The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture

Red Sky at Morning

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I knew you would do this. I am not going to do this with you again because you don't know anything about SDA's nor Ellen G White. You've just copy pasted again something you know nothing about and this is to deviate from the subject of this forum. This tactic is wasted on me.

You are behaving like all the others here who reject the Bible on specific subjects and when I show them actual biblical scripture and prove God's truths they retaliate like you're doing. So immature!

Now the subject at hand is pre-trib is not biblical at all. One does not have to be an SDA or agree with their teachings but just study the Bible and they will see that pre-trib is not biblical and therefore not of God. It is man made doctrine.

Prove pre-trib from the Bible or don't bother replying me. And the SDA's are right (its all biblical) unless you can prove them wrong.

The ball is in your court.
I was simply pointing out the different approach that SDAs take to end-times events, and why they interpret as they do. The article was pretty non-judgemental and helped me understand why Adventists take particular issue with Dispensationalists.
 

phipps

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I was simply pointing out the different approach that SDAs take to end-times events, and why they interpret as they do. The article was pretty non-judgemental and helped me understand why Adventists take particular issue with Dispensationalists.
That is not why you posted what you did about SDA's and you know it. Prove pre-trib from the Bible and stop stalling.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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That is not why you posted what you did about SDA's and you know it. Prove pre-trib from the Bible and stop stalling.
There is a subtle difference between making materials you find compelling available for the consideration of others and trying to slug it out with someone who takes an opposite view.

In case you missed the posts I put up earlier in the thread, Andy Woods is presently doing a series of talks on the Biblical case for the Rapture, and these are being added to a playlist for anyone who is interested to review, either to agree or disagree.

 
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phipps

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There is a subtle difference between making materials you find compelling available and trying to slug it out. In case you missed the posts I put up earlier in the thread, Andy Woods is presently doing a series on the Rapture, and these are being added to a playlist for anyone who is interested to review, either to agree or disagree.

Its all not biblical. If you get one thing wrong and out of harmony with the Bible, the rest will be wrong and out of harmony too.

There is no seven year tribulation for starters. The 1 week/7 years of the 70 weeks /490 years that God cut off for the Jews was not separated from the 69 weeks in the Bible.

The reason the 1 week is spoken of separately is because in the middle if the week Jesus was crucified. How do we know this? The verses where the angel explains to Daniel the meaning of the prophecy say:

“Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times" (Daniel 9:25). From this starting point of the 70 weeks, seven weeks were allotted for the restoration of Jerusalem which did happen exactly as it was prophesied. Jerusalem was rebuilt for 49 years ( 7 weeks in prophecy represent 49 years in reality) Ezra 6:14, 7:7-8. Then 434 years (62 weeks represent 434 years) bring us to "the Messiah the Prince." Messiah the Prince is Jesus. He was anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism which marked the beginning of His ministry (Luke 3:21-23). This baptism marked the event in Daniel’s prophecy “until the Messiah the Prince.” When Christ proclaimed, “The time is fulfilled” (Mark 1:15), He was referring to this part of the prophecy.

The 70 weeks are not separated by 2000 years in the future.

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate” (Daniel 9:26-27). Christ would confirm the covenant made with Israel for one prophetic week (7 years), but oblation (offerings) would cease in the middle of the week (3 ½ years). This mid-point brings us to Christ's crucifixion. It was His death that put an end to the system of offerings practised by Israel for so many years. They offered an animal (lamb) when they confessed their sins in the old sacrificial system. That animal represented the Lamb of God that would be slain for them. After Christ was crucified there was no need for the system of offering to continue. This agrees with the Bible.

And no, this is not an SDA doctrine, its biblical doctrine.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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An alternative perspective on Daniel’s 70 weeks:-

Daniel’s 70 Weeks

The Precision of Prophecy
by Chuck Missler • November 1, 2004


Irrefutably Documented

To fully appreciate the remarkable significance of the following article, it is essential to realize that the Book of Daniel, as part of the Old Testament, was translated into Greek prior to 270 B.C., almost three centuries before Christ was born. This is a well-established fact of secular history.[1]

The Septuagint

After his conquest of the Babylonian Empire, Alexander the Great promoted the Greek language throughout the known world, and thus almost everyone — including the Jews — spoke Greek. Hebrew fell into disuse, being reserved primarily for ceremonial purposes (somewhat analogous to the use of Latin among Roman Catholics).

In order to make the Jewish Scriptures (what we call the Old Testament) available to the average Jewish reader, a project was undertaken under the sponsorship of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285–246 B.C.) to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. Seventy scholars were commissioned to complete this work and their result is known as the “Septuagint” (“70”) translation. (This is often abbreviated “LXX”.)

The Book of Daniel is actually one of the most authenticated books of the Old Testament, historically and archaeologically, but this is a convenient shortcut for our purposes here. It is critical to realize that the Book of Daniel existed in documented form almost three centuries before Christ was born.

Gabriel’s Zinger

Daniel, originally deported as a teenager (now near the end of the Babylonian captivity), was reading in the Book of Jeremiah. He understood that the seventy years of servitude were almost over and he began to pray for his people.

The Angel Gabriel interrupted Daniel’s prayer and gave him a four-verse prophecy that is unquestionably the most remarkable passage in the entire Bible: Daniel 9:24–27.

These four verses include the following segments:

  • 9:24 – The Scope of the Entire Prophecy;
  • 9:25 – The 69 Weeks;
  • 9:26 – An Interval between the 69th and 70th Week;
  • 9:27 – The 70th Week.
The Scope (Dan 9:24)
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy Place .
— Daniel 9:24
The idiom of a “week” of years was common in Israel as a “sabbath for the land,” in which the land was to lie fallow every seventh year.[2] It was their failure to obey these laws that led to God sending them into captivity under the Babylonians.[3]

Note that the focus of this passage is upon “thy people and upon thy holy city,” that is, upon Israel and Jerusalem. (It is not directed to the Church.)

The scope of this prophecy includes a broad list of things which clearly have yet to be completed.

The First 69 Weeks (Dan 9:25)

A very specific prediction occurs in verse 25:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
— Daniel 9:25
This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;[4] 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The “Messiah the Prince” in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, “The Messiah the King.” (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)

Bull’s-Eye!

The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.[5] (The emphasis in the verse on “the street” and “the wall” was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: “Mine hour is not yet come”.[6]

The Triumphal Entry

Then, one day, He meticulously arrangesit.[7] On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
— Zechariah 9:9
Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.[8] However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
— Luke 19:40
This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.[9]

The Precision of Prophecy

When we examine the period between March 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!

How could Daniel have known this in advance? How could anyone have contrived to have this detailed prediction documented over three centuries in advance? But there’s more.

The Interval (Dan 9:26)

There appears to be a gap between the 69th week (verse 25) and the 70th week (verse 27):

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
— Daniel 9:26
The sixty-two “weeks” follow the initial seven, so verse 26 deals with events after69th week, but before the 70th. These events include the Messiah being killed and the city and sanctuary being destroyed.

As Jesus approached the city on the donkey, He also predicted the destruction of Jerusalem:

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
— Luke 19:43–44
The Messiah was, of course, executed at the Crucifixion…”but not for Himself.”

The city and the sanctuary were destroyed 38 years later when the Roman legions under Titus Vespasian leveled the city of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, precisely as Daniel and Jesus had predicted. In fact, as one carefully examines Jesus’ specific words, it appears that He held them accountable to know this astonishing prophecy in Daniel 9! “Because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.”

The 70th Week

There is a remaining seven-year period to be fulfilled. This period is the most documented period in the entire Bible. The Book of Revelation, Chapters 6 through 19, is essentially a detailing of that climactic period.

The interval between the 69th and 70th week continues, but it is increasingly apparent that it may soon be over.

The more one is familiar with the numerous climactic themes of “end-time” prophecy, the more it seems that Daniel’s 70th Week is on our horizon.


Sources
  1. Encyclopedia Britannica , Volume 10, p. 642. ↩
  2. Leviticus 25:1–22; 26:3–35; Deuteronomy 15. ↩
  3. 2 Chronicles 36:20–21. ↩
  4. Genesis 7:24; 8:3,4; Revelation 11:2; 12:6; 13:3,4; etc. ↩
  5. First identified in Sir Robert Anderson’s classic work, The Coming Prince, published originally in 1894. Now available in any Christian bookstore. ↩
  6. John 6:15. Always in control: John 7:30, 44; 8:59; 10:39. ↩
  7. Luke 19:28–40. ↩
  8. Luke 19:39. ↩
  9. Luke 3:1: Tiberias appointed in A.D. 14; 15th year, A.D. 29; the 4th Passover occurred in A.D. 32. ↩
Sources
  • Anderson, Robert, The Coming Prince, Hodder & Stoughton, London, 1894. The classic work on the Seventy Weeks of Daniel.
  • Missler, Chuck, Daniel’s 70 Weeks, Koinonia House, 2004. (Also, the newly recorded Expositional Commentary on Daniel, 16-session study with notes.)
 

phipps

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More about the seventy week of Daniel 9

Daniel 9:24,
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." The holy city is Jerusalem.

1. “to finish the transgression”
2. “to make an end of [seal] sins”
3. “to make reconciliation for iniquity”

God deals with all sins by His sacrificial death and glorious resurrection within this 70 week period.

3. “to bring in everlasting righteousness”
4. “to seal up the vision and prophecy”
5. “to anoint the most holy”

Christ’s death and resurrection accomplishes everlasting righteousness, confirms the vision’s authenticity, and anoints the heavenly sanctuary for use.

The prophecy in Daniel 9:27 said that Jesus would confirm the covenant, or the great plan of salvation, with many for one prophetic week (7 literal years). But Jesus was crucified in the midst of that final week allotted to His chosen nation, so how could He confirm the covenant with them after His death? The answer is found in Hebrews 2:3, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him." Jesus insisted that His disciples preach first to the Jews, because they still had three and a half years remaining of their 70 week/490-year opportunity to accept and proclaim the Messiah. "These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6). Jesus' disciples preached to the Jews for that final three and a half years, until the nation officially rejected the Messiah and gospel message.

Jesus had made it very clear that the special status of the Jewish nation would be taken away if the people persisted in rejecting the Messiah. “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it" (Matthew 21:43).

What is the other "nation" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 21:43?

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Galatians 3:29, "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The literal Jewish nation was no longer God's only chosen nation. Because they consistently resisted God's plan for them, the nation of Israel is no longer the central focus of end-time prophecy. Now all who accept Jesus are His chosen people, and the promises God made to literal Israel now also apply to spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8).

The 70 week/490-year prophecy is a continuous time period in the Bible.

The starting point for the 1 week/last seven years of the 490 year prophecy was Jesus' baptism. This is why He began to preach, "The time is fulfilled." Mark 1:15.

At the moment of His death on the cross, Jesus cried out, "It is finished." The Saviour clearly referred to the predictions of His death made in Daniel chapter 9. They are as follows:

1. "Messiah" would be "cut off," or crucified (verse 26).

2. He would "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" by dying for all as the true Lamb of God (verse 27, 1 Corinthians 5:7, 15:3).

3. He would "make reconciliation for iniquity" (verse 24).
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The series continues....

This latest episode is great, as it speaks to a lot of the criticisms and controversies over a pre-trib Rapture. Andy outlines seven scriptural reasons why he finds the pre-trib perspective compelling:-

 

Red Sky at Morning

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The literal Jewish nation was no longer God's only chosen nation. Because they consistently resisted God's plan for them, the nation of Israel is no longer the central focus of end-time prophecy.
Romans 11

Israel’s Rejection Not Final
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But (N)through their [b]fall, to provoke them to (O)jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their [c]fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as (P)I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and (Q)save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be (R)but life from the dead?

16 For if (S)the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if (T)some of the branches were broken off, (U)and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 (V)do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.Because of (W)unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, (X)if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise (Y)you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, (Z)if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be (AA)wise in your own [f]opinion, that (AB)blindness in part has happened to Israel (AC)until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

(AD)“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For (AE)this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are (AF)beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are (AG)irrevocable. 30 For as you (AH)were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them (AI)all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the (AJ)mind of the Lord?
Or (AK)who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or(AL) who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For (AM)of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, (AN)to whom be glory forever. Amen.
 

phipps

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Romans 11

Israel’s Rejection Not Final
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But (N)through their [b]fall, to provoke them to (O)jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their [c]fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as (P)I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and (Q)save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be (R)but life from the dead?

16 For if (S)the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if (T)some of the branches were broken off, (U)and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 (V)do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.Because of (W)unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, (X)if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise (Y)you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, (Z)if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be (AA)wise in your own [f]opinion, that (AB)blindness in part has happened to Israel (AC)until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

(AD)“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For (AE)this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are (AF)beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are (AG)irrevocable. 30 For as you (AH)were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them (AI)all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the (AJ)mind of the Lord?
Or (AK)who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or(AL) who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For (AM)of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, (AN)to whom be glory forever. Amen.
I'm not going to read something that contradicts the Bible. You have rejected those scriptures which is God's Word in favour of your doctrine but I won't. Israel is the church and Jesus is the head of the Church. So says the Word of God. Because the Bible says it I believe it and if any doctrine or anyone disagrees with it, then I reject it and them.

I'll repost what the Bible says clearly.

Israel is spiritual and is about the heart not genetics. Its not literal.

Romans 2:28-29
, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Romans 9:6,
"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel."

Galatians 3:29, "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Galatians 3:14, "that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Jews and Gentiles are one. We are one body of believers if we accept Christ and His truth.

1 Corinthians 12:12-27, "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many."

Ephesians 3:6, "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel."

Ephesians 4:4-5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

John 10:16, "And other sheep (Gentiles) I have which are not of this fold (Jew); them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

Ephesians 3:6, "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel."

Galatians 3:16, "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ."

Ephesians 2:15b, "so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace."

Ephesians 3:15, "from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (Note: only one family is mentioned).

Jesus is head of the Church which is one body of both Jews and Gentiles.

Ephesians 5:23,
"For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body."

Colossians 1:18, "And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

Colossians 1:24, "I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church."


I post all this scripture to show that there is no contradictory doctrine in the Bible.

The everlasting promises made to Israel under the Mosaic Covenant were not made exclusively with the physical seed of Abraham, for these promises are fulfilled by all who are in Christ (1 Peter 1:2-9).

The everlasting kingdom promised to Israel, was not promised exclusively to the natural seed of Abram, nor is this kingdom to be realised in this present world John 18:36. Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world.

The New Covenant does not pertain to the physical nation of Israel, but it pertains to the whole family of God, the True Israel of faith, where circumcision is of the heart.

This is biblical truth, its time to stop rejecting it.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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@phipps

As an intro to the various views I posted this up in another thread.

“The “elephant in the room” for many Christians is that we can see things pertaining to the “end-times” accelerating at an alarming rate all around us, but we come from different backgrounds and interpretive frameworks (preterism, historicism, futurism etc), so addressing the question of where we are in all these unfolding events is often contentious.

I thought that rather than the usual tug of war, it might be an interesting exercise for those who hold certain positions strongly to have a thread to make the case FOR a particular position.

So I’ve set up five threads, which I think represent all the possible positions on the Rapture!

The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture

The Biblical Case for a “Mid-Tribulation” Rapture

The Biblical Case for a “Post-Tribulation” Rapture

The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Wrath” Rapture

And

The Biblical Case for a “Partial” Rapture

I haven’t met many Christians who don’t believe the Bible teaches no rapture at all, but it may be a thread you could start?

The purpose of this was to allow people who had a particular view to express it without the usual interruption from those who took opposing positions. It’s not that I am unable to argue a case FOR a Pre-Trib Rapture but I do feel that you have a sufficiently different position to warrant its own thread to give you a chance to fully explain it.

I personally disagree with the notion that God has rejected Israel as a nation forever, and believe that the Church is distinct and separate (and I believe Paul in Romans 11 reveals why).

Btw, the mystery of the Gentile Church, along with other “mysteries” mentioned earlier (including the Rapture) gained their full expression in the writings of Paul.
 
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phipps

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@phipps

As an intro to the various views I posted this up in another thread.

“The “elephant in the room” for many Christians is that we can see things pertaining to the “end-times” accelerating at an alarming rate all around us, but we come from different backgrounds and interpretive frameworks (preterism, historicism, futurism etc), so addressing the question of where we are in all these unfolding events is often contentious.

I thought that rather than the usual tug of war, it might be an interesting exercise for those who hold certain positions strongly to have a thread to make the case FOR a particular position.

So I’ve set up five threads, which I think represent all the possible positions on the Rapture!

The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture

The Biblical Case for a “Mid-Tribulation” Rapture

The Biblical Case for a “Post-Tribulation” Rapture

The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Wrath” Rapture

And

The Biblical Case for a “Partial” Rapture

I haven’t met many Christians who don’t believe the Bible teaches no rapture at all, but it may be a thread you could start?

The purpose of this was to allow people who had a particular view to express it without the usual interruption from those who took opposing positions. It’s not that I am unable to argue a case FOR a Pre-Trib Rapture but I do feel that you have a sufficiently different position to warrant its own thread to give you a chance to fully explain it.

I personally disagree with the notion that God has rejected Israel as a nation forever, and believe that the Church is distinct and separate (and I believe Paul in Romans 11 reveals why).

Btw, the mystery of the Gentile Church, along with other “mysteries” mentioned earlier (including the Rapture) gained their full expression in the writings of Paul.
You misunderstood me. I believe in the rapture. I posted before, "The issue now before us does not concern whether or not the Christian Church will one day be “raptured” or “caught up” to meet Christ in the air, for the Bible clearly and plainly teaches this doctrine (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

I believe in the rapture (although I don't use the word "rapture"). What I don't believe is the events that pre-tribers and post-tribers believe will happen before and after Jesus' second coming. What they say is not biblical.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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You misunderstood me. I believe in the rapture. I posted before, "The issue now before us does not concern whether or not the Christian Church will one day be “raptured” or “caught up” to meet Christ in the air, for the Bible clearly and plainly teaches this doctrine (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

I believe in the rapture (although I don't use the word "rapture"). What I don't believe is the events that pre-tribers and post-tribers believe will happen before and after Jesus' second coming. What they say is not biblical.
As those who hold those perspectives construct a biblical case for their reasoning, perhaps it might be more accurate to say that you reject their biblical interpretations?

Out of pre, mid, pre-wrath, partial or post (quite a mouthful!), which position best fits the interpretation you feel is most biblical?
 

phipps

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As those who hold those perspectives construct a biblical case for their reasoning, perhaps it might be more accurate to say that you reject their biblical interpretations?

Out of pre, mid, pre-wrath, partial or post (quite a mouthful!), which position best fits the interpretation you feel is most biblical?
That is exactly what I have been doing here. I have been rejecting biblical interpretations of pre-tribulation.

I don't agree with any of them as they all have something in their doctrines that do not agree with the Bible.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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That is exactly what I have been doing here. I have been rejecting biblical interpretations of pre-tribulation.

I don't agree with any of them as they all have something in their doctrines that do not agree with the Bible.
OK - why don’t you introduce a thread that sets out your reasoning for the perspective you hold?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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No. I will show people in their forums from the Bible, on those specific subjects how they are not biblical.
Having looked a little deeper it appears that SDAs differ from mainstream Christianity not just in eschatology but in ecclesiology.


It is over those fundamental bigger picture issues of just who the Church and Israel are and how they fit into God’s plan that the divergence occurs. It is this divergence that leads to rather different Biblical interpretations.
 
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phipps

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Having looked a little deeper it appears that SDAs differ from mainstream Christianity not just in eschatology but in ecclesiology.


It is over those fundamental bigger picture issues of just who the Church and Israel are and how they fit into God’s plan that the divergence occurs. It is this divergence that leads to rather different Biblical interpretations.
And they are right because their interpretation is Biblical. Why do you think I keep posting actual scripture here? So you and others can see exactly what the Bible says and compare it with other scripture. "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line: here a little and there a little" (Isaiah 28:10).

Pre-tribulation gets so many things wrongs that its not biblical entirely. One does not have to be an SDA to see that Pre-tribulation isn't biblical. Those who disagree with Pre-tribulation here are not SDA's so you trying to make out this is about my beliefs in SDA doctrine is moot.

They believe the rapture will happens before Jesus returns the second time.

This is not biblical. The rapture (which means to be caught in the air) will happen at the second coming. People are not going to be stolen away secretly before the tribulation and then Jesus come back for them when He returns for them the second time. The Bible is clear Jesus returns for His people the second time.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." Its clear in these verses that the righteous will be right here on earth when Jesus returns and then they meet Him in the air to be caught.

In the Bible, the righteous will be on earth during the tribulation. They will not be raptured before it. That's why Jesus is coming for them as the above s.

Before the great tribulation begins, God's people will experience a small time of trouble.The righteous will have to share their faith in the face of social, political, and religious opposition. "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Revelation 13:17.

When this fails to deter the people of God from obedience, there will be a death decree. "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Revelation 13:15. At this time, the great tribulation begins and the seven last plagues start to fall.

The seven last plagues will not fall on the righteous. God's wrath will be directed against the ones who disobey His law, distort His truth, and oppress His people. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Romans 1:18. This happened before in Egypt with the Israelites. When the plagues fell three of them fell on them but seven of them didn't. Do you think its a coincidence in the Bible that only seven plagues fall in the great tribulation instead of ten?

The great tribulation also coincides with the Battle of Armageddon. Both take place immediately before Christ's second coming. "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done." Revelation 16:16-17.

By the way the secret rapture was never even taught until the theory was invented by John Darby. I believe he completely made it up because it contradicts the Bible.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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By the way the secret rapture was never even taught until the theory was invented by John Darby. I believe he completely made it up because it contradicts the Bible.
I’m really grateful that you brought this up as it is one of the frequent criticisms of the doctrine of the Rapture.

Is the “Secret” Rapture a 19th Century modern myth concocted by Darby?

I had actually missed out Part 4 of Andy’s series that specifically addresses this question:-

 
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