I agree that those who claim to be of God and in Christ should have an ongoing repentance and be transformed and regenerated. The Christian tradition of being free and living how one wants is a heresy against the entire Word of God and against everything Christ and his apostles lived and died for. There's not a single Christian who can convince me that they encountered God almighty, yet are still the same corrupt, flesh-driven people as before. This is a blasphemey against God because he is a loving Father and he chastises every son he receives. If a so called "Christian" is still living in an unrepentant, unchanged, sin-led lifestyle, then it's not because of God's love and grace and mercy at all.
Thank-you. Agreed.
The more likely reason is that they aren't a legitimate convert.
What we can know with absolute certainty is that anyone who remains unrepentant (refuses to stop sinning and start keeping The Law/Commandments of God) has
NOT been born again from above, of God (
John 3:3-7;
Rom. 8:5-8).
1 John 3:4-10
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
This is explained in detail in Hebrews chapter 12. Jesus fulfilled the law with the purpose of destroying the works of the devil.
Which can only happen
IF people follow Christ's Example, and likewise fulfill The Law and our covenant promise to keep it.
He didn't die so his followers could continue to live in their same sinful pattern of life. He came so that we could have life and have it more adundantly and he died to save us FROM our sins, not so we could take his sacrifice in vain and continue in the very sin that he had to lower himself lower than the angels, down to our level and then die for.
Agreed. Well said.
So I agree with you on your 2nd point however I disagree with your other 2 points. The doctrine of the Trinity didn't start with Christians or Catholics, it started all the way back in Genesis. The corrupt religious people have watered it down to create confusion. As early as Genesis 1:2 and 1:26 the Holy Spirit and The Son are mentioned.
There is no direct mention of a 3=1 deity anywhere in the Bible, including Genesis 1:2 and Genesis 1:26, nor can it be inferred. It is a Babylonian construct that was handed down to the Romans, who are the direct descendants of the Babylonians, and then incorporated into "Christianity" via Roman Catholicism.
It's understood that people want to read into the Scripture things that aren't there, particularly after they have been indoctrinated to believe such things. However,
ONE God actually means
ONE; it doesn't mean 3-in-1, or 1-in-3 or anything other than
ONE.
1 John 5:7 says there are 3 that keep record in Heaven and those 3 are one.
The notorious addition to which you refer is referred to as "the Johannine comma". It doesn't appear in any of the original/ancient Greek sources for the New Covenant/Testament.
en.wikipedia.org
“5:7 For there are three that testify, 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.” ‑‑NET Bible
bible.org
Does 1 John 5:7 have added text that is called the Comma Johanneum and was it part of the early Greek manuscripts or was it added at a later date?
www.trinitytruth.org
In order for all three of them to keep record, it means they existed before Heaven was created.
As above please. the "Johannine comma" was added to 1 John 5:6-8. Specifically this portion of verses 7 and 8: ...(“in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.
5:8 And there are three that testify on earth”)...
If Jesus is not God, then the Bible should mention a point where he was created. It doesn't.
Actually it does, in multiple places. The Bible specifically provides us with the details of Jesus (the mortal Son of Man) birth in Bethlehem to the virgin Mary. It also specifically provides us with when Christ (the immortal Son of God) was created. Christ was the very first creation of God, after which God created everything else by Christ, thereby teaching Christ everything in the process (
John 5:19-20).
Colossians 1:12-15
1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be sharers of the inheritance of the holy people in Light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into The Kingdom of His dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
an "image" is a likeness
"invisible" means something that cannot be seen with human eyes (everyone saw Jesus)
"born" means brought into existence
"firstborn" means the first offspring brought into existence
a "creature" is created
Hebrews 1:1-6
1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by The Word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a Son?
1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
It says in Revelation that he is the beginning of the creation of God, which coincides with what Colossians 1:16-17 says.
Agreed. And both are telling us that Christ was the first creation of God.
Philippians 2:6-11 explains how Jesus Christ humbled himself in submission to his Father.
Which provides us with further proof that Christ (nor Jesus) is
NOT God; Christ's Father is His God, as Christ Himself stated multiple times. To whom would God submit?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and your Father; and [to] MY God, and your God.
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in The Temple of MY God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY God, and the name of the city of MY God, [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY God: and [I will write upon him] my NEW name.
The problem that I think makes you disagree is because Christ always obeyed his Father.
Is it a problem though to recognize that Christ is
ALWAYS subservient and obedient to His Father (God)? Did Christ not pray to His Father? And cry out to Father from the cross?
Just because Christ submits to his Father it doesn't make him any less God
Who are you attempting to convince of this? God does not submit to anyone; everyone should submit to Father, exactly as Christ does. There would be no other way to do God's Will.
Matthew 6:9-10
6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: OUR Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be THY name.
6:10
Thy Kingdom come. Thy Will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
the same way that a wife submitting to her husband doesn't make her any less human.
Men and women are not considered equals in the Bible, and neither are God and His Firstborn/Eldest Son, the One Whom God anointed (Messiah/Christ).
We were made in God's image and just like how Christ submits to his Father, we as men are to submit to Christ, women to us, then children to both parents, like the Holy Spirit does for Father and Christ.
We (the spiritual-Beings/Souls) were made in God's image, just as Christ was made in God's image. Christ submits to His Father because His Father
IS God. And yes, the woman should submit to the man, just as the man submits to Christ, following Christ's Example of submitting to God.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that
the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and
the head of Christ [is] God.
As for your 3rd point, Jesus spoke as with one having authority and several times Jesus said "you've heard it said of old ... BUT I say this." Jesus also said "A new commandment I give you, to love one another." So from a readers perspective, it does appear that Jesus IS making new commandments and superceding his Father.
No, Christ
NEVER superseded His Father in any way.
The Law states the following:
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but
thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the "I AM".
Christ gave us a "new" commandment:
John 13:34
A new COMMANDment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
What made it "new" to us was that we had previously never kept the Commandment previously given to love one another, nor had we ever had The Example Christ set for us doing so. It very obviously was not some new doctrine.
John 7:16-17
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said,
My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17
If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
If Jesus is/was allegedly God, then how can God's doctrine not belong to Jesus? And further, if Jesus is/was allegedly God, then how could Jesus not be speaking of Himself?
The truth is, Jesus has every right to make new commandments because he and his Father are one and he was directly involved in the handing down of the stone tablets to Moses. Look at his new commandment to love God and neighbor. Loving God with all your heart soul and mind covers the first tablet given to Moses (the first four commandments) and loving your neighbor as yourself covers the second tablet (the last 6 commandments.)
Father did send Christ to deliver the stone tablets and the scrolls containing the first five books of the Bible to Moses, just as Father later sent Christ to incarnate Jesus, to show us The Way in person.
Exodus 23:20-23
23:20 Behold,
I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in The Way (
ch. 18:20;
Deut. 11:28;
31:29;
John 14:6), and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
23:21 Beware of him, and
obey his voice (
Mark 9:7), provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name [is] in him.
23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23:23 For Mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
Mark 9:7 And there was a "Cloud" that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the "Cloud", saying,
This is my beloved Son: hear him.
This is the best example I can give of Jesus fulfilling the law and teaching us how to live perfectly like him. If Jesus is not God, he has no authority to tell anyone to do anything.
But that isn't what the Scripture actually says, is it?
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying,
All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth.
John 5:30-31
5:30
I can of mine own self do NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the Will of the Father which hath sent me.
5:31
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
I just disagree with you on those points but you've definitely brought a lot of truth here in this thread and I pray it will inspire Christians to be more like the Christ they claim to love.
Thank-you. Hopefully so. The reason for creating this thread was to help fellow believers by showing that despite the indoctrination received in the churches, most if not all of the core beliefs of "Christianity" are not found in the Gospel accounts. We should all be following Christ's Example by His Words rather than by what others may say about Him.
