On the Trinity:

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Trinitarians admit that there is no way to understand the Trinity and it's impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.

The disgusting Christians at Christianity.com says this...
All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic. Those words may sound harsh, but they represent the judgment of ...


This is the doctrine in a nutshell...

Basic Definition: Christians worship one God who eternally exists in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, all of whom are fully God, all of whom are equal. Jesus is both God the Father and the holy spirit. The holy spirit is both God and Jesus. God is both the holy spirit and Jesus. Etc. The three are all knowing, all powerful, and everywhere. (Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent)

Then, they illogically go on to say Jesus is not God, Jesus is not the holy spirit, the holy spirit is not Jesus, the holy spirit is not God, etc. I'm not kidding, as you will see in the author's page in the link below

It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion....and that's the way the devil wanted it!
Trinity is right up there with pre-trib with fabricated and contradictory teachings. Trinity is a Catholic doctrine devised in the 4th century. Yet Protestants who have accepted it have nothing good to say about Catholicism and even call Rome the whore of Babylon and a cult.

I've studied the doctrine enough and would put myself up to a debate with anyone on the subject of Trinity. The problem with blogs and forums is that my replies get removed and I get banned for being non-Trinitarian. Once they see they've been debunked, they send me on my way along with my replies. I have made my mind up on the Trinity doctrine.
I believe Jesus when he said the Father is greater. I believe him when he said he doesn't know the day or hour of his return. I believe him when he says he can do nothing on his own. I also believe him when he said blasphemy against him will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not. If they were the same person blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other. Other issues I have with Trinity is IF the holy spirit is a separate person "why doesn't the holy spirit have a name, and why isn't he found in or around the Throne of God?"


Here's a list of scriptures Trinitarians use to support the doctrine.
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
That verse simply states that Jesus existed before Abraham and nothing else.


Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
It's absurd to claim a co-equal trinity is implied and several trinitarians do not believe this verse identifies Jesus is God.

The issue here is punctuation. Paul did not use modern types of punctuation. It was added by Trinitarian translators wherever they wanted to prop up their already preconceived belief of the Trinity. The verse can be read like this...

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

That's another verse that's completely distorted by Trinitarians. The subject of the verse is, "him that is true." So let me clarify this for you.

The word 'even'..."EVEN in his Son Jesus Christ" is NOT in the original text. It was added by the KJV translators. The word IN..."even IN his Son Jesus Christ" is the word BY AND WITH. It's worded like this in the interlinear and the way it should be understood...

We know the Son of God is come and has given us an understanding, that we may know the true one, (God the Father) and we are in him that is the true one, (God the Father) BY his son Jesus Christ.

What is being said here is that for us to be in “him that is true” we have to go through the Son, “him that is true” is the father, and the only way to be in the Father is through the son.

Jesus says the same thing in John 17:3...
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This is biggest trinitarian cop-out there is..
That is because Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man at the same time.


They answer questions by quoting a tenet of the Trinity doctrine. If Jesus is BOTH fully ‘God and fully man AT THE SAME TIME’, he would know the day and hour of his return. Either he knew, or he forgot, or he didn’t know!
Then they use Colossians 2:9 says: “For in him the whole fullness of deity DWELLS bodily.”


The word ‘dwells’ is in present tense, so Paul is referring to the resurrected Christ. The KJV uses the word ‘Godhead’ which is better translated ‘deity or divinity’ (or Godship) and it’s in the singular. That doesn’t support a triunity of beings. The present tense means Paul is speaking of the risen Christ. i.e. the spirit Christ received in the resurrection. This does NOT refer to deity of his earthly body. Neither does the word ‘deity’ infer a trinity or that Jesus is fully God the Father.
Colossians 2:9 means the abundance of divinity dwells in Christ resurrected heavenly body. God has given to Jesus all the plentitude and abundance of godship and mightiness so that he “is the head of all principality and power.” This in no way implies a Trinity.
(KJV)
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:”


Triitarians say Jesus is omniscient like God is in John 16:30.
John 16:30
“Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.”
The word ‘things’ is not in the original text, and the interlinear words it like this…
“We perceive that you perceive all.” The context is that his disciples finally saw and understood that Jesus came forth from the Father. They no longer doubted Jesus came from God and believed in his divine mission. By no means does this imply that Jesus is omniscient or that he’s God the Father. Jesus does NOT know everything God the Father knows.


We should also take into account Paul’s usage of the word ‘pas’ or ALL. ‘Pas’ is often used in a limited sense. It’s actually the word ‘individually.’ When it is used without the article, which is the case here, it means Jesus knows all types and a variety of things.” Note: “We are sure” and “knowest” are the same Greek word eidō.
It could be interpreted like this,

“Now we see (are convinced) that you perceive all types of things and no man needs to ask if we believe that you came from God.”
They quote Luke 2:52 in an attempt to prove Jesus is omniscient.
“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.”
That verse disproves the Trinity doctrine! If Jesus is fully God, there’s no need for him “TO INCREASE” in wisdom and stature! Trinitarians refuse to see their illogical contradictions.
The word ‘favor’ is the word GRACE. God’s good pleasure was upon Christ. If Christ was “fully God” there would be no need for him to “fully develop.” The most illogical presumption of Trinitarians is that Jesus is “fully God and fully man”.
One Trinitarian link makes these contradictory, illogical, and incoherent statements…
“But the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit and the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.”
…”that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.”
“With respect to his divine nature he knows all things and with respect to his human nature he does not know all things. Both of these things are true at the same time with respect to his distinct natures.”
As well as this….
“Jesus can say that the Father is greater than him in John 14:28 because he is fully human as we are and deity is greater than humanity.”
Those statement don’t confront or answer the questions non-trinitarians asked. Too often the trinitarian cop-out response is, “both of these things are true at the same time with respect to his distinct natures.” If that were true, then Jesus would know the day or hour of his return!
Jesus said, “The Father is Greater.” Either He IS or He ISN’T! Jesus said the Father IS greater. I believe Jesus!
Trinitarian's say....
“With respect to his divine nature, he is equal with God (Heb 1:2-3)”
KJV…

“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
That would be a fabrication of the Trinitarian KJV interpreters of the passage which has a host of mistakes. Look at the verse…
Hebrews 1:2-3 comes from Psalm 45:6 and is completely misrepresented in the KJV of Hebrews 1:8.
Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
The Jewish Publication Society reads it like this from the Septuagint…
“Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the scepter of thy kingdom.”
(which may be a reference to Solomon)
NOTE: In Hebrews 1:8, the words, “He saith” is an addition of the Trinitarian KJV translators.
In the interlinear it worded like this…

Yet toward the Son the Throne of you God is forever a rod of rigteousness of your kingdom.
Or like this…
Hebrews 1:8….

“But with regard to the son, the Throne of God is forever and ever a scepter of his righteousness.
That verse does not say Jesus is God NOR does it imply a Trinity whatsoever.
Jesus is never called “God the Son, and he is never called Almighty God.” 1 Corinthians 8 shows a distinction between God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord. They are NOT the same person or equal in any way….

For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 1 Corinthians 8:5,6.
Trinitarians quote Philippians 2:6-7 and John 1:1-3, 14.
QUOTE VERSE


Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Trinitarians can’t agree on the interpretation of that word or the passage. Most trinitarians admit the word "morphē" describes the EXTERNAL appearance or GLORY of Christ. NOT his internal attributes!

John 1:1-3, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
V. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


There are 70 ways to interpret John 1:1-3. The word "WORD" is 'saying.' Vines says, "a word or saying," also means, "an account which one gives by word of mouth.
It's more logical to interpret the word "WORD" as the speech of God, NOT JESUS!
According to Thayer's the word WITH means, "to the advantage of," toward, or "pertaining to" or "nearness at."
...and the word was with God.


Better understood like it is in the interlinear, "and God was the spoken word."
In the beginning was God's spoken Word, and the spoken word was to God's advantage, and God was the spoken word. V. 14 And the spoken word became flesh and dwelt among us.


Trinitarian's also use Joel 2:32 and Romans 10:13: to say Paul applies the divine name YHWH.
Romans 10:13 doesn’t use the word Yahweh. The word ‘Lord’ in Roman’s 10:13 is the word “kyrios” and it is NOT the Greek equivalent to Yahweh! To say such a thing is a complete Trinitarian fabrication. The context in Romans 10:13 is not Jesus but God the Father anyway. The word Lord/ kyrios is used 748 times in the NT and it implies a variety of ‘masters’. Like here in Mathew 10:24-25,


“The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord/kyrios. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord/kyrios.”

Jesus is called “god” in the bible. The KJV errantly capitalizes it. But, so is Satan, angels, Moses, people, the spiritual leaders of Israel, and pagan deities.

The true Jesus is isn’t fully God. He said so himself! He also said,
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Jesus also said,
“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”


“Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.”

Trinitarians also use John 5:18-19 to say Jesus is equal to God, but a simple lok at the text shows different.
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


The Jews sought to kill Jesus because he said God was his Father. Their presumption was by saying that their presecption was that Jesus was equating himself with God. But look at Jesus' reply, he rebukes them for saying such a thing...

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Verses that debunk the trinity that show the doctrine is a major contradiction...


John 20:17 “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."
John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

There is no trinity for many simple reasons. The 'Holy Spirit' as described by Trinitarians is not found in or around the throne of God in Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6 .

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
 





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Lisa

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#2
When you think of an egg, do you also think of it’s three parts that make up the egg? It has a shell, the whites and the yolk, different parts to an egg but still one egg. When we look at the trinity in this way, we can start to understand what God is talking about when He is 3 but 1.

Also, the trinity isn’t a catholic teaching, it is a Christian teaching and you can read the Bible to see that it’s true. To be a Christian, yep, you must believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirt, otherwise you can’t really call yourself a Christian.
 





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#3
It is Catholicism.

Zechariah 14:9 And the "I AM" shall be King over all the earth: in that Day shall there be one "I AM", and His name One [not a trinity].

Sura
5:76. They do blaspheme who say: "I AM" is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous Penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
5:77. Why turn they not to "I AM", and seek His forgiveness? For "I AM" is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
 





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#4
It is Catholicism.

Zechariah 14:9 And the "I AM" shall be King over all the earth: in that Day shall there be one "I AM", and His name One [not a trinity].

Sura
5:76. They do blaspheme who say: "I AM" is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous Penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
5:77. Why turn they not to "I AM", and seek His forgiveness? For "I AM" is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
The hebrew is YHWH which they don't even like to write, so they write Adonai which is translated into THE Lord.

9 wə·hā·yāh Yah·weh lə·me·leḵ ‘al- kāl- hā·’ā·reṣ; bay·yō·wm ha·hū, yih·yeh Yah·weh ’e·ḥāḏ ū·šə·mōw ’e·ḥāḏ.

stop with your misquotations.
 





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#5
The hebrew is YHWH which they don't even like to write, so they write Adonai which is translated into THE Lord.

9 wə·hā·yāh Yah·weh lə·me·leḵ ‘al- kāl- hā·’ā·reṣ; bay·yō·wm ha·hū, yih·yeh Yah·weh ’e·ḥāḏ ū·šə·mōw ’e·ḥāḏ.

stop with your misquotations.
The quotation is correct (Exodus 3:14-15):

King of kings' Bible, Exodus
3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, "I AM" hath sent me unto you.
3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The "I AM" God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] My name for ever, and this [is] My memorial unto all generations.

King of kings' Bible, Koran
Sura 2:255. The "I AM" - (YHWH) (Allah). There is no god but He,- the Living, the Self-Existing - (YHWH in Hebrew - "I AM" in English), Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on Earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His Knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the Earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is The Most High, The Supreme (in Glory).

3:2. Allah (God). There is no God but He,- the Living, the Self-Existing (YHWH - "I AM"), Eternal.

20:111. (All) faces shall be humbled before (Him) - the Living, the Self-Existing (YHWH - "I AM"), Eternal: hopeless indeed will be the man that carries iniquity (on his back).


The Way home or face The Fire
11:29 The Roman Catholics say that only Catholics can go to heaven, and the other Christian sects
say that only Christians can go to heaven, so they concentrate only on the New Testament, but at
least some of them read the Torah, and have combined it with the New Testament, into the Bible.
This shows that at least they are more open-minded, and tolerant, than the other two groups (Sura
2:113 & 5:15).

11:30 The Moslems say that only Moslems can go to heaven, because they do not read ALL of their
own Book (Sura 2:62 & 5:72); they only read, and mis-interpret, the parts that the devil wants them
to read and mis-interpret. They have become so arrogant, and such fanatics, that they frighten people
away, and thereby have prevented, and still are preventing, the adding of the Koran, to the Bible, to
make up the complete 3/3 of The Book.

11:31 All people, of all colours, nationalities and beliefs, who do God’s Will, and keep His
COMMANDMENTS and COVENANT/Testament (Sura 16:91), written in the Bible, will survive;
and ALL the others, of all colours, nationalities and beliefs, who do not DO God’s Will, and keep
the COMMANDMENTS, will perish, in “The Fire”, on the Last-Day. You have God’s Word on
that (Joel 2:32)(Luke 13:29 & Rev. 5:9)(Sura 2:62, 112 & Sura 5:72).

11:32 Satan has conned you ALL, perfectly - divide and conquer. The Jews read their 1/3 of the
Book (Torah), and refuse to accept anything that came after it.

11:33 The Moslems do exactly the same, in reverse, reading their 1/3 of The Book (Koran), and
refuse to accept anything that came before it. The Christians stay in the middle, and read the middle
1/3 of The Book, and refuse to accept what came before, but especially what came after it.

CONGRATULATIONS!

11:34 You have ALL been conned! You had ALL better start to get it right, NOW, or you will all
win the booby-prize - “The Fire”.
 





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#7
I don't like to use the word "Trinity". Its not a word used in the Bible. The "Godhead" (the word I prefer to use), is in the Bible. God is three persons in one according to the Bible. This confuses some people and they wonder how three can be one. Well in the Bible the word “one” does not always mean numerical quantity. Depending on the Scripture, “one” can often mean unity.

One example of this would be in Genesis 2:24, “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” “One flesh” here does not mean that a married couple melt into one human after their wedding, but rather they are to be united into one family.

Another example would be when Jesus prayed that the apostles would be one, saying, “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.” (John 17:22- 23).

So God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are united in their purpose of creation, of redemption, and saving man.

We see three distinct persons of God at Jesus' baptism in Matthew 3:16-17, “When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

And 1 John 5:7 tells us, "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

Scripture tells us that the Godhead is three in one. This three-in-one not only created us, but they love us and devised an amazing plan to save a lost world from sin to restore us to His presence in paradise.

This is what we have to believe in as Christians.

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen” (2 Corinthians 13:14).
 





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#8
This is what we have to believe in as Christians.
Have you ever looked at the immorality of your belief?

On Jesus dying for you to appease your swollen ego, that wants you to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.

Regards
DL
 





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#9
Have you ever looked at the immorality of your belief?

On Jesus dying for you to appease your swollen ego, that wants you to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.

Regards
DL
You're the one who has immoral beliefs and I hope and pray you find out the truth before its tool late. God bless.
 





Lisa

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#10
It is Catholicism.

Zechariah 14:9 And the "I AM" shall be King over all the earth: in that Day shall there be one "I AM", and His name One [not a trinity].

Sura
5:76. They do blaspheme who say: "I AM" is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous Penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
5:77. Why turn they not to "I AM", and seek His forgiveness? For "I AM" is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Who is God talking about here...
Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.”​
‭‭
 





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#11
Who is God talking about here...
Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭​

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.”​
‭‭
The doctrine of the Trinity has no greater foe than the Hebrew Scriptures. It is on the strength of this sacred oracle that the Jew has preserved the concept of One, single, unique Creator God Who alone is worthy of worship. Missionaries undertake an daunting and unholy task as they scour the Jewish Scriptures in search of any text that can be construed as consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

No prophet remained silent on the uncompromising radical monotheism demanded by the God of Israel. The Jewish people, therefore, to whom these sublime declarations about the nature of the Almighty were given, knew nothing about a trinity of persons in the godhead.

Because the prophets relayed their divine message on the nature of God with such timeless, transparent, clarity, very few verses in Tanach could be summoned by the Church to corroborate their alien teachings on the doctrine of the Trinity. Understandably, though, the defenders of Christendom parade the few verses that they insist support the notion that there is a plurality in the godhead.

One of the most popular verses used by missionaries as a proof text in support of the doctrine of the Trinity is Genesis 1:26. This verse appears frequently in missionary literature despite of the fact that this argument has been answered countless times throughout the centuries and numerous Christian scholars have long abandoned it. Let’s examine the creation of man as described in the Torah:
And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and they shall rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
(Genesis 1:26)


With limited knowledge of the Jewish Scriptures, missionaries submit the above verse as evidence that there was a plurality in the godhead that participated in creation of our first parent. What other explanation could adequately account for the Torah’s use of the plural pronouns such as “us” and “our” in this verse?

This argument, however, is deeply flawed, and, accordingly, a great number of Trinitarian theologians have long rejected the notion that Genesis 1:26 implies a plurality of persons in the godhead. Rather, Christian scholars overwhelmingly agree that the plural pronoun in this verse is a reference to God’s ministering angels who were created previously, and the Almighty spoke majestically in the plural, consulting His heavenly court. Let’s read the comments of a number of preeminent Trinitarian Bible scholars on this subject.

For example, the evangelical Christian author Gordon J. Wenham, who is no foe of the Trinity and authored a widely respected two-volume commentary on the Book of Genesis, writes on this verse,
Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.1


If you had attended any one of my lectures you would know that the New International Version is hardly a Bible that can be construed as being friendly to Judaism. Yet, the NIV Study Bible also confirms in its commentary on Genesis 1:26,

Us… Our… Our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court (see 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18).2

Charles Caldwell Ryrie, a highly regarded Dispensationalist professor of Biblical Studies at the Philadelphia College of Bible and author of the widely read Bible commentary, The Ryrie Study Bible, writes in his short and to-the-point annotation on Genesis 1:26,

Us…Our. Plurals of majesty.3

The Liberty Annotated Study Bible, a Bible commentary published by the fundamentalist Reverend Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, similarly remarks on this verse,

The plural pronoun “Us” is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax.4

The exhaustive 10-volume commentary by Keil and Delitzsch is considered by many to be the most influential exposition on the “Old Testament” in evangelical circles. Yet in Keil and Delitzsch’s commentary on Genesis 1:26, we find,

The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Tr ini ty; modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis … No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis…5

The question that immediately comes to mind is: What would compel these conservative scholars – all of whom are devout Trinitarians – to categorically reject the notion that Genesis 1:26 supports the doctrine of Trinity? Why do they conclude that God is speaking in this famed verse in His majestic address to the angelic hosts of Heaven? Why are the commentaries of the above conservative Christian writers completely consistent with the age-old Jewish teaching on this verse?

The answer emerges from the Torah and its Prophets. If you search the Hebrew Bible you will find that when the Almighty speaks of “us” or “our,” He is addressing His ministering angels. In fact, only two chapters later, God continues to use the pronoun “us” as He speaks with His angels. At the end of the third chapter of Genesis the Almighty relates to His angels that Adam and his wife have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and must therefore be prevented from eating from the Tree of Life as well; for if man would gain access to the Tree of Life he will “become like one of us.” The Creator then instructs his burning angels, known as Cherubim, to stand at the entrance to the gate of the Garden of Eden, waving a flaming sword to prevent man from entering the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life. Let’s examine this famed text:
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” – therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
(Genesis 3:22-24)


This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what contributed the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of biblical sources from the Jewish Scriptures to support its position that:

“God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”6

Again, the NIV Study Bible’s concession in its commentary on Genesis 1:26 is particularly significant because this work of the product of conservative, Trinitarian commentary on the Bible. Its contributing authors had no incentive to support the Jewish interpretation of this verse. Its annotation relies on the simple context and exegesis of this verse.

I will close this letter with one final note.

Outsiders often wonder what powerful force binds the Jewish people united in faith. This is not so odd a question when we consider the internal conflicts that has followed our people throughout our troubled history. Bear in mind, regardless of the turbulent quarrels that fester among us, the oneness of God remains the binding thread which unites the Jewish people in history and witness. The teachings of the Torah were designed to set forever in the national conscience of the Jewish people the idea that God is one alone. Accordingly, He is the only Savior worthy of our devotion and worship.



__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

God said: "Let us make man in our image . . ." (Genesis 1:26) ((Genesis 1:26)) and "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language" (Genesis 11:7)((Genesis 11:7)). To whom does the "us" refer? Is it talking about the Trinity or about Gods connection to Humanity? Find out in this post.

Here Is The Answer To That Question
Trinitarian Christians maintain that Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 11:7 are proof-texts of an alleged tri-unity god, but this claim is erroneous. The inference that "Let us make man in our image" ((Genesis 1:26)) refers to the plurality of God is refuted by the subsequent verse, which relates the creation of man to a singular God, "And God created man in His image" ((Genesis 1:27)).

In this verse the Hebrew verb "created" appears in the singular form. If "let us make man" indicates a numerical plurality, it would be followed in the NEXT verse by, "And they created man in their image." Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim, to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for one in authority to speak of himself as if he were a plurality.

Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" ((2 Samuel 16:20)). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself' yet he refers to himself as "we" ((see also Ezra 4:16-19)).

God Manifesting His Humility
There is another possible reason for the use of the plural on the part of God, and that is to manifest His humility. God addresses Himself to the angels and says to them, "Let us make man in our image." It is not that He invites their help, but as a matter of modesty and courtesy, God associates them with the creation of man. This teaches us that a great man should act humbly and consult with those lower than him.

It is not unusual for God to refer to His heavenly court (angels) as "us," as we see in Isaiah 6:8, "And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?'" Although God often acts without assistance, He makes His intentions known to His servants. Thus, we find "Shall I conceal from Abraham that which I am doing" ((Genesis 18:17)); "He made known His ways to Moses, His doings to the children of Israel" ((Psalms 103:7)); "For the Lord God will do nothing without revealing His counsel to His servants the prophets" ((Amos 3:7)).

A misconception similar to that concerning Genesis 1:27 is held by trinitarian Christians with reference to the verse, "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language" ((Genesis 11:7)). Here, too, the confounding of the language is related in verse 9 to God alone, ". . . because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth." In this verse the Hebrew verb "did" appears in the singular form.

The Singularity of God
Also, the descent is credited in verse 5 to the Lord alone, "And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower." In this verse the Hebrew verb "came down" appears in the singular form. If a doctrine of plurality of persons is to be based on the grammatical form of words, the frequent interchanging of the singular and the plural should vitiate such an attempt as being without foundation or merit. We may safely conclude that the Bible refutes most emphatically every opinion, which deviates from the concept of an indivisible unity of God.

Chapter 45 of Isaiah, using the Tetragrammaton, unequivocally asserts that the Lord alone is the creator and ruler of all things in the universe. The six uses of 'Elohim in this chapter ((verses 3, 5, 14, 15, 18, 21)) show that the term 'Elohim is synonymous with the Tetragrammaton, and that both epithets refer to the absolute one-and-only God. The singularity of God, expressed in the first-person singular in verse 12, clearly shows who is meant by the phrase, "Let us create man in our image": "I, even I, have made the earth, and created man upon it; I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."

As for the Messiah, of him God says, "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even My servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and My servant David prince among them; I the Lord have spoken" ((Ezekiel 34:23-24)). The Lord alone will be worshiped as God, while the Messiah, as the servant of God, lives with the people. God and the Messiah are not and cannot be equals, for it is God alone who gives the Messiah power to rule in the capacity of His appointed servant.
 





Lisa

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#12
The doctrine of the Trinity has no greater foe than the Hebrew Scriptures. It is on the strength of this sacred oracle that the Jew has preserved the concept of One, single, unique Creator God Who alone is worthy of worship. Missionaries undertake an daunting and unholy task as they scour the Jewish Scriptures in search of any text that can be construed as consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

No prophet remained silent on the uncompromising radical monotheism demanded by the God of Israel. The Jewish people, therefore, to whom these sublime declarations about the nature of the Almighty were given, knew nothing about a trinity of persons in the godhead.

Because the prophets relayed their divine message on the nature of God with such timeless, transparent, clarity, very few verses in Tanach could be summoned by the Church to corroborate their alien teachings on the doctrine of the Trinity. Understandably, though, the defenders of Christendom parade the few verses that they insist support the notion that there is a plurality in the godhead.

One of the most popular verses used by missionaries as a proof text in support of the doctrine of the Trinity is Genesis 1:26. This verse appears frequently in missionary literature despite of the fact that this argument has been answered countless times throughout the centuries and numerous Christian scholars have long abandoned it. Let’s examine the creation of man as described in the Torah:
And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and they shall rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
(Genesis 1:26)


With limited knowledge of the Jewish Scriptures, missionaries submit the above verse as evidence that there was a plurality in the godhead that participated in creation of our first parent. What other explanation could adequately account for the Torah’s use of the plural pronouns such as “us” and “our” in this verse?

This argument, however, is deeply flawed, and, accordingly, a great number of Trinitarian theologians have long rejected the notion that Genesis 1:26 implies a plurality of persons in the godhead. Rather, Christian scholars overwhelmingly agree that the plural pronoun in this verse is a reference to God’s ministering angels who were created previously, and the Almighty spoke majestically in the plural, consulting His heavenly court. Let’s read the comments of a number of preeminent Trinitarian Bible scholars on this subject.

For example, the evangelical Christian author Gordon J. Wenham, who is no foe of the Trinity and authored a widely respected two-volume commentary on the Book of Genesis, writes on this verse,
Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.1


If you had attended any one of my lectures you would know that the New International Version is hardly a Bible that can be construed as being friendly to Judaism. Yet, the NIV Study Bible also confirms in its commentary on Genesis 1:26,

Us… Our… Our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court (see 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18).2

Charles Caldwell Ryrie, a highly regarded Dispensationalist professor of Biblical Studies at the Philadelphia College of Bible and author of the widely read Bible commentary, The Ryrie Study Bible, writes in his short and to-the-point annotation on Genesis 1:26,

Us…Our. Plurals of majesty.3

The Liberty Annotated Study Bible, a Bible commentary published by the fundamentalist Reverend Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, similarly remarks on this verse,

The plural pronoun “Us” is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax.4

The exhaustive 10-volume commentary by Keil and Delitzsch is considered by many to be the most influential exposition on the “Old Testament” in evangelical circles. Yet in Keil and Delitzsch’s commentary on Genesis 1:26, we find,

The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Tr ini ty; modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis … No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis…5

The question that immediately comes to mind is: What would compel these conservative scholars – all of whom are devout Trinitarians – to categorically reject the notion that Genesis 1:26 supports the doctrine of Trinity? Why do they conclude that God is speaking in this famed verse in His majestic address to the angelic hosts of Heaven? Why are the commentaries of the above conservative Christian writers completely consistent with the age-old Jewish teaching on this verse?

The answer emerges from the Torah and its Prophets. If you search the Hebrew Bible you will find that when the Almighty speaks of “us” or “our,” He is addressing His ministering angels. In fact, only two chapters later, God continues to use the pronoun “us” as He speaks with His angels. At the end of the third chapter of Genesis the Almighty relates to His angels that Adam and his wife have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and must therefore be prevented from eating from the Tree of Life as well; for if man would gain access to the Tree of Life he will “become like one of us.” The Creator then instructs his burning angels, known as Cherubim, to stand at the entrance to the gate of the Garden of Eden, waving a flaming sword to prevent man from entering the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life. Let’s examine this famed text:
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” – therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
(Genesis 3:22-24)


This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what contributed the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of biblical sources from the Jewish Scriptures to support its position that:

“God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”6

Again, the NIV Study Bible’s concession in its commentary on Genesis 1:26 is particularly significant because this work of the product of conservative, Trinitarian commentary on the Bible. Its contributing authors had no incentive to support the Jewish interpretation of this verse. Its annotation relies on the simple context and exegesis of this verse.

I will close this letter with one final note.

Outsiders often wonder what powerful force binds the Jewish people united in faith. This is not so odd a question when we consider the internal conflicts that has followed our people throughout our troubled history. Bear in mind, regardless of the turbulent quarrels that fester among us, the oneness of God remains the binding thread which unites the Jewish people in history and witness. The teachings of the Torah were designed to set forever in the national conscience of the Jewish people the idea that God is one alone. Accordingly, He is the only Savior worthy of our devotion and worship.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

God said: "Let us make man in our image . . ." (Genesis 1:26) ((Genesis 1:26)) and "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language" (Genesis 11:7)((Genesis 11:7)). To whom does the "us" refer? Is it talking about the Trinity or about Gods connection to Humanity? Find out in this post.

Here Is The Answer To That Question
Trinitarian Christians maintain that Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 11:7 are proof-texts of an alleged tri-unity god, but this claim is erroneous. The inference that "Let us make man in our image" ((Genesis 1:26)) refers to the plurality of God is refuted by the subsequent verse, which relates the creation of man to a singular God, "And God created man in His image" ((Genesis 1:27)).


In this verse the Hebrew verb "created" appears in the singular form. If "let us make man" indicates a numerical plurality, it would be followed in the NEXT verse by, "And they created man in their image." Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim, to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for one in authority to speak of himself as if he were a plurality.

Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" ((2 Samuel 16:20)). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself' yet he refers to himself as "we" ((see also Ezra 4:16-19)).

God Manifesting His Humility
There is another possible reason for the use of the plural on the part of God, and that is to manifest His humility. God addresses Himself to the angels and says to them, "Let us make man in our image." It is not that He invites their help, but as a matter of modesty and courtesy, God associates them with the creation of man. This teaches us that a great man should act humbly and consult with those lower than him.


It is not unusual for God to refer to His heavenly court (angels) as "us," as we see in Isaiah 6:8, "And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?'" Although God often acts without assistance, He makes His intentions known to His servants. Thus, we find "Shall I conceal from Abraham that which I am doing" ((Genesis 18:17)); "He made known His ways to Moses, His doings to the children of Israel" ((Psalms 103:7)); "For the Lord God will do nothing without revealing His counsel to His servants the prophets" ((Amos 3:7)).

A misconception similar to that concerning Genesis 1:27 is held by trinitarian Christians with reference to the verse, "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language" ((Genesis 11:7)). Here, too, the confounding of the language is related in verse 9 to God alone, ". . . because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth." In this verse the Hebrew verb "did" appears in the singular form.

The Singularity of God
Also, the descent is credited in verse 5 to the Lord alone, "And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower." In this verse the Hebrew verb "came down" appears in the singular form. If a doctrine of plurality of persons is to be based on the grammatical form of words, the frequent interchanging of the singular and the plural should vitiate such an attempt as being without foundation or merit. We may safely conclude that the Bible refutes most emphatically every opinion, which deviates from the concept of an indivisible unity of God.


Chapter 45 of Isaiah, using the Tetragrammaton, unequivocally asserts that the Lord alone is the creator and ruler of all things in the universe. The six uses of 'Elohim in this chapter ((verses 3, 5, 14, 15, 18, 21)) show that the term 'Elohim is synonymous with the Tetragrammaton, and that both epithets refer to the absolute one-and-only God. The singularity of God, expressed in the first-person singular in verse 12, clearly shows who is meant by the phrase, "Let us create man in our image": "I, even I, have made the earth, and created man upon it; I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."

As for the Messiah, of him God says, "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even My servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and My servant David prince among them; I the Lord have spoken" ((Ezekiel 34:23-24)). The Lord alone will be worshiped as God, while the Messiah, as the servant of God, lives with the people. God and the Messiah are not and cannot be equals, for it is God alone who gives the Messiah power to rule in the capacity of His appointed servant.
Was that supposed to be the answer to my question? Surely it’s not that complicated...who was God talking about when He said this..
Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.”​
 





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#15
Ya I didn’t read the cut and paste job...you could just answer who you think God is talking about. Don’t bother to cut and paste the reply for a third time. :rolleyes:
Ya your conclusion doesn't even agree with most Christian theologians, let alone what Genesis 1:26 actually say. Ya you're scraping the barrel, there's no trinity to be found.
 





Lisa

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#16
Ya your conclusion doesn't even agree with most Christian theologians, let alone what Genesis 1:26 actually say. Ya you're scraping the barrel, there's no trinity to be found.
Ok, so you have no clue as to what God is talking about in that verse?
 





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#17
Ok, so you have no clue as to what God is talking about in that verse?
You don't, which is the problem here. No proper Christian theologian will give any credibility to your 'fan-theory' here. A preacher may interject it for proselytizing purposes but the text of Genesis itself does not support such conclusions. There is no Trinity in Genesis 1:26
 





Lisa

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#18
You don't, which is the problem here. No proper Christian theologian will give any credibility to your 'fan-theory' here. A preacher may interject it for proselytizing purposes but the text of Genesis itself does not support such conclusions. There is no Trinity in Genesis 1:26
Who do you think God is talking about when He says Us and Our if not His partners in the trinity?
 





Lisa

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#20
And yet you refused to read what I posted :rolleyes:
For one it’s just cut and paste and secondly, it’s too long to read something that probably won’t come close to an answer to my very simple question. Even now your are deflecting..because you know very well that God is taking about more than one with Us and Our.