Red Heifer Birth Paves Way For Renewed Temple Service

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If I wrote a cheque for the meals eaten by the diners in a whole five star restaurant, then stood up and told everyone that is what I had done, still only those who came to me to receive that cheque and place their own meme on it would receive payment for their meals. If the others were then unable to pay their bill, despite my generosity, they would still end up washing dishes ;-)
I agree with your analogy, it's your presuppostion of what the bill is that I do not agree with. What is the bill for our sin accoridng to the Bible. The bible says the bill, (i.e. the wages) of sin is death. It doesn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment.
So the sinner who does not recieve the cheque, experiences death not eternal torment. The unbeleiver perishes (ceases to exist) while the believer experiences life. It's a here and now thing not just a future state. So though the unbeleiver perishes we also know that even the unbeliever will be resurrected unto judgement. But that judgement / condemnation is for a purpose, otherwise God would be unjust in resurrecting the unbeliever as they have already paid the wages for sin by perishing or dying. Is God so vengeful that even after dying he feels the need to use the power of the cross to resurrect the unbeliever so he can torture them forever? I don't accept that.
 





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I agree with your analogy, it's your presuppostion of what the bill is that I do not agree with. What is the bill for our sin accoridng to the Bible. The bible says the bill, (i.e. the wages) of sin is death. It doesn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment.
So the sinner who does not recieve the cheque, experiences death not eternal torment. The unbeleiver perishes (ceases to exist) while the believer experiences life. It's a here and now thing not just a future state. So though the unbeleiver perishes we also know that even the unbeliever will be resurrected unto judgement. But that judgement / condemnation is for a purpose, otherwise God would be unjust in resurrecting the unbeliever as they have already paid the wages for sin by perishing or dying. Is God so vengeful that even after dying he feels the need to use the power of the cross to resurrect the unbeliever so he can torture them forever? I don't accept that.
I added to my post, just for completeness ^
 





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Yes, I do..he is talking about the saved. You’re reading your own bias into the verse.
If after they have escaped the defilement of the world, but the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...that’s a Christian right there.
Smh, I literally gave you the Context of the entire chapter and you still are hard headed about it? You think False Prophets and False Teachers are legitimately saved people huh? Lol ok Lisa, anything you say dear...

If they are entangled again in them..in what? Defilement , if they are entangled again in defilement and are overcome. Its not a one time sin and you’re done, its when you are overcome..and maybe that would be the one big time..idk. The point is don’t take God’s grace lightly.
Anyway..back to the verse and he really spells it out here...
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. Who knows the way of righteousness? Christians right? What’s Peter saying, its better if you didn’t know Jesus then turn away from him.
You have very little discernment Lisa, I not only gave the entire Chapter as Context of the verse you cherry picked I also offered you commentary that very clearly spells it out for you but does any of that matter? Nope you still stick your head in the sand, and act like what you say is really what it means even in LIGHT OF THE TEXT SURROUNDING IT.

You are willfully ignorant if you think that verse is talking about Born Again Christians, it is clearly all in reference to False Prophets and Teachers which of course are NOT Saved. If you REALLY think that False Prophets and Teachers are saved then your discernment is even worse than I figured...

If you don’t run to God as a Christian...what do you think that looks like to others?
If someone runs to God who is a Christian and things still keep going downhill, do you not think they can come to a place where they doubt and are hurt and mad at God Lisa?

And what does it look like to others? Usually if someone is in that place they are pretty freaking devastated with the situations going on in their lives and are not to concerned how it looks like to others.

And if we are going to be concerned about how it looks to others, then tell me what does it look like when the professed Christian is devastated, finds himself in a bad place, and then God turns everything around? How does that look to others?

Do you think that makes God look good?
Says little about God and more about the Human Condition. You never really answered my questions about Peter, you instead misquoted a verse. Did Peter really give a bad example of Christ, or did Jesus show up to offer more Grace and Love than anyone could imagine?

I am sure you will of course ignore all of this per your MO...

You ran straight back to sin and not to God and you call yourself a Christian?
Lol look at you showing exactly what I said about you, you are icey cold, no love no grace, again I am super glad that I wasnt surrounded by people like you and thus why I pray you never are near struggling people. Thank God Jesus is nothing like you dear...

And here is the thing, I ran to God, over and over, but it was an awful thing to experience your mother die in your hands after running to God for a year and half praying He would heal her. Was a pretty big blow to my Faith and if you can not understand this then so be it, like I said you are cold hearted, I hope you never come near any human that is struggling in their Faith or finds themselves in positions that I am willing to share with you and the rest of the forum...

Its ok tho, all it does is speak to your heart, and then to the Grace and Love of God, how amazing and wonderful He is, how longsuffering He is with us all.

What do you tell others who want to run to sin and not to God, good job?
Ugh you are about the worst arent you dear Lisa. What is really going on in your heart and life is what I wonder, what is your need to try and judge and condemn people who share their life experiences with you. Praise the Lord Jesus took all of my faults and yours to the Cross and I stand under no condemnation from Him.

Again whether you realize it or not, every response you have towards me about this is continually showing the entire forum your heart, and everything I have said about you being True.

Why would I say Good Job? Seriously are you really this dense?

Do you not even comprehend that part of my Testimony is confessing how TERRIBLE it was to be in Sin? Are you this ignorant and blind woman? Apparently you are, and it is a sad state once again that this is the type of thing you read into what I say...

Should I pat you on the back for making God look bad, for looking just like a hypocrite saying God is the answer, but no not for Daciple..he ran to sin.
Oh my dear hard hearted hateful Lisa, I didnt make God look bad, you think we can ever make God look bad? Seriously?

Did David make God look bad? Or does God look good regardless of our mistakes? David you know the one after Gods heart, the apple of Gods eye, who essentially murdered and committed adultery as the King, after all the wonderful things God did to get him into that position, that made God look bad?

Nope it didnt, it once again spoke to the frailness we all have as humans including you.

The fact is if we are Judged by our Faults then everyone makes God look bad, but the fact is God is made Good because He died knowing just how terrible we all are. Its called the Gospel, might want to study it a bit more intently...

Then you are totally wrong and scripture points it out but every time I try to tell you, you shake your head and say no dear one.
Meh, and so the wheel goes round and round...

Did you really expect a pat on the back or something?
From you, I expect nothing less than icey cold hearted judgmental and condemning responses. That is where your heart obviously lies, and thats ok, I really deep down dont care about your feelings about my Struggles. I mean you only echo what Satan tries to tell me all the time, which again tells much about you rather than myself and my faults and failures..

However from people who actually care genuinely about others which you definitely do not as your many interactions with dozens of people show, there is something called understanding, grace, empathy that usually displayed in their responses to my Testimony

NO, I’m not going to say good going, you blew it and you’re lucky you made it back to tell the tale. And, I would have been so ashamed to tell that story, but you wanted people to know what you did, because I think you liked going back to sin. You can say you didn’t, but you did to go that far in and then boast about it..like it was something cool. It wasn’t. You were wrong, and to act like you weren’t is wrong on me. We don’t encourage each other into sin, but to God.
Man you are super ridiculous, here is what is funny, I have had that testimony up for what 2 years now, I have testified about my struggles to many people and literally you are the only human being in existence that has ever said anything remotely close to that about what I went thru.

And yet again do you think this says more about me or you dear?

I definitely didnt enjoy being in Sin and it is YOU that reads something that ISNT there, all I stated was I fell away and went back into Sin. YOU are the one that reads all that other garbage into it.

I mean I loved the Sin I was in so much that I have been clean and sober for over 3 years, you know since the day God brought me miraculously out of my Sin and to the Church I am now in. Yep that sounds like a person who loved the Sin they were in, loved it so much that I drink and do drugs literally never.

And again I never boasted about being in my Sin, I boasted about GOD TAKING ME OUT OF IT, and per the norm at this point, it says infinitely more about you, that YOU choose to focus on my Sin instead God moving in the situation...

Why is it that never once have you ever yourself boasted about God in the situation I have revealed about my life to you? Never, not one time have you ever been like man that is amazing how great God is, man Gods grace is so great, Jesus is wonderful, praise the Lord that He offered you Mercy Daciple, He is such an amazing wonderful loving and kind God!!!

Not one utterance of praise to God, instead like Satan you want to focus on my faults and then try your hardest to condemn me for my past. That is the job that Satan does Lisa, why are you playing the role of Satan? Why do you choose to be like Satan when my Testimony is mentioned?

There is a song we sing in Church its called Under the Blood, and it talks about how Satan comes to us, how he constantly tries to make us feel bad about our failing and faults. Here are the lyrics and to you and Satan I say, Its Under The Blood...

While walking down a memory lane oh not so long ago
Oh Satan came right by my side making me feel low
he brought up thoughts of hurt and pain when I had gone astray
he wanted to discourage me as I walked along my way
he said you're undeserving cause I know where you've been
I have a record of your life when you were bound by sin
I know your darkest secrets that you would never tell
what makes you think you don't deserve a place with me in Hell?
I heard the old accuser and this was my reply
you're right for all the things I've done I sure deserve to die
my righteousness is filthy rags my goodness is unclean
there's only one thing I can say to what you've said to me

CHORUS
It's under the blood, oh praise His dear name!
I'm not what I used to be, my life's been changed.
Not shackled by sin and shame, it's already gone.
I'm happy reminding you, it's under the blood!


You and Satan can focus on my past and my failures when I was in Sin, I will boast of Christ and His Grace and Mercy in my Life, I will boast of God and the fact that everything you and Satan are trying to bring up, its all Under the Blood, thank you Jesus!!!

You fell right? You got back in..isn’t that encouraging others to do the same? When you run to sin in times of trouble..then where is the hope in Christ?
No Satan I am not encouraging anyone into Sin, I am confessing where I have been because of my own wrong choices and praising God that His Mercy and Grace extends past my own failures and faults. The only person who would see it the way you are presenting it is Satan and well you.

Go read the Thread dear, everyone else is encouraged to turn to Christ and Praise the Lord, but no not you, because as I have said multiple times now, you always want to discourage and try and find fault with everyone about everything. Again speaks to your heart dear, not mine...

If someone testified that they had a crisis of Faith and walked away from God (whatever form that took for them) and then they told me about some Miraculous Events that happened when they Repented, my focus would be on Gods Grace and Love and not their Failures. Real people with real hearts, thats how they act. You dont live in the real world...

Sure it didn’t, you wouldn’t have done it if you thought you couldn’t get back...
Well Lisa I am glad you know me and what I was going thru and thinking at the time better than I do myself. Smh, please keep showing literally everyone exactly how your heart is, I can only feel sadness when I read your responses...

Right..you would have said, boy I better not do what I want to do..and that is return to my vomit. You used your mom’s death as an excuse to go back to the sin that you were missing. That’s what you did. Let’s not sugar coat what you did for sympathy.
Wow Lisa, such kind hearted words, the love of Christ I feel from you is immense. You are a shining example of how a sister should treat a brother in Christ. We can only hope all of the brethren and sisters of Christ are as kind and loving as you are towards me right now. You really are entreating me towards you. I can tell you that if I ever had any problems in my life, you are exactly who I will be turning to. I know I can count on you to help me and build me up if I am ever feeling down.

I dont sugar coat anything, if I was sugar coating something, then I wouldnt have ever revealed what I did, clear as day. What you do Lisa, that is sugar coating. You act like you are better than me, actually you literally act like you are better than every single person on this site (which is a very definitive sign of someone suffering from massive insecurity in real life) as tho you are not just as guilty as me or anyone else for the Sins you are presently trapped in. It would be very easy for me to get up on a high horse and condemn you for all the Sins you clearly are trapped in, but I am not going to do that. Clearly there are major issues you are dealing with that cause you to act the way you do towards everyone, even professed brothers and sisters in Christ...

I have sympathy for your suffering,
You absolutely do not have sympathy for anything concerning me, and to be honest you personally can keep all of your fake sympathy....

How can you tell people about a great God when you didn’t run to Him in your problems?
You really are mentally deficient arent you? I am not going to explain it for the 50th time to you, believe whatever you want to believe, it obviously makes you feel better about yourself to try your hardest to degrade me, which once again tells the entire forum much more about you than about me.

Yes, He did work them out for His glory..but what more glory could He have had that His own came to Him in their time of suffering? How great the glory then?
Who knows Lisa, I went to Him the best I could at the time and felt rejected and turn into the World, like an idiot and I suffered for it. I thank you for your understanding and constantly trying to rub my nose in my past failures, just like Satan tries to do on a regular basis. You are great Christian friend, I am glad you are here for me dear...

We press on not shrink back
Unlike you I am honest in my walk, you shrink back, you just dont want to admit it, its okay tho, keep finding the specks in our eyes so you dont have to address the massive planks in your own eye.

O yes, you need to be holding on tightly to Jesus, everything around you is trying to get you away from Him. Why do you think we must abide in Him and He in us. He knows our hearts, sin is still waiting at the door waiting to pounce on us. And one of the fruits of the spirit is self control. We must fight sin, not give into it otherwise we would be giving license to sin and that’s not what the Bible teaches.
Ugh you cant understand anything ever, you are tedious person to talk to. You may think you hold to Jesus but in reality it is Jesus who holds to you, and one day maybe you will understand this, but your attitude shows clearly that you think much more of yourself than you really ought to be, but hey who cares the massive warnings multiple people tell you concerning these things. Just keep being your wonderful cheer edifying and building self there Lisa lol

Then you are blind and ignorant, which of course everyone on the forum knows...

Paul made himself all things to all people in hopes to win some. Red tries to speak to people in loving ways (without compromising anything to do with Christ) in hopes to win some. What I can assuredly tell you is that no one is or probably ever has been won over by how you act towards them, to come to Christ. Might want to think about that dear...

He doesn’t really take a stand either way
Again you are seriously willfully blind and purposefully ignorant. That is not at all what Red does, he stands 100% for the Gospel and for Christ. Just because he or we disagree with you doesnt mean he or we dont stand for Christ.

always trying to be friends with everyone.
Man what a terrible Christian for following literally what the Bible says to do lol Smh you are a unique little flower Lisa:

Pro 18:24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.

Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

@Red Sky at Morning man you really need to stop following the Bible here brother, I think you need to be more like Lisa, divisive, contentious, argumentative, sowing discord among the brethren and the like...

Idk, should I also say that doesn’t matter too? Because doesn’t it matter?
‭‭
There is not much if anything I see questionable about what he posts, I disagree with some of the things he posts, but nothing that is tantamount to rejecting the Gospel or disparaging the brethren with every breath, like some people I see on here...

Anyways it was nice resisting the Devil with you today Lisa, been fun...
 





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@Todd

P.s. to a hypothetical question which tests hearts rather than doctrines, would I like anyone to miss out on the gift of eternal life? I would not wish anyone, even my worst enemy were lost. If God could somehow create a loophole where staunch unbelievers I care for could be shown the consequences of their rejection at some microsecond between life and eternity, I would not feel cheated by God if more people “made it” than seems to be scriptural indicated.

As for me, I have no jurisdiction in this area and I feel that where it is an area that equates to similar speculation on things like “will our pets be taken in the Rapture”. God’s plan of salvation is His plan, not mine, so I submit accordingly as a sinner, saved by grace.
I would like to address this part, because I think you are so close. I'm glad to hear that you are not against God saving even the unbeliever. However the part I bolded sticks out to me. An unbeliever does not truly have life, only death.
John 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;

The bible says life is knowing God. if the unbeliever does not know God they do not have life. So there is no microsecond between life and eternity. The wages of sin is death. Death is not knowing God. Why would God raise someone who does not know him just to have them suffer eternal torment, when he clearly said the penatly for sin is death. They have already died, they have already not experineced the life of God. Why is that not enough?

Annihilationism is more just than eternal torment, but annihilation means death will never be destroyed and we all know that death is the last enemy of God to be destroyed (how can death be destroyed if people are still dead?). So eternal torment comes accross as a compromise so God can declare victory over death without saving everybody. It sounds absurd because it is. Sorry but in my book that doesn't bring glory to God.
 





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I would like to address this part, because I think you are so close. I'm glad to hear that you are not against God saving even the unbeliever. However the part I bolded sticks out to me. An unbeliever does not truly have life, only death.
John 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;

The bible says life is knowing God. if the unbeliever does not know God they do not have life. So there is no microsecond between life and eternity. The wages of sin is death. Death is not knowing God. Why would God raise someone who does not know him just to have them suffer eternal torment, when he clearly said the penatly for sin is death. They have already died, they have already not experineced the life of God. Why is that not enough?

Annihilationism is more just than eternal torment, but annihilation means death will never be destroyed and we all know that death is the last enemy of God to be destroyed (how can death be destroyed if people are still dead?). So eternal torment comes accross as a compromise so God can declare victory over death without saving everybody. It sounds absurd because it is. Sorry but in my book that doesn't bring glory to God.
I hope you can take this in the spirit that I share it Todd. I feel God’s love for the world, the price he paid for every precious person He has made, the suffering Jesus endured. I simply think that some will choose eternal separation anyway. I really don’t want that to be true any more than I would have my dog go through the Great Tribulation, but I can’t find anything that would make me take hold of UR. That having been said, my lack of faith in that doctrine makes me feel great urgency that as far as it lies with me, lost people will get to hear the gospel and make their choice before their life or chance is taken from them.


P.s. this doesn’t mean I’m going to be horrible to you over it, I just can’t reconcile it with my own understanding.
 





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I simply think that some will choose eternal separation anyway. I really don’t want that to be true any more than I would have my dog go through the Great Tribulation, but I can’t find anything that would make me take hold of UR.
Is it that you can't find anything to take hold of UR, or that you can't let go of your current understanding of verses that appear to make Eternal Torment inevitable? The problem is when we are indoctrinated with ET, we focus on the verses that "appear" to support ET rather than focus on verses that appear to support UR. We receive nothing from God without faith and faith comes by hearing the word of God. So if we always focus on the verses we think support ET and never focus and meditate on the verses that could possibly support UR we will never build our faith to believe that it could be true. Instead we think it is too good to be true. But is there such a thing as too good compared to God? God can do more than you can ask or imagine (Ephesians 3:20).

I have found there are just as many scirptures in the Bible that appear to support UR as there are scriptures that appear to support ET. I would suggest you look into other websites that teach UR and read the scriptures they list in support of UR. If you go with an open mind and meditate on the scriptures that support UR, if it is true God will give you faith to believe it. But if you don't seek it because you are "dug in" with what you already think the Bible says you will miss it.

I will pray that God opens both of our eyes to see it as he does, no matter what way that is.
 





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Is it that you can't find anything to take hold of UR, or that you can't let go of your current understanding of verses that appear to make Eternal Torment inevitable? The problem is when we are indoctrinated with ET, we focus on the verses that "appear" to support ET rather than focus on verses that appear to support UR. We receive nothing from God without faith and faith comes by hearing the word of God. So if we always focus on the verses we think support ET and never focus and meditate on the verses that could possibly support UR we will never build our faith to believe that it could be true. Instead we think it is too good to be true. But is there such a thing as too good compared to God? God can do more than you can ask or imagine (Ephesians 3:20).

I have found there are just as many scirptures in the Bible that appear to support UR as there are scriptures that appear to support ET. I would suggest you look into other websites that teach UR and read the scriptures they list in support of UR. If you go with an open mind and meditate on the scriptures that support UR, if it is true God will give you faith to believe it. But if you don't seek it because you are "dug in" with what you already think the Bible says you will miss it.

I will pray that God opens both of our eyes to see it as he does, no matter what way that is.
For me I tend to prefer to preach the good news of the Gospel, ask for discernment about things that I find I am in doubt over and leave the final judgement or others to the judge.
 





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Christianity did replace Judaism. If a Jew accepts Christ, he becomes a Christian. The New Covenant replaces the Old. It is black and white. You accept Christ or you don't. That is what Christianity teaches. You are using the same verse that I would use to support that Christianity is black and white. Fulfillment of the law is the establishment of the New Covenant which replaces the Old.



Nope, there was never a second exile. What happened is that there was conversion to Judaism that took place between the years of 200 BC and 100 AD. It is well known that the Hasmoneans forced conversion. It is well known that Herod was descended from converts. It is likely that the Septuagint was created for Greek converts. It is these people who make up the migratory patterns that we attribute to the history of the Jews. This is followed by the conversion of the Khazars. However, as far as Jews living in what you are calling Israel, there was never a forced expulsion after the destruction of the second temple from this location.

The suggestion of the destruction of the second temple does not suggest that there was ever any judgment made to exile them again either. It really just reiterates that Christianity does replace Judaism according to the New Testament because the New Covenant replaces the Old. This is a fundamental theological difference between religions.

So quite frankly, there is no reason to associate the verses from Zechariah with anything that is happening without filling in significant portions with the imagination. It is possible that there are significant portions of this book that are missing as well, which wouldn't affect the validity of scripture. There are significant transitions missing in this book.

Chapters 5 and 6 talk about things that resemble the first several chapters of Revelation. Then, in chapter 7, we are talking about King Darius and the time of exile. It says,

"‘I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations, where they were strangers. The land they left behind them was so desolate that no one traveled through it. This is how they made the pleasant land desolate."

The only time this could have legitimately happened as far as we are aware is during the time of the actual exile. Since the return, the land has had people traipsing through it on a regular basis. So this has either happened already and has nothing to do with this "regathering" you are suggesting is taking place right now, or it hasn't happened at all.

In either case, proving one way or the other requires filling in a lot of blanks with our imagination because this is an identifying feature. No one traveled through the land. That has not been applicable in the past 2000 years and we can't try to whitewash this by pairing it with other verses. No matter what you pair it with, it will not fit the way you are hoping it will. It will not ever support that what we are seeing now is a literal manifestation of the fulfillment of a prophecy that combines a couple of chapters from Zechariah with Romans 11.

So I think you are confusing two different concepts by suggesting that chapter 8 represents what is happening now. So you see how Zechariah has jumped around without any real transitions. We go ahead to the time of the fulfillment of revelation, then back to king darius, then forward to now, then we skip over to judgment taking place at an unspecified time, back to the birth of Christ, back to the second coming.

So between chapters 5 through 9, the timeline has appeared to change around 6 times without any transitions made from one timeline to the other. This could be because the text is fragmentary and there are pieces missing without challenging the validity of what is available. This could be because it is supposed to be this way. In either case, there are large blanks that have to be filled in with the imagination and there is no reason to make any connection between these verses and the verses from Romans 11.

And Romans 11 does not suggest any sort of exile or migration that is caused by the hardening. All of these conclusions are built with the imagination. Therefore, in reality, there are several timeframes that Zechariah 8 fits rather well in. It actually fits very well with the time of Christ because you remember that all of the disciples were "jews" right? And ever since the birth of Christianity, the land has been inhabited and people have come from many places expecting something from it. We remember the history of the crusades right?

It still requires filling in a lot of blanks because the text does not follow a linear timeline that would allow us to ever come to an agreement on when this will or did take place, but again. There is nothing within Romans 11 that makes a direct connection with this book. This is not a terrible thing. It is not the end of the world if there is not a way to create a connection between these two passages. Legitimately we can't directly make them unless they are forced, so why are so many people comfortable with making presumptions.

"For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry." 1 Samuel 15:23

"Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 10:12.
Is it a new covenant though? We are grafted into an existing olive tree, we are not set apart from that tree.

After the 2nd temple was destroyed, then what was left for the Jew? I do believe they were scattered and wandered all over the world, settling in different places. And I do believe that after the 2nd world war they were brought back again to their own land, less land then what God had promised them, but their own land and that’s because God isn’t finished with them yet. They also have prophecy to fulfill while they are in the land, and events seem to be going that way..the world hates them and they really want to rebuild the temple.

As for Romans 11 and Zechariah, I didn’t quote them to go together, but to illustrate what I saw differently from 2 things that Karly said to me.


I think Ezekiel is talking about God bringing the unbelieving Jews back into their land for His purposes though.

Ezekiel 36:22-28
Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
 





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This is news, but doesn't really belong in the news section because of it's spiritual significance. This is, by my recollection, about the fifth or sixth heifer that's come along in the last twenty years. All the others were disqualified for one reason or another, so let's cross our fingers on this one.



Last Tuesday, the Temple Institute’s Red Heifer program was blessed with results; an entirely red female calf was born, paving the way for re-establishing the Temple service and marking the final stage of redemption.​


Almost three years ago the Temple Institute inaugurated its Raise a Red Heifer in Israel program. Due to laws restricting the importation of live cattle into Israel, the Temple Institute imported frozen embryos of red angus, implanting them in Israeli domestic cows. The pregnant cows were raised on cattle ranches in different locations throughout the country. The cows are giving birth this summer with several calves already having been born.​


One week after it’s birth, the newborn red heifer was certified by a board of rabbis as fulfilling all the Biblical requirements. The rabbis emphasized that the heifer could, at any time, acquire a blemish rendering it unsuitable. They will be inspecting the calf periodically to verify its condition.​


The red heifer was the main component in the Biblically mandated process of ritual purification for impurity that results from proximity or contact with a dead body. Because the elements needed for this ceremony have been lacking since the destruction of the Second Temple, all Jews today are considered ritually impure, thereby preventing the return of the Temple service.​


The red heifer is described in the Book of Numbers.​


“This is the ritual law that Hashem has commanded: Instruct B’nei Yisrael to bring you a red cow without blemish, in which there is no defect and on which no yoke has been laid. Numbers 19:2​


Several heifers have been found in recent years that seemed to qualify but ultimately were unsuited for the ritual. Earlier this month, two calves born in Israel to the Institute’s red heifer program were deemed to be unsuitable for the performance of the mitzvah. One calf was a bull while the second, a heifer, had a small patch of white hair which disqualified her.​


The heifer, born from a natural birth, must be entirely red, with no more than two non-red hairs on its body. It must also never have been used for any labor or have been impregnated. The existence of such a heifer is considered a biological anomaly and very rare. Fortunately, the ritual requires an infinitesimally small quantity of ashes. From the time of Moses, who personally prepared the first heifer, until the destruction of the Temple, only nine red heifers were prepared. Nonetheless, this was sufficient to maintain the ritual purity of the entire nation for almost 2,000 years.​


According to Jewish tradition, there will only be ten red heifers in human history with the tenth heifer ushering in the Messianic era. Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (Maimonides), the most renowned medieval Jewish scholar known by the acronym Rambam, wrote in his explanation of the mitzvah that “the tenth red heifer will be accomplished by the king, the Messiah; may he be revealed speedily, Amen, May it be God’s will.”​


Rabbi Chaim Richman, the International Director of the Temple Institute, commented on this on the institute’s website.​


“If there has been no red heifer for the past 2,000 years, perhaps it is because the time was not right; Israel was far from being ready. But now… what could it mean for the times we live in, to have the means for purification so close at hand? With the words of Maimonides in mind, we cannot help but wonder and pray: If there are now red heifers… is ours the era that will need them?”​


The laws pertaining to the mitzvah are myriad and considered by the sages to be the archetypal chok, an inexplicable Torah commandment accepted solely on faith. Before entering the land of Israel after the Exodus, the heifer was burned outside of the camp. In the days of the Temple, the heifer was taken to the Mount of Olives across a causeway built specifically for this purpose to ensure that there was no inadvertent contact with areas along the way that may have been contaminated by dead bodies.​


Cedarwood, hyssop, and wool or yarn dyed scarlet are added to the fire, and the remaining ashes are placed in a vessel containing spring water to purify a person who has become ritually contaminated by contact with a corpse. Water from the vessel is sprinkled on the subject, using a bunch of hyssop, on the third and seventh day of the purification process. The priest who performs the ritual then becomes ritually unclean, and must then wash himself and his clothes in running waters. He is deemed impure until evening.​


No less stringent than the laws pertaining to the heifer are the laws pertaining to the site where the heifer is burned. Almost 30 years ago, Rabbi Yonatan Adler, who is also an archaeologist, performed an in-depth study into the textual references to the site where the red heifer was burned, publishing his results in in the Torah journal Techumin. His calculations, based on the Holy of Holies being located where the Dome of the Rock stands today, led him to a spot where Dominus Flevit, a Catholic Church built in 1955, now stands. Archaeological surveys discovered unique characteristics of the site that corresponded to descriptions in the Talmud.​



What a cutie!

Here's a piece from GotQuestions with a little more about this might mean..

What is the significance of a red heifer in the Bible?




Question: "What is the significance of a red heifer in the Bible? Is a red heifer a sign of the end times?"


Answer: According to the Bible, the red heifer—a reddish-brown cow, probably no more than two years old which had never had a yoke on it—was to be sacrificed as part of the purification rites of the Mosaic Law. The slaughtering of a red heifer was a ceremonial ritual in the Old Testament sacrificial system, as described in Numbers 19:1-10. The purpose of the red heifer sacrifice was to provide for the water of cleansing (Numbers 19:9), another term for purification from sin. After the red heifer was sacrificed, her blood was sprinkled at the door of the tabernacle.​


The imagery of the blood of the heifer without blemish being sacrificed and its blood cleansing from sin is a foreshadowing of the blood of Christ shed on the cross for believers’ sin. He was “without blemish” just as the red heifer was to be. As the heifer was sacrificed “outside the camp” (Numbers 19:3), in the same way Jesus was crucified outside of Jerusalem: “And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood” (Hebrews 13:11-12).​


The Bible does teach that one day there will be again be a temple of God in Jerusalem (Ezekiel chapters 41-45). Jesus prophesied that the antichrist would desecrate the temple (Matthew 24:15), and for that to occur, there obviously would have to be a temple in Jerusalem once again. Many anticipate the birth of a red heifer because in order for a new temple to function according to the Old Testament law, a red heifer would have to be sacrificed for the water of cleansing used in the temple. So, when a red heifer is born (which is quite unusual) it might be a sign that the temple will soon be rebuilt.​

For a guy who told me that you view Israel's right to exist as a secular one and not according to your religious beliefs or God, you sure a digging deep here on this one.
:rolleyes:
PS: no where in the gospels does it talk about a red heifer.. and WE are the temple. That's what it teaches. What in the hell gospels do Christian Zionists read with this nonsense?
 





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For a guy who told me that you view Israel's right to exist as a secular one and not according to your religious beliefs or God, you sure a digging deep here on this one.
:rolleyes:
PS: no where in the gospels does it talk about a red heifer.. and WE are the temple. That's what it teaches. What in the hell gospels do Christian Zionists read with this nonsense?
Just an observation...

I don’t presume to know everything but it does seem to me that God is sovereign even when it comes to world events that are not his desired outcome but are within his permissive will.

Does God want the Jews to be concentrating on breeding genetically pure red cows so that a perfect specimen should be available to purify a future Temple. My understanding is that they are so stiff necked in their interpretation of tradition that they would not recognise the parallel to Jesus if they could possibly help it, as these interviews with Jews over Isaiah 53 illustrate:-


Even this little forum is a good illustration of that stiff necked attribute. They do say that middle age is where a broad mind and a narrow waist change places! Try as people might to patiently explain views that do not mesh with another persons, the heels become thoroughly dug in and short of some direct visitation by the Lord or some major paradigm shift, they simply WILL NOT move.

As with this forum, so with the Jewish people - there is an adage that says “if you have two Jews, you have three opinions” which seems to me to indicate that they are culturally opinionated and stubborn.

This goes to the bigger question what the Bible says God will allow to happen to them to cause them to re-evaluate that stubbornness. The end of Matthew 23 gives some hints...

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The times and circumstances that might bring them to the “till ye shall say” point are the subject of much research and speculation but are widely believed to be the Great Tribulation or the times of “Jacob’s Trouble”. I don’t think God would want anyone to go through that, but many will (at some point) choose to be stiff necked and continue in unbelief regardless.
 





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Just an observation...

I don’t presume to know everything but it does seem to me that God is sovereign even when it comes to world events that are not his desired outcome but are within his permissive will.

Does God want the Jews to be concentrating on breeding genetically pure red cows so that a perfect specimen should be available to purify a future Temple. My understanding is that they are so stiff necked in their interpretation of tradition that they would not recognise the parallel to Jesus if they could possibly help it, as these interviews with Jews over Isaiah 53 illustrate:-


Even this little forum is a good illustration of that stiff necked attribute. They do say that middle age is where a broad mind and a narrow waist change places! Try as people might to patiently explain views that do not mesh with another persons, the heels become thoroughly dug in and short of some direct visitation by the Lord or some major paradigm shift, they simply WILL NOT move.

As with this forum, so with the Jewish people - there is an adage that says “if you have two Jews, you have three opinions” which seems to me to indicate that they are culturally opinionated and stubborn.

This goes to the bigger question what the Bible says God will allow to happen to them to cause them to re-evaluate that stubbornness. The end of Matthew 23 gives some hints...

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The times and circumstances that might bring them to the “till ye shall say” point are the subject of much research and speculation but are widely believed to be the Great Tribulation or the times of “Jacob’s Trouble”. I don’t think God would want anyone to go through that, but many will (at some point) choose to be stiff necked and continue in unbelief regardless.
I concur 100%
 





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P.s. when a Rabbi who became a Christian explains the real gospel to a Greek Orthodox man, you know we live in interesting times!

As long as you are posting this as true Israel and not Zionist israel. Ok
The Israel in the Bible is 12 tribes, 2 of which of Jewish (Judah) 10 of which are not (Israel) no.. not kidding. Everyone got put in exile from His presence (not land) when they continually avoided Him.
God loves all of his ppl.. that is why the next time his kingdom comes it will fill the whole earth (Isaiah) not just Palestine. But the evil doers are not allowed.
 





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Oliver Cromwell was famously quoted as asking for his portrait to be painted “warts and all”...

40CD1C98-64F9-4088-9F1B-BC7F795254ED.jpeg

In many ways, the present state of Israel reminds me of that portrait of Cromwell.

Despite the Rothschild, Synagogue of Satan “warts” in the national countenance, I genuinely believe that God has something to show the nations through the re-establishment world of the nation of Israel.

On the other hand, I really don’t think it will be what the political Zionists expect as many of them are secular and believe they have achieved nationhood through their own ingenuity and national character, or Orthodox Jews who have a Jewish, Jesus-rejecting eschatology that is setting them up for deception.

Ezekiel 38 paints a picture where, with all the national pride in their military might, in the face of impossible odds it will be God Himself who will intervene to protect the nation from destruction.

Just as we cannot save ourselves, so this unlikely nation will not be able to save itself either. I think the books of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Daniel, the “Minor prophets” and the NT all confirm this position.

I suspect the events surrounding Israel in the months and years to come will serve to underline the prophetic statements of the Bible, and serve as an object lesson to the surrounding nations (who are also loved by God).

C.S. Lewis wrote in the following in “The Problem of Pain” :-

“We can ignore even pleasure. But pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.”
~ C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

I don’t like pain, but sometimes I have learned things during painful times. I believe that the Lord shows both judgement and mercy during the Tribulation. Why else would the Gospel of the Kingdom go out to the whole world during this time? Why bother with the two witnesses? With all my heart, I wish I could even help my worst enemy to be reconciled to God and believe the Gospel during this present age of Grace, but the free will of others is not within my power to change.

Here is an overview of Israel from the very beginning to the present day, warts, mistakes, rebellion, idolatry, miracles and all.

 





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Hi @Lisa

More than the intra-faith, Christian doctrinal controversies, all of this talk about a perfect red heifer is making me hungry. I do realize that it is probably an exceedingly rare treat, reserved more for the sacerdotal caste of priestly Levites than the land-owning gentry of the remaining Israelite tribes. With that said, I wonder if, in your past issues of Bon Apetit, Christianity Today and Better Homes and Gardens, you have ever read an article which favorably compares an open-flame, mesquite grilled perfect red heifer steak to, say, a grass-fed Angus by an Amish farmer in Ohio? Also, which is thought to best complement a perfect red heifer steak: Dom Perignon or a bottle of vintage Lafite Rothschild?
As long as you are posting this as true Israel and not Zionist israel. Ok
On this board, as on Pat Robertson's 700 Club, great care is often taken to identify "true" Israel, namely the ideological spin-offs of Kach and Kahani-Chai and Gush Emunim (not to be confused with Gush Shalom) :cool:. Welcome back to the discussions, by the way.
 





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Hi @Lisa

More than the intra-faith, Christian doctrinal controversies, all of this talk about a perfect red heifer is making me hungry. I do realize that it is probably an exceedingly rare treat, reserved more for the sacerdotal caste of priestly Levites than the land-owning gentry of the remaining Israelite tribes. With that said, I wonder if, in your past issues of Bon Apetit, Christianity Today and Better Homes and Gardens, you have ever read an article which favorably compares an open-flame, mesquite grilled perfect red heifer steak to, say, a grass-fed Angus by an Amish farmer in Ohio? Also, which is thought to best complement a perfect red heifer steak: Dom Perignon or a bottle of vintage Lafite Rothschild?

On this board, as on Pat Robertson's 700 Club, great care is often taken to identify "true" Israel, namely the ideological spin-offs of Kach and Kahani-Chai and Gush Emunim (not to be confused with Gush Shalom) :cool:. Welcome back to the discussions, by the way.
Lol. Thanks Serveto :cool:
 





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...Despite the Rothschild, Synagogue of Satan “warts” in the national countenance, I genuinely believe that God has something to show the nations through the re-establishment world of the nation of Israel...
I can't fathom a Christian can truly believes this. Warts? Try full out melanoma. Illicit political powers and corrupt sinners pushed their "nation" into existence and they've caused misery/strife ever since.

I find the thought of murdering animals in a long dead practice of blood sacrifice revolting. It's so far from the universal awareness of what/who God is... there aren't even words. Enacting ritual animal sacrifice, enforcing Noahide laws for the gentiles in a one world religion while their military kindles wars in Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Sudan, etc. etc. It's perverse.

No one is advocating they be destroyed but rogue nations, deviants and warmongers need to be reigned in. We can't sit by passively for our own eschatological jollies.
 





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I can't fathom a Christian can truly believes this. Warts? Try full out melanoma. Illicit political powers and corrupt sinners pushed their "nation" into existence and they've caused misery/strife ever since.

I find the thought of murdering animals in a long dead practice of blood sacrifice revolting. It's so far from the universal awareness of what/who God is... there aren't even words. Enacting ritual animal sacrifice, enforcing Noahide laws for the gentiles in a one world religion while their military kindles wars in Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Sudan, etc. etc. It's perverse.

No one is advocating they be destroyed but rogue nations, deviants and warmongers need to be reigned in. We can't sit by passively for our own eschatological jollies.
Lest you think this is my own private eschatological fancy, it does seem to have entered into the opinion of at least a few others. I posted this on another thread but is equally relevant here:-

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/christian-zionism-discussed.2062/page-26#post-227370
 





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I find the thought of murdering animals in a long dead practice of blood sacrifice revolting. It's so far from the universal awareness of what/who God is... there aren't even words. Enacting ritual animal sacrifice, enforcing Noahide laws for the gentiles in a one world religion while their military kindles wars in Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Sudan, etc. etc. It's perverse.
In the OT sacrifices were what people did to atone for sin to God and that’s why the Jews think that doing that again will help them with God again. We don’t sacrifice anymore because God sent His Son Jesus to be the once for all sacrifice for sins...we don’t need any other sacrifices anymore. But the Jews don’t know that because they rejected Jesus..so it does make sense from that pov that they would need to start sacrifices again...not saying that its right. And I would argue that by starting sacrifices again, they are only thinking of their people and not other peoples..so I can’t see them starting any law against people they let live in their country or anywhere else for that matter.

Its the other countries trying to kindle war with them..why would they start any wars with those countries? They are outnumbered aren’t they?
 





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Question and answer with a Rabbi on animal sacrifice:

Question: Whose dimension is that?

Answer: Well, there are higher planes of reality than our own. Spiritual realms. And beyond. There’s a whole chain of worlds working down from the plane of the infinite light until arriving at us and our little physical cosmos down here.

Q: Kabbalah stuff.

A: It’s in the Talmud, too—lots of details in tractate Chagigah about the seven heavens, etc.

Q: So, with sacrifices . . .

A: Rabbi Isaac Luria, the Arizal, explains that the sacrifices were a way of elevating the matter and vitality of this world up to a higher plane.

Q: You know, I read a story about some tzaddik who would meditate and carry his consciousness up to higher places.

A: Actually, anytime someone meditates and prays with focus, he or she is doing that, to some small degree.

Q: So we’re back to square one: Who needs the barbecue?

A: Because that elevates only the human soul. The human soul has many layers. The G‑dly. The rational. The animal within. The sacrifices in the Temple elevated those, plus a whole real animal. It touched not just the spirit, but the body as well.

Q: So the animal became holy?

A: Thereby having a general effect on all the animals in the world—plus the flour and wine that was used with it, which pulled along all the vegetable world; plus the salt and water, which pulled the inanimate realm along with it . . .

Q: Let me get this straight: you’re saying that what prayer accomplishes on a spiritual level, the sacrifices accomplished with the physical world? You’re saying that the Temple was a sort of transformer, to beam up physical stuff into the spiritual realms?

A: You’re getting it. That’s why the space of the Temple was so important. You know that there is a tradition that the place where the altar of the Temple stood, that was the place from which Adam was formed. Cain and Abel made their sacrifices there. Noah made his sacrifices there after the flood. The binding of Isaac took place there . . .

Q: So, why did they all have to use that spot? What’s so special about it?

A: It’s the spot where Jacob had his dream about the ladder and the angels going up and down. He said, “This is the gateway to heaven!”

Q: Hmmm. You mean like what we call in ’Net jargon a portal.

A: Right. Or a transformer. The interface between the physical and the spiritual. That’s what the rabbis mean when they say that when G‑d went about creating this world, the place he started from was the place of the Temple Mount. So, you’ll say, there was no space when G‑d started creating the world. But what they mean is that this is the first link from the higher worlds to this world. Thats where “above” stops and “below” begins. Heaven to Earth. And so, that’s where the transmission line between the two is situated. The portal.

Q: What happens when all this meat and wine gets up there?

A: Obviously, it’s no longer a chewy steak when it’s in a spiritual domain. But we are physical beings, so we can’t really imagine what spiritual roast beef looks like. But there are conscious beings that have no physical bodies, and they are on the receiving end of all this.

Q: You mean angels?

A: That’s what they’re called in English.

Q: I find it hard to relate to the angel thing. I know there are plenty of references to them in the Bible and rabbinical literature . . .

A: Ramban (Nachmanides) says that our souls are more closely related to the angels than to the animals. After all, human beings live principally in a world of ideas and abstractions, more so than in the visceral, tangible world.

Q: Depends who you’re speaking about, rabbi.

A: At any rate, there is no reason not to believe that there is consciousness that is not associated with a physical body. And if we would ask one of those conscious beings whether the Temple sacrifices make sense to him/her/it, it/she/he would likely exclaim that it is one of the few things human beings do that make any sense at all! And I bet they’re real peeved that it’s been stopped all these years.

Q: What do they get out of it?

A: According to the Kabbalah, returning energy.

Q: You mean, like energy bouncing back? What do they need that for? Don’t they get enough when it’s on its way down?

A: Because the energy they get is only direct energy, filtered down through many steps. We get the final, most condensed creative energy to sustain our existence in this world. But, since we are the final stop, we also have the essence of that energy. That’s something they can get only when we elevate matters of our world up to theirs.

Q: You’re telling me those angels have a real interest in our sacrifices?

A: They have a real interest in anything good we do. Any mitzvah we do elevates some aspect of the material world—perhaps not to such an extent as the sacrifices. But the sacrifices provide a paradigm to understand what all mitzvahs are really about.

Q: So are these bodiless conscious beings involved in that as well?

A: Without them, not a single mitzvah would ever get done. The Talmud says that whenever a person does a mitzvah, it is only after the Holy One sends His angels to set everything up for him to do it. And they complete the job, as well. Often, our entire input is no more than making the conscious decision that yes, I want to do this mitzvah.

Q: So really, all of our mitzvahs happen within this larger, multidimensional context.

A: Which is why so many of them are so hard to understand. Like trying to make sense of a single instrument playing its part out of a whole symphony. That’s what each of our mitzvahs is like. Because we see only the material plane.