? All or nothing.
 
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The "Spirit" of The Law (God's Law, NOT unlawful man-made legislation) -- which itself is SPIRITUAL (i.e. The Law is completely foreign to humans) -- is obedience to God (THE Voice of Reason). That specifically translates into doing the right thing (in God's Eyes, NOT ours - Deut. 12:8) for everyone's mutual benefit.

You again presented an apples and oranges comparison, deceitfully fabricated in an attempt to pervert and reverse the truth, and are hoping it will go unnoticed. It's not only shameful, it's downright satanic.

JACOB DOESN'T DIE.

Revelation 7:4-9
7:4 And I HEARD the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of (Jacob) Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Asher [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could count (which is why he was TOLD the number in verse 4), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

ALL of those who follow the pope - who falsely claims to derive his power from the alleged apostolic line of Peter - will find themselves in The Fire (the second death).

Revelation 17:4-9; 17:18; 18:3-8
17:4 And the woman was arrayed in PURPLE (bishops) and SCARLET (cardinals) colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY (2 Thess. 2:7), BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS (her daughters) AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of her saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
17:7 And the angel said unto me, Why didst thou marvel? (Stop it!) I will tell thee the MYSTERY of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the Bottomless Pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the Earth shall wonder, whose names were NOT written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth (Rome).

17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the Earth (Rome).

18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the Earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the Earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT of her, MY people, that ye take not part in her SINS, and that ye receive not of her plagues (punishment).
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her inequities.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God Who judgeth her.

So your silly made-up story, with its upside down and backwards message supporting the "dead" and falsely claiming that the living will die, should be seen for what it is: TOTAL NONSENSE.
I think we've established that we're at the opposite poles regarding our interpretations of the Law.

I'd still like to know though, similar to Lyfe's inquiry:

Do Christians need to be circumcised?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Why then do "Christians" choose to cherry-pick what parts they want and what parts they don't (e.g. that murder, adultery, r*pe, homosexuality, pharmacy and child trafficking are capital crimes)?

Isn't that exactly why we are in the greatest tribulation/oppression of all time, precisely because "Christians" don't do as Christ COMMANDS?

There are more "Christians" in the world today than ever before, and the world is getting darker and darker by the day, if not by the hour. Isn't that a crystal clear sign from the heavens that "Christianity" is preaching another 'gospel' that simply DOES NOT WORK?
Perhaps the elephant in the room is a question

IMG_3667.jpeg

What particular commands do you believe “Christians” are suggesting we don’t keep. You are clearly reacting against a supposed spiritual license to sin that you believe born again Christians believe they hold?
 
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The Sojourner

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Acts
10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted by Him.
 

Lyfe

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Acts
10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted by Him.
Which laws do you feel Christians break the most?
 

A Freeman

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Perhaps the elephant in the room is a question

View attachment 88410

What particular commands do you believe “Christians” are suggesting we don’t keep. You are clearly reacting against a supposed spiritual license to sin that you believe born again Christians believe they hold?
Wouldn't it be a much shorter list to simply list the portions of The Law/Commandments that "Christians" do keep?

Mark 12:29-31
12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength and serve Him ONLY: this [is] the first COMMANDment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other COMMANDment greater than these.

Isn't it the refusal of "Christians" to obey God's Commands, instead choosing to follow another 'gospel', that is the REAL elephant in the room?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Wouldn't it be a much shorter list to simply list the portions of The Law/Commandments that "Christians" do keep?

Mark 12:29-31
12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength and serve Him ONLY: this [is] the first COMMANDment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other COMMANDment greater than these.

Isn't it the refusal of "Christians" to obey God's Commands, instead choosing to follow another 'gospel', that is the REAL elephant in the room?
So you are of the view that Christians teach that these two commands, (which encapsulate the teachings of the Law and the prophets) are something that should be rejected?

Ephesians 2:10 KJV

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The only point we are trying to convey to you in a hundred different ways is that we are not saved by good works, but unto them. That’s Christianity, and it isn’t “another” gospel.

Take a break and think about it?
 
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A Freeman

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So you are of the view that Christians teach that these two commands, (which encapsulate the teachings of the Law and the prophets) are something that should be rejected?
Of course not. What is being shared, while there is still time for "Christians" to repent of their evil/sinful/criminal ways, is that the two great Commandments restated in Mark 12:29-31 -- upon which all the others hang (Matt. 22:37-40) -- are sadly not kept by "Christians".

John 14:15-24
14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I Live, ye shall live also.
14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Jude saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will obey my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
14:24 He that loveth me not obeyeth not my sayings: and the Truth which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

1 John 3:7-10
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.




Ephesians 2:10 KJV

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The only point we are trying to convey to you in a hundred different ways is that we are not saved by good works, but unto them.
And no matter how many different ways any of you attempt to package it, what you are conveying unwittingly or otherwise is DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD.

No "Christian", nor any one else on this planet has EVER been saved (John 3:13). Let that be the sobering thought that it should be, IF you can find the humility to admit your error, lovingly pointed out for everyone's benefit (including yours).


That’s Christianity, and it isn’t “another” gospel.
Christ's Teachings are all about obedience to God (DOING what God defines as good), which leads to LIFE, exactly as it says throughout the Old Covenant, New Covenant and also the Koran (Quran).

Christianity teaches the exact opposite: disobedience to God, regardless of how cleverly packaged "Christians" may believe that other 'gospel' to be. Just look at how you and all of the other "Christians" posting within this thread argue against keeping The Law.

What does a ridiculous, self-contradictory statement like: "...we are not saved by good works, but unto them" even mean? Either one does good, Godly works or they do evil, satanic works. It's one or the other, and we can know where someone is coming from based upon the works that they DO (Matt. 7:16-20).


Take a break and think about it?
Why not take your own advice, as if your real, eternal life depended upon it (which it does)?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Christians on this thread are not arguing against keeping the law, but over the sufficiency of law-keeping for salvation. I know it’s subtle and I think TWHOFTF makes it hard for you to understand the distinction.

Examining the passage from Ephesians, there is another aspect you might not have picked up on:

Ephesians 2:10 KJV

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

At what point does a person become the workmanship of God? Who is the “we” in this passage?
 
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Do Christians need to be circumcised?
A bit confused as to why this question is (again) ignored.

As a young kid I used to think "checkmate!" just before I lost my queen, so I've learned not to sell the skin before I've shot the bear, but ...

Are you waiting for feedback from your JAH guru before you can answer this? It's a simple yes or no question.
 

A Freeman

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Christians on this thread are not arguing against keeping the law,
Why aren't the "Christians" advocating keeping The Law/Commandments of God then?

but over the sufficiency of law-keeping for salvation. I know it’s subtle and I think TWHOFTF makes it hard for you to understand the distinction.
And where do we find Christ making such a subtle "distinction"? Or is this more of another 'gospel' that calls itself "Christianity", that is blinding YOU to the fact/truth that all of these subtle distinctions are man-made doctrines and traditions, and NOT found in the actual Gospel accounts?

Mark 10:17-31
10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit Eternal Life?
10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou ME good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
10:19 Thou knowest the COMMANDments, Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the "poor" (purse - kitty), and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into The Kingdom of God!
10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into The Kingdom of God!
10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into The Kingdom of God.
10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come Eternal Life.
10:31 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first.


Examining the passage from Ephesians, there is another aspect you might not have picked up on:
Ephesians 2:10 KJV

For we are His (God's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ordained that we should walk in them (i.e. DO them - good works as God defines good works in His Law).

At what point does a person become the workmanship of God?
When they learn to trust and obey God for and in everything, as little children trust in their parents for everything and learn obedience.

Simply put, we are the children of Whom/whom we obey. If we repent, and turn back to God in obedience to Him, then we are His Children. If we continue to obey Satan (sinning/breaking The Law/Commandments of God), then we are his (Satan's) children (John 8:44-45 KJV).

We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey.

Who is the “we” in this passage?
The "Elect" (the true ekklesia, which the gates of hell will never prevail against). Those who are, or will be walking WITH God and His Christ, DOING God's Will.
 
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A Freeman

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A bit confused as to why this question is (again) ignored.

As a young kid I used to think "checkmate!" just before I lost my queen, so I've learned not to sell the skin before I've shot the bear, but ...

Are you waiting for feedback from your JAH guru before you can answer this? It's a simple yes or no question.
When someone plays chess, they learn it's necessary to see their opponents possible moves before they make them. The more moves ahead one can see, the higher the likelihood of success.

So why are you asking about the requirements for circumcision when you can look up what it says about circumcision in The Law for yourself (Gen. 17:11; see also Acts 7:8)? So that you can roll out another of your misinterpretations of the letters of Paul (e.g. Romans 2 or Ephesians 2)? Or another one of your totally deceitful and illogical analogies?

What does The Law say about it? How do you read it?

Physical circumcision, like most if not all physical lessons, is meant to teach specific spiritual lessons. In this case, people need to learn to circumcise their hearts and minds, so that they are less sensitive to the words and actions of others, i.e. slow to anger (James 1:19-26).
 
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When someone plays chess, they learn it's necessary to see their opponents possible moves before they make them. The more moves ahead one can see, the higher the likelihood of success.

So why are you asking about the requirements for circumcision when you can look up what it says about circumcision in The Law for yourself (Gen. 17:11; see also Acts 7:8)? So that you can roll out another of your misinterpretations of the letters of Paul (e.g. Romans 2 or Ephesians 2)? Or another one of your totally deceitful and illogical analogies?

What does The Law say about it? How do you read it?

Physical circumcision, like most if not all physical lessons, is meant to teach specific spiritual lessons. In this case, people need to learn to circumcise their hearts and minds, so that they are less sensitive to the words and actions of others, i.e. slow to anger (James 1:19-26).
Paul made it pretty clear that (physical) circumcision was irrelevant. How is Paul misinterpreted?

And what did Jesus say about circumcision?
 

A Freeman

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Paul made it pretty clear that (physical) circumcision was irrelevant. How is Paul misinterpreted?
The letters of Paul are frequently misinterpreted by "Christians" to make it appear as if they somehow contradict the True Teachings of Christ, particularly concerning the promotion of the pagan 3=1 "trinity" doctrine/tradition and the promotion of the "no one can allegedly keep The Law, so why try" doctrine/tradition.

Physical circumcision itself is of no great importance, which is why your question about it was seen as contentious and ignored.

And what did Jesus say about circumcision?
Thomas 9:3 His disciples asked Him: Is circumcision profitable or not? He said to them: If it were profitable, their father would beget them circumcised from their mother. But the true circumcision in Spirit has become profitable in every way.
 
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The letters of Paul are frequently misinterpreted by "Christians" to make it appear as if they somehow contradict the True Teachings of Christ, particularly concerning the promotion of the pagan 3=1 "trinity" doctrine/tradition and the promotion of the "no one can allegedly keep The Law, so why try" doctrine/tradition.

Physical circumcision itself is of no great importance, which is why your question about it was seen as contentious and ignored.


Thomas 9:3 His disciples asked Him: Is circumcision profitable or not? He said to them: If it were profitable, their father would beget them circumcised from their mother. But the true circumcision in Spirit has become profitable in every way.
You're being awfully ambiguous.

On one hand, both Paul and Jesus say circumcision is irrelevant. On the other hand, circumcision is mandatory by Law (Leviticus 12:3).

You say physical circumcision is of no great importance (what is "great" here?) while proclaiming we should follow the Law of the Torah to a T.

(Hence the completely valid remarks of @Lyfe and @Red Sky at Morning )

So how do you reconcile these two positions?
 

Lyfe

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Why would anyone cherry-pick what to obey of God's Law, knowing that the wages of sin are certain DEATH (Ezek. 18; Rom. 6:23)?
You're being awfully ambiguous.

On one hand, both Paul and Jesus say circumcision is irrelevant. On the other hand, circumcision is mandatory by Law (Leviticus 12:3).

You say physical circumcision is of no great importance (what is "great" here?) while proclaiming we should follow the Law of the Torah to a T.

(Hence the completely valid remarks of @Lyfe and @Red Sky at Morning )

So how do you reconcile these two positions?
Usually they want to have you observe the feasts and various days along with the dietary restrictions.
 

The Sojourner

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If salvation were by keeping the law then there wouldn't be hope for any of us since one sin is enough to bring a guilty verdict and condemnation. We are only saved and justified by being found in Christ. That's it.

One sin brings a guilty verdict. One sin is a violation of the entire law. Think about it. If you don't think that God could point out sin in your life then you are deceived. If he revealed to you your sin you would be overwhelmed.
Yes, all are guilty, but it says the following in the book of Ezekiel -

Ezekiel
18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My Statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord "I AM": [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?
18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth inequity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
18:25 Yet ye say, The Way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O "House of Israel"; Is not My Way equal? are not your ways unequal?
18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth inequity, and dieth in them; for his inequity that he hath done shall he die.
18:27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
18:29 Yet saith the "House of Israel", The Way of the Lord is not equal. O "House of Israel", are not My Ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O "House of Israel", every one according to his ways, saith the Lord "I AM". Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so inequity shall not be your ruin.
18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O "House of Israel"?
18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord "I AM": wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

So, if you made a mistake, then that doesn't mean at all that it is a reason to stop and give up.

No, it says that you should repent, and turn to righteousness, and that then your sins will not be mentioned, because the Lord does not take pleasure in the wicked that they should die.

It says the Lord allows time and grants opportunity for repentance.

So, it doesn't say Christians no longer have to obey the Law, it says to repent from sins like Jesus said to people.

Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand... Go and sin no more... etc.

But if one does not know what sin is, it can be confusing. The Law tells us what sin is, as does the Holy Spirit, so we can know. But because we may not always listen to the Holy Spirit, and can deceive ourselves, The Law is there to help us not to have doubts of what is considered right and what is wrong. It is specific and goes into detail, so we can know without doubt, and then by coming to know what the The Law says, we also learn to identify and know better what the Holy Spirit is teaching us from within, despite Satan trying to see if he can deceive us by pretending to be our own voice in our heads.

So if you throw away The Law, then you step out into danger, because then there is no fail-safe for you to fall back on and be able to check if you are allowing yourself to be deceived by Satan, or are deceiving yourself.

The Law backs up what the Holy Spirit is saying, so this can be avoided.
 
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elsbet's cat ^. .^

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. . .​

No "Christian", nor any one else on this planet has EVER been saved (John 3:13).
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven, [even]
the Son of Man which is from heaven.

This says nothing about Salvation.
Is this the proof text John Hill has given his followers?

. . .​
 

The Sojourner

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You're being awfully ambiguous.

On one hand, both Paul and Jesus say circumcision is irrelevant. On the other hand, circumcision is mandatory by Law (Leviticus 12:3).

You say physical circumcision is of no great importance (what is "great" here?) while proclaiming we should follow the Law of the Torah to a T.

(Hence the completely valid remarks of @Lyfe and @Red Sky at Morning )

So how do you reconcile these two positions?
If we look at Paul's summery in 1 Corinthians 7:19:


1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of The Commandments of God [is crucial].

That means keeping the Moral Law (referred to as "the Commandments") is what is important (crucial).

The ceremonial aspects of The Law were only there to reinforce the keeping of the Moral Law, until Christ came (the ceremonial Law was a schoolteacher to bring men unto Christ).

Since Christ came, the Moral Law is reinforced by the guiding of the Holy Spirit and through following Christ's Teachings and Example of self-sacrifice, that replaced substitute animal-sacrifices for sins, that was part of the ceremonial aspects of The Law.

But there is no change whatsoever to the Moral Law, i.e. what is moral, what is right vs. what is wrong is and always will be the same.

i.e. It wasn't ok to steal then, as it isn't ok to steal now, as it never will be ok to steal.

What Paul was explaining to people can therefore also be stated as follows:

Obeying the Moral Law is what counts. i.e. Keeping the Moral Law (the Commandments of God) is what it important and it is crucial. (1 Corinthians 7-19)

That's the point Paul was making.

That the Moral Law has not been done away with and that it remains forever, is made crystal clear by the Scripture.
 
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