Revelation

Red Sky at Morning

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I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture and its not a biblical teaching. Jesus will return once for His people and everyone will know. It will not be a secret at all.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:

Revelation 6:16-17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Matthew 24:27, "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

1 Corinthians 15:52, "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."

Psalm 50:3, "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."

Revelation 1:7, "Every eye shall see him. "

Matthew 24:30, "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31, "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I would not be one to claim that the Rapture would be a secret once it had happened. Mass Alien abductions and Zombie Apocalypse would be headline news for some time!
 
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phipps

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I would not be one to claim that the Rapture would be a secret once it had happened. Mass Alien abductions and Zombie Apocalypse would be headline news for some time!
Are there different beliefs within those who believe in pre-trib? I only know of the one belief of Jesus returning twice. One will be secret and one won't.
 

Thunderian

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I agree about the titles of Jesus in the book of Revelation except the part of a Church raptured to heaven.

There is no Church that has been raptured to heaven in the Bible or in the book of Revelation. The 24 elders do not represent a Church nor does the book of Revelation say so. The Church of God, i.e God's people, the pure woman or the bride of Christ (Revelation 12), those who "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12), will be on earth until Jesus returns the second time according to Revelation and the whole Bible. The book of Revelation tells us of the persecution His people/the Church faced and will face because of their faith in Him and this will go on until Jesus returns.

Revelation 4:4, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." White denotes righteousness of character. Crowns denote authority, kingship. The Bible tells us that God delegates some authority to His creatures. He permits others to share in His eternal counsels although He does not require it. God is omniscient after all.

Who are the 24 elders? Revelation 5:8-10 says, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God, kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." The twenty four elders say: "You have redeemed us". This indicates that they entered the heavenly temple after calvary because they say, "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

Many think the 24 elders are the saints that were resurrected after Jesus' death written of in Matthew 27:50-53. The apostle Paul, speaking of Jesus' ascension to heaven says, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8. In the margin of the KJV "captivity" reads, "a multitude of captives." So when Jesus ascended to heaven, He "led a multitude of captives". I too think the 24 elders are those saints but Revelation does not tell us who the 24 elders are.
The elders say to the Lord, [Thou] hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


So yes, the elders are post-Calvary saints -- the Church. The Church, Melchizedek, and Jesus Christ are the only ones in the Bible who are both kings and priests, and the Church are the only ones who will reign on the earth with Jesus Christ.
 

Thunderian

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Are there different beliefs within those who believe in pre-trib? I only know of the one belief of Jesus returning twice. One will be secret and one won't.
I think there are varying beliefs within the pre-trib camp, but the concept of any "secret" Rapture is not one I had heard of until I started conversations with people who were against the idea of a Rapture at all. As far as I know, the Bible doesn't say it will be a secret, or that it won't be.
 

elsbet

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So believe that Satan is going to be literally bound with literal chains in the literal bottomless pit?

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Does Jesus have a literal Sword coming out of His mouth?

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The Angel stands in the literal middle of the literal Sun?

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

The people will be literally destroyed by the literal sword that comes out of the literal mouth of Jesus?

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Does the Judgement literally come in one day? ( I mean you perspective definitely doesnt allow for Judgement to come in one day that is for sure)

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Is it every shipman and company of ships and sailors going to literally stand in the seas and watch the literal city burn, and wail and moan about it? And does it happen in one hour?

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city
!

Is this a literal woman, sitting upon a literal beast? Is she literally wearing clothes with many colors and literally holding a cup?

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication
:

Is every Mountain and Island literally fleeting and disappearing?

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

A literal beast, rising from the literal sea?

Rev 13:13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

A literal beast rising from the literal earth?

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

A literal woman clothed with the literal Sun, with the literal moon under her literal feet, with a literal crown with literal stars? And she gave literal birth to a literal child?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered
.

The literal woman fled into a literal wilderness?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Literal woman, literal dragon, literal man child, literal wings, literal eagle, literal fly, literal wilderness? But the times, times and time and a half is a literal number?

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

John ate a literal book that tasted like literal honey and made him sick?

Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

In none of these verses are the words Like or As, so according to your logic, if it is consistent, then all of these passages are all describing literal events, as they literally happen, by the literal people or things described in the verses. If you say they dont, that they are SYMBOLIC, then why are you doubting God?

Here is the facts, the facts are Revelation is an entire book written in SYMBOLISM, 99% of everything written is written SYMBOLICALLY and NOT Literally. Are there a FEW things that are literal? Sure, and why do we accept when they are literal as opposed to Symbolic? When in other passages throughout the Bible they are described as Literal. The most obvious example is the literal Lake of Fire, Jesus speaks of it existing as literally, the rest of the Bible testifies of it literally so we know that John, pulling from these examples is speaking of a literal Lake of Fire.

The opposite example is the Mark of the Beast, is it literal? Many people believe it is, however when we look back in Scripture is there ever a time that describes someone being marked that is parallel to this idea of the Mark of the Beast?

Ez 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.


11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

So do we really think a literal man clothed in literal linen had a literal inkhorn and literally went out into the city and literally marked the foreheads of people?

Of course not, it is ALL SYMBOLIC of the Judgement of God upon Israel at that time, and the ones who were spared being the ones who were crying to heaven for Redemption from the Evil Men who were bringing Israel down.

THAT is definitely the imagery that John is pulling from, just like the rest of Revelation is drenched in imagery from the Old Testament, so what most of you think is literal is just Symbolism, but it is hard for people to be moved from the brainwashing they have been told their entire lives concerning Eschatology.

As I have said dozens of times now, almost NO ONE in the History of the Church believed in the literalism present in Modern Christianity concerning Eschatology until John Nelson Darby created his ideology, that has been adopted by all most all of Mainstream Christianity.

EVERYONE until then read Revelation as 99% Symbolic, and almost NO ONE believed in a Literal 1000 year Reign of Christ on the Earth...

Getting this across to certain people tho is basically impossible...
Not a good example of your stance.

This is the description of a VISION seen in the Spirit... we're given that information going into the passage. The "sword" is a reference to Hebrews 4.. the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword...
 

phipps

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I think there are varying beliefs within the pre-trib camp, but the concept of any "secret" Rapture is not one I had heard of until I started conversations with people who were against the idea of a Rapture at all. As far as I know, the Bible doesn't say it will be a secret, or that it won't be.
Thanks, I didn't know that. I always thought they all had one belief about the rapture.
 
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phipps

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The elders say to the Lord, [Thou] hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


So yes, the elders are post-Calvary saints -- the Church. The Church, Melchizedek, and Jesus Christ are the only ones in the Bible who are both kings and priests, and the Church are the only ones who will reign on the earth with Jesus Christ.
You're right, the 24 elders are "kings and priests" indicating that they are of the order of Melchizedek priesthood of which Jesus is the High Priest. They are not a Church, they are a priesthood. They are priest-kings meaning assistant priests. They are assisting Jesus in the heavenly temple as they did in the earthly temple that was patterned on the heavenly temple. In the earthly sanctuary/temple as you know I'm sure, there were two orders of the priesthood. The Melchizedek and the Levitical. The Melchizedek order was higher than the Levitical order. In Abraham’s day the priest Melchizedek was king of Salem as well as priest of the Most High God. (Gen.14:17-20) Although there is not much said in the Bible of the Melchizedek order of the priesthood, it was superior to the Levitical order, for Christ was made a priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 6:20).

However Revelation does not say the 24 elders represent the Church that was raptured. No Church has been raptured. Symbolically they represent the character of true Christians who will be saved when Jesus returns and they will reign with Him too. We have to be careful with the book of Revelation because we are admonished, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" Revelation 22:18.

God does not need counsellors or rulers, yet He shares His counsel with His created beings. He is not a dictator, He is not autocratic. In the book of Job we read about a meeting in heaven that was held. It says, " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them." Job 1:6. As intelligent creatures share in His counsels, they come to learn and to know God. Lucifer, before he fell, shared in the rulership of the universe. Lucifer declared, "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." It appears Lucifer had a throne and some power but wanted God's throne and power. Many other angels also have ruling power in God's kingdom. The apostle Paul says, "...unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places" What is a principality? A domain ruled over by a prince. We are told that we shall be priests and reign with Christ in heaven too.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Revelation 20:6.

Our God is a great sharer. He shares His rule, He shares His counsel. What a wonderful God.
 
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elsbet

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You're right, the 24 elders are "kings and priests" indicating that they are of the order of Melchizedek priesthood of which Jesus is the High Priest. They are priest-kings meaning assistant priests. They are assisting Jesus in the heavenly temple as they did in the earthly temple that was patterned on the heavenly temple. In the earthly sanctuary/temple as you know I'm sure, there were two orders of the priesthood. The Melchizedek and the Levitical. The Melchizedek order was higher than the Levitical order. In Abraham’s day the priest Melchizedek was king of Salem as well as priest of the Most High God. (Gen.14:17-20) Although there is not much said in the Bible of the Melchizedek order of the priesthood, it was superior to the Levitical order, for Christ was made a priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 6:20).

However Revelation does not say the 24 elders represent the Church. We have to be careful with the book of Revelation because we are admonished, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" Revelation 22:18.

God does not need counsellors or rulers, yet He shares His counsel with His created beings. He is not a dictator, He is not autocratic. In the book of job we read about a meeting in heaven that was held. It says, " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them." Job 1:6. As intelligent creatures share in His counsels, they come to learn and to know God. Lucifer, before he fell, shared in the rulership of the universe. Lucifer declared, "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." It appears Lucifer had a throne and some power but wanted God'd throne and power. Many other angels also have ruling power in God's kingdom. The apostle Paul says, "...unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places" What is a principality? a domain ruled over by a prince. Our God is a great sharer. He shares His rule, He shares His counsel.
I'm a little surprised you posted that... not a bad thing though! I think Psalm 82 shows this, as well, when God addresses the ones who fell.
PSALM 82 ESV
God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:​

“How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked?​
Selah​

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”​
They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.​
I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.
”​
Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!​
 

Thunderian

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Thanks, I didn't know that. I always thought they all had one belief about the rapture.
I can't vouch for what everyone who defines themselves as pre-trib believes. Some believe in a partial Rapture, but I don't know what scripture they would use for that. If all believers are one body, how do some go and some stay?
 

Thunderian

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You're right, the 24 elders are "kings and priests" indicating that they are of the order of Melchizedek priesthood of which Jesus is the High Priest. They are not a Church, they are a priesthood. They are priest-kings meaning assistant priests. They are assisting Jesus in the heavenly temple as they did in the earthly temple that was patterned on the heavenly temple.
Wait a minute. The Bible says in 1 Peter 2 that believers in Jesus Christ are a holy and royal priesthood, and in 2 Timothy 2:12 that believers in Jesus Christ will reign with him. Ephesians 2:6 tells us that God "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

Read Revelation 4 again. The setting is the throne room of God, not just the heavenly temple. The 24 elders are also seated on thrones.

Do you still think the 24 elders are just assistant priests?

In the earthly sanctuary/temple as you know I'm sure, there were two orders of the priesthood. The Melchizedek and the Levitical. The Melchizedek order was higher than the Levitical order. In Abraham’s day the priest Melchizedek was king of Salem as well as priest of the Most High God. (Gen.14:17-20) Although there is not much said in the Bible of the Melchizedek order of the priesthood, it was superior to the Levitical order, for Christ was made a priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 6:20).
I find the character of Melchizedek very fascinating. The rabbinical tradition is that he was Noah's son Shem.

However Revelation does not say the 24 elders represent the Church that was raptured. No Church has been raptured. Symbolically they represent the character of true Christians who will be saved when Jesus returns and they will reign with Him too. We have to be careful with the book of Revelation because we are admonished, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" Revelation 22:18.
I hope you see that I actually have considered my points of view, and I don't hold to anything I can't support with scripture. I think I have put up a pretty decent argument for the 24 elders being the Church, and since I believe, based on other scripture, that the Church will be Raptured, I am confident in believing that those elders are, in fact, the Raptured Church.

It doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for that point of view when I read, in the very first verse of the same chapter,

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​

It reminds me a lot of another passage, about a voice and a trumpet and a command from the Lord,

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

I find the symbolism in Revelation 4 to be very much in line with the pre-tribulational view of the Rapture of the Church.
 
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phipps

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Wait a minute. The Bible says in 1 Peter 2 that believers in Jesus Christ are a holy and royal priesthood, and in 2 Timothy 2:12 that believers in Jesus Christ will reign with him. Ephesians 2:6 tells us that God "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

Read Revelation 4 again. The setting is the throne room of God, not just the heavenly temple. The 24 elders are also seated on thrones.

Do you still think the 24 elders are just assistant priests?



I find the character of Melchizedek very fascinating. The rabbinical tradition is that he was Noah's son Shem.



I hope you see that I actually have considered my points of view, and I don't hold to anything I can't support with scripture. I think I have put up a pretty decent argument for the 24 elders being the Church, and since I believe, based on other scripture, that the Church will be Raptured, I am confident in believing that those elders are, in fact, the Raptured Church.

It doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for that point of view when I read, in the very first verse of the same chapter,

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​

It reminds me a lot of another passage, about a voice and a trumpet and a command from the Lord,


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​



Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

I find the symbolism in Revelation 4 to be very much in line with the pre-tribulational view of the Rapture of the Church.
Wait a minute. The Bible says in 1 Peter 2 that believers in Jesus Christ are a holy and royal priesthood, and in 2 Timothy 2:12 that believers in Jesus Christ will reign with him. Ephesians 2:6 tells us that God "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

Read Revelation 4 again. The setting is the throne room of God, not just the heavenly temple. The 24 elders are also seated on thrones.

Do you still think the 24 elders are just assistant priests?
No they are not just assistant priests, they are kings and have crowns as I explained in my previous post and as Revelation 4 says. Much of the Old Testament law and even the history of Israel can be understood as earthly symbols representing heavenly places, people, or events. As Aaron was the high priest in Israel and had 24 elders to help him, so Christ is the heavenly High Priest and He also has 24 elders to officiate with Him. So the 24 elders are assistants priests and kings in the temple. They have various roles in heaven.

I find the character of Melchizedek very fascinating. The rabbinical tradition is that he was Noah's son Shem.
Yes they are fascinating and we don't know much about them. I don't know if he was Noah's son Shem. Would any of Noah's sons be alive during Abraham's time? What I know is Melchizedek was king of Salem as well as priest of the Most High God and Abraham paid tithe to him (Genesis 14:17-20).

]I hope you see that I actually have considered my points of view, and I don't hold to anything I can't support with scripture. I think I have put up a pretty decent argument for the 24 elders being the Church, and since I believe, based on other scripture, that the Church will be Raptured, I am confident in believing that those elders are, in fact, the Raptured Church.

It doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for that point of view when I read, in the very first verse of the same chapter,

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​
It reminds me a lot of another passage, about a voice and a trumpet and a command from the Lord,​


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​



Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​
You are mixing up the settings of Revelation 4 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

Revelation 4:1 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." So in vision John saw "a door...opened in heaven;". The setting for Revelation 4 is heaven, to be precise, the heavenly temple. You remember I told you that Revelation 4 and 5 are the introductory scenes to the vision of the seven seals. We are first shown scenes in heaven before the seals are opened in Chapter 6 by Christ. Back to verse 1, then John heard a voice as it were a trumpet talking with him. A trumpet wasn't being played, someone was speaking to John in a trumpet like voice.

In I Thessalonians 4 it is clear a trumpet is blown and who is blowing the trumpet as I explained in my forum about Michael the Archangel. The Archangel is Jesus Himself and it will be Him and only Him who will raise the righteous dead when He returns the second time. It is also clear that the scenes of 1 Thessalonians 4 will take place here on earth.

Why don't we start from verse 13-18, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." I know its obvious but in heaven no one is asleep. Only here on earth are the righteous asleep in their graves waiting for Jesus to awake them to eternal life. And only here on earth will those who will still be alive be caught up to together with those who were dead and go together to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 harmonises with 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

It harmonises with Matthew 24:31 too that says, "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I find the symbolism in Revelation 4 to be very much in line with the pre-tribulational view of the Rapture of the Church.
So these verses you put up cannot support pre-trib. One scene is in heaven in Revelation 4 and the other on earth 1 Thessalonians 4. There was no Church raptured to heaven. I explained what God's Church is and it will be here on earth until Jesus returns. The whole of Revelation is about what God's Church or people go through, through the ages, those who persecute them and what will happen to them at the end.
 
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TokiEl

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The book of Revelation is not completely chronological.

And needless to say that's why many miss the mark.

For example they think there must be a rapture of the church before the first seal is opened because early in the book John bless his heart heard a trumpet voice commanding him up to the throneroom of Heaven where he was shown what he wrote.


The opening of the seven seals are of course chronological but also there things might be written to its conclusion and so not in order. For example the multitude from the great tribulation in Rev 7 does not necessarily mean that the multitude will escape and so not endure the great tribulation on earth.
 

Thunderian

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The book of Revelation is not completely chronological.

And needless to say that's why many miss the mark.

For example they think there must be a rapture of the church before the first seal is opened because early in the book John bless his heart heard a trumpet voice commanding him up to the throneroom of Heaven where he was shown what he wrote.


The opening of the seven seals are of course chronological but also there things might be written to its conclusion and so not in order. For example the multitude from the great tribulation in Rev 7 does not necessarily mean that the multitude will escape and so not endure the great tribulation on earth.
Have you actually read the book?

In chapter 4, John is taken to the throne room, where Jesus sits on the throne of God. In chapter 5, Jesus is holding a scroll with seven seals. In chapter 6, Jesus begins opening the seals. What part of that do I have out of chronology?
 

TokiEl

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The seven trumpets in Rev 8-11 must be the same as the seven bowls in Rev 16.

Therefore what is written in Rev 12-15 will more than likely take place before the opening of the 7th seal.
 

TokiEl

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Have you actually read the book?

In chapter 4, John is taken to the throne room, where Jesus sits on the throne of God. In chapter 5, Jesus is holding a scroll with seven seals. In chapter 6, Jesus begins opening the seals. What part of that do I have out of chronology?
No i've not had time to read it yet.

Just because John goes up to the throneroom before the opening of the first seal does not mean that the body of believers do as well.

That was my main point and the second point still stands...the book is not completely chronological.
 

Thunderian

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No i've not had time to read it yet.
I know you must be joking, but please tell me you're not.

Just because John goes up to the throneroom before the opening of the first seal does not mean that the body of believers do as well.

That was my main point and the second point still stands...the book is not completely chronological.
So how does the lack of chronological order do damage to the pre-trib Rapture doctrine?
 

TokiEl

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I know you must be joking, but please tell me you're not.
Even without reading it i know more about it than anybody else. L0L


So how does the lack of chronological order do damage to the pre-trib Rapture doctrine?
The resurrection is said to be at the last trump... and there are seven trumps in the book of Revelation. Although there is a sealing of 144 000 at the time of God's wrath that is the opening of the 6th seal.
 

Thunderian

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No they are not just assistant priests, they are kings and have crowns as I explained in my previous post and as Revelation 4 says. Much of the Old Testament law and even the history of Israel can be understood as earthly symbols representing heavenly places, people, or events. As Aaron was the high priest in Israel and had 24 elders to help him, so Christ is the heavenly High Priest and He also has 24 elders to officiate with Him. So the 24 elders are assistants priests and kings in the temple. They have various roles in heaven.
Whatever their role, you believe the 24 elders are NOT the Church. Right?

Yes they are fascinating and we don't know much about them. I don't know if he was Noah's son Shem. Would any of Noah's sons be alive during Abraham's time? What I know is Melchizedek was king of Salem as well as priest of the Most High God and Abraham paid tithe to him (Genesis 14:17-20).
Yes, Shem's life and Abraham's apparently would have overlapped by about 140 years. This site has a lot of information, but I don't vouch for anything they say.
You are mixing up the settings of Revelation 4 and 1 Thessalonians 4.
No, I'm not. Revelation 4:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are describing the same event. 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of the Harpazo, or Rapture. Jesus appears in the clouds, with a shout and the sound of a trumpet, and catches believers up to Heaven. In Revelation 4:1 John hears a voice like a trumpet telling him to "come up hither", and he is taken up into Heaven to where Jesus is. In both instances, believers on earth are instantly taken up to be with Jesus.

Revelation 4:1
says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." So in vision John saw "a door...opened in heaven;". The setting for Revelation 4 is heaven, to be precise, the heavenly temple. You remember I told you that Revelation 4 and 5 are the introductory scenes to the vision of the seven seals. We are first shown scenes in heaven before the seals are opened in Chapter 6 by Christ. Back to verse 1, then John heard a voice as it were a trumpet talking with him. A trumpet wasn't being played, someone was speaking to John in a trumpet like voice.

In I Thessalonians 4 it is clear a trumpet is blown and who is blowing the trumpet as I explained in my forum about Michael the Archangel. The Archangel is Jesus Himself and it will be Him and only Him who will raise the righteous dead when He returns the second time. It is also clear that the scenes of 1 Thessalonians 4 will take place here on earth.
Whether it's someone blowing a trumpet, or it's the sound of a trumpet, in my opinion the passages are too similar to ignore.

Why don't we start from verse 13-18, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." I know its obvious but in heaven no one is asleep. Only here on earth are the righteous asleep in their graves waiting for Jesus to awake them to eternal life. And only here on earth will those who will still be alive be caught up to together with those who were dead and go together to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 harmonises with 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."


I don't know how you got the idea that I am mixing things up here. Chapter 4 of Revelation is clearly set in Heaven's throne room, but it's verse one that shows how John gets there. Is John in Heaven in verse o

It harmonises with
Matthew 24:31 too that says, "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


It does not harmonize at all with Matthew 24:31.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:​
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

I know you won't agree, but Matthew 24:29-31 is about the Second Advent of Jesus Christ, and the redemption and salvation of Israel. Jesus won't return until Israel repents and calls for him. At the end of the Tribulation, Israel cries out for the Lord, and he answers.

Verse 29 speaks of the events that occur after the opening of the seven seals. Since you seem to accept that verse 31 is speaking of a future event, I wonder how you can still insist that the events of Revelation have passed. Either way, verse 31 doesn't jibe with 1 Thessalonians 4. In 1 Thessalonians, we are caught to meet Jesus in the air, but in Matthew 24, Jesus sends his angels to gather his elect. If you are going to quibble about the sound of a trumpet being completely different than a voice like a trumpet, I am certainly not going to let you tell me that there is no difference between Jesus sending his angels to get me, or coming and getting me himself!

So these verses you put up cannot support pre-trib. One scene is in heaven in Revelation 4 and the other on earth 1 Thessalonians 4.
I didn't say Revelation 4 takes place on earth. But where do you think John is before he is told to come up to Heaven in verse one?

There was no Church raptured to heaven. I explained what God's Church is and it will be here on earth until Jesus returns. The whole of Revelation is about what God's Church or people go through, through the ages, those who persecute them and what will happen to them at the end.
Obviously, that's not the way I see it. :)
 

Thunderian

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Even without reading it i know more about it than anybody else. L0L
You're a fool.

The resurrection is said to be at the last trump... and there are seven trumps in the book of Revelation. Although there is a sealing of 144 000 at the time of God's wrath that is the opening of the 6th seal.
The seven trumps in Revelation are trumpets of judgement. The Rapture will happen at the last Trump of God, which is sounded to call his people up. An example of this is in Exodus 19.
 
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