Revelation

Thunderian

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Right on.

I've been thinking lately about all the prophecy that's come true so far. Things like the seed of the woman, a virgin conceiving, a global flood, for Pete's sake. How crazy these promises of God must have seemed to people reading them a few thousand years ago. Sarah laughed at the thought she would bear a child, and so did Elisabeth. Jesus' disciples couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that he would die and then live again. Etc ...

So when I see people who can read the plain words of God in front of them, and then are still able to look up and say, "Nope! Not gonna happen like that at all!", I have to wonder ... Have they been paying attention? Jesus fulfilled around 300 prophecies concerning himself, but he still has quite a few more to go. What makes people think the rest won't come true as literally as the first 300 did?
 
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I have said before on the end times thread that I think that the first two seals are already opened. I’m not sure this is the type of talk you are wanting for this thread though or if you are instead wanting to decipher it.

Also are we bringing other books with prophetic verses that line up with Revelation in or are you just keeping to the book of Revelation?
Why do you think the first two seals are opened?

I think that is impossible, because when the 1st seal is opened, that’s when the Antichrist goes to conquer.

Obviously he hasn’t appeared yet.

The 2nd seal opening is when the entire world goes to war.

That hasn’t happened yet either.
 

TokiEl

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Let's look at the first four seals. Keep in mind this is an endtime vision.


Revelation 6 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

A rider on a white horse with a bow and a crown conquering without sword arrows or war.


Revelation 6 3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

A rider on a red horse with a great sword causing people to rise up in riots and revolutions and to kill one another


Revelation 6 5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

A rider on a black horse with a pair of scales rationing necessities like wheat and barley for a steep price.


Revelation 6 7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

A rider named Death on a green horse followed by Hades with power over a fourth of the earth to kill with war hunger death and beasts.


The rider named Death on a green horse with Hell following were given the power over a fourth of the earth. In other words one quarter of the people of the earth are under the power of the rider named Death with Hell on his heels.

A fourth of the earth under the power of Death and Hell. Who could that be ?
 

TokiEl

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Why do you think the first two seals are opened?

I think that is impossible, because when the 1st seal is opened, that’s when the Antichrist goes to conquer.

Obviously he hasn’t appeared yet.

The 2nd seal opening is when the entire world goes to war.

That hasn’t happened yet either.
The Antichrist has obviously appeared and the entire world has gone to war at least two times already. Where are you living ?
 
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Who are the ten kings?
I actually agree with Toki on this.

The ten horns represent ten kings who give their power over to the beast. .....

(The beast being referred to here is the Antichrist one-world global government.)

.....I believe this represents the 10 non-permanent members of the UN Security Council...there are 5 permanent members (the US being one of them) & 10 non-permanent members. These 10 will hand over their power to the beast.
 
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The Antichrist has obviously appeared and the entire world has gone to war at least two times already. Where are you living ?
The world hasn’t ended yet, Christ hasn’t returned, so whoever you think the Antichrist is who has come & gone, is not THE (final) Antichrist, and the Bible says there will come “many” antichrists, but not THE Antichrist of Revelation, the man of perdition.

The Antichrist of Revelation has NOT come yet.
 

TokiEl

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I actually agree with Toki on this.

The ten horns represent ten kings who give their power over to the beast. .....

(The beast being referred to here is the Antichrist one-world global government.)

.....I believe this represents the 10 non-permanent members of the UN Security Council...there are 5 permanent members (the US being one of them) & 10 non-permanent members. These 10 will hand over their power to the beast.
For the record i don't believe the ten kings are the ten non permanent two year terms UN Security Council members.

The powerful players at the Club of Rome have divided the earth into ten regions. And so ten kings that is of royal blood are waiting in the wings to take the reign over their region... after the destruction of the great city Babylon which now reigns over the kings of the earth.

The UN is the only visible organisation who can be said to reign over the kings of the earth and their headquarter is in New York City.
 

TokiEl

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The world hasn’t ended yet, Christ hasn’t returned, so whoever you think the Antichrist is who has come & gone, is not THE (final) Antichrist, and the Bible says there will come “many” antichrists, but not THE Antichrist of Revelation, the man of perdition.

The Antichrist of Revelation has NOT come yet.
There is no Antichrist in the book of Revelation.

There is a seven headed beast with ten horns and a beast looking like a lamb with two horns. And there is a false prophet. From Daniel there is a little horn who will uproot three of the ten horns or kings.

The son of perdition is a term from Paul and that term was also used about Judas who betrayed Jesus. And a case can be made that since the unrestricted advancements of technology that man of sin has been revealed through TV. The Vicar of Christ sitting as if he is God in the temple of God... although he is neither.

.
 
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For the record i don't believe the ten kings are the ten non permanent two year terms UN Security Council members.

The powerful players at the Club of Rome have divided the earth into ten regions. And so ten kings that is of royal blood are waiting in the wings to take the reign over their region... after the destruction of the great city Babylon which now reigns over the kings of the earth.

The UN is the only visible organisation who can be said to reign over the kings of the earth and their headquarter is in New York City.
Why do you assume the 10 kings must be of “royal” blood?

When I said I agree with you, I was referring to your statement below from post #18:

“Which city reigns over the kings of the earth ? Well the kings of the earth more or less take their orders from the United Nations which headquarters is in New York City.”
 

phipps

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@Thunderian

Whatever their role, you believe the 24 elders are NOT the Church. Right?
No, they are not the Church and I believe it because the Bible never says they are the Church.

Yes, Shem's life and Abraham's apparently would have overlapped by about 140 years. This site has a lot of information, but I don't vouch for anything they say.
Right, but the Bible doesn't give any indication that he is Shem.

No, I'm not. Revelation 4:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are describing the same event. 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of the Harpazo, or Rapture. Jesus appears in the clouds, with a shout and the sound of a trumpet, and catches believers up to Heaven.
No they are not. You have taken Revelation 4:1 and separated it from the rest of the chapter. They are not talking about the same thing if you read the whole of Revelation 4.

In Revelation 4:1 John hears a voice like a trumpet telling him to "come up hither", and he is taken up into Heaven to where Jesus is. In both instances, believers on earth are instantly taken up to be with Jesus.
A trumpet like voice is not a trumpet sound. Its a voice that sounds like a trumpet. In I Thessalonians 4 a trumpet is blown. Its not a trumpet like voice. That sound of the trumpet raises the dead who are asleep. Then the dead along with those who are alive go up in the air to meet the Lord. In Revelation 4 no one meets Jesus in the air because He is in the heavenly temple.

Whether it's someone blowing a trumpet, or it's the sound of a trumpet, in my opinion the passages are too similar to ignore.
This is the mistake you're making. You are using your opinion not using the Bible to explain itself. The only way they those verses are similar to you is because you've taken Revelation 4:1 out of context.

I don't know how you got the idea that I am mixing things up here. Chapter 4 of Revelation is clearly set in Heaven's throne room, but it's verse one that shows how John gets there. Is John in Heaven in verse o
Revelation 4 in context is not about any rapture. I know I'm repeating myself but you have taken verse 1 out of context. Do not separate it from the rest of the chapter. When you read the whole chapter in context, it quickly becomes clear that verse 1 is not about Jesus' return.

It does not harmonize at all with Matthew 24:31.
Mat 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I know you won't agree, but Matthew 24:29-31 is about the Second Advent of Jesus Christ, and the redemption and salvation of Israel. Jesus won't return until Israel repents and calls for him. At the end of the Tribulation, Israel cries out for the Lord, and he answers.
All the verses you've put up here match up with what will happen just before Jesus returns and when He returns the second time. They just give us more clues here and there about what will happen. There is only going to be one rapture of God's people, the Church, and that is when He comes back the second time. Matthew 24:29 and 30 match with Revelation 6:12-17 which is what happens during the sixth seal.

No I don't agree about the redemption of Israel because it is not biblical. It is a man made doctrine not based in the Bible. Israel are in the same boat as all of us. If they accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and obey His precepts they will be saved as all of us who choose to do the same. They are not going to get special treatment at all and God is not going to wait for them to repent. God does not favour them over the rest of the world. They get the same chances as we all do. This is biblical.

Verse 29 speaks of the events that occur after the opening of the seven seals. Since you seem to accept that verse 31 is speaking of a future event, I wonder how you can still insist that the events of Revelation have passed. Either way, verse 31 doesn't jibe with 1 Thessalonians 4. In 1 Thessalonians, we are caught to meet Jesus in the air, but in Matthew 24, Jesus sends his angels to gather his elect. If you are going to quibble about the sound of a trumpet being completely different than a voice like a trumpet, I am certainly not going to let you tell me that there is no difference between Jesus sending his angels to get me, or coming and getting me himself!
In the NKJV the heading for Matthew 24:29-31 is "The coming of the son of man." These verses are speaking about what will happen when Jesus returns the second time. Verse 31 says, "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." This matches what I Thessalonians 4:16-17 and I Corinthians 15:52.

You miss another crucial point from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. When Jesus returns the second time, He will stay in the air. He won't touch the earth. Jesus will remain in the clouds above the earth at His second coming. The righteous dead and those that alive will go up to Him in the air. So Jesus sending the angels to gather His people is not far fetched especially if you read Matthew 25:31, “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.” He is coming with all the angels from heaven. Matthew 24:31 tells us what the angels are going to do when Jesus blows the trumpet. They will gather the elect. Its just more information on what will happen when Jesus returns.

And yes most events of Revelation have passed and I explained to you that the seven seals, the seven trumpets and the seven churches is what happens to God's people in different periods until Jesus returns. I'll give you an example of the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-13, "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. This part has already been fulfilled. It needs more explanation that I can't go into here right now.

Revelation 6-14-17, "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" These verses are not yet fulfilled because they are the events that occur when Jesus returns. The heavens will be rolled back “as a scroll,” and the earth will be in a state of violent upheaval. But this is the sixth seal and its in this seal and time period that Jesus returns in. So doesn't it make sense that the other seals and time periods have been fulfilled? The seventh seal has only one verse and its this, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." Revelation 8:1. What does this mean? We know from the sixth seal that Jesus returns. The seventh seal precedes Jesus' return. So heaven is silent because Jesus and the angels have left, they are coming to earth. They are coming for the followers of Jesus to take us back to our heavenly home. This harmonises with Matthew 25:31 does it not? I love how the Bible harmonises. Its no coincidence. Its truly the Word of God.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]

I didn't say Revelation 4 takes place on earth. But where do you think John is before he is told to come up to Heaven in verse one?
John is on earth but in vision, he does not go to heaven.

Obviously, that's not the way I see it. :)
Well, the Bible doesn't teach it how you see it.
 
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TokiEl

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Why do you assume the 10 kings must be of “royal” blood?
Royal or blue blood is from the nephilim who were the children of angels. From old at least it was this line who used to be kings and queens over the nations.


When I said I agree with you, I was referring to your statement below from post #18:

“Which city reigns over the kings of the earth ? Well the kings of the earth more or less take their orders from the United Nations which headquarters is in New York City.”
If the great city Babylon is New York City it is best to come out of her.
 
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There is no Antichrist in the book of Revelation.

There is a seven headed beast with ten horns and a beast looking like a lamb with two horns. And there is a false prophet. From Daniel there is a little horn who will uproot three of the ten horns or kings.

The son of perdition is a term from Paul and that term was also used about Judas who betrayed Jesus. And a case can be made that since the unrestricted advancements of technology that man of sin has been revealed through TV. The Vicar of Christ sitting as if he is God in the temple of God... although he is neither.

.
“And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.“.....Revelation 6:2 (KJB)


“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”.....1 John 2:18 (KJB)
 
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Royal or blue blood is from the nephilim who were the children of angels. From old at least it was this line who used to be kings and queens over the nations.

.
Not the Nephilim again.

There’s no such thing.
I’ve proven this from the Bible before.

The entire Nephilim deception is rooted in people misunderstanding what the term “sons of God” means.

It is describing a saved person/saint.
 

Allegra

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whoever against Christ is called antichrist cuz they are led by the spirit of antichrist. There are many of it but THE antichrist is called the beast in the book of revelation. The beast is called THE antichrist cuz he is uttering haughty and blasphemous words. If not the antichrist then what do u want? :V anti-god? same thing.

Rev 13:5 And the beast was given mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

The Bible teaches that the world will eventually produce a world ruler, called “the beast” in Revelation, who will wield great power and demand worship of himself. He will have “a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies” (Revelation 13:5) and is empowered by Satan (verse 2). He is called “the man of lawlessness . . . the man doomed to destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. This final Antichrist will be the culmination of the evil workings of Satan throughout the centuries. The Antichrist of the end times will embody all the deception and perversion of truth that the spirit of the antichrist has always promoted. Today, “the secret power of lawlessness is already at work” (verse 7). The same spirit that will empower the Antichrist of the last days is currently operating in the world to bring confusion and deception to the issue of Jesus Christ’s person and work. “This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world” (1 John 4:3).
 

TokiEl

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“And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.“.....Revelation 6:2 (KJB)


“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”.....1 John 2:18 (KJB)
The term Antichrist is only found in the first and second letter of John... and not in the book of Revelation.

According to 1 John 2:18-19 antichrists came out of christianity.

Therefore the Antichrist is probably the christian impostor.
 

TokiEl

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Not the Nephilim again.

There’s no such thing.
I’ve proven this from the Bible before.

The entire Nephilim deception is rooted in people misunderstanding what the term “sons of God” means.

It is describing a saved person/saint.
Your pride and prejudice fail you yet again.
 
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