Revelation

[Allegra]

None of you people have the slightest idea what the book of Revelation is about. I forced Encyclopaedia Britannica to correct its identification of the beast with the name/number "666" by convincing the author of the article, Krister Stendahl, who was formerly dean of Harvard Divinity School, and later bishop of Stockholm and head of the Church of Sweden, that the mistake invalidated "The Ouzo Prophecy." Unfortunately, you lack the curiosity to ask for proof, contained in The Ouzo Papers, available upon request to me at ouzo.game@mail.com.

please send it to my email whereismytreat@luluthedevinecat.org

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

2 Peter 1 provides a great explanation of what prophecy is:-

16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[phipps]

The "star" of Revelation.

Many are totally unaware that the "Star" of revelation is Jesus. Revelation discloses some very extraordinary and exciting things about Him. In fact, the key purpose of the book is to help us see Jesus in a wonderful new light.

The name "Revelation" means "revealing" or "unveiling" and the introductory words of the book make clear what is being revealed. The first five words are "THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST". So it is Jesus and His magnificent. loving plans that are being unveiled or revealed in the book of Revelation.

When we keep this fantastic fact in mind and look for Jesus in Revelation, we will find it one of the most heart-warming and stimulating experiences of life.

Jesus is called by at least 37 different names or descriptive titles in the book of Revelation. Amazingly, He is mentioned by one of His names or titles, or by a pronoun representing one of those names over 137 times in the first three chapters and over 250 times in the entire book of Revelation. There is no doubt that Revelation is a book that has something very important to say to us regarding Jesus.

Names and Titles of Jesus in the Book of Revelation.

Jesus Christ
Faithful witness
First Begotten of the Dead
Prince of the Kings of the earth
Alpha and Omega
First and last
Son of Man
He that liveth and was dead
He that holdeth the seven stars
He who walketh midst the golden candlesticks
Son of God
He which searches the reins and hearts
He that hath the seven stars
He that is holy and true
He that hath the key of David
He that openeth and no man shutteth
He that shutteth and no man openeth
The Amen
The faithful and true witness
The beginning of the creation of God
Lord
Lion of the tribe of Juda
The root of David
A Lamb as it had been slain
The Lamb
The Lord God of the Holy Prophets
Lord of lords
King of kings
The Word of God
Faithful and true
Beginning and the end
Rider of White horse
Christ
He who hath the sharp sword with two edges
He that hath the seven spirits of God
The bright and morning star

 

[phipps]

The "villain" of Revelation.

A brief review of the book of Revelation quickly reveals several crucial points:

A. A terrifying, deadly, organised conflict is taking place on this earth between good and evil.

B. Jesus, the Son of God, powerfully leads the forces of good with love, courage, wisdom, kindness, patience, integrity, gentleness, serenity, sympathy, compassion, tact and geniality. His leadership style is one of concern and fair-play for even His worst enemies. He is worthy of our worship because He is our creator and our Redeemer.

C. Someone on the other hand, powerfully leads the forces of evil in relentless, devastating assaults upon Jesus and His people. That someone, according to the book of Revelation, is the devil and Satan. As a leader, he is unbelievably militant, crass, venomous, heartless, hateful, and unscrupulous, yet, incredible as it may seem, he also asks for our worship. He is dead serious about destroying everyone of us; and unless we are aware of his characteristics and strategy, the odds are very great that he will ensnare and ruin us, or else we will be duped into worshipping him.

Satan's names and titles in Revelation.

The devil
Dragon
Serpent of Old
Satan
Accuser

Satan is mentioned 55 times in the book of Revelation. In addition, he is referred to indirectly many times, as he works through his agents to destroy God's work and His people. "Satan" means adversary or enemy. "Devil" means slanderer.

 

[Vytas]

(Let's do nothing, God will sort it out)

And on the other side we have over concerned elite who would like to depopulate humanity because we are doomed...Book of revelation tells us that time will come where everybody will have to pick a side. If it will happen in our lifetime im really curious where you will end up. Because liking nothing might not be an option anymore....

 

[Awoken2]

..Book of revelation tells us that time will come where everybody will have to pick a side.

I don't believe it. It really doesn't matter which side you pick because both sides, in my opinion will be well and truly f*cked.

If people want to seek comfort in the notion that by picking the right side it will give them an eternal aferlife then that's up to them.

But this tribulation event...and I'm calling it an event because that's exactly what it's going to be will be engineered by living breathing, psychopathic men.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

“The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs” or the high cost of cynicism and unbelief

The following is written by guest contributor Paul Gould, Professor of Philosophy and Apologetics at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

In a comical scene that turns tragic, the Dwarfs in C. S. Lewis’s Narnian tale The Last Battle vow to never again allow themselves to believe in Aslan. Why? They had been duped into thinking that Puzzle (the donkey) was Aslan and once King Tirian revealed the truth about Puzzle, the Dwarfs become mystified at how easily they had been fooled. They determined to never be fooled again. They would rather remain in unbelief and cynicism than believe in Aslan, out of fear of being “taken” once more.

While speaking to King Tirian, a Dwarf named Griffle explained:

“I don’t think we want any more Kings—if you are Tirian, which you don’t look like him—no more than we want any Aslans. We’re going to look out for ourselves from now on and touch our caps to nobody. See?”

And the rest of the dwarf’s replied:

“That’s right . . . We’re on our own now. No more Aslan, no more Kings, no more silly stories about other worlds. The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs.”[1]

As Lewis powerfully illustrates in this Narnian tale, there is a high cost to such blind cynicism and unbelief. Let me share three such costs.

First, while it might be a good strategy for minimizing false beliefs, blind cynicism and unbelief misconstrues our job as knowers. The goal of our epistemic life is not just to minimize false beliefs. It is also to maximize true beliefs. Being rightly related to reality is part of the good life, and the “head in the sand” posture of “the Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs” will keep one from knowing important truths. We should place all of our epistemic life, which includes our beliefs, unbeliefs, and withheld beliefs, under rational scrutiny.

Second, blind cynicism and unbelief wrongly shifts the burden of proof. There is no special burden of proof for our positive beliefs. Unbelief, as much as belief, are both postures toward reality; they both are a kind of epistemic attitude. As such, both equally share a burden of providing grounds or sufficient reasons for their (respective) epistemic attitude. There is no special burden of proof for the believer (in God, the world, or self) than the unbeliever. Antony Flew once suggested that there was a “presumption of atheism” with respect to God: the “onus of proof must lie on the theist.”[2] But this is false—neither the theist nor the atheist wins by default—each must present a cumulative case.

Third, blind cynicism and unbelief diminishes our chances at seeing the truth even when we stand before it. Real Narnia, even Aslan himself, were on offer. Yet the Dwarfs were unable to see the truth in front of them. Lewis here reveals not only the impossibility of being fair-minded and objective given such a posture, but also the fact that blind cynicism is actually counter-productive—diminishing our chances of finding the truth that lies ever before us. Consider again Antony Flew’s suggestion that we should adopt a presumption of atheism with respect to the God question. In doing so it may: (i) prevent one from noticing relevant positive evidence for God (because we are already justified in our atheism); (ii) blind one to the significance of the positive evidence which one does notice; and (iii) rule out the possibility of finding God on such a presumption, since Scripture seems to indicate that one who adopts such a posture may in fact not find God (e.g., Hebrews 11:6, Jer. 29:12-14).

We should, therefore, reject the “Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs” posture in our epistemic life. The question then is this: What policy ought we adopt in our epistemic life?

I suggest that we adopt a posture of “genuine openness” to the truth about reality.[3] In other words, we should adopt a policy that gives us the best chance at finding the truth about God, the world, and ourselves. This posture pushes against the zeitgeist of our day as well as its chief virtue of apathy. We ought to care about our epistemic life, for without being rightly related to reality the chance of living a good life—a flourishing life—is nil.

I submit to you that such a posture will lead one to the living God and an enchanted world of deep beauty, value, and significance. Narnia is all around you and Aslan bids you to “awake.”

 

[Vytas]

I don't believe it. It really doesn't matter which side you pick because both sides, in my opinion will be well and truly f*cked.

If people want to seek comfort in the notion that by picking the right side it will give them an eternal aferlife then that's up to them.

But this tribulation event...and I'm calling it an event because that's exactly what it's going to be will be engineered by living breathing, psychopathic men.

I doubt people are motivated by reward in afterlife, you go and offer someone to work for reward after a decade...
As for you opinion it might change after few global cataclysms, easy for us to speculate now. I used to think im not afraid of dying, changed my opinion very quickly, when it was about to happen...

 

[Thunderian]

Read the history of the attacks of the Roman empire by barbaric tribes. Many think this coincided with the Goths who attacked Rome. Its important to understand the back ground of these trumpets before you try to understand them.

The language of the first trumpet suggests a violent hailstorm. What does hailstorm represent in prophecy? The Old testament on which Revelation is based gives the clue. In describing the invasion of the Assyrians into the land of Israel, prophet Isaiah declared, "Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one, Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing, Who will bring them down to the earth with His hand." Isaiah 28:2. The storm as described in the first trumpet, denotes military invasion.

More symbolism suggests the destruction of the countryside. "the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."
This indicates that forests, pastures and crops would be destroyed by the invasion. It also has "hail and fire mingled with blood" denoting carnage or the slaughter of both animals and people.

You have done a great job of not answering my question.

When the Bible means something symbolically, it generally uses the terms "like" or "as", as in Revelation 1:14 - His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire. You quoted such a verse yourself from Isaiah 28. Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing. I don't see the words "like" or "as" in any of the descriptions of what will happen to the earth in Revelation.

There are hundreds of examples of such literary devices used in scripture, so when the Bible makes a statement that sounds definitive, like we read in the verse I quoted about hail mixed with blood, I have to look at it in context with the rest of the God's word. I don't doubt that God means what he says, and says what he means, and I believe that a God who sends fire down from heaven to devour his enemies, as he did in 2 Kings 1:14, or parts the Red Sea and then sends it back together to destroy Israel's pursuers, or even floods the entire world as punishment for sin, will have no problem literally sending down hail mixed with blood as part of a final judgement on evil. What makes you doubt God?

 

[Thunderian]

The "star" of Revelation.

Many are totally unaware that the "Star" of revelation is Jesus. Revelation discloses some very extraordinary and exciting things about Him. In fact, the key purpose of the book is to help us see Jesus in a wonderful new light.

The name "Revelation" means "revealing" or "unveiling" and the introductory words of the book make clear what is being revealed. The first five words are "THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST". So it is Jesus and His magnificent. loving plans that are being unveiled or revealed in the book of Revelation.

When we keep this fantastic fact in mind and look for Jesus in Revelation, we will find it one of the most heart-warming and stimulating experiences of life.

Jesus is called by at least 37 different names or descriptive titles in the book of Revelation. Amazingly, He is mentioned by one of His names or titles, or by a pronoun representing one of those names over 137 times in the first three chapters and over 250 times in the entire book of Revelation. There is no doubt that Revelation is a book that has something very important to say to us regarding Jesus.

Names and Titles of Jesus in the Book of Revelation.

Jesus Christ
Faithful witness
First Begotten of the Dead
Prince of the Kings of the earth
Alpha and Omega
First and last
Son of Man
He that liveth and was dead
He that holdeth the seven stars
He who walketh midst the golden candlesticks
Son of God
He which searches the reins and hearts
He that hath the seven stars
He that is holy and true
He that hath the key of David
He that openeth and no man shutteth
He that shutteth and no man openeth
The Amen
The faithful and true witness
The beginning of the creation of God
Lord
Lion of the tribe of Juda
The root of David
A Lamb as it had been slain
The Lamb
The Lord God of the Holy Prophets
Lord of lords
King of kings
The Word of God
Faithful and true
Beginning and the end
Rider of White horse
Christ
He who hath the sharp sword with two edges
He that hath the seven spirits of God
The bright and morning star

An interesting thing about the titles used for Jesus in Revelation. In chapters 1-3, the titles used for Jesus Christ are generally related to the New Testament -- the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive, etc, but from chapters 4-18 he is referred to by Jewish, or Old Testament, terms, ie. Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, the Lamb of God.

It may have something to do with the fact that, in chapter 4, John (a type of the Church) is raptured up to Heaven, where the Church, represented by the 24 elders, is seated on thrones around the throne of God. We don't see the Church again until they return to earth with Jesus Christ in chapter 19.

 

[Daciple]

You have done a great job of not answering my question.

When the Bible means something symbolically, it generally uses the terms "like" or "as", as in Revelation 1:14 - His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire. You quoted such a verse yourself from Isaiah 28. Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing. I don't see the words "like" or "as" in any of the descriptions of what will happen to the earth in Revelation.

There are hundreds of examples of such literary devices used in scripture, so when the Bible makes a statement that sounds definitive, like we read in the verse I quoted about hail mixed with blood, I have to look at it in context with the rest of the God's word. I don't doubt that God means what he says, and says what he means, and I believe that a God who sends fire down from heaven to devour his enemies, as he did in 2 Kings 1:14, or parts the Red Sea and then sends it back together to destroy Israel's pursuers, or even floods the entire world as punishment for sin, will have no problem literally sending down hail mixed with blood as part of a final judgement on evil. What makes you doubt God?

So believe that Satan is going to be literally bound with literal chains in the literal bottomless pit?

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Does Jesus have a literal Sword coming out of His mouth?

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The Angel stands in the literal middle of the literal Sun?

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

The people will be literally destroyed by the literal sword that comes out of the literal mouth of Jesus?

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Does the Judgement literally come in one day? ( I mean you perspective definitely doesnt allow for Judgement to come in one day that is for sure)

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Is it every shipman and company of ships and sailors going to literally stand in the seas and watch the literal city burn, and wail and moan about it? And does it happen in one hour?

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Is this a literal woman, sitting upon a literal beast? Is she literally wearing clothes with many colors and literally holding a cup?

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Is every Mountain and Island literally fleeting and disappearing?

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

A literal beast, rising from the literal sea?

Rev 13:13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

A literal beast rising from the literal earth?

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

A literal woman clothed with the literal Sun, with the literal moon under her literal feet, with a literal crown with literal stars? And she gave literal birth to a literal child?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The literal woman fled into a literal wilderness?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Literal woman, literal dragon, literal man child, literal wings, literal eagle, literal fly, literal wilderness? But the times, times and time and a half is a literal number?

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

John ate a literal book that tasted like literal honey and made him sick?

Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

In none of these verses are the words Like or As, so according to your logic, if it is consistent, then all of these passages are all describing literal events, as they literally happen, by the literal people or things described in the verses. If you say they dont, that they are SYMBOLIC, then why are you doubting God?

Here is the facts, the facts are Revelation is an entire book written in SYMBOLISM, 99% of everything written is written SYMBOLICALLY and NOT Literally. Are there a FEW things that are literal? Sure, and why do we accept when they are literal as opposed to Symbolic? When in other passages throughout the Bible they are described as Literal. The most obvious example is the literal Lake of Fire, Jesus speaks of it existing as literally, the rest of the Bible testifies of it literally so we know that John, pulling from these examples is speaking of a literal Lake of Fire.

The opposite example is the Mark of the Beast, is it literal? Many people believe it is, however when we look back in Scripture is there ever a time that describes someone being marked that is parallel to this idea of the Mark of the Beast?

Ez 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

So do we really think a literal man clothed in literal linen had a literal inkhorn and literally went out into the city and literally marked the foreheads of people?

Of course not, it is ALL SYMBOLIC of the Judgement of God upon Israel at that time, and the ones who were spared being the ones who were crying to heaven for Redemption from the Evil Men who were bringing Israel down.

THAT is definitely the imagery that John is pulling from, just like the rest of Revelation is drenched in imagery from the Old Testament, so what most of you think is literal is just Symbolism, but it is hard for people to be moved from the brainwashing they have been told their entire lives concerning Eschatology.

As I have said dozens of times now, almost NO ONE in the History of the Church believed in the literalism present in Modern Christianity concerning Eschatology until John Nelson Darby created his ideology, that has been adopted by all most all of Mainstream Christianity.

EVERYONE until then read Revelation as 99% Symbolic, and almost NO ONE believed in a Literal 1000 year Reign of Christ on the Earth...

Getting this across to certain people tho is basically impossible...

 

[TokiEl]

I'm beginning to think you people don't believe in a Fourth reich.

Better wake up peeps !

 

[Thunderian]

So believe that Satan is going to be literally bound with literal chains in the literal bottomless pit?

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Does Jesus have a literal Sword coming out of His mouth?

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The Angel stands in the literal middle of the literal Sun?

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

The people will be literally destroyed by the literal sword that comes out of the literal mouth of Jesus?

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Does the Judgement literally come in one day? ( I mean you perspective definitely doesnt allow for Judgement to come in one day that is for sure)

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Is it every shipman and company of ships and sailors going to literally stand in the seas and watch the literal city burn, and wail and moan about it? And does it happen in one hour?

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Is this a literal woman, sitting upon a literal beast? Is she literally wearing clothes with many colors and literally holding a cup?

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Is every Mountain and Island literally fleeting and disappearing?

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

A literal beast, rising from the literal sea?

Rev 13:13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

A literal beast rising from the literal earth?

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

A literal woman clothed with the literal Sun, with the literal moon under her literal feet, with a literal crown with literal stars? And she gave literal birth to a literal child?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The literal woman fled into a literal wilderness?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Literal woman, literal dragon, literal man child, literal wings, literal eagle, literal fly, literal wilderness? But the times, times and time and a half is a literal number?

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

John ate a literal book that tasted like literal honey and made him sick?

Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

In none of these verses are the words Like or As, so according to your logic, if it is consistent, then all of these passages are all describing literal events, as they literally happen, by the literal people or things described in the verses. If you say they dont, that they are SYMBOLIC, then why are you doubting God?

Here is the facts, the facts are Revelation is an entire book written in SYMBOLISM, 99% of everything written is written SYMBOLICALLY and NOT Literally. Are there a FEW things that are literal? Sure, and why do we accept when they are literal as opposed to Symbolic? When in other passages throughout the Bible they are described as Literal. The most obvious example is the literal Lake of Fire, Jesus speaks of it existing as literally, the rest of the Bible testifies of it literally so we know that John, pulling from these examples is speaking of a literal Lake of Fire.

The opposite example is the Mark of the Beast, is it literal? Many people believe it is, however when we look back in Scripture is there ever a time that describes someone being marked that is parallel to this idea of the Mark of the Beast?

Ez 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

So do we really think a literal man clothed in literal linen had a literal inkhorn and literally went out into the city and literally marked the foreheads of people?

Of course not, it is ALL SYMBOLIC of the Judgement of God upon Israel at that time, and the ones who were spared being the ones who were crying to heaven for Redemption from the Evil Men who were bringing Israel down.

THAT is definitely the imagery that John is pulling from, just like the rest of Revelation is drenched in imagery from the Old Testament, so what most of you think is literal is just Symbolism, but it is hard for people to be moved from the brainwashing they have been told their entire lives concerning Eschatology.

As I have said dozens of times now, almost NO ONE in the History of the Church believed in the literalism present in Modern Christianity concerning Eschatology until John Nelson Darby created his ideology, that has been adopted by all most all of Mainstream Christianity.

EVERYONE until then read Revelation as 99% Symbolic, and almost NO ONE believed in a Literal 1000 year Reign of Christ on the Earth...

Getting this across to certain people tho is basically impossible...

I will ask you one Yes or No question.

Do you think it's possible for God to describe an actual event using symbolic terms?

 

[Daciple]

Do you think it's possible for God to describe an actual event using symbolic terms?

Sure, does that mean that the event being described Symbolically is what YOU believe it to be?

Clearly there are events or an event being described Symbolically in Revelation, but your interpretation is Literal, Futuristic, whereas the ENTIRE History of the Church viewed almost ALL of Revelation as being Symbolic of the Literal Event of Christs Life, Death and Resurrection, THAT Event...

 

[Thunderian]

Sure, does that mean that the event being described Symbolically is what YOU believe it to be?

Clearly there are events or an event being described Symbolically in Revelation, but your interpretation is Literal, Futuristic, whereas the ENTIRE History of the Church viewed almost ALL of Revelation as being Symbolic of the Literal Event of Christs Life, Death and Resurrection, THAT Event...

Why would God describe something in so much physical detail if it's never going to come physically true? Why would God become a man if it's all going to become spiritual anyway? To turn a phrase, Shall he complete in the spirit, what was begun in the flesh?

There are almost 2000 references in the Bible, outside of Revelation, describing a time when Jesus Christ rules the earth from a throne in Jerusalem. What makes you dismiss all these verses as figurative? Can you give any examples of prophecy that were given as literal but were fulfilled in an allegorical sense?

Furthermore, how do you deal with a verse like this?

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.​

It interprets the ten horns as ten kings, but you say the kings themselves are not literal. So you have a figurative thing, described as a figurative thing? What do you think the horn/king actually represents, if not what the Bible says it does?

Another verse you might have trouble with is Revelation 11:18 -- And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt -- but you say Jerusalem itself is a spiritual term for something else entirely? When does it end? Why can't Jerusalem just be Jerusalem?

 

[Daciple]

Why would God describe something in so much physical detail if it's never going to come physically true?

God describes EVERYTHING in physical detail to relate it all to us, that doesnt mean that it what is described comes to pass in the literal fashion in which it is stated.

Here is an example of a Prophecy that is given as literal but wasnt fulfilled literally as stated:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So did the Seed of the Woman literally have his heel bruised? Did the Seed of the Serpent literally have his head bruised? No of course not, that is a literal Prophecy that is SYMBOLIC of the Event of the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus the Seed SPIRITUALLY crushed the head of Satan, even tho Satan PHYSICALLY bruised Christ in His Death.

There are almost 2000 references in the Bible, outside of Revelation, describing a time when Jesus Christ rules the earth from a throne in Jerusalem. What makes you dismiss all these verses as figurative?

Actually MOST if not ALL of what you say is Jesus Christ ruling the Earth from the Throne in Jerusalem is actually about the New Heavens and New Earth, you just refuse to accept that these Prophecies ought to be read in CONTEXT of the True Fulfillment that is in sight.

I mean how does Paul interpret the Bible? Are things literal or are they SYMBOLIC of the Spiritual Realm?

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

There is directly given by Paul of a Prophecy that was given as Literal but fulfilled Allegorical, straight from the Bible itself, not me making it up or my views, that is Paul and that is Scripture. The Literal 2 Sons are actually an Allegory of the Promise being fulfilled SPIRITUALLY thru Christ to those who believe in Faith.

Furthermore what does Paul say almost EVERYTHING in the Old Testament is?

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

All of that is just a shadow of things to come, a shadow of what is fulfilled in Christ. Need more?

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Everything in the Old Testament, all the Priests, the Temple, the things that happened to Israel, the Prophecies, all of it are just shadows of Christ and the SPIRITUAL Reality, which for some reason you want to diminish with your ideologies.

I would rather follow how Paul interpreted the Bible, how the Early Church interpreted the Bible, than to interpret it by the method that one man invented 1800 yrs after the fact.

It would do you well to look at the things you want to be for Jesus on this Earth and place it upon Christ in the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH, then you wont have all the illogical nonsense that follows on the heels of your ideology, like Jesus dying to Free Humanity from the Curse of the Law and the Old Covenant, to then almost immediately come back and throw everyone back under it...

Furthermore, how do you deal with a verse like this?

IF the Bible defines it, it is what it says, so now it is a matter of has this been fulfilled or is it in the Future or does it Represent more than just Physical Literal Kings. Just as one of the verses I gave you, the Bible defines exactly what is meant, showing outright that it isnt a Literal Woman, Seas ect.

So what is the Woman? If I take it Literal, I personally would take it as Israel, if I take it Spiritually, then I would take it as all the Apostate Religions. And you could easily take it as both considering Israel is an absolute whore that fornicates with the whole world since its inception and continues today, as well as being the centerpiece of all False Religions, as it prostitutes itself with the Ancient Mystery Religions.

So like I said many people have taken that Prophecy as being fulfilled during the Lifetime of John or shortly thereafter, you of course probably have never tried to study out if these Prophecies could have been fulfilled in Johns time or not. I will leave it up to you to search out if these were fulfilled in the Past, me telling you that they have been would do you no use, you wouldnt believe me...

What I can tell you is that almost the Entire Early Church didnt believe what you believe concerning pretty much everything in Revelation...

Another verse you might have trouble with is Revelation 11:18 -- And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt -- but you say Jerusalem itself is a spiritual term for something else entirely? When does it end? Why can't Jerusalem just be Jerusalem?

So CAN the 2 witness represent something? Is that even possible in your mind? Do these witnesses share any Symbolism to any other Symbols in Revelation?

Lets find out shall we?

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Do these witnesses share this time in common with anything else that is Symbolic in Revelation?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Do the witnesses share any other Symbolism with anything else as described in Revelation?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So what do you think the Woman and the Candlesticks represent in Revelation? Well according to the idea that the Bible interprets the Bible, we can go back to the same exact Book and see that candlesticks represent what? The Church, and what does the Woman represent? The Church.

So why do you not want to allow the witnesses to Represent the Church as all the Symbolism points too?

You say the passage say Jerusalem but it doesnt actually SAY Jerusalem does it? Let us look again, is the name of the city, Jerusalem stated specifically in the text?

Revelation 11:18 -- And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

So straight up in this specific verse it immediately identifies itself to be read SPIRITUALLY, says it outright, but you dont want to do that do you?

Then YOU make the assumption that it says Jerusalem, but it does NOT actually say Jerusalem now does it? Nope...

So do you personally believe that Jerusalem is Spiritually Sodom and Egypt? Is that going to be your perspective and view from now on? Because that would 100% go against your Zionism and ideal that Jerusalem is actually the Apple of Gods eye and blessed ect...

Was Jesus actually killed IN Jerusalem? Lets look at the text from Scripture to discern if Jesus was killed IN Jerusalem:

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Jesus was NOT Crucified IN Jerusalem, He was OUTSIDE of Jerusalem when He was killed as History attests to:

That it was a spot where skulls were to be found lying about and probably, therefore, a public place of execution. This tradition apparently originates with Jerome (346-420 A.D.), who refers to (3), to condemn it, and says that "outside the city and without the gate there are places wherein the heads of condemned criminals are cut off and which have obtained the name of Calvary-that is, of the beheaded.

https://bibleatlas.org/golgotha.htm

Also Jerusalem hasnt been called Great in the Bible, the only time in Context any Jerusalem is called Great is the New Jerusalem and I am sure that you wouldnt suggest that Jesus was killed in the New Jerusalem.

So is there any other City that is called Great in the Book of Revelation?

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

So as I stated earlier Spiritually speaking the Woman, which is also described Symbolically as a Great City, is the culmination of all the Apostate False Religions, or Babylon, or as also used Symbolically in Scripture, Egypt and Sodom. THAT makes much more sense than to call actual Jerusalem Spiritually Sodom and Egypt. Spiritually Jerusalem represents God aka the New Jerusalem, Spiritually everything OUTSIDE of Jerusalem is Babylon, Egypt or Sodom. Jesus was crucified OUTSIDE of Jerusalem, Jesus was Spiritually/Allegorically Crucified in Babylon, OUTSIDE the Holy City of God, just as Hebrews describes...

So the point to all this is, what you have been told your entire life and you personally have never studied outside of what you were raised or told to believe in your Church isnt the only perspective on how to interpret Revelation. And as I keep trying to beat into your head, your ideology of how to interpret this did NOT exist until the 1830s. Essentially what you and everyone else who believes in Pre-Millennial Dispensationalism states is that Billions of Christians over the course of a 1800 years never knew how to properly interpret Scripture. It took one man 1800 years later to teach us how to correctly interpret Scriptures...

I just dont buy it, and therefore I have chosen to reject that entire premise and look more to what did the Church believe for hundreds and hundreds of years prior to that man. What I am relating which is completely diminished in Mainstream Christianity, is a view that most Christians never have heard of, let alone studied, because Pre Mil Dispensationalism has been shoved down their throat since they were children.

I have no problem admitting that I could be wrong, because as I have stated over and over, I highly doubt ANY human on the face of the Earth will actually have this right, just as NO human on the face of the Earth understood the First Advent. What I think is funny is that knowing literally ZERO humans in all of existence understood the 1st Advent, we have so many people that are convinced that they know exactly how Jesus 2nd Coming is going to transpire....

 

[Thunderian]

God describes EVERYTHING in physical detail to relate it all to us, that doesnt mean that it what is described comes to pass in the literal fashion in which it is stated.

Here is an example of a Prophecy that is given as literal but wasnt fulfilled literally as stated:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So did the Seed of the Woman literally have his heel bruised? Did the Seed of the Serpent literally have his head bruised? No of course not, that is a literal Prophecy that is SYMBOLIC of the Event of the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus the Seed SPIRITUALLY crushed the head of Satan, even tho Satan PHYSICALLY bruised Christ in His Death.

You must have missed the verse right before that one.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life​

Snakes are cursed to crawl on their bellies, and humanity is cursed with venomous snakes. Genesis 3:15 is about that curse, but is also a declaration of war against Satan, and as you say, it's a prophecy of Jesus Christ's victory in that war. But don't miss the literal fulfillment of the most basic reading of that verse. The snake bites the heel of a man, and a man's heel crushes the head of the snake.

I read the Bible as literal, but not so it doesn't make sense. The Bible makes sense to me. Revelation makes sense to me. I really can't help that you don't understand Revelation, and so all you can do is throw up your hands and say it's "just spiritual".

Actually MOST if not ALL of what you say is Jesus Christ ruling the Earth from the Throne in Jerusalem is actually about the New Heavens and New Earth, you just refuse to accept that these Prophecies ought to be read in CONTEXT of the True Fulfillment that is in sight.

The Bible is clear that there will be a physical reign of Jesus Christ on this earth. Gen. 49:10; 2 Sam. 7:13, 16; Psa. 2:8-9; 72:1-20; 89:4; 110:2-3; Isa. 9:6-7; 11:1-5, 10; Jer. 23:5-6; 30:9; 33:14-17; Ezek. 21:27; 34:23-24; 37:24, 28; Dan. 2:35; 7:14; Hosea 3:5; Amos 9:11-12; Zech. 3:8; 6:12-13; 9:9-10

I mean how does Paul interpret the Bible? Are things literal or are they SYMBOLIC of the Spiritual Realm?

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

There is directly given by Paul of a Prophecy that was given as Literal but fulfilled Allegorical, straight from the Bible itself, not me making it up or my views, that is Paul and that is Scripture. The Literal 2 Sons are actually an Allegory of the Promise being fulfilled SPIRITUALLY thru Christ to those who believe in Faith.

I don't understand your point. Abraham's sons were still real, right?

Obviously they were real, but the Lord is using them as an example for believers. You'll find this happens a lot in scripture. There are types and tropes everywhere in the Bible. I am not sure why you have such trouble with the concepts.

Furthermore what does Paul say almost EVERYTHING in the Old Testament is?

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

All of that is just a shadow of things to come, a shadow of what is fulfilled in Christ. Need more?

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Everything in the Old Testament, all the Priests, the Temple, the things that happened to Israel, the Prophecies, all of it are just shadows of Christ and the SPIRITUAL Reality, which for some reason you want to diminish with your ideologies.

Again, I am struck by how baffled you seem to be by the use of symbols and types in the Bible. Yes, there are examples and shadows of heavenly things depicted in scripture, but where are we ever told this things were never real in the first place? Don't you think any of those things actually happened? Do you believe the Tabernacle was real? Do a study on it sometime. It's a picture of Jesus Christ and salvation, but it was also a literal place where the Hebrews worshiped God.

I would rather follow how Paul interpreted the Bible, how the Early Church interpreted the Bible, than to interpret it by the method that one man invented 1800 yrs after the fact.

The Holy Spirit interprets the Bible. It wasn't until Origen came along that the church started teaching that the Bible was all allegory.

It would do you well to look at the things you want to be for Jesus on this Earth and place it upon Christ in the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH, then you wont have all the illogical nonsense that follows on the heels of your ideology, like Jesus dying to Free Humanity from the Curse of the Law and the Old Covenant, to then almost immediately come back and throw everyone back under it...

I don't believe that. Not sure why you think I do.

IF the Bible defines it, it is what it says, so now it is a matter of has this been fulfilled or is it in the Future or does it Represent more than just Physical Literal Kings. Just as one of the verses I gave you, the Bible defines exactly what is meant, showing outright that it isnt a Literal Woman, Seas ect.

So what is the Woman? If I take it Literal, I personally would take it as Israel, if I take it Spiritually, then I would take it as all the Apostate Religions. And you could easily take it as both considering Israel is an absolute whore that fornicates with the whole world since its inception and continues today, as well as being the centerpiece of all False Religions, as it prostitutes itself with the Ancient Mystery Religions.

So like I said many people have taken that Prophecy as being fulfilled during the Lifetime of John or shortly thereafter, you of course probably have never tried to study out if these Prophecies could have been fulfilled in Johns time or not. I will leave it up to you to search out if these were fulfilled in the Past, me telling you that they have been would do you no use, you wouldnt believe me...

What I can tell you is that almost the Entire Early Church didnt believe what you believe concerning pretty much everything in Revelation...

If you could sum up the rule you follow for interpretation of scripture, what would it be?

So CAN the 2 witness represent something? Is that even possible in your mind? Do these witnesses share any Symbolism to any other Symbols in Revelation?

Lets find out shall we?

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Do these witnesses share this time in common with anything else that is Symbolic in Revelation?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

There are about a dozen references in the Bible to the period of time that equals three and a half years.

Here's one:

James 5:17 - Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.​

Does Elias share characteristics with any other figure in Revelation? Oh look, we're back to the two witnesses.

Revelation 11:6 - These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.​

What do you make of that?

Here's another one, from the same chapter:

Revelation 11:2 - But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.​

Forty and two months is three and half years, or 1260 days. Is the holy city the Church?

Here's another reference to the same period of time, still from Revelation, but this one's kind of scary.

Revelation 13:5 - And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.​

If you're building a case that the two witnesses in Revelation 11 are the woman in Revelation 12, I could build just as strong a case that they are Elijah, Jerusalem, or the Beast.

But let's see where you're going with this. Maybe you can make sense of it somehow.

Do the witnesses share any other Symbolism with anything else as described in Revelation?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So what do you think the Woman and the Candlesticks represent in Revelation? Well according to the idea that the Bible interprets the Bible, we can go back to the same exact Book and see that candlesticks represent what? The Church, and what does the Woman represent? The Church.

The candlestick represents a witness for God. The seven candlesticks represent the churches in chapters 2 and 3, and also The Church, but only in the sense that they are witnesses. The two witnesses are, obviously, also witnesses.

The woman in Revelation 12 cannot be the Church. The Church is only ever portrayed symbolically as a virgin bride, and the woman in Revelation 12 is pregnant with Jesus. Awkward, to say the least, since the Church is Christ's bride, not his mother.

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, and my scriptural authority for this is Jacob's interpretation of Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-10.

So why do you not want to allow the witnesses to Represent the Church as all the Symbolism points too?

Because your interpretation of the symbolism doesn't pass any kind of intelligent scrutiny. Please resubmit.

You say the passage say Jerusalem but it doesnt actually SAY Jerusalem does it? Let us look again, is the name of the city, Jerusalem stated specifically in the text?

Revelation 11:18 -- And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

So straight up in this specific verse it immediately identifies itself to be read SPIRITUALLY, says it outright, but you dont want to do that do you?

Then YOU make the assumption that it says Jerusalem, but it does NOT actually say Jerusalem now does it? Nope...

So do you personally believe that Jerusalem is Spiritually Sodom and Egypt? Is that going to be your perspective and view from now on? Because that would 100% go against your Zionism and ideal that Jerusalem is actually the Apple of Gods eye and blessed ect...

Was Jesus actually killed IN Jerusalem? Lets look at the text from Scripture to discern if Jesus was killed IN Jerusalem:

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Jesus was NOT Crucified IN Jerusalem, He was OUTSIDE of Jerusalem when He was killed as History attests to:

https://bibleatlas.org/golgotha.htm

Also Jerusalem hasnt been called Great in the Bible, the only time in Context any Jerusalem is called Great is the New Jerusalem and I am sure that you wouldnt suggest that Jesus was killed in the New Jerusalem.

So is there any other City that is called Great in the Book of Revelation?

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

So as I stated earlier Spiritually speaking the Woman, which is also described Symbolically as a Great City, is the culmination of all the Apostate False Religions, or Babylon, or as also used Symbolically in Scripture, Egypt and Sodom. THAT makes much more sense than to call actual Jerusalem Spiritually Sodom and Egypt. Spiritually Jerusalem represents God aka the New Jerusalem, Spiritually everything OUTSIDE of Jerusalem is Babylon, Egypt or Sodom. Jesus was crucified OUTSIDE of Jerusalem, Jesus was Spiritually/Allegorically Crucified in Babylon, OUTSIDE the Holy City of God, just as Hebrews describes...

This has to be the silliest thing I've read in ages. Whether he was crucified inside or outside the gates of the city, the city itself was Jerusalem.

So the point to all this is, what you have been told your entire life and you personally have never studied outside of what you were raised or told to believe in your Church isnt the only perspective on how to interpret Revelation. And as I keep trying to beat into your head, your ideology of how to interpret this did NOT exist until the 1830s.

You make a lot of assumptions, one of which is what I was raised to believe. Let's just say you're wrong. My views on scripture are the result of a lot of prayer and study.

And I have responded to your ignorant theory that the Rapture didn't exist until the 1830's on at least one other thread. The Rapture is in the Bible and always has been. It's not my fault you've decided it's not.

 

[phipps]

An interesting thing about the titles used for Jesus in Revelation. In chapters 1-3, the titles used for Jesus Christ are generally related to the New Testament -- the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive, etc, but from chapters 4-18 he is referred to by Jewish, or Old Testament, terms, ie. Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, the Lamb of God.

It may have something to do with the fact that, in chapter 4, John (a type of the Church) is raptured up to Heaven, where the Church, represented by the 24 elders, is seated on thrones around the throne of God. We don't see the Church again until they return to earth with Jesus Christ in chapter 19.

I agree about the titles of Jesus in the book of Revelation except the part of a Church raptured to heaven.

There is no Church that has been raptured to heaven in the Bible or in the book of Revelation. The 24 elders do not represent a Church nor does the book of Revelation say so. The Church of God, i.e God's people, the pure woman or the bride of Christ (Revelation 12), those who "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12), will be on earth until Jesus returns the second time according to Revelation and the whole Bible. The book of Revelation tells us of the persecution His people/the Church faced and will face because of their faith in Him and this will go on until Jesus returns.

Revelation 4:4, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." White denotes righteousness of character. Crowns denote authority, kingship. The Bible tells us that God delegates some authority to His creatures. He permits others to share in His eternal counsels although He does not require it. God is omniscient after all.

Who are the 24 elders? Revelation 5:8-10 says, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God, kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." The twenty four elders say: "You have redeemed us". This indicates that they entered the heavenly temple after calvary because they say, "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

Many think the 24 elders are the saints that were resurrected after Jesus' death written of in Matthew 27:50-53. The apostle Paul, speaking of Jesus' ascension to heaven says, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8. In the margin of the KJV "captivity" reads, "a multitude of captives." So when Jesus ascended to heaven, He "led a multitude of captives". I too think the 24 elders are those saints but Revelation does not tell us who the 24 elders are.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I agree about the titles of Jesus in the book of Revelation except the part of a Church raptured to heaven.

There is no Church that has been raptured to heaven in the Bible or in the book of Revelation. The 24 elders do not represent a Church nor does the book of Revelation say so. The Church of God, i.e God's people, the pure woman or the bride of Christ (Revelation 12), those who "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12), will be on earth until Jesus returns the second time according to Revelation and the whole Bible. The book of Revelation tells us of the persecution His people/the Church faced and will face because of their faith in Him and this will go on until Jesus returns.

Revelation 4:4, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." White denotes righteousness of character. Crowns denote authority, kingship. The Bible tells us that God delegates some authority to His creatures. He permits others to share in His eternal counsels although He does not require it. God is omniscient after all.

Who are the 24 elders? Revelation 5:8-10 says, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God, kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." The twenty four elders say: "You have redeemed us". This indicates that they entered the heavenly temple after calvary because they say, "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

Many think the 24 elders are the saints that were resurrected after Jesus' death written of in Matthew 27:50-53. The apostle Paul, speaking of Jesus' ascension to heaven says, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8. In the margin of the KJV "captivity" reads, "a multitude of captives." So when Jesus ascended to heaven, He "led a multitude of captives". I too think the 24 elders are those saints but Revelation does not tell us who the 24 elders are.

“US”, “THEM” and the 24 Elders

Part 1

Part 2

 

[phipps]

“US”, “THEM” and the 24 Elders

Part 1

Part 2

I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture and its not a biblical teaching. Jesus will return once for His people and everyone will know. It will not be a secret at all.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:

Revelation 6:16-17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Matthew 24:27, "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

1 Corinthians 15:52, "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."

Psalm 50:3, "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."

Revelation 1:7, "Every eye shall see him. "

Matthew 24:30, "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31, "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.