The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture

Red Sky at Morning

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The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture

Rupertus Meldenius famously said, “In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

You don’t have to have spent too long on discussion forums to notice that this advice is rarely applied in “end times” discussions.
Different Christians have different views on the timing of the Rapture of the Church (and have the liberty to take views on “nonessentials”.

This thread is an invitation to make a Biblical case FOR a “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture. What is not required are reasons why the other views are stupid, people who believe in them heretics etc etc!!

Anyone wishing to support this interpretation is welcome to join in, and numerous perspectives are welcome, as many witnesses from different standpoints help corroborate a case.

P.s. Don’t forget - “In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I am working my way through the Andy Woods series on the Pre-Trib Rapture...

His first talk takes this passage as its reference:-

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - NKJV

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [a]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 






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Red Sky at Morning

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1 Corinthians 15:50-58 NKJV

Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.


and

 






Mercedes007

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A regular guy from Liverpool had an irregular dream:-

That’s too weird, this popped up on my homepage a few days Ago and I started following this guy. There’s now soooo many popping up for me, tons and tons of regular people having end time dreams. No new revelations per say but dreams of rapture, people left behind, world in state of utter chaos etc...

I’ve watched all Andy’s rapture videos and on to Revelation. I was doing a Bible study along with it and pretty much agree with it all. I’ve been in the Word so much I barely have time to do anything else, feels like time is running out & ive wasted the bulk of my life on sinning and entertainment crap. Now I’m trying to armour up in the Word ya know?

I believe in pre trib rapture but I don’t know how bad it’s gonna get for us, or anyone before that 7 year period. All I have to say is Maranatha!!!
 






phipps

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@Red Sky at Morning, I will explain here because its more appropriate for this forum.

Pre-tribulation does not agree with biblical teaching at all.

They insist that God has two distinctly different eternal plans and purposes for mankind, one which specifically concerns the ethnic nation of Israel, and one which concerns the Christian Church.

Lewis Sperry Chafer wrote, “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes, one related with earthly people and with earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly objects involved, which is Christianity.”

In effect then, dispensationalism claims that God has two families, or bodies, or classes of people which he calls His own.

Now few will deny that God may yet do a wonderful work of grace within the ethnic nation of Israel, but to claim that God has two “distinct bodies” or “families” of saved people is to contradict the plain teaching of scripture, as you will see from the verses below.

Ephesians 4:4-5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

John 10:16, "And other sheep (Gentiles) I have which are not of this fold (Jew); them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

Ephesians 3:6, "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel."

Galatians 3:16, " Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ."

Ephesians 2:15b, "so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace."

Ephesians 3:15, "from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (Note: only one family is mentioned).

Romans 11:17-24. Note: The Olive tree of these verses clearly refers to the whole body or family of God’s people, and is represented to us as just one tree. Into this one tree all Christian believers have been grafted (verse17). This does not mean that the Jews are without hope, for if they repent and believe the gospel message, they can and will be grafted back into their own tree (verse 24). Surely these verses are sufficient to prove conclusively that God does not have two peoples at all, and therefore the claim of dispensationalists that God has two eternal purposes for mankind must also be rejected.

God only has one people, one body, one church and He will treat them all equally and not separately. If you disagree, you disagree with the Word of God which is His message to us. Inspired by Him.
 






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Red Sky at Morning

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@Red Sky at Morning, I will explain here because its more appropriate for this forum.

Pre-tribulation does not agree with biblical teaching at all.

They insist that God has two distinctly different eternal plans and purposes for mankind, one which specifically concerns the ethnic nation of Israel, and one which concerns the Christian Church.

Lewis Sperry Chafer wrote, “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes, one related with earthly people and with earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly objects involved, which is Christianity.”

In effect then, dispensationalism claims that God has two families, or bodies, or classes of people which he calls His own.

Now few will deny that God may yet do a wonderful work of grace within the ethnic nation of Israel, but to claim that God has two “distinct bodies” or “families” of saved people is to contradict the plain teaching of scripture, as you will see from the verses below.

Ephesians 4:4-5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

John 10:16, "And other sheep (Gentiles) I have which are not of this fold (Jew); them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

Ephesians 3:6, "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel."

Galatians 3:16, " Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ."

Ephesians 2:15b, "so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace."

Ephesians 3:15, "from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (Note: only one family is mentioned).

Romans 11:17-24. Note: The Olive tree of these verses clearly refers to the whole body or family of God’s people, and is represented to us as just one tree. Into this one tree all Christian believers have been grafted (verse17). This does not mean that the Jews are without hope, for if they repent and believe the gospel message, they can and will be grafted back into their own tree (verse 24). Surely these verses are sufficient to prove conclusively that God does not have two peoples at all, and therefore the claim of dispensationalists that God has two eternal purposes for mankind must also be rejected.

God only has one people, one body, one church and He will treat them all equally and not separately. If you disagree, you disagree with the Word of God which is His message to us. Inspired by Him.
I think you are mistaken to push off a doctrinal derivation of the Pre-Trib view and then use that derivation to debunk the Rapture.

Let me give you an example to illustrate. I believe that God has had a hand in the return of the Jews to Israel in 1948, but may disagree with some of the pronouncements of blanket approval of Israel offered by John Hagee.

These imbalances in now way invalidate the fact that God has brought the Jews back to Israel as part of His end-time purposes....

Matthew 24

The Parable of the Fig Tree
32“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
 






phipps

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The Secret Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

“In recent times, dispensationalist theology has developed the idea of a “secret rapture”. This relates to their view that there will be a definable seven year period of intense persecution of the Jews, called “the time of Jacobs trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7).

In order for this to occur, the church must be removed from the earthly scene, consequently dispensationalists structure their eschatology to include a “Pre tribulation Rapture” which is secret in nature and separated by the “tribulation” from Parousia.

That this is a presumption not explicitly taught in scripture, honest dispensationalists freely admit.”
(Beacon Dictionary of Theology)

The issue now before us does not concern whether or not the Christian Church will one day be “raptured” or “caught up” to meet Christ in the air, for the Bible clearly and plainly teaches this doctrine (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), but the issue concerns whether or not the scripture teaches that the Church will be raptured secretly, seven years before the glorious visible return of Christ, as dispensationalists claim.

Dispensationalists quote the following verses of scripture to support their belief in the secret rapture of the Church. John 14:1-3, 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, 2 Thessalonians1:7-9, Jude 1:14-15, 1 Corinthians15:51-57, Zechariah14:1-5. We will now consider each of these verses in turn.

John 14:1-3. These verses most definitely refer to the return of the Lord Jesus for his people, but there is no indication whatsoever that this coming will take place seven years before his visible return.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. Certainly these verses speak to us of a rapture of the Church, but once again there is no suggestion at all that this rapture will take place at any other time than the Lord Jesus’ visible return. Actually verse 16 reads, “for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God”. Those words sound very much like the words of Matthew 24:31 which read, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, and from one end of heaven to the other”. This latter quotation is clearly referring to our Lord’s visible and glorious second coming which takes place at the end of this age,not seven years before the end of the age.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9. Again these verses are clearly referring to the Lord Jesus visible return, for verse 7 uses the words, “When the Lord shall be revealed from heaven, with his mighty angels”.

Jude 1:14-15. These verses again refer to Christ’s visible return, not to some secret coming seven years earlier.

1 Corinthians 15:14-15. Again, as with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 & Matthew 24:31, the last trumpet sounds and the rapture takes place, but I see no evidence in these verses to suggest that this great event takes place at any other time than the glorious, visible return of Christ.

Zechariah 14:1-5. These verses refer to the second coming of Christ with his saints, but there is no mention of a rapture at all in these verses. These verses refer to third return of Christ with the saints after they spend 1000 years spent in heaven with Him.

Sometimes Matthew 24:36-41 & Luke 17:26-29 are quoted in support of the secret rapture doctrine, however a careful reading of these passages soon reveals that no secret rapture is being spoken about here at all, for the scripture states, “but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.”

The simple fact of the matter is that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the “secret Rapture” at all, but dispensationalists have invented this teaching to support their own erroneous beliefs.

The biblical position is that the rapture of the living saints will take place at the time of Christ’s second coming. At this time all dead and living saints will be caught up to be with the Lord and will receive their glorified bodies.
 






phipps

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I think you are mistaken to push off a doctrinal derivation of the Pre-Trib view and then use that derivation to debunk the Rapture.

Let me give you an example to illustrate. I believe that God has had a hand in the return of the Jews to Israel in 1948, but may disagree with some of the pronouncements of blanket approval of Israel offered by John Hagee.

These imbalances in now way invalidate the fact that God has brought the Jews back to Israel as part of His end-time purposes....

Matthew 24

The Parable of the Fig Tree
32“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Let me give you an example to illustrate. I believe that God has had a hand in the return of the Jews to Israel in 1948, but may disagree with some of the pronouncements of blanket approval of Israel offered by John Hagee.
Just because you believe God had a hand in the return of the Jews to Israel does not do away with His Word. Bible truth and authority is what counts not what you believe. Biblically Israel is spiritual and involves all those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and obey His will. All the verses above say so and more. So of course I disagree with you because the Word of God does. I want you disagree with me using the Bible and the Bible only.

These imbalances in now way invalidate the fact that God has brought the Jews back to Israel as part of His end-time purposes....
Nothing invalidates the Bible (God's Word to us), not even the creation of the state of Israel. God does not have a different plan for Jews than the rest of the Christians. Not biblically. Whenever we read about end time prophecy there is no separation of Jews from Christians. This is completely man made doctrine. There is one body, one church, one people and to say different is to disagree with the Bible. I'm not saying these things, the Bible is.

Lets not forget that most Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. God has given them the same chances are the rest of the world to come to Him and accept the Messiah and if they do not change during that period, they will go to hell and lose their lives eternally like all other unrighteous people from around the world. The Bible is clear on that.

Matthew 24

The Parable of the Fig Tree
32“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
You are misinterpreting this scripture. God's Word does not contradict itself. If it says we are all one body (Jews and Gentiles), one church, and Jesus is head of that body/church how can it say something different else where?

1 Corinthians 12:12–27, "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many."

Ephesians 3:6, "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel."

Ephesians 5:23,
"For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body."

Colossians 1:18, "And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

Colossians 1:24, "I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church."


You have chosen to believe man instead of God. You quote what people have said on the subject and reject the Word of God completely. That is not what we are supposed to do. We are supposed to check to see if man's writings agree with the Bible and if they don't, we reject man NOT God! God is always right. His Word is truth regardless of what happens in the world. Eventually His truth wins and is proved right.

“Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:34-35).
 






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Todd

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Judging by fruit is a biblical mandate. Pretrib “fruit” is generally rotten. That’s all I have to say and don’t really care to engage in a great debate. I think there is a risk to loose a lot more if you believe pre-trib and it isn’t true than vice-versa. But that’s just me. Carry on...
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Judging by fruit is a biblical mandate. Pretrib “fruit” is generally rotten. That’s all I have to say and don’t really care to engage in a great debate. I think there is a risk to loose a lot more if you believe pre-trib and it isn’t true than vice-versa. But that’s just me. Carry on...
I found it interesting listening to the reasons people hate the Pre-Trib perspective...

Andy Woods, in his recent talk goes over many of the popular accusations made against the Pre-Trib doctrine...


As far as motivation is concerned, it is the fact that I don’t believe I will be here to warn others when the looming Tribulation begins that motivates me to share the gospel with anyone who will listen.

In Romans 6, Paul highlights a bad use that could be made of God’s grace, but does not back off from the doctrine of salvation by grace, through faith in Christ.
 






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Red Sky at Morning

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Just because you believe God had a hand in the return of the Jews to Israel does not do away with His Word. Bible truth and authority is what counts not what you believe. Biblically Israel is spiritual and involves all those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and obey His will. All the verses above say so and more. So of course I disagree with you because the Word of God does. I want you disagree with me using the Bible and the Bible only.



Nothing invalidates the Bible (God's Word to us), not even the creation of the state of Israel. God does not have a different plan for Jews than the rest of the Christians. Not biblically. Whenever we read about end time prophecy there is no separation of Jews from Christians. This is completely man made doctrine. There is one body, one church, one people and to say different is to disagree with the Bible. I'm not saying these things, the Bible is.

Lets not forget that most Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. God has given them the same chances are the rest of the world to come to Him and accept the Messiah and if they do not change during that period, they will go to hell and lose their lives eternally like all other unrighteous people from around the world. The Bible is clear on that.



You are misinterpreting this scripture. God's Word does not contradict itself. If it says we are all one body (Jews and Gentiles), one church, and Jesus is head of that body/church how can it say something different else where?

1 Corinthians 12:12–27, "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many."

Ephesians 3:6, "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel."

Ephesians 5:23,
"For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body."

Colossians 1:18, "And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

Colossians 1:24, "I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church."


You have chosen to believe man instead of God. You quote what people have said on the subject and reject the Word of God completely. That is not what we are supposed to do. We are supposed to check to see if man's writings agree with the Bible and if they don't, we reject man NOT God! God is always right. His Word is truth regardless of what happens in the world. Eventually His truth wins and is proved right.

“Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:34-35).
Matthew 23 indicates that there will be a time when national Israel will say “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”.

In Romans 9,10 and 11, Paul describes the present (at the time of writing) state of Israel, where the Gentile church fits in with God’s plan, and of a future national dealing with Israel.

Make of it what you will, and take the doctrinal stance you choose @phipps
 






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phipps

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Matthew 23 indicates that there will be a time when national Israel will say “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”.

In Romans 9,10 and 11, Paul describes the present (at the time of writing) state of Israel, where the Gentile church fits in with God’s plan, and of a future national dealing with Israel.

Make of it what you will, and take the doctrinal stance you choose @phipps
Matthew 23 indicates that there will be a time when national Israel will say “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”.
It doesn't. No one nation on earth will say that on earth. It will be people from different nations around the world who will say that and who make up Israel/God's church/God's people. Also do not forget that the Bible especially in the New Covenant does not separate Jews from Gentiles. They are all Israel/God's church/God's people. I have quoted a lot of scripture to you that disagrees entirely with this pre-trib man made doctrine. Who are you going to believe, God or man? Do not dismiss scripture or bend it to fit it in with your doctrine.

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Romans 9:6,
"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel."

Galatians 3:29,
"And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Galatians 3:14, "that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."


In Romans 9,10 and 11, Paul describes the present (at the time of writing) state of Israel, where the Gentile church fits in with God’s plan, and of a future national dealing with Israel.
The scripture above was written by Paul. Is he contradicting himself? Is he contradicting the entire Bible? Its pre-trib that contradicts the Bible.

Make of it what you will, and take the doctrinal stance you choose @phipps
Its you who is taking a doctrinal stance, a false one at that. If you just study the Bible on this subject you will see that you are wrong and I say that because its true.

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

This scripture is plain and clear to understand. We shall all be treated as one according to the Bible. Your doctrine contradicts the Bible.
 






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Karlysymon

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As far as motivation is concerned, it is the fact that I don’t believe I will be here to warn others when the looming Tribulation begins that motivates me to share the gospel with anyone who will listen.
As you are well aware, the OT is replete with descriptions of the Second Coming of Christ. Descriptions of not just terrestrial but also cosmic changes before, during and after the event.

So i challenge you to find me just 10 verses, even 3, that are descriptive of the Rapture in the OT. Sure, an event that momentous and concerning God's chosen people at the end of the age would be found over and over again in the OT as the Second Coming is, don't you think?

Furthermore, if a mass of people suddenly disappeared in October without a trace around the world. How would you differentiate a real rapture from a fake one? Because the descriptions of the Second Coming in the OT are given us so we may be able to distinguish the real from the fake.
 






phipps

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The Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

The doctrine of the “millennium” and the “pre millennial” return of Christ, is an integral part of dispensation theology.

What do the words “millennium” and “pre millennial” mean?

Millennium. The word (from the Latin mille “a thousand”) refers to the idea of a future reign of Christ on earth for a period of 1000 years. Those who embrace the idea are called millenarians or chiliasts (from the Greek chilias “a thousand”)

Premillennialism. “The English term was coined from three Latin terms (Prae, mille, annus), meaning, “before the thousand years.” Premillennialism identifies a type of Christian eschatology notably distinguished by an emphasis upon the personal return of Christ to earth before the millennium (mentioned only in Revelation 20:1-10), i.e, a thousand year interim reign of Christ and certain of His saints, itself preceding the final consumption.” (Beacons Dictionary of Theology).

The question we are have to consider is whether or not the Bible clearly teaches a future millennial kingdom of Christ, and the simple answer to that question is “no it does not”. Please consider these points.

1. The Doctrine of a future millennium is not clearly in the Bible.

a. There is not a single mention of any millennial kingdom in the Old Testament.

b. There is not a single mention of any millennial kingdom in the gospels.

c. The Lord Jesus in all his teaching on future events never once made any mention of a millennial kingdom.

d. There is not a single mention of a millennial kingdom in any New Testament epistle.

e. The only place in the entire Bible where you will find any reference to a thousand year reign of Christ is found in Revelation 20, and there you will observe six references in the first seven verses.

Of course dispensationalists insist that these references are more than sufficient to establish once and for all the doctrine of the pre-millennial reign of Christ, but this is not the case.

2. The Doctrine of a future millennial reign of Christ, is based on a “selective” literalization of the book of Revelation.

For example:

a. No one would suggest that the woman of Revelation 12:1 is a literal woman, for she is said to be “clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet.”

b. Nor would any sensible person suggest that the “locusts” of Revelation 9:7, are literal locusts, for they are described as having the “faces of men” and “golden crowns” upon their heads.

c. And is the scarlet coloured beast of Revelation 17 a literal beast? For it is described as being “full of the names of blasphemy and drunk with the blood of the saints.”

The point is, that if dispensationalists see fit to “spiritually” interpret these things, why do they not see fit to spiritually interpret the “numbers” and “times” mentioned in the book as well? The simple answer to this question is, because if they did that it would completely destroy their millennial understanding of the Bible.

3. The Doctrine of a future millennial reign of Christ ignores the repetitive unfolding of the book of Revelation.

The book of Revelation contains seven revelations of the New Testament Church age. Each revelation covers the entire inter-advent period. The sixth revelation concludes at the end of chapter 19, and therefore chapter 20 begins yet another account of the New Testament Church age.

What we learn from this is, that during this present age the Lord Jesus Christ is reigning supreme over all creation. Satan, has been rendered powerless before Him. This is how this age will continue until the end, at which time Satan will be loosed for a short season, but the Lord will soon destroy him, and then will follow the final judgment.
 






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phipps

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continued...

4. Revelation 20 does not speak of a physical earthly millennium, but speaks of a “spiritual heavenly millennium.” A careful reading of Revelation 20:4 soon reveals that it is “the souls” of the martyrs that John sees in heaven, and therefore it is the ‘martyrs’ who are said to reign with Christ for the symbolic period of one thousand years.

Dr.B.B. Warfield writes:
“Meanwhile as the conquest of the world is going on below, the saints who die in the Lord are gathered in Paradise to reign with their Lord, Who is Lord of all, and Who is from His throne directing the conquest of the world. When the victory is completely won there intervenes the last judgment and the final destruction of the wicked.”

The above statement dovetails beautifully with all other passages of scripture concerning the end of the age, and particularly with 1 Corinthians 15:25, which reads:

“For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.”

5. The theory of an earthly “millennium” is based entirely upon tradition and assumption.

“It is said that one verse in thirty of the New Testament relates to the second coming of Christ. Yet not one verse refers to a millennial reign upon earth! Not even the Mystical and symbolical “thousand years” of Revelation chapter 20, hints at an earthly Utopia.

The complete silence of the New Testament regarding any earthly “millennium” cannot be ignored.

Likewise not one verse of the Old Testament even hints of a reign of a thousand year duration. This being so, the whole theory of an earthly “millennium” must be based entirely upon tradition and assumption”.
(Archibald Hughes. A New Heaven and New Earth. Page 209 & 210).

6. The Doctrine of a future millennium completely contradicts many plain passages of scripture.

a. The doctrine of a future millennium contradicts the plain teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in Matthew 13 speaks of the wheat and tares, and the good fish and bad fish. Our Saviour states in these two parables that both must stay together until the harvest, at which time the angels of God will separate the one from the other. Immediately after the harvest the final judgment is said to take place, at which, the good will be kept and the bad cast into the fire.

The parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-14), and the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) repeats the same order of events, as does Matthew 25:31-46 and Luke 17:22-31.

b. The teaching of the Apostolic epistles agree totally with the teaching of our Lord Jesus when they state plainly that the righteous and wicked will remain together until the second coming of Christ, at which the two will be separated and the final judgment will take place. (see, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9, 2 Thessalonians1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:1-18).

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 sums up perfectly the plain teaching of the entire New Testament, I quote:

"But each one in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power."

Link.
 






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Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,990
Dear @phipps

Perhaps this will summarise for others reading why we don’t see eye to eye on eschatology:-

SDA Hermeneutics

Adventists believe the Christian church is the historical continuation of the Old Testament Israel as God's people, centered around Jesus, and that Old Testament end-time prophecies about Israel will be fulfilled more broadly. (This stands in contrast to dispensationalism, a popular conservative Christian view, which sees a prominent place for the nation of Israel in the end-times). Adventist hermeneutics categorically rejects preterism, futurism and idealism as proper hermeneutical systems of interpretation of Bible prophecy.

Ellen White and SDA pioneers

The writings of Ellen G. White have been highly influential in the formation of Seventh-day Adventist eschatology, particularly the final chapters of her book The Great Controversy.

The classic interpretation was Uriah Smith's book, known by its abbreviated title as Daniel and the Revelation. It was affirmed by Ellen White, "and had an unrivaled influence on [Adventist] prophetic teaching." It was based on his earlier works Thoughts, Critical and Practical, on the Book of Revelation (1867), and Thoughts, Critical and Practical, on the Book of Daniel (1873). The book was revised several times during Smith's life and afterwards. The Seventh-day Adventist Encyclopedia states, "Although a creative writer, he also borrowed from contemporary and early expositors for his materials, especially in his interpretations of prophecy."


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Red Sky at Morning

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Joined
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Messages
9,990
As you are well aware, the OT is replete with descriptions of the Second Coming of Christ. Descriptions of not just terrestrial but also cosmic changes before, during and after the event.

So i challenge you to find me just 10 verses, even 3, that are descriptive of the Rapture in the OT. Sure, an event that momentous and concerning God's chosen people at the end of the age would be found over and over again in the OT as the Second Coming is, don't you think?

Furthermore, if a mass of people suddenly disappeared in October without a trace around the world. How would you differentiate a real rapture from a fake one? Because the descriptions of the Second Coming in the OT are given us so we may be able to distinguish the real from the fake.
@Karlysymon

Paul speaks of “mysteries” in a number of his letters. It turns out (and I didn’t know this till searched on “seven mysteries Paul” that there do indeed seem to be seven of them.

I found a number of resources that broke these down and taught on them, one was a playlist by Robert Breaker. The second was an interesting address...


THE SEVEN MYSTERIES REVEALED TO PAUL
Dr. W. A. Criswell
That first definition in the dictionary: this thing is a "mystery" – that is, by human reason it is incomprehensible; it is unfathomable; it is unknowable; it is inexplicable. This thing is a "mystery." That’s the way you use the word.​
Now, the meaning of that word in ancient time and the use of that word in the Bible is not that at all. It is altogether something else and something different. Now this is anciently what the word "mystery" meant, and this is the way the word is used in the New Testament. The Greek word is musterion, and it comes from the word mustes. And a mustes was one who was initiated into the secret rites of an ancient – one of the ancient mystery religions.​
In order for you to get an idea of that, I couldn’t think of a better illustration than the Masonic Lodge or the Eastern Star. There are mysteries, there are secrets, there are fraternal revelations that are made to the initiates when they go into those lodges. You do not know them. They are secret. They are hidden, and you do not know them until they are revealed to the initiated. A lot of you men are Masons. You know what I’m speaking of.​
Now, in the ancient day, they had mystery religions, and an initiate into those religions was called a mustes; and it comes from the Greek word muo which is on the stem mumu which is made by closing your mouth, mu, m-u, mu. The Latin word mutas, meaning "dumb," is built on that. And the English word "mute" – he’s deaf and dumb, he’s a mute – is built on that. The word comes from the stem mu which means to close your mouth or to close your ears or to close your eyes to keep a thing secret: muo, mystes, musterion.​
Now, those mystery religions were the great religions of the ancient Greek world. The most famous, I suppose, were the Eleusinian mysteries at Eleusis. That was the state religion of Attica, of Athens. It was the worship of Demeter, the goddess, and Persephone, her daughter – a goddess.​
And the people of the state of Attica, the Athenians, would make those pilgrimages down to Eleusis and there they were initiated into the mystery religion by which they were identified with the goddess and were assured of a happy, blissful immortality.​
Now, that word musterion did not at all refer to a thing that was incomprehensible, that was unfathomable, that was inexplicable – what you’d call a mystery – but the word musterion referred to the secrets of the mystery religion that were revealed to those votaries who were initiated into that religion. It might be easy to understand; it might be hard to understand; but in any event, the word referred to the secrets that were revealed to the initiated in the mystery religion.​
Now, that is the way the word is used here in the New Testament – that ancient word that refers to a secret revealed. Here is something that has been kept hidden in the heart of God from the beginning of the world but is now revealed to the initiated. All of God’s children now are going into the Masonic lodge. All of God’s children now are going through the orphic mysteries. All of God’s children now are going through the Eleusinian mysteries.​
Egypt had them: the mysteries of Isis and Osiris. The Persians had it: the mystery of Mithraism. They were the great religions, actually, of the ancient world.​
Now, they used that word in the New Testament to refer to those who are going to be initiated into the secrets of God. Now, you’ll see the word used by Jesus in that way in the thirteenth chapter of the Book of Matthew. He says:​
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​
And the disciples came and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"​
He answered and said, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given . . .​
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing do not see, and hearing they do not hear.​
You are going to be initiated into the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. To them, they’re not going to be initiated. They can’t see and they can’t hear. But you, you’re going to understand the mysteries of the kingdom.​

Continues:-


My point is this. Many commentators have observed that the Church appears in brackets with regard to God’s plans. An interesting resonance in the gospels is when Jesus meets the Samaritan woman at the well and gives her a very clear presentation of the gospel.


He then stays with the people of that area two days, before returning to his mission with the Jews.

To begin to understand where the Rapture fits in, gaining a grasp of the “mysteries” revealed to Paul is essential background.

Do we find the Church in the OT? Moses took a gentile bride, so did Joseph. The story of Ruth and Boaz... the list goes on, but nowhere does it say “God will in the latter time bring forth His Church” or similar ;-)

In the same way, if the Rapture were true, I might expect to find verses that contain a pattern, but with a veiled meaning. I think this is my favourite, but if I get chance I will dig up a few more for you later...

Isaiah 26

Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment

20Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
1,966
Dear @phipps

Perhaps this will summarise for others reading why we don’t see eye to eye on eschatology:-

SDA Hermeneutics

Adventists believe the Christian church is the historical continuation of the Old Testament Israel as God's people, centered around Jesus, and that Old Testament end-time prophecies about Israel will be fulfilled more broadly. (This stands in contrast to dispensationalism, a popular conservative Christian view, which sees a prominent place for the nation of Israel in the end-times). Adventist hermeneutics categorically rejects preterism, futurism and idealism as proper hermeneutical systems of interpretation of Bible prophecy.

Ellen White and SDA pioneers

The writings of Ellen G. White have been highly influential in the formation of Seventh-day Adventist eschatology, particularly the final chapters of her book The Great Controversy.

The classic interpretation was Uriah Smith's book, known by its abbreviated title as Daniel and the Revelation. It was affirmed by Ellen White, "and had an unrivaled influence on [Adventist] prophetic teaching." It was based on his earlier works Thoughts, Critical and Practical, on the Book of Revelation (1867), and Thoughts, Critical and Practical, on the Book of Daniel (1873). The book was revised several times during Smith's life and afterwards. The Seventh-day Adventist Encyclopedia states, "Although a creative writer, he also borrowed from contemporary and early expositors for his materials, especially in his interpretations of prophecy."


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I knew you would do this. I am not going to do this with you again because you don't know anything about SDA's nor Ellen G White. You've just copy pasted again something you know nothing about and this is to deviate from the subject of this forum. This tactic is wasted on me.

You are behaving like all the others here who reject the Bible on specific subjects and when I show them actual biblical scripture and prove God's truths they retaliate like you're doing. So immature!

Now the subject at hand is pre-trib is not biblical at all. One does not have to be an SDA or agree with their teachings but just study the Bible and they will see that pre-trib is not biblical and therefore not of God. It is man made doctrine.

Prove pre-trib from the Bible or don't bother replying me. And the SDA's are right (its all biblical) unless you can prove them wrong.

The ball is in your court.
 






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