The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture

[Karlysymon]

I guess the trick when things are not crystal clear is to be spiritually prepared for both eventualities? I love the “but if not” line of Daniels friends.

I get what you are saying but think about this for a moment....how can the most important or momentous event that the Church has long looked forward to, be this crystally unclear in Sacred Writ? Look at how detailed the Second Coming is, both in the NT and OT. If the secret rapture was legit, it would be that detailed and we would have no occasion to argue about it. Notice no one(amongst Christians) argues about whether Jesus is coming back?

 

[phipps]

OK, the notion that the Rapture and the Second Coming are two distinct events comes in part from a comparison of verses alluding to the return of the Lord. These broadly fall into “Rapture-like verses” and “Second Coming-like verses” leading many to identify them as separate events:-

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? | GotQuestions.org

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? Are the Rapture and the Second Coming different events?

www.gotquestions.org

On the specific verse question, you may have come across the popular Islamic question “show me the verse where Jesus says “I am God, worship me”...

But the rapture and the Second Coming are not separated in the Bible are they? They all happen at the second coming according to scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." These verses tell us Jesus will return, then the dead will rise in Christ first, then those who are alive will be caught up in the air to meet Christ. Every believer will rise off the ground and meet Christ in the air together (that's the rapture). There is no separation at all between the rapture and Jesus' second coming. They all happen together.

You still haven't shown me scripture that specifically says the church will be raptured before Jesus' second coming? This is supposed to be a momentous event yet I don't know any scripture that says it. If you don't mind can you post the scripture here?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But the rapture and the Second Coming are not separated in the Bible are they? They all happen at the second coming according to scripture.

Heres an interesting quote from Isaiah 61...

Jesus quotes As having been fulfilled only part of a verse and closes the scroll...

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;*

*the bold highlighted part is yet future, separated by almost 2000 years now.

 

[phipps]

Heres an interesting quote from Isaiah 61...

Jesus quotes As having been fulfilled only part of a verse and closes the scroll...

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;*

*the bold highlighted part is yet future, separated by almost 2000 years now.

You still haven't shown me scripture that specifically says the church will be raptured before Jesus' second coming? This is supposed to be a momentous event yet I don't know any scripture that says it specifically. If you don't mind can you post the scripture here?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You still haven't shown me scripture that specifically says the church will be raptured before Jesus' second coming? This is supposed to be a momentous event yet I don't know any scripture that says it specifically. If you don't mind can you post the scripture here?

I have shown you scripture(s) that indicate it, and provided logical context for the distinction between events, but if you were hoping for a clear passage that asserts a pre-trib time frame, I may have to disappoint you.

The next Andy Woods talk will address a particular scene for which a post-trib interpretation is highly problematic. Out of curiosity, which Bible translation(s) do you lean to?

Whilst on that same subject, I can’t give you a single verse that unambiguously and unequivocally proves the Trinity as pictured in the Athanasian Creed, yet this is a very important doctrine indeed!

 

[phipps]

I have shown you scripture(s) that indicate it, and provided logical context for the distinction between events, but if you were hoping for a clear passage that asserts a pre-trib time frame, I may have to disappoint you.

The next Andy Woods talk will address a particular scene for which a post-trib interpretation is highly problematic. Out of curiosity, which Bible translation(s) do you lean to?

Whilst on that same subject, I can’t give you a single verse that unambiguously and unequivocally proves the Trinity as pictured in the Athanasian Creed, yet this is a very important doctrine indeed!

There is so much scripture from the Old to the New Testament about the second coming of Jesus and the rapture of the saints (the church, Israel) because it gives us hope that Jesus is coming back for us. Its also a very momentous event. Peter's description of the Second coming of Jesus and the rapture, says “the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat” (2 Peter 3:12).

Why would such a momentous event such as the rapture before the second coming not be written about in the whole Bible? If its not in the Bible where did the theory come from? It certainly didn't come from God's Word.

The next Andy Woods talk will address a particular scene for which a post-trib interpretation is highly problematic. Out of curiosity, which Bible translation(s) do you lean to?

I use both the KJV and NKJV translations. I only read Bible translations with received text.

Whilst on that same subject, I can’t give you a single verse that unambiguously and unequivocally proves the Trinity as pictured in the Athanasian Creed, yet this is a very important doctrine indeed!

There is scripture in the Bible about the Trinity that is clear.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

There is so much scripture from the Old to the New Testament about the second coming of Jesus and the rapture of the saints (the church, Israel) because it gives us hope that Jesus is coming back for us.

Ephesians 3 (KJV)

3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[phipps]

Ephesians 3 (KJV)

3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

These verses are not talking about a rapture before Jesus' second coming. The Bible would not just give us hints on such an important subject as that. It would tell us directly as it has about the second coming and rapture of all God's people when they will meet Jesus in the air. The truth is its not in the Bible because its not going to happen. Pre-trib has just made assumptions about scripture and turned it into a doctrine. Don't you want to know God's truth and not man made doctrine?

 

[phipps]

Bible verses about the Second coming of Christ and the rapture.

John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Acts 1:9-11 , "Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.' "

Revelation 1:7, "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."

Matthew 24:27, "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

Matthew 24:37-42, "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming."

Luke 17:35-37), " 'Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.' And they answered and said to Him, 'Where, Lord?' So He said to them, 'Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.' ”

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

Revelation 6:14-17, "Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 19:11-16, "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”

2 Peter 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

1 Thessalonians 5:2, "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.”

Revelation 22:12, "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.”

Matthew 25:31-34, 41, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:' ... Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' ”

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

These verses are not talking about a rapture before Jesus' second coming. The Bible would not just give us hints on such an important subject as that. It would tell us directly as it has about the second coming and rapture of all God's people when they will meet Jesus in the air. The truth is its not in the Bible because its not going to happen. Pre-trib has just made assumptions about scripture and turned it into a doctrine. Don't you want to know God's truth and not man made doctrine?

These verses indicate that the Church was a mystery in the OT, and revealed in the Dispensation of Grace.

 

[phipps]

These verses indicate that the Church was a mystery in the OT, and revealed in the Dispensation of Grace.

No they don't. The church was never a mystery. The full knowledge of salvation was never fully shown in the Old Covenant before Christ. Its in the New Covenant that the mystery was revealed. "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" (verses 5-6). The mystery was that God would call the Gentiles to salvation by faith in Christ. This was revealed to the apostles in the New Covenant. That Gentiles should also be partakers of Christ's promise, the promise made to the Jews was now given to the Gentiles too. Its plain and clear if not distorted.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No they don't. The church was never a mystery. The full knowledge of salvation was never fully shown in the Old Covenant before Christ. Its in the New Covenant that the mystery was revealed. "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" (verses 5-6). The mystery was that God would call the Gentiles to salvation by faith in Christ. This was revealed to the apostles in the New Covenant. That Gentiles should also be partakers of Christ's promise, the promise made to the Jews was now given to the Gentiles too. Its plain and clear if not distorted.

Dear @phipps

You say “no they don’t” then go on to make the same point as me ;-) The Church was a mystery, which was then revealed. In the same way, Paul was party to six other “mysteries” which the Lord gave him revelation of, pertaining to the Age of Grace.

 

[Karlysymon]

@Red Sky at Morning

Here's an example of Isaiah 13:9-13 of the Second Coming.

See, the day of the Lord is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
12 I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.
​

Can you provide verses of descriptions of the conditions shortly before the secret rapture happens? Or are we just going to wake up and find piles of abandoned clothes in the streets?
Iam positive that like the Second Coming, God would provide these details as a way to encourage His children but also to keep them from deception. @phipps and I aren't putting you on the spot but its necessary to ask these questions, after all many people in the street, to whom you would proselytize, would ask you the same thing and you'd have to prove it out of the Bible.

 

[phipps]

Dear @phipps

You say “no they don’t” then go on to make the same point as me ;-) The Church was a mystery, which was then revealed. In the same way, Paul was party to six other “mysteries” which the Lord gave him revelation of, pertaining to the Age of Grace.

"Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" (verses 5-6)

The church was not a mystery in my point. The mystery was that in the Old Testament the Jews did not know that Gentiles would also be fellow heirs with them in the New Testament. That is the mystery that was revealed to the apostles. Gentiles would be partakers of God's promises. They would be part of Israel too if they accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and obey His will. It is this church that Christ is coming for at His second coming and will be raptured at the last day and not before. There is nothing about the Church being a mystery in those verses.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Red Sky at Morning
Can you provide verses of descriptions of the conditions shortly before the secret rapture happens?

Hi @Karlysymon

As for conditions before the Rapture, my reading suggests the world entering into a period called the “beginning of sorrows” and believe that as a world, we are experiencing what the Bible calls “birth pangs”. Many (me included) think this has been going on for over a century now.

 

[phipps]

@Red Sky at Morning

I've been accused here of wanting to be right at any cost, and being ambitious and not listening. That is not true. What happens is I get excited and then post something because I honestly want to show where someone is not right so they can get to know God better and understand Him from His Word. I'm the kind of person, when I know something and I am passionate about it, I share it with everyone around me.

I used to be one of those Christians who never really studied the Bible for myself and took at face value what Pastors preached and taught in church. If I read Christian books I didn't question them. Until I learned later that sometimes what people think and teach can be wrong and contradict the Word of God. Bible study, prayerfully and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us while we do so, is essential to knowing and understanding God and therefore we grow to love Him more.

The sad truth is a lot of doctrines within Christendom are not biblical at all. The pretrib rapture theory and its whole doctrine is not biblical. Many sincere Christians believe in it but if only they studied and read God's Word they would realise it contradicts the Word of God.

When we get one subject out of harmony in the Bible, many other things don't match up to God's Word too. Here is a conclusion of where pretrib does not match what the Bible teaches. I can't mention everything though.

1. There is no rapture of the church before Jesus' coming the second time in the Bible. It is not written of anywhere in the Bible. The Bible tells us at Christ's second coming, He will return once for His people (it will be a single event), He will return to earth in the same way He went up, in plain view, will return with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and God’s trumpet will sound, graves all over the planet will break open at once, all the righteous will go up together to meet the Lord in the air, the structure of Planet Earth will begin to melt.

2. There is no scriptural evidence at all that Christ is going to rapture the church before the tribulation. Many sincere Christians actually believe that they won't be here on earth when the tribulation comes. The Bible has always been clear that true Christians will be hated, will be persecuted, will suffer, and yes, will be killed for The Name of Christ. To ignore this truth is to risk not being ready for the great persecution that is coming. The Bible is clear that Jesus' people, His church will be here on earth at the end and He will come to save them when He returns the second time where they will meet Him in the air and forever be with Him.

Revelation 7:14, "And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 18:4, "And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues."

It would be wonderful for the Lord to rapture the church before the tribulation but the Bible will not allow me to believe that. It's a very convenient and dangerous doctrine, because some Christians are not preparing or fortifying themselves for the trials ahead.

3. Jesus will return FOR the church NOT with the church. The Bible clearly tells us Christ will return with all the angels of heaven at His second coming for His people. As the bright cloud (cloud is another word used for a multitude of angels in the Bible) nears the earth, Jesus will send forth His angels, and they will quickly gather together all of the righteous in preparation for the trip back to heaven.

Matthew 25:31, “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.”

Matthew 24:31, "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

4. The church is all the righteous people whether they are Jews or Gentiles. The Jews are not going to have a separate event to the Gentiles according to the Bible. The Bible is clear there is not distinction between Jews and Gentiles and Christ will treat them as such. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus"(Galatians 3:28).

Here are some scriptural terms for the church and its people:

Matthew 24:31, "and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Acts 11:26, "disciples...Christians",

Acts 20:28, "the flock...church of God",

Romans 1:6-7, "the called of Christ... beloved of God...saints",

1 Corinthians 15:6, "brethren [brothers and sisters]",

Ephesians 4:4-6,11-15, "There is one body...[which grows and is united by] speaking the truth in love..."

Colossians 1:12,13,18, "saints... Christ's kingdom... Christ's body",

1 Timothy 3:15, "God’s household (family)",

Hebrews 12:22-23, "church of the firstborn... made perfect,"

Revelation 21:2, "The new Jerusalem... bride [of Christ]."

Also in the Bible Israel is equated with the church. "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed" (Romans 9:6-8). In God’s eyes there is a typical “natural Israel” which is made up of ethnically natural born sons of Abraham. Then
there is a true, “spiritual Israel”. To be part of this group you don't have to be from a physical line of decent but to believe in Christ and your personal Saviour and obey His will. You can be from any nation in the world. Romans 2:28-29 confirms that there is such a thing as natural Israel and spiritual Israel. “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." The Bible makes it abundantly plain that Christian believers, are the spiritual sons of Abraham, and the Israel of God (Galatians 3:7, 9, 14, 16, 29). Its all about the heart and not genetics. The division between Jews and Gentiles has been done away with, God making of the two, one new body.

1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

Ephesians 2:19, "Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God."

Christians should all want to know the clear truth of God's Word and to sift out or reject all untruth that is unbiblical or doesn't match His Word. We do that by studying and comparing scripture with scripture on particular subjects. That is how we get to understand, know and love God more. As we let the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth. I pray that we all do that.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@phipps and @Karlysymon ...

In various ways you have both asked me for a passage that clearly indicates a pre-trib rapture.

Whilst I may not be able to field a “smoking gun” verse, there is a group of people in the Book of Revelation whose explanation is extremely problematic for those who reject a pre-trib interpretation.

The twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation – Who are they?

Revelation 4:4 mentions twenty-four elders who sit upon twenty-four thrones before the Lord. Who are these twenty-four elders?

The Bible does not specifically provide the identity of these elders. However, some information is provided that allows us to rule out some possibilities and consider a few options.

First, these twenty-four elders are described as human, male elders. They are not angels, creatures, or females, but specifically use male terms to describe these beings. They are also distinct from angels in other places in Revelation (7:11).

Second, they are clearly believers in the Lord. They are in heaven and wear white garments, something that symbolizes God's righteousness. (Revelation 3:5, 18; 19:8). They also wear crowns (Revelation 4:4), something not said of angels in Scripture and which believers are said to receive (1 Corinthians 9:24-25; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10). Further, the elders also worship the Lord (Revelation 4:11).

Based on these descriptions, these twenty-four elders represent those who worship the Lord. More specifically, they may either represent 1) the church, 2) representatives of Israel, or 3) the twelve patriarchs and twelve apostles (Matthew 19:28). One variation of these views is that the use of twenty-four elders may come from 1 Chronicles 24:1-5 in which the priests were organized into twenty-four groups. If so, this "kingdom of priests" represents the church that dwells in heaven with the Lord during the tribulation period.

This would also help alleviate the concern of Israel being represented in heaven during the tribulation period when Israel had not yet believed in the Lord on a large scale. Further, it would remove the problem of these elders representing the apostles since John himself, an apostle, was the one having the vision (Would he have seen himself as one of the twenty-four elders and not mentioned it?).

Again, while not specifically explained, the information in Scripture most likely identifies these twenty-four elders as representatives of the church, those who will dwell with the Lord during the tribulation period while God's judgments take place on the earth. Further, this fits the historic view of elders representing leadership of local churches (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9), offering a picture of God's people worshiping God after escaping the tribulation as a result of the rapture (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58).

The twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation – Who are they?

The twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation – Who are they? Who could the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation represent?

www.compellingtruth.org

I have been looking into this half the day, starting with this talk I listened to this morning....

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

24 Elders, “us” or “them”

One detail that Andy alludes to later in his talk is over the text variants of “us” or “them” that are mentioned later in the talk.

I wouldn’t have appreciated this controversy had I not looked into textual criticism (prompted some time ago by @Kung Fu - genuine thanks again btw)

John Niemela really went into fantastic depth in his analysis here and ironically proved that the popular text critics adage “lectio difficilior” (that @Serveto mentioned to me some time ago) can sometimes lead to very fruitful illumination.

In fact, he went on to write a dissertation on the same subject!

https://www.pre-trib.org/pretribfiles/pdfs/Niemela-Revelation5The24EldersAndTheRapture.pdf

 

[phipps]

@phipps and @Karlysymon ...

In various ways you have both asked me for a passage that clearly indicates a pre-trib rapture.

Whilst I may not be able to field a “smoking gun” verse, there is a group of people in the Book of Revelation whose explanation is extremely problematic for those who reject a pre-trib interpretation.

The twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation – Who are they?

Revelation 4:4 mentions twenty-four elders who sit upon twenty-four thrones before the Lord. Who are these twenty-four elders?

The Bible does not specifically provide the identity of these elders. However, some information is provided that allows us to rule out some possibilities and consider a few options.

First, these twenty-four elders are described as human, male elders. They are not angels, creatures, or females, but specifically use male terms to describe these beings. They are also distinct from angels in other places in Revelation (7:11).

Second, they are clearly believers in the Lord. They are in heaven and wear white garments, something that symbolizes God's righteousness. (Revelation 3:5, 18; 19:8). They also wear crowns (Revelation 4:4), something not said of angels in Scripture and which believers are said to receive (1 Corinthians 9:24-25; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10). Further, the elders also worship the Lord (Revelation 4:11).

Based on these descriptions, these twenty-four elders represent those who worship the Lord. More specifically, they may either represent 1) the church, 2) representatives of Israel, or 3) the twelve patriarchs and twelve apostles (Matthew 19:28). One variation of these views is that the use of twenty-four elders may come from 1 Chronicles 24:1-5 in which the priests were organized into twenty-four groups. If so, this "kingdom of priests" represents the church that dwells in heaven with the Lord during the tribulation period.

This would also help alleviate the concern of Israel being represented in heaven during the tribulation period when Israel had not yet believed in the Lord on a large scale. Further, it would remove the problem of these elders representing the apostles since John himself, an apostle, was the one having the vision (Would he have seen himself as one of the twenty-four elders and not mentioned it?).

Again, while not specifically explained, the information in Scripture most likely identifies these twenty-four elders as representatives of the church, those who will dwell with the Lord during the tribulation period while God's judgments take place on the earth. Further, this fits the historic view of elders representing leadership of local churches (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9), offering a picture of God's people worshiping God after escaping the tribulation as a result of the rapture (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58).

The twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation – Who are they?

The twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation – Who are they? Who could the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation represent?

www.compellingtruth.org

I have been looking into this half the day, starting with this talk I listened to this morning....

Whilst I may not be able to field a “smoking gun” verse, there is a group of people in the Book of Revelation whose explanation is extremely problematic for those who reject a pre-trib interpretation.

If you can't find a “smoking gun” verse for something as important as the rapture of the church before the second coming, its because its not going to happen.

Revelation 4:4 mentions twenty-four elders who sit upon twenty-four thrones before the Lord. Who are these twenty-four elders?

The Bible does not specifically provide the identity of these elders. However, some information is provided that allows us to rule out some possibilities and consider a few options.

First, these twenty-four elders are described as human, male elders. They are not angels, creatures, or females, but specifically use male terms to describe these beings. They are also distinct from angels in other places in Revelation (7:11).

Yes, the 24 elders are human and not angels. That is true biblically. Because they are human that means they lived on earth before. There are people in the Bible who have been taken to heaven (raptured) and are in heaven. People like Enoch, Elijah, Moses (Elijah and Enoch did not die but Moses died first), and the saints who were resurrected when Jesus died (Matthew 27:50-53).

Second, they are clearly believers in the Lord. They are in heaven and wear white garments, something that symbolizes God's righteousness. (Revelation 3:5, 18; 19:8). They also wear crowns (Revelation 4:4), something not said of angels in Scripture and which believers are said to receive (1 Corinthians 9:24-25; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10). Further, the elders also worship the Lord (Revelation 4:11).

This is biblically true too but its important to note that the angels in heaven also worship the Lord.

Based on these descriptions, these twenty-four elders represent those who worship the Lord. More specifically, they may either represent 1) the church, 2) representatives of Israel, or 3) the twelve patriarchs and twelve apostles (Matthew 19:28). One variation of these views is that the use of twenty-four elders may come from 1 Chronicles 24:1-5 in which the priests were organized into twenty-four groups.

Yes, the 24 elders are the antitype of the twenty-four courses of priests in 1 Chronicles 24:1-19; 2 Chronicles 8:14 who took turns serving in the earthly temple services.

If so, this "kingdom of priests" represents the church that dwells in heaven with the Lord during the tribulation period.

No and the Bible doesn't say so either. Anyone who says this is just making assumptions and adding words to the Bible.

This would also help alleviate the concern of Israel being represented in heaven during the tribulation period when Israel had not yet believed in the Lord on a large scale. Further, it would remove the problem of these elders representing the apostles since John himself, an apostle, was the one having the vision (Would he have seen himself as one of the twenty-four elders and not mentioned it?).

Again this is all assumption. The Bible is very clear as I have proven with posted scripture to you that Jesus is going to treat all the saved as one. There is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles in the Bible. Jews are not all going to start believing in Jesus all at once one day. They are like all of us in the world. Some of them will believe and some won't (most won't and that's true of the whole world too). Many will never change their minds about Jesus being the Messiah. Anything to do with Israel now represents all of God's people. This is the truth of the Bible.

The number 12 is important and symbolic in the Bible. It represents the church (God's people) and God’s authority. Its no coincidence that there were 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disciples. In Revelation 12:1, the 24 elders and 144,000 are multiples of 12. The New Jerusalem city has12 foundations, 12 gates 12 thousand furlongs, a tree with 12 kinds of fruit 12 times a year eaten by 12 times 12,000 or the 144,000.

Again, while not specifically explained, the information in Scripture most likely identifies these twenty-four elders as representatives of the church, those who will dwell with the Lord during the tribulation period while God's judgments take place on the earth. Further, this fits the historic view of elders representing leadership of local churches (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9), offering a picture of God's people worshiping God after escaping the tribulation as a result of the rapture (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58).

We are told in Revelation 5:9-10, "And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

The four Living creatures and the 24 elders sing a new song, a song of Redemption; for they have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus out of every tribe and nation and raised from the depths of sin to the position of kings and priests unto God. They look forward to their reign with Christ on the earth made new. They represent Israel, God's church who will also redeemed by the blood of Jesus out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation of the whole world.

God does not identify the 24 elders because He does not think its important we know who they are. But you are reaching here to say, "those who will dwell with the Lord during the tribulation period while God's judgments take place on the earth." You cannot change the fact that a pre-rapture is not mentioned at all in the Bible. Jesus and the apostles never spoke of it and its not found anywhere in the Old Testament too. The Bible also does not tell us specifically when the 24 elders got to heaven either but one thing is clear, they were there before end time days.

You also cannot ignore the fact that that there is no mention at all that God's people will escape the tribulation in the Bible. In fact the Bible tells us the opposite:

Revelation 7:9-14, A Multitude from the Great Tribulation
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

God's people will be right here on earth during the tribulation and Jesus will come for them and save them from this sinful world and the snares of Satan forever. To say different is to disagree with the Bible which is disagreeing with God.

As a fellow Christian, its important we understand that we are not to make God's Word and truth fit in with our doctrines. We should not be ‘adding’ to the words of the Bible as Revelation 22:18 states. We are to study and find out what God's truth is prayerfully and ask Him to help us fit in with His truth completely. Pretrib and you are making assumptions and coming up with conclusions and therefore untruths not found in God's Word. If we do that without knowing that's different to being fully aware and still continuing to do it.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I the spirit of the intention behind this thread, I conclude (for now) with a more concise presentation by David Hocking (who Andy Woods references) on the implications for identity of the 24 Elders of Revelation 4 for the timing of the Rapture. While it’s an older recording it takes nothing from the quality of the ideas presented.

Part 1

Part 2

As for the arguments for and against as presented on this thread, I suggest readers take them as an invitation to delve into the sources that are cited and to further study of their own.