The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture

[phipps]

Will Jesus come like a thief in the night?

The Bible says, “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10, see also 1 Thessalonians 5:2).

But does this mean that He will come secretly and snatch away the saved, leaving the wicked behind? No. This very text that says Jesus will come like a thief in the night, also says that the heavens will pass away with a great noise. That won’t be secret!

So what does it mean for Jesus to come “like a thief in the night?” The apostle Paul says, “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober” (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Jesus’ coming will be unexpected by those who are not watching and waiting for Him. It will come upon them like a thief in the night. But His people—who are not of the night nor of darkness—will be looking for Him. They will be aware of the signs of His coming and will know that it is near. Jesus’ coming will not overtake them like the unexpected appearance of a thief. That’s what the Bible means by saying that Jesus’ coming will be like a thief in the night—it will be unexpected to those who are not watching for Him.

The "Day" of the Lord comes as a thief in the night

Note: both 2 Peter 3:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2 do not speak about the “Lord” coming as a thief in the night, but rather the “day” of the Lord coming as a thief. This completely changes the meaning of the verse. In fact, the subject of the sentence is “day,” while the phrase modifying the subject is “of the Lord.” Christians are to watch and be ready for the “day" of the Lord to come suddenly, but once the event is at hand it cannot be hidden. It will be very obvious when Jesus comes again!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

​

Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.
​

Recommended Resource: Three Views on the Rapture by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., ed.

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? | GotQuestions.org

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? Are the Rapture and the Second Coming different events?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[TokiEl]

The 70th Week

There is a remaining seven-year period to be fulfilled. This period is the most documented period in the entire Bible. The Book of Revelation, Chapters 6 through 19, is essentially a detailing of that climactic period.

The interval between the 69th and 70th week continues, but it is increasingly apparent that it may soon be over.

The more one is familiar with the numerous climactic themes of “end-time” prophecy, the more it seems that Daniel’s 70th Week is on our horizon.

This prophecy is a bit tricky.


*Countdown 1: From the command to rebuild jewish Jerusalem count 7x360 weeks + 62x360 weeks until the Christ.

*Countdown 2: From the command to restore jewish Jerusalem count 7x360 weeks until the Antichrist.


So the 1st countdown is from Nisan in the 20th year of king Artaxerxes (march 444 BC) and the 2nd countdown is from june 7 1967 when the jews restored control over the Old City.

According to this prophecy the Christ would come on or right after Nisan 33 AD and the Antichrist would come on or right after Sept 23 2015.

That means the 70th week is truly halfway already.

 

[Mercedes007]

I knew you would do this. I am not going to do this with you again because you don't know anything about SDA's nor Ellen G White. You've just copy pasted again something you know nothing about and this is to deviate from the subject of this forum. This tactic is wasted on me.

You are behaving like all the others here who reject the Bible on specific subjects and when I show them actual biblical scripture and prove God's truths they retaliate like you're doing. So immature!

Now the subject at hand is pre-trib is not biblical at all. One does not have to be an SDA or agree with their teachings but just study the Bible and they will see that pre-trib is not biblical and therefore not of God. It is man made doctrine.

Prove pre-trib from the Bible or don't bother replying me. And the SDA's are right (its all biblical) unless you can prove them wrong.

The ball is in your court.

I have to comment, reading your response as your intent may be misinterpreted. I myself am learning and haven’t concentrated on this issue much as others as I don’t find this doctrine to be essential to the faith. I have gone back and forth through my time learning and am still trying to determine the rapture timing etc. and doing Bible studies on all angles, so I don’t really have a dog in this fight. Although I hope it to be Pretrib, and believe it to be so at this point, I am looking for the Holy Spirit to lead me to the truth first and foremost using the Word. I don’t want to be right, I want the truth. I am open to all interpretations and enjoy all productive Bible studies, so I started really considering your comments.

However, if you are trying to convince others of a certain truth that has nothing to do with salvation or sin really, I find your responses to be a bit confrontational and somewhat demeaning, and this has become very off putting. In turn instead of convincing me of your perspective this draws me further away from you (and if that’s the truth as you see it, then it draws me personally further from the truth As you see it) which I hope is not your intention.

Now It doesn’t seem that you are trying to convince others of your viewpoint because of a motivation of love, but rather because you want to be right. Getting upset and calling others immature etc , telling them how they are to respond to you etc..doesn’t seem like you are responding or writing because of or With love. You say to respond with scripture only or you won’t look at it, yet I’ve read your responses that include many non scriptural quotes and supports, which seems a bit hypocritical.

If your faith is in Jesus and this isnt a salvational issue, I can’t understand the need to respond to others in this manner... Arent we to help those weaker if faith, if that is how you see it? It seems the conversation then has become sinful and is no longer about helping those weaker in the faith, as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. There are ways of explaining things without putting each other down.

If you know this trib timing to be true and are trying to convince others, I can tell you from my perspective that it is not working. If you season things with love and use love as your motivation, (doing all things out of love) perhaps you would get somewhere. But doing things out of your own ambition will not fair as well with others you are trying to convince. You already know what you believe to be the truth so I can only assume and give you the benefit of the doubt that you indeed are trying to Help others, it just doesn’t seem like it by reading your responses.

I also think this belongs on the other trib threads. I’m reading through all of them so I also am confused why this is here. This whole thread seems to have taken a very exhaustive unproductive and argumentative tone which I don’t believe God Intends with Bible studies. We are all on the same team despite doctrinal differences and misunderstandings.

 

[TokiEl]

I don’t want to be right, I want the truth.

Right that's true.

I am not emotionally invested in any doctrine... just cold hard facts and brutal truths.

 

[phipps]

@Mercedes007,

I have to comment, reading your response as your intent may be misinterpreted. I myself am learning and haven’t concentrated on this issue much as others as I don’t find this doctrine to be essential to the faith. I have gone back and forth through my time learning and am still trying to determine the rapture timing etc. and doing Bible studies on all angles, so I don’t really have a dog in this fight. Although I hope it to be Pretrib, and believe it to be so at this point, I am looking for the Holy Spirit to lead me to the truth first and foremost using the Word. I don’t want to be right, I want the truth. I am open to all interpretations and enjoy all productive Bible studies, so I started really considering your comments.

I hope the Holy Spirit leads you to the truth but its not pretrib. Pretrib is not biblical at all (this is just the truth). I am a frank person and don't know how to beat about the bush I'm afraid.

However, if you are trying to convince others of a certain truth that has nothing to do with salvation or sin really, I find your responses to be a bit confrontational and somewhat demeaning, and this has become very off putting. In turn instead of convincing me of your perspective this draws me further away from you (and if that’s the truth as you see it, then it draws me personally further from the truth As you see it) which I hope is not your intention.

I am a biblical Chrisitain, how can I try to convince anyone of a truth that has nothing to do with salvation or sin? You must not have read a lot of what I have posted in here. I may come across as confrontational but I don't know any other way of responding. That is how I am in person too. My bedside manner may not be to your liking but I do not mean to be demeaning nor am I trying to be. Perhaps you should focus on what I post not how I do it.

Now It doesn’t seem that you are trying to convince others of your viewpoint because of a motivation of love, but rather because you want to be right. Getting upset and calling others immature etc , telling them how they are to respond to you etc..doesn’t seem like you are responding or writing because of or With love. You say to respond with scripture only or you won’t look at it, yet I’ve read your responses that include many non scriptural quotes and supports, which seems a bit hypocritical.

I am not trying to convince anyone nor do I have the power to. That's the job of the Holy Spirit. What I am trying to do is lead them to the truth in my way and then maybe they can study the scripture more for themselves as they are led by the Holy Spirit. I am not trying to be right although I know I come across like that. I stopped caring how I come across here. Many times here I stop/cut short arguments because its not about me. Its about God's truth from His Word. .

I have made none scriptural quotes (as we all do here) and I have never claimed I don't. I make sure that what I''m quoting aligns with scripture and not based on what a person wrote or said. Its one of the reasons I quote scripture a lot.

And btw I have read about pretrib and the scripture they quote that is misinterpreted.

If your faith is in Jesus and this isnt a salvational issue, I can’t understand the need to respond to others in this manner... Arent we to help those weaker if faith, if that is how you see it? It seems the conversation then has become sinful and is no longer about helping those weaker in the faith, as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. There are ways of explaining things without putting each other down.

How can a Christian's faith not be Salvational? Jesus died on the cross to save us. Everything in the Bible revolves round that. Clearly you haven't read most of my posts or you wouldn't say something like this to me.

What manner exactly have I posted in that is upsetting you? A forum was started of pretrib, I posted why pretrib cannot be biblical. I haven't been rude at all even though you think I have. How else am I to post God's truth from the Bible? I am a particular person who when I make a point want to show all the proof available I can so the person can understand the point I am making. Is it the scripture I quote that seems rude to you?

I am not here to stroke anyone's ego and agree with them for the sake of it because we are all Christians. I am here to post God's truth. That is what matters. If I say a doctrine is wrong that is because it is. If that is upsetting to you, then perhaps don't read my posts. I won't stop being truthful in a candid way. I can't please everyone.

If you know this trib timing to be true and are trying to convince others, I can tell you from my perspective that it is not working. If you season things with love and use love as your motivation, (doing all things out of love) perhaps you would get somewhere. But doing things out of your own ambition will not fair as well with others you are trying to convince. You already know what you believe to be the truth so I can only assume and give you the benefit of the doubt that you indeed are trying to Help others, it just doesn’t seem like it by reading your responses.

This is how I do things and its with love otherwise why bother? Why bother showing anyone why their doctrine is wrong? Its because I want them to see the truth and understand Jesus more. I am not an ambitious person at all so none of this is out of ambition. Anyway what would ambition gain here really? What is it that you think I am trying to gain? I have nothing to gain at all.

also think this belongs on the other trib threads. I’m reading through all of them so I also am confused why this is here. This whole thread seems to have taken a very exhaustive unproductive and argumentative tone which I don’t believe God Intends with Bible studies. We are all on the same team despite doctrinal differences and misunderstandings.

This is a pretrib thread isn't it? Why would I post in the other trib threads about the pretrib doctrine? I am not arguing with anyone here but OP knows what he did to make it seem like I was posting a denominational doctrine other than a biblical one.

I am however going to post more on why pretrib is not biblical (because I had three more posts to post, they were planned) and if one person reads and understand and studies their Bible while being led by the Holy spirit that's great. It leads one more person to understand God. You've misunderstood me and my motivations.

I am on the biblical doctrine team not on the same team with doctrines that differ and outrightly reject the Bible. There are many false doctrines within Christendom and if they are I say so directly and truthfully while showing how from the Bible.

 

[phipps]

Raptured or Left Behind?

But doesn’t Matthew 24:37-42 say that when Jesus comes, some people will be snatched away and others will be left behind? Let’s see what Matthew says. “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming” (Matthew 24:37-42).

Matthew says that when Jesus comes it will be like it was in the time of Noah—some people will be saved (left) and other people will be destroyed (taken). Looking more in-depth at Matthew’s wording, those who are “taken” when Jesus comes are those who are lost, taken away, and destroyed by the brightness of His coming (see 2 Thessalonians 2:8).

You can think of it like this, imagine a flood swept through your town. Those who escaped, were left behind by the waters of the flood, while those who lost their lives were taken away by the water. Additionally, in the parallel passage of Luke 17:37, Jesus’ 12 apostles ask the question, “Where Lord?” referring to those who are taken. Jesus responds by saying, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” Thus Jesus again explains that those who are taken will be destroyed as is symbolized by the gathering of vultures seeking to consume the dead. Therefore, we can see that the Bible does not support the idea of the secret rapture for the saved.

(Note: Logically and scripturally, the question “where” only applies to those who are taken, because the location of those who are left would be the exact same location as before the event occurred.)

Those who hold to the idea of a secret rapture also believe that there will be seven years of tribulation following the rapture and that during this time individuals who were left on earth will have another opportunity to accept Jesus and be saved. Is there any Bible evidence for this belief?

 

[Douglas Summers]

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

​

Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

Recommended Resource: Three Views on the Rapture by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., ed.

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? | GotQuestions.org

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? Are the Rapture and the Second Coming different events?

www.gotquestions.org

Good Teaching Red,, There is one more resurrection yet to happen after the Rapture and the return of the Lord to the earth. It is the second resurrection described in Revelation, The resurrection of the wicked dead before the Great White Throne Judgment where the books of works are opened as they are judged by there works (excuses). This comes at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. I know you can find the scripture...I was running late and did not have time.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Those who hold to the idea of a secret rapture also believe that there will be seven years of tribulation following the rapture and that during this time individuals who were left on earth will have another opportunity to accept Jesus and be saved. Is there any Bible evidence for this belief?

Good question @phipps

After the seven letters to the churches, and 19 mentions of the word “church”, the term disappears from the book of Revelation. Instead the terms “Saint” and “elect” are substituted.This alone is taken by some to indicate that the church is no longer on the earth after the words “come up hither” are uttered after the voice that sounded “like a trumpet”.

After that, there are many examples where the saints and the elect refuse the mark, and who die rather than bow the knee to the Antichrist.

As the word “saint” is also applied to OT believers, it doesn’t automatically indicate a church-age believer.

While some Christians believe that God has ceased to have any future purpose for national Israel, and believe in replacement theology, I disagree on this point.

I am just listening to Ephesians 3 and I have to say that find the notion that it is unbiblical to be “dispensational” perplexing.

(Btw, as for my motivations for identifying your SDA denominational position, I am simply pointing it out by way of being up-front, in the same way as I am open about holding a pre-trib, pre-millennial, “God not done with Israel yet”, dispensationsaved by grace alone the trough faith alone in Christ alone theology.)

 

[seekinheart]

Good question @phipps

After the seven letters to the churches, and 19 mentions of the word “church”, the term disappears from the book of Revelation. Instead the terms “Saint” and “elect” are substituted.This alone is taken by some to indicate that the church is no longer on the earth after the words “come up hither” are uttered after the voice that sounded “like a trumpet”.

After that, there are many examples where the saints and the elect refuse the mark, and who die rather than bow the knee to the Antichrist.

As the word “saint” is also applied to OT believers, it doesn’t automatically indicate a church-age believer.

While some Christians believe that God has ceased to have any future purpose for national Israel, and believe in replacement theology, I disagree on this point.

I am just listening to Ephesians 3 and I have to say that find the notion that it is unbiblical to be “dispensational” perplexing.

(Btw, as for my motivations for identifying your SDA denominational position, I am simply pointing it out by way of being up-front, in the same way as I am open about holding a pre-trib, pre-millennial, “God not done with Israel yet”, dispensationsaved by grace alone the trough faith alone in Christ alone theology.)

I lean towards pre trib just from revelations people have had, the only thing I do find strange is that Jesus and early christians suffered immensely, and yet people are just going to be raptured away and not suffer half as much particularly not be killed, not that I want that, I just find it a bit odd, because Christ says dont expect to suffer less than him, Peter himself was crucified upside down.

 

[phipps]

Good question @phipps

After the seven letters to the churches, and 19 mentions of the word “church”, the term disappears from the book of Revelation. Instead the terms “Saint” and “elect” are substituted.This alone is taken by some to indicate that the church is no longer on the earth after the words “come up hither” are uttered after the voice that sounded “like a trumpet”.

After that, there are many examples where the saints and the elect refuse the mark, and who die rather than bow the knee to the Antichrist.

As the word “saint” is also applied to OT believers, it doesn’t automatically indicate a church-age believer.

While some Christians believe that God has ceased to have any future purpose for national Israel, and believe in replacement theology, I disagree on this point.

I am just listening to Ephesians 3 and I have to say that find the notion that it is unbiblical to be “dispensational” perplexing.

(Btw, as for my motivations for identifying your SDA denominational position, I am simply pointing it out by way of being up-front, in the same way as I am open about holding a pre-trib, pre-millennial, “God not done with Israel yet”, dispensationsaved by grace alone the trough faith alone in Christ alone theology.)

Something so important as the church being raptured secretly would have been mentioned in the Bible specifically. Because it is a very important subject to know about. Its about our eternal fate. The Bible is replete with scripture after scripture about the second coming and people being caught up in the air when Jesus comes at the last day, from the Old to the New Testament. But a secret rapture is not mentioned once. It is not written of anywhere in the BIble.

When the Bible mentions the saints, the righteous, one body, Israel, it is talking about the church. God's true people. Research what the word saints means. Please show me specific scripture that says that the church will be raptured secretly?

So Pretrib not only separates Israel from the church but the saints are not part of the church now too?

I was just going to post on the 7 year tribulation too. It will have more information in it.

 

[phipps]

Seven Year Tribulation

First, there is no biblical evidence for a seven-year period of tribulation following Jesus’ return to Earth. And the Bible is clear that when Jesus returns, every person’s eternal fate has been decided; individuals who are lost will not have a second chance to be saved. Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12). The Bible presents Jesus’ second coming as the great climactic event of the ages when men and women are either saved or lost for eternity. There is no seven-year period to reconsider our lives and change our destiny. Jesus pictured the separation that will take place at His coming between the righteous and the wicked—the saved and the lost—in these words: “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’ . . . Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels’ ” (Matthew 25:31-34, 41).

That is not to say there will not be a tribulation. The Bible does certainly foretell of a soon coming “time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time” before Jesus’ return (Daniel 12:1). However, does Scripture support the interpretation that Christian believers will be raptured, and taken away from the tribulation, leaving only the wicked?

Jesus doesn’t leave us in the dark and sheds light on the event that will be like none other before it. “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened” (Matthew 24:21-22).

Are the elect raptured before the tribulation?

One must question, if the “elect,” or God’s people, are raptured before “the great tribulation,” why would they need the days “shortened?” Actually, all throughout the Bible, we are given examples of God’s people being saved in the middle of tribulations, not being saved before it.

When the Israelites were captive in Egypt, God preserved them in the midst of the plagues that devastated Egypt. Just as Israel was delivered from Egyptian bondage after the plagues, so God's church will be protected through the plagues and be delivered from the hand of the oppressor (1 Corinthians 10:11; Psalm 91; Psalm 46).

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego entered the flames when they refused to yield to the universal death decree of Babylon's King. Their death-defying faith forced them to face the flames of tribulation, and in those flames God miraculously delivered them (Daniel 3:16-28).

Daniel’s decision to be faithful in his daily prayers caused him to be tossed into the lion’s den. God saved Daniel while he was going through tribulation, not before it came (Daniel 6).

Similarly, right before Christ returns, the faithfulness of the elect will cause them to be the target of the ungodly, bringing about a time of persecution and great tribulation. However, just as throughout all of Biblical history, God preserves His elect. The same Jesus that was with the Hebrew men in the fire and lion’s den, will go with us through our trials. When the last day judgments are poured out on the world, God will shield those who follow Him with all their heart and mind.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Seven Year Tribulation

First, there is no biblical evidence for a seven-year period of tribulation following Jesus’ return to Earth.

Which sources do you think these misled “Bible Teachers” get the idea of these seven years from? I’m intrigued by the boldness of your claim?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Something so important as the church being raptured [secretly] would have been mentioned in the Bible specifically.

Where does the concept of “secret” come from? Was the Church a “secret” in the OT? Again, interested...

 

[phipps]

Where does the concept of “secret” come from? Was the Church a “secret” in the OT? Again, interested...

You tell me. How else is the church going to be raptured according to pretrib then? Will the church be raptured the way the Bible says Jesus' second coming will be? The Bible tells us that when Jesus comes back the second time at the last day, its going to be visible and loud to everyone (Matthew 24:27, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 1:7), every person will know the second coming is occurring! The Lord shouts, a trumpet blasts, and the dead are raised! The second coming will not be a quiet event. The Bible plainly states that the second coming will be a literal, worldwide, visible, personal appearance of Christ in the clouds.

Can you please show me scripture that says the church is going to be raptured before Jesus' second coming? This should be a momentous event yet I have never seen scripture of it anywhere in the Bible. I don't know the whole Bible so please guide me to the specific scriptures that say that. All I know is about the rapture at the second coming that is written of in the Bible. When the saints will be caught up in the air to be with the Lord as the verses below state:

Psalm 50:3, "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."

Matthew 24:30-31, "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints at the second coming).

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You tell me. How else is the church going to be raptured according to pretrib then? Will the church be raptured like way the Bible says Jesus' second coming will be? The Bible tells us that when Jesus comes back the second time at the last day, its going to be visible and loud to everyone (Matthew 24:27, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 1:7), every person will know the second coming is occurring! The Lord shouts, a trumpet blasts, and the dead are raised! The second coming will not be a quiet event. The Bible plainly states that the second coming will be a literal, worldwide, visible, personal appearance of Christ in the clouds.

Can you please show me scripture that says the church is going to be raptured before Jesus' second coming? This should be a momentous event yet I have never seen scripture of it anywhere in the Bible. I don't know the whole Bible so please guide me to the specific scriptures that say that. All I know is about the rapture at the second coming that is written of in the Bible. When the saints will be caught up in the air to be with the Lord as the verses below state:

Psalm 50:3, "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."

Matthew 24:30-31, "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints at the second coming).

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

I think you are mixing up the modern meaning of “secret” and the historical meaning of “mystery” as used by Paul. Neither the Church at present or a future Rapture will be a secret.

 

[phipps]

I think you are mixing up the modern meaning of “secret” and the historical meaning of “mystery” as used by Paul. Neither the Church at present or a future Rapture will be a secret.

I know the difference of the meaning of the words "secret" and "mystery" according to the Bible. I've not mixed them up. Please show me scripture from the Bible that talks about the rapture of the church before Jesus comes back the second time. Can I see actual scripture please.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I know the difference of the meaning of the words "secret" and "mystery" according to the Bible. I've not mixed them up. Please show me scripture from the Bible that talks about the rapture of the church before Jesus comes back the second time. Can I see actual scripture please.

OK, the notion that the Rapture and the Second Coming are two distinct events comes in part from a comparison of verses alluding to the return of the Lord. These broadly fall into “Rapture-like verses” and “Second Coming-like verses” leading many to identify them as separate events:-

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? | GotQuestions.org

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? Are the Rapture and the Second Coming different events?

www.gotquestions.org

On the specific verse question, you may have come across the popular Islamic question “show me the verse where Jesus says “I am God, worship me”...

 

[Karlysymon]

To begin to understand where the Rapture fits in, gaining a grasp of the “mysteries” revealed to Paul is essential background.

Do we find the Church in the OT? Moses took a gentile bride, so did Joseph. The story of Ruth and Boaz... the list goes on, but nowhere does it say “God will in the latter time bring forth His Church” or similar ;-)

In the same way, if the Rapture were true, I might expect to find verses that contain a pattern, but with a veiled meaning. I think this is my favourite, but if I get chance I will dig up a few more for you later...

Isaiah 26

Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment

20Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Regarding Isaiah 26, there is a difference between Enoch's situation and that of Noah, Lot or the Israelites in Goshen. The former was physically removed from the earth while the latter were all shielded. And that is what i believe Isaiah 26 is about. God's children will remain on the earth but shielded from the ensuing chaos. If it really was about translation as Enoch was, the verses would have been very explicit about it. As it were, Christ employed the figures of Noah and Lot in His warnings of the time of the end.
(Matt 24: 36-40 and Luke 17:26-34)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Regarding Isaiah 26, there is a difference between Enoch's situation and that of Noah, Lot or the Israelites in Goshen. The former was physically removed from the earth while the latter were all shielded. And that is what i believe Isaiah 26 is about. God's children will remain on the earth but shielded from the ensuing chaos. If it really was about translation as Enoch was, the verses would have been very explicit about it. As it were, Christ employed the figures of Noah and Lot in His warnings of the time of the end.
(Matt 24: 36-40 and Luke 17:26-34)

I guess the trick when things are not crystal clear is to be spiritually prepared for both eventualities? I love the “but if not” line of Daniels friends.