Infinityloop
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- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
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- 2,622
What is funny though is that the doctrine of "The Seven Spirits of God" from St John of Patmos' vision didn't become the core Christian doctrine At least that was explicit.
You seem like a dedicated student. Don't just believe everything they teach you at University, though. It's good to keep an open mind to other possibilities existing as well.As someone who did etymology as an elective course in university this year . . . No, it's not.
That's a good one to start with. Pardon, I don't have a complete list of them with me now. It's been some time (years).Which insertions? Everyone knows 1 John 5:7-8 was a late add-in. Which others are you referring to?
No, but the sources I gave show that the statement that there was no reference whatsoever to either the Trinity or the deity of Christ prior to Nicea is a lie. I also provided sources to make clearer what actually took place there -while sources are scant people tend to be very quick on the draw to say the Trinity was a Nicean invention. Only now the later narrative is that its pagan. But I sure have missed your arrogant replies.You are having problems (like others) making distinctions between the Trinity and various heresies.
Calling Jesus a deity itself is certainly not the Trinity, the Trinity is a specific doctrine, other doctrines (like Sabellianism, Arianism, etc).
You (and others) seem to want to favor anachronism over both properly representing your own doctrine and properly representing the beliefs of the founding fathers of the early church. This does not surprise me.
No, the Holy Spirit is right there in the Old Testament and it's not a part of God, it's more a verb than a noun.
Speaking of the supposed 'deity of Jesus' and the doctrine of the Trinity are two completely different things, so is the very diverse amount of views on Jesus, Christology and doctrine and general prior to the Catholic Church.No, but the sources I gave show that the statement that there was no reference whatsoever to either the Trinity or the deity of Christ prior to Nicea is a lie.
Well it was.people tend to be very quick on the draw to say the Trinity was a Nicean invention.
Arrogance? I'm not an exclusivist and I don't believe in a concept of God that can't be demonstrated in reality. I don't believe in "a mystery" over a 'reality'. I don't think emotional obsession qualifies truth or justifies prejudice or even arguing, in actuality.But I sure have missed your arrogant replies.
It'd be interested to see your results from doing a proper textual analysis where the "Holy Spirit" in the New Testament is actually mentioned. See how it both does and doesn't contrast for it's mentions in the Old Testament, then reflect on specifying this thing as a distinct part of God is actually a logical conclusion.The Greek in the NT refers to the Holy Spirit as a person - Which, if you're familiar with Koine Greek makes for exceptionally poor grammar. It must have been a deliberate linguistic choice on the part of the writers.
I'm weary about that but a soft science like Linguistics is different. Even from a common sense angle it just makes no sense -you can't compare a noun ending indicative of grammatical class to a word that means an entirely different thing in the same language -both are Latin and the latter means a "ring".You seem like a dedicated student. Don't just believe everything they teach you at University, though. It's good to keep an open mind to other possibilities existing as well.
Ok but That site doesn't give any scriptural insertions. They claim people worship the Holy Spirit and I'm yet to come across anyone who does that. They also claim that the Trinity is the origin of the 666 mark of the beast. So, yeah.That's a good one to start with. Pardon, I don't have a complete list of them with me now. It's been some time (years).
This site (not affiliated) has probably most of them, from what I've seen of them, and gets into the subject at quite some length (although I can't vouch for if they get everything right)
http://www.trinitytruth.org
Like I already said, all I did was provide evidence that counter to what a lot of sentiment in this thread would have people believe, such ideas were not suddenly appearing after the Nicean council. The fact that such ideas even existed before that time is enough to strike out the idea that it is categorically incorrect.Speaking of the supposed 'deity of Jesus' and the doctrine of the Trinity are two completely different things, so is the very diverse amount of views on Jesus, Christology and doctrine and general prior to the Catholic Church.
No, it wasn't. And of you actually looked at the sources I gave you would see that the council was the attempt to standardize what had already been in circulation for many years.Well it was.
The phrase "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" is not the same as professing belief in the Trinity, again, anachronism.
Once we reach around 200CE we have lots of different doctrinal experimentations, none of them are the Trinity, I AM aware of them.
Even when it comes to the Nicene Creed itself, even that is vague without it's Church context explicitly explicated:
"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father."
(Just remember the Trinity is "a mystery", that's literally what it's called.)
Your arrogance in character, not faith.Arrogance? I'm not an exclusivist and I don't believe in a concept of God that can't be demonstrated in reality. I don't believe in "a mystery" over a 'reality'. I don't think emotional obsession qualifies truth or justifies prejudice or even arguing, in actuality.
The point is that the Holy Spirit is not coded in the language as an inanimate being. The Greeks had a variety of terms to refer to spirits and they ALWAYS took on a neutral descriptor. Like I said, this was either done intentionally or the writers were just very bad at Greek. Everything that comes after is an attempt to establish exactly who the Holy Spirit is. And I think you have my line of reasoning confused for stringent promotion -when all I am attempting to do is point out that contrary to the belief that there is no scriptural or historical basis for a belief in some kind of trinity, there actually could be. Based on whichever way people are led they can either choose to accept or reject it and fortunately that issue is a separate one from salvation.It'd be interested to see your results from doing a proper textual analysis where the "Holy Spirit" in the New Testament is actually mentioned. See how it both does and doesn't contrast for it's mentions in the Old Testament, then reflect on specifying this thing as a distinct part of God is actually a logical conclusion.
Incorrect, the Trinity was the solution created to the problems in all previous versions of Christology, it was not implemented democratically of course, it certainly wasn't revealed by God itself either. The funny thing though is that it's only caused more problems than any of the previous Christologies ever did.Like I already said, all I did was provide evidence that counter to what a lot of sentiment in this thread would have people believe, such ideas were not suddenly appearing after the Nicean council. The fact that such ideas even existed before that time is enough to strike out the idea that it is categorically incorrect.
Yes, and I already know these sources, I'm not unread.No, it wasn't. And of you actually looked at the sources I gave you would see that the council was the attempt to standardize what had already been in circulation for many years.
You mean my insistence on reason over your expectation of just arbitrarily agreeing over something. I don't know what this has to even do with character, you haven't talked to me enough to know what my "character" is as a person.Your arrogance in character, not faith.
As I already said: It'd be interested to see your results from doing a proper textual analysis where the "Holy Spirit" in the New Testament is actually mentioned.The point is that the Holy Spirit is not coded in the language as an inanimate being. The Greeks had a variety of terms to refer to spirits and they ALWAYS took on a neutral descriptor. Like I said, this was either done intentionally or the writers were just very bad at Greek. Everything that comes after is an attempt to establish exactly who the Holy Spirit is. And I think you have my line of reasoning confused for stringent promotion -when all I am attempting to do is point out that contrary to the belief that there is no scriptural or historical basis for a belief in some kind of trinity, there actually could be. Based on whichever way people are led they an either choose to accept or reject it and fortunately that issue is a separate one from salvation.
And you got this from the available sources discussing what actually happened there?Incorrect, the Trinity was the solution created to the problems in all previous versions of Christology, it was not implemented democratically of course, it certainly wasn't revealed by God itself either. The funny thing though is that it's only caused more problems than any of the previous Christologies ever did.
What you're doing is saying "look, this guy had this idea, and this other guy had this other idea, and this other guy had this other idea" then you're missing the logical step in your statement of "and all of that proves this completely other idea later on, so I was right!". It's not logical, you're trying to find things which are not there.
Well then I don't know where youn get your assertations from. Just as you so boldly claimed that Ignatius never believed in the deity of Jesus or referred to him as "God" which turned out to be incorrect anyway. Maybe it's just a difference of sources issue.Yes, and I already know these sources, I'm not unread.
No, I'm talking about the tone of your replies. You seem happy enough to judge and categorise other people's beliefs/faiths without properly taking to them so I apply the same metrics to your person.You mean my insistence on reason over your expectation of just arbitrarily agreeing over something. I don't know what this has to even do with character, you haven't talked to me enough to know what my "character" is as a person.
Or you could do it yourself then if you're so invested in it. I've already looked at it with the intention to learn if there is an allowance for the Holy Spirit to be termed some sort of "person" or if it was completely out of the realm of context. You can even create another thread to educate the ignorant Trinitarian Christians if you come to a different conclusion. Have fun. Take the last reply if you want, I have to go now anyway.As I already said: It'd be interested to see your results from doing a proper textual analysis where the "Holy Spirit" in the New Testament is actually mentioned.
These believe-it-or-you-will-not-go-into-heaven tactics are evil?Sites like these... -
"If anyone tries to tell you that Jesus is not God in the flesh close your ears because anyone who believes that blasphemy will not enter into Heaven. Jesus said if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. If Jesus wasn’t God how could He die for our sins?
Not only your sins or my sins, but everyone in the whole world. God said that He is the only Savior. Can God lie? Scripture clearly says there is only one God so you must believe the Trinity."
https://biblereasons.com/jesus-is-god/
It's saddening to see; because they (and they may be well meaning people) immediately right off the bat, scare people to not even dare to think or be rational, because "anyone who believes that blasphemy will not enter heaven."
This fear tactic has it's origin in the Athenasian Creed (evil roman catholicism).
They may think that they are doing the right thing, but the truth is they are helping no-one and causing great harm.
Thank-you for linking your references, so everyone can see you're being dishonest again. Neither of those comments were made toward my "opponents" as you've called them.
When others are dishonest, it's pointed out to them, just as it's been pointed out to you, with the facts that illustrate the dishonesty. Most of what you have said in this thread has been dishonest, whether you realize it or not.You call us dishonest while you deliberately avoid answering direct questions because you're afraid it will shake the foundations of your delusional belief. Yet here you are complaining about dishonesty and ad hominems.
Except it wasn't really ignored, was it? Did you bother to read the same post you linked above about this being a lunatic asylum?You said "Christ is not God." You go on to say "Christ is the Lord of Lords." I show you Tanakh scripture (from YOUR king of king's bible) that says "God is Lord of Lords." Therefore, according to your authoritative scripture, Christ must be God. When pressed on this matter, you choose to ignore it.
Because it is an overt fabrication filled with lies that is not found in any canonical text for that very reason. How do we know with absolute certainty it is a FAKE (that was written after Peter's death)?You said there was no Gospel of Peter. I showed you the Gospel of Peter. You ignored it.
It's the Scriptures that tell us Peter was never in Rome because Christ COMMANDED Peter not to go to Rome (Matt. 10:6).You said Peter was never in Rome. I showed you the Acts of Peter said otherwise. You ignored it.
Again, it's the Scriptures that tell us Peter was NOT crucified upside down. In fact it was Christ Himself Who prophesied How Peter would die of old age (John 21:17-19). Are you really choosing to believe your FAKE ANTICHRIST MANUSCRIPT over Christ? That's your choice of course, but don't expect anyone else to believe such obvious lies.You said Peter wasn't crucified upside down. I showed you the Acts of Peter said otherwise. You ignored it.
Because it had already been answered in post #571.You claim the Pharisees fabricated man-made traditions that were in violation of the Law. I asked you which. You ignore it.
That question was answered too, without acquiescing to your evil game.I asked you a direct question if a word could exist without a thought. You saw light shining through the crannies of your antitrinitarian prison and you closed your eyes and looked away.
Sometimes people don't realize they're being dishonest and thus need to have it pointed out to them, for everyone's benefit.Then you have the audacity to call others dishonest.
Matthew 7:1-4You must be the biggest hypocritical inflated ego I've seen in a long time. Bottom of the pit is where you're at.
Not when they are true.These believe-it-or-you-will-not-go-into-heaven tactics are evil?
From The Way Home or Face the Fire:
Please accept this Book as a gift to ALL of you, without preference; forget your superstitions and religions, unite yourselves into one brotherhood, become“children of God” (by adoption) and bring lasting peace on Earth, and have good-will towards ALL men. PLEASE!!
It is your ONLY chance to survive.
If, after having read and DIGESTED its contents, you choose to disbelieve it, that will have been your own decision and you will have my heartfelt pity, because, very soon, as a result of your decision, you will first be tortured, by what you have done, then burn and die on the Last-Day, as you have been promised and continually reminded of, for thousands of years. You will have missed your LAST chance to survive execution, and it will have been your own FREE choice.
They can't all be true is correct; because none of them are.
I thought you’d say this. It’s one thing to claim there’s a truth. It’s another to claim you possess it.Not when they are true.
By that standard, Jesus is a criminal.What else would one call a planet where EVERYONE is in open rebellion against our Creator despite having a death-sentence hanging over our heads? We call ourselves "sinners", but a sinner is, in fact, a CRIMINAL.
We are all sinners (Rom. 3:10). Sin is breaking The Law (1 John 3:4). Breaking The Law is a crime. People who commit crimes are criminals. Hopefully you're following along so you don't ask to have this repeated to you later.
Why must you continually tell lies? Is it intentional or don't you know when you're doing it?By that standard, Jesus is a criminal.
Did Jesus break the Law or not?Why must you continually tell lies? Is it intentional or don't you know when you're doing it?
Your "self"/ego/human may see others pointing out your penchant for telling and promoting lies as an attack, but in truth, your spirit-Being (Soul) should appreciate the correction.
Prince Michael/Christ did NOT fight against Himself in the war that took place in heaven roughly 6000 years ago (Rev. 12:7-9), and thus was NOT banished to the earth for treason against God, as Satan and his angels were.
Revelation 12:7-12
12:7 And there WAS war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the Earth, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and The Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their (human) lives unto the death (John 12:25).
12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the "earth" and of the "sea"! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time (6,000 years).
Prince Michael/Christ came to Earth VOLUNTARILY 2000 years ago, incarnating the body of Jesus (John 1:14) to serve as a flesh and blood example of how we all need to be, to be able to go home, to heaven.
It should therefore be self-evident that Jesus+Christ was NOT an inmate in this lunatic asylum prison reform school for the criminally insane, but instead was the only one Who's actually sane, and thus able to teach the rest of us (hence His position as The Master/Teacher).
Please think for a moment how it must be for someone who is totally sane and striving to save others to be completely surrounded by lunatics, who don't know the difference between right and wrong, even though they're convinced in their own minds that they do (Deut. 12:8), and thus refuse to listen to common-sense and reasoning. That should hopefully explain why everyone but a very small group were actively seeking to murder Jesus. And even within that small group one betrayed Him.
This is what Christ faces each and every time He has come here. And yet He selflessly does what's needed to save those precious few who truly believe Him (not just "in" Him) and actually strive to DO as we've been COMMANDED to do - keep the Commandments of God (Father's Law).
So no, Jesus wasn't a lunatic by the ONLY Standard which is applies: DOING Father's Will, which begins with keeping His Commandments. Jesus is, in truth, the bench-mark that all of us must eventually achieve before being allowed to leave this prison planet.
Everything that's been shared in this thread has been done for everyone's benefit, including yours, to help free YOU from your own irrational mind. If you would stop allowing your "self" to get in the way, more productive discussions could follow.
The choice, as always, is yours to make.
God Bless.
Truer words have not been spoken.From The Way Home or Face the Fire:
Please accept this Book as a gift to ALL of you, without preference; forget your superstitions and religions, unite yourselves into one brotherhood, become“children of God” (by adoption) and bring lasting peace on Earth, and have good-will towards ALL men. PLEASE!!
It is your ONLY chance to survive.
If, after having read and DIGESTED its contents, you choose to disbelieve it, that will have been your own decision and you will have my heartfelt pity, because, very soon, as a result of your decision, you will first be tortured, by what you have done, then burn and die on the Last-Day, as you have been promised and continually reminded of, for thousands of years. You will have missed your LAST chance to survive execution, and it will have been your own FREE choice.
There's no contradiction. Your conclusion is drawn from non-sequiturs. Look:Because it is an overt fabrication filled with lies that is not found in any canonical text for that very reason. How do we know with absolute certainty it is a FAKE (that was written after Peter's death)?
BECAUSE IT CONTRADICTS CHRIST, WHICH IS ANTICHRIST/CALLING HIM A LIAR.
Your scriptural reference:It's the Scriptures that tell us Peter was never in Rome because Christ COMMANDED Peter not to go to Rome (Matt. 10:6).
Really ... "satanic nonsense" (smh). The Knowledge of Good and Evil from a slave of the Law in all its glory! You're the living proof that people's minds are blinded in the reading of the Old Testament (2 Cor 3:14).Why would any rationally-minded person not ignore a bunch of blatant lies from yet another FAKE ANTICHRIST MANUSCRIPT? Do you really think it somehow isn't dishonest of you to promote such obvious satanic nonsense, that not only contradicts Christ and His Commands, but also contradicts other parts of Scripture, AND contradicts the available physical evidence as well?
That same Eusebius, in that same book, wrote that Peter was crucified at Rome. See below.Eusebius, in his 4th-century History of the Church, writes "The so-called Acts of Peter, however, and the Gospel which bears his name, and the Preaching and the Apocalypse, as they are called, we know have not been universally accepted, because no ecclesiastical writer, ancient or modern, has made use of testimonies drawn from them."
http://www.bible-researcher.com/eusebius.html
Your scriptural reference:Again, it's the Scriptures that tell us Peter was NOT crucified upside down. In fact it was Christ Himself Who prophesied How Peter would die of old age (John 21:17-19). Are you really choosing to believe your FAKE ANTICHRIST MANUSCRIPT over Christ? That's your choice of course, but don't expect anyone else to believe such obvious lies.