Red Heifer Birth Paves Way For Renewed Temple Service

Lisa

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I pray you never have a crisis of Faith, ever, because if you do you will think you are lost and well then you will also falsely believe that God cant bring you back to Himself.

I just wonder how you feel about Peter? Peter who said to Jesus I will stand by you no matter what. Peter who even went and tried to attack the people who were bringing Jesus to the Cross. Where was Peter found in the next few chapters?

Where was Peter when Jesus was crucified?

Do you think Peter was slower to the tomb because he disavowed Jesus 3 times even after saying to him he would die to protect him?

You must think Peter had no possible value to the Lord, that he was a wretch because he not only turned away from Jesus in his moment of need but he 100% disacknowledged even knowing Him at all.

Praise the Lord that Jesus is nothing like you in this aspect, even after turning completely away from Christ, to the point of saying he doesnt even know who He is, Jesus still came to restore their relationship back again.

Who was the first person to preach the Gospel after Christ ascended? Wasnt it Peter, the one who rejected Jesus outright, three different times? Why wasnt it John? The most beloved of Christ? The one who had his head on Christ chest, so close he could literally hear the heartbeat of God. Why wasnt he chosen?

Of all the Apostles it was Peter who was chosen to give the first sermon, to preach the Gospel first. I think it is wise to never judge a person who is going thru a crisis of Faith, you never know how God is going to move on and in them for His Glory.

Let me ask Lisa, what ability do you have to relate to those who are in the position where they are struggling in their Faith, or may have had something horrendous happen in their lives and they are not able to cope so they fall into Sin? What real help can you have to those people if you tell them what you tell everyone on this site. That since they are struggling and not doing the "works" that they are now Lost and going to Hell and they cant get their Salvation back?

Your doctrine would only cause the hurt and wounded person to fall farther away, and may even cause them to completely shipwreck their faith, refusing to turn because they wrongly believe God doesnt care anymore and is sending them straight to Hell for their doubts and heartaches.

Praise the Lord that your doctrine is completely false and incorrect and I can tell you, with zero doubts that I am not the only one who has had a Crisis of Faith, but then seen God do straight up miracles to restore and revive the relationship between the struggling in Faith person and their Lord and Creator.

Your message offers literally no hope to people, again Thank God that your message is incorrect and even the person that feels completely rejected by God, that is struggling with things you or I can not comprehend, and being brokenhearted has turned into the World and Sin, they still have hope in Christ. Christ can and will restore them, I am a living testament of it, and I know others that are as well.

If you who are reading this are in that position today, I am here to tell you that if you seek Gods face, He will be found, you can have everything you Lost restored and even greater than you can imagine given afterwards. God isnt mad at you, God hasnt turned away from you, He is just waiting for you to turn your heart back to Him. God Loves you and is wanting to pour His Goodness and Blessing upon you.

Dont listen to others who try and tell you that you are too far gone, your not, Jesus literally gave up everything all for you, all because He loves you. Everything is by Grace and Faith, even if you have done terrible things you are ashamed of, that you feel God wouldnt ever condone, Jesus literally died to free you from that and to give you hope and bring you back into Relationship with the Father.

Turn back to God, let Him show you just how much He loves you, I promise that He does and He will, all you have to do is Repent in your heart towards Him and He will be found. God loves you and so do I, if there is anything I can do to help or pray please let me know...
Peter knows..
2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Let me ask Lisa, what ability do you have to relate to those who are in the position where they are struggling in their Faith, or may have had something horrendous happen in their lives and they are not able to cope so they fall into Sin? What real help can you have to those people if you tell them what you tell everyone on this site. That since they are struggling and not doing the "works" that they are now Lost and going to Hell and they cant get their Salvation back?
The answer is to not fall into sin to cope but to trust in God. And trust me I can relate to having many horrendous things happen to me but I also have the answer in that God is here to help us in our struggles and that is what I would tell someone struggling, because I have struggled and have had God help me.
And that is what the answer should be, not fall into sin to cope but if you do, all’s not lost. That just encourages falling.
Hebrews‬ ‭10:38-39‬ ‭
BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.​
‭‭
I think that we should live by faith and live by the truth presented in scripture, not in the way we want the scriptures to read but in the way they do read. When you went so fully back to your sin, was it because you knew you could never lose your salvation? Would it have been different if you had thought you could? Would you try harder to keep to the faith then? And why do you keep saying it like I have this gospel..it is part of the gospel..even Peter is aware of it. Scripture says that you can go too far and if you do then you can be right back in the darkness.

Philippians‬ ‭3:12, 14‬ ‭
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
We must always press on for the upward call and not shrink back.
‭‭
 





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I don’t think I can have a truce with you, Red.
Smh, is there anyone at all on this forum you do have a "truce" with? I tried to bring this to your attention in a different thread and I will one last time try and bring it to your attention but I see absolutely no one out of all the hundreds of people that come on to this forum that you are truly at peace with.

It doesnt matter if they are Christians, or Athiests, or Buddhists or Muslims, you seem to find something wrong with absolutely everyone and then create massive division between you and them till you can hope to declare that you can not even have a "truce" with them.

Like real talk, if you have chosen to be unwilling or unable to have a truce with Red then I dont think it is possible for you to have one with anyone, he is one of the most accommodating and kind people on this site, and he is a brother in Christ.

Apparently it wont matter to you, but this really really speaks to who you are fundamentally, the fact that you can not find peace with pretty much anyone on this site, not even your fellow Christians. I would suggest doing some serious reflecting as to why this is. I dont really expect you to, I am sure you will act as tho you are fine and dandy and everyone else is the problem.

Anyways all we can do is bring it to your attention and pray for you, God Bless sis...
 





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I could never understand the hang-up with "replacement theology." If you are a Christian, then you believe that the Old Covenant is replaced with the New. It represents a theological difference between Judaism and Christianity. As a result, I cannot understand why people are offended by this. If you don't believe that the Old Covenant is replaced by the New, then you are not a Christian.

I think the real deception in the church is that the Jews were exiled somewhere around the destruction of the temple. Somewhere along the line, the awareness that this was false teaching was replaced with defense from the Jewish community that the church does not replace the Jews. The whole problem was caused by the church saying that the Jews were dispersed because they rejected Christ. Shlomo Sand makes a very good argument that this never actually happened and it is this teaching that is actually antisemitic in his book The Invention of the Jewish People.

I could agree with this because it is this teaching that is not supported by scripture. There is nowhere in the New Testament that says that the Jews will go into a second exile. There is nowhere in the Old Testament that says that the Jews will go into a second exile. Suggesting that they did is false teaching, and it is more than likely the motivation for the defense that the church did not replace the Jews, which has created a lot of confusion for people 2000 years later.

In reality, the New Testament teaches that there is no second exile that the Jews should expect. There is simply a black and white reality. You accept Christ or you don't. Very simple, and modern archeology supports the theory that there was never a mass exile that writers like Josephus described. There were never as many people as writers like Josephus suggested. There was never a second exile. This is false teaching that is the foundation for suggesting that replacement theology is false teaching because it builds upon the idea that the Jews were dispersed again in order to be regathered, which will prove that they haven't been "replaced" at some point. Even if you used the verse about the hardening the came upon Israel in Romans 11. This is still black and white. There is no way to create a solid case for a second exile in scripture using this verse or using this verse in combination with any other verse from the Old Testament.

In reality, they weren't replaced because there was never a second exile to begin with. According to Christianity, it has always been black or white. You accept Christ or you don't. This whole thing that is being played out right now is more or less theatre and replacement theology is not a heresy. It represents a fundamental theological difference between Judaism and Christianity. The New Covenant replaces the Old. This is not intended to be delivered as an insult no more than a theological difference between any other two religions would be. Heresy is something that has no support in scripture like the notion of a second exile. Most everything that we generally discuss about these things using this false notion of a second exile becomes nothing more than a superstitious desire to see evidence or some sort of manifestation that a person hopes will help increase their faith based on guesswork.
 





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Lisa

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I could never understand the hang-up with "replacement theology." If you are a Christian, then you believe that the Old Covenant is replaced with the New. It represents a theological difference between Judaism and Christianity. As a result, I cannot understand why people are offended by this. If you don't believe that the Old Covenant is replaced by the New, then you are not a Christian.
It’s the terminology. Christianity didn’t replace Judaism though. Christianity doesn’t replace the law which is what Judaism represents. Jesus fulfilled the law, He didn’t replace it.
Matthew‬ ‭5:17
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

‭‭
I think the real deception in the church is that the Jews were exiled somewhere around the destruction of the temple. Somewhere along the line, the awareness that this was false teaching was replaced with defense from the Jewish community that the church does not replace the Jews. The whole problem was caused by the church saying that the Jews were dispersed because they rejected Christ. Shlomo Sand makes a very good argument that this never actually happened and it is this teaching that is actually antisemitic in his book The Invention of the Jewish People.

I could agree with this because it is this teaching that is not supported by scripture. There is nowhere in the New Testament that says that the Jews will go into a second exile. There is nowhere in the Old Testament that says that the Jews will go into a second exile. Suggesting that they did is false teaching, and it is more than likely the motivation for the defense that the church did not replace the Jews, which has created a lot of confusion for people 2000 years later.
Paul tells us why God has used the gentiles..us Christians..
Romans‬ ‭11:11‬ ‭
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
‭‭God has His plans for His people and Romans 11 makes those plans clear. God is not done with His people.

As to the Jews not being dispersed..where were they gonna live after this happened?
Mark‬ ‭13:1-2‬ ‭
As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down.
‭‭And doesn’t history prove that they were dispersed? Only becoming a nation again in 1948?


According to Christianity, it has always been black or white. You accept Christ or you don't. This whole thing that is being played out right now is more or less theatre and replacement theology is not a heresy.
You are confusing two different concepts. Christianity which is God’s offer to the world of salvation and does not replace that He still has His chosen people the Jews.
Romans‬ ‭1:16‬ ‭
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
The gospel was always going to be offered to the gentiles..Jesus knew this because even before He died and was rejected by the Jews, he died for sins of the world.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
‭‭
 





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It’s the terminology. Christianity didn’t replace Judaism though. Christianity doesn’t replace the law which is what Judaism represents. Jesus fulfilled the law, He didn’t replace it.
Matthew‬ ‭5:17​
‭‭
Christianity did replace Judaism. If a Jew accepts Christ, he becomes a Christian. The New Covenant replaces the Old. It is black and white. You accept Christ or you don't. That is what Christianity teaches. You are using the same verse that I would use to support that Christianity is black and white. Fulfillment of the law is the establishment of the New Covenant which replaces the Old.

As to the Jews not being dispersed..where were they gonna live after this happened?
Mark‬ ‭13:1-2‬ ‭​

As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down.

‭‭And doesn’t history prove that they were dispersed? Only becoming a nation again in 1948?

‭‭
Nope, there was never a second exile. What happened is that there was conversion to Judaism that took place between the years of 200 BC and 100 AD. It is well known that the Hasmoneans forced conversion. It is well known that Herod was descended from converts. It is likely that the Septuagint was created for Greek converts. It is these people who make up the migratory patterns that we attribute to the history of the Jews. This is followed by the conversion of the Khazars. However, as far as Jews living in what you are calling Israel, there was never a forced expulsion after the destruction of the second temple from this location.

The suggestion of the destruction of the second temple does not suggest that there was ever any judgment made to exile them again either. It really just reiterates that Christianity does replace Judaism according to the New Testament because the New Covenant replaces the Old. This is a fundamental theological difference between religions.

So quite frankly, there is no reason to associate the verses from Zechariah with anything that is happening without filling in significant portions with the imagination. It is possible that there are significant portions of this book that are missing as well, which wouldn't affect the validity of scripture. There are significant transitions missing in this book.

Chapters 5 and 6 talk about things that resemble the first several chapters of Revelation. Then, in chapter 7, we are talking about King Darius and the time of exile. It says,

"‘I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations, where they were strangers. The land they left behind them was so desolate that no one traveled through it. This is how they made the pleasant land desolate."

The only time this could have legitimately happened as far as we are aware is during the time of the actual exile. Since the return, the land has had people traipsing through it on a regular basis. So this has either happened already and has nothing to do with this "regathering" you are suggesting is taking place right now, or it hasn't happened at all.

In either case, proving one way or the other requires filling in a lot of blanks with our imagination because this is an identifying feature. No one traveled through the land. That has not been applicable in the past 2000 years and we can't try to whitewash this by pairing it with other verses. No matter what you pair it with, it will not fit the way you are hoping it will. It will not ever support that what we are seeing now is a literal manifestation of the fulfillment of a prophecy that combines a couple of chapters from Zechariah with Romans 11.

So I think you are confusing two different concepts by suggesting that chapter 8 represents what is happening now. So you see how Zechariah has jumped around without any real transitions. We go ahead to the time of the fulfillment of revelation, then back to king darius, then forward to now, then we skip over to judgment taking place at an unspecified time, back to the birth of Christ, back to the second coming.

So between chapters 5 through 9, the timeline has appeared to change around 6 times without any transitions made from one timeline to the other. This could be because the text is fragmentary and there are pieces missing without challenging the validity of what is available. This could be because it is supposed to be this way. In either case, there are large blanks that have to be filled in with the imagination and there is no reason to make any connection between these verses and the verses from Romans 11.

And Romans 11 does not suggest any sort of exile or migration that is caused by the hardening. All of these conclusions are built with the imagination. Therefore, in reality, there are several timeframes that Zechariah 8 fits rather well in. It actually fits very well with the time of Christ because you remember that all of the disciples were "jews" right? And ever since the birth of Christianity, the land has been inhabited and people have come from many places expecting something from it. We remember the history of the crusades right?

It still requires filling in a lot of blanks because the text does not follow a linear timeline that would allow us to ever come to an agreement on when this will or did take place, but again. There is nothing within Romans 11 that makes a direct connection with this book. This is not a terrible thing. It is not the end of the world if there is not a way to create a connection between these two passages. Legitimately we can't directly make them unless they are forced, so why are so many people comfortable with making presumptions.

"For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry." 1 Samuel 15:23

"Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 10:12.
 





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Peter knows..
2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭​

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them​
Do you even know who Peter is talking about in this verse and chapter? It would again be wise to take the verse and put it back into the context of the Chapter instead of taking it and trying to make it stand on it own. Peter is NOT talking about Born Again Christians here, instead who is he talking about?

2 Peter 2:But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Does that really sound like Born Again Christians to you? Really?

Clearly these are NOT Born Again Christians, they are False Prophets/Teachers who feast upon the real Sheep.

Then comes the verse you quoted, out of context, saying IF, see that IF, they were to escape some sins knowing about Christ then if they again FALSE TEACHERS AND PROPHETS would be worse in their final state. In otherwords, people like Binny Hinn or Joel Olsteen, who are NOT Born Again but are False Teachers and Prophets, even IF they have been able to overcome some Sin by knowing about Jesus, the fact is, in the END they are going to be worse off, why? Because they knew about Jesus and still rejected Him and even worse used Him for their own gain.

Here is commentary to go into what I am talking about so you can properly understand the Scripture:

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,.... The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said (q),
"he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled , "with the pollutions of the world", what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:''

these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have

through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Saviour"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place. Now if, after all this knowledge and reformation,

they are again entangled therein; in the pollutions of the world, in worldly lusts, which are as gins, pits and snares:

and overcome; by them, so as to be laden with them, and led away, and entirely governed and influenced by them:

the latter end, or state,

is worse with them than the beginning; see Matthew 12:45. Their beginning, or first estate, was that in which they were born, a state of darkness, ignorance, and sin, and in which they were brought up, and was either the state of Judaism, or of Gentilism; their next estate was an outward deliverance and escape from the error of the one, or of the other, and an embracing and professing the truth of the Christian religion, joined with a becoming external conversation; and this their last estate was an apostasy from the truth of the Gospel they had professed, a reception of error and heresy, and a relapse into sin and immorality, which made their case worse than it was at first; for, generally, such persons are more extravagant in sinning; are like raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; and are seldom, or ever, recovered; and by their light, knowledge, and profession, their punishment will be more aggravated, and become intolerable.
The answer is to not fall into sin to cope but to trust in God.
Are you seriously this dense or do you do it purposefully?

Of course Lisa everyone would say that is the answer, but that isnt always reality whatsoever. Do you live in a bubble or something? Can you not see the World? Do you even attend a Church? I really wonder about you sometimes, its like you live in some fantasy world and you have like zero ability to conceptualize the reality of the world around you.

And trust me I can relate to having many horrendous things happen to me but I also have the answer in that God is here to help us in our struggles and that is what I would tell someone struggling, because I have struggled and have had God help me.
I agree that God is there in our struggles but according to your doctrine if that struggle caused them to fall into Sin, then they are LOST. And if they LOST their Salvation, they cant get it back (which I agree on 100%, but since it is impossible to lose your salvation then no one who is truly saved ever has to worry about that).

My question was what value you are you to those that HAVE struggled and it lead to Sin? Are you going to say what you say on this site which is they Lost their Salvation and cant get it back?

Where is that line, did they cross it?

Do you realize that sometimes God allows us to experience terrible depths of Sin to pull us out for His Glory and to be a testimony of His Grace, and use us to help others who are in that same situation?

I mean after reading your horribly ice cold responses to my Testimony and things I have experienced, I would never in my life want to have you beside me if I am struggling in my Faith or honestly would desire you near anyone else who is either.

There is no comfort or understanding to anything you have ever said to me concerning these things, I wouldnt want to see anyone who was even close to where I have been get near you for comfort or advice in these situations...

And that is what the answer should be, not fall into sin to cope but if you do, all’s not lost. That just encourages falling.
It is sad that that is what you read into what I and others say when we speak about real life and things we have experienced and places it has taken us.

If you think what I and others have said encourages falling then you are choosing to see something that is never there. Again I just wrote something out and THAT is what you see in it? Not Hope in Christ? That speaks again more about your state of mind and heart than anything I actually have ever said...

I think that we should live by faith and live by the truth presented in scripture, not in the way we want the scriptures to read but in the way they do read.
I agree, but you are liar if you say that you always do live by Faith and live by the Truth, if you tell me you havent doubted or sinned then I wont believe you, ever...

When you went so fully back to your sin, was it because you knew you could never lose your salvation?
Absolutely not, and that is what blows my mind about you and people like you. All of you act like if you believe you cant lose your Salvation then you just cant wait to hop into Sin asap. It literally had no bearing on me going into Sin.

Would it have been different if you had thought you could? Would you try harder to keep to the faith then?
If I believed what you teach then I probably would have Lost absolutely all hope and probably would have completely turned away from God all together. I would have had to say to myself well look at me, I was saved and then I found myself in this position I have to have lost my Salvation by now, God hates me forever and He is just going to condemn me to Hell for sure. I probably would have just tried even harder to Sin and turn even more and more from God because I would have figured He hates me and is sending me to Hell anyhow so whats the point.

Thank God I didnt believe those lies and Repented and cried out for God to help deliver me from the Sin I was sinking into. And my dear Lisa, that is just what He did, restored my relationship, took the circumstances I found myself in that were terrible and reversed them for His Glory and made whats the Scripture say, ALL THINGS work together for the Good of those who love the Lord...

And why do you keep saying it like I have this gospel..it is part of the gospel..even Peter is aware of it.
I am not exactly sure what you are saying, but what I can tell you is that what you teach about Losing Salvation, which boils down to a Works Based Salvation, is NOT part of the Gospel. No where in the Gospel is that found. What is found in the Gospel is,if you Repent, which means change your mind, if you believe in your heart that Jesus is God who died on the cross and resurrected, and confess with your mouth and call on Him, then YOU WILL BE SAVED. Not might be, not could be if, not possibly be, it says you WILL be Saved, period.

That is the Gospel, by Faith Alone thru Grace Alone from God Alone and Christ Jesus Work Alone, adding and subtracting nothing. Losing Salvation means you play a part aka WORKS to secure Salvation.

And your own Scripture literally says it, but apparently you are too blind to see it..

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Again its always good to CONTEXTUALIZE the verses instead of trying to make them stand alone to make up your own points about them.

Where is Pauls righteousness? Himself? His works aka the Law? No it is thru Faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by Faith, Alone.

Then Paul speaks of what next? The Resurrection, so this verse really has nothing to do with trying to keep Salvation, it has everything to do with keeping hope and moving forward towards the prize we have which is the new body and Resurrection. But what I want to draw your attention to, which you have skipped over, is that in verse 12 it says that I may apprehend that for which also I AM APPREHENDED of Christ Jesus.

Do you understand what that is saying?

katalambanó: to lay hold of, seize
Original Word: καταλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katalambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-al-am-ban'-o)
Definition: to lay hold of, seize
Usage: (a) I seize tight hold of, arrest, catch, capture, appropriate, (b) I overtake, (c) mid. aor: I perceived, comprehended.

In case you dont get what Paul is saying here, he is saying that he is looking to lay hold of the Resurrection, but that Jesus has laid hold OF HIM ALREADY. Jesus has seized tight hold of Paul ALREADY.

Another definition of that Greek Word:

2638 katalambánō (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," which intensifies 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – properly, take hold of exactly, with decisive initiative (eager self-interest); to grasp something in a forceful (firm) manner; (figuratively) to apprehend (comprehend), "making it one's own."

Paul is saying Jesus has aggressively taken hold of him with eager self interest forcefully and has made Paul His own. If you were to study out these verses more deeply you would see clearly that its about Jesus grasp on us vs our grasp on Him.

You think you need to hold tightly on to Christ under your own power or you will Lose your Salvation, Paul says I will keep to hold onto Christ but Christ has ALREADY laid hold onto me. Paul is saying his isnt done, but Christ has ALREADY done it.

Here is reality Lisa, you arent really holding on to Christ, He is however 100% holding on to you. I hope one day you really understand this..

You take that as a negative trait? You really need to read Scripture more, do you think Paul was accommodating of others?

1 Cor 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

And there it is again, you try and find fault with everyone and everything, it is sad to see, hope God opens your eyes to what everyone on the board can see about you dear...
 





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@Daciple

I was pondering on this and it occurred to me that Paul reflects a question that he must surely have been asked by the legalists in his presentation of the Gospel of Grace...

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

If people are not scandalised by the grace of God, it seems unlikely they have understood the implications of the gospel!


*On a purely human level, as I was growing up, the knowledge that my own parents would never disinherit and cut me off as a family member never led me to steal from them, take crack or have orgies in their living room. I love and respect them and would never consider doing any of the above anyway ;-)
 





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@Daciple

I was pondering on this and it occurred to me that Paul reflects a question that he must surely have been asked by the legalists in his presentation of the Gospel of Grace...

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

If people are not scandalised by the grace of God, it seems unlikely they have understood the implications of the gospel!


*On a purely human level, as I was growing up, the knowledge that my own parents would never disinherit and cut me off as a family member never led me to steal from them, take crack or have orgies in their living room. I love and respect them and would never consider doing any of the above anyway ;-)
Yet you believe God will disinherit or cut off those who aren’t Christians in the ages to come?

This is just the opposite of the most common knee jerk reaction objection that most Christians have when presented with UR.
 





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Yet you believe God will disinherit or cut off those who aren’t Christians in the ages to come?
Well Todd that is of course because the Bible is clear about it, you however, no matter how often are shown dont care. And per the norm love to turn every. single. thread. into your UR topic...
 





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Yet you believe God will disinherit or cut off those who aren’t Christians in the ages to come?

This is just the opposite of the most common knee jerk reaction objection that most Christians have when presented with UR.
Todd, I hope you pick up on the fact that I like you as a guy and respect the way you relate to others...

But (and isn’t there always one?)...

I simply cannot see how the notion of an irresistible redemption that goes against the free will of the soul who truly hates God respects free will, which to me is the theme of God’s interaction with mankind. I won’t judge your own salvation on you adopting this doctrine (as you are another mans servant) but I cannot reconcile it with the Bible.
 





Lisa

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Do you even know who Peter is talking about in this verse and chapter? It would again be wise to take the verse and put it back into the context of the Chapter instead of taking it and trying to make it stand on it own. Peter is NOT talking about Born Again Christians here, instead who is he talking about?
Yes, I do..he is talking about the saved. You’re reading your own bias into the verse.
If after they have escaped the defilement of the world, but the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...that’s a Christian right there.
If they are entangled again in them..in what? Defilement , if they are entangled again in defilement and are overcome. Its not a one time sin and you’re done, its when you are overcome..and maybe that would be the one big time..idk. The point is don’t take God’s grace lightly.
Anyway..back to the verse and he really spells it out here...
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. Who knows the way of righteousness? Christians right? What’s Peter saying, its better if you didn’t know Jesus then turn away from him.

Are you seriously this dense or do you do it purposefully?

Of course Lisa everyone would say that is the answer, but that isnt always reality whatsoever. Do you live in a bubble or something? Can you not see the World? Do you even attend a Church? I really wonder about you sometimes, its like you live in some fantasy world and you have like zero ability to conceptualize the reality of the world around you.
The answer is not to fall into sin to cope and to do that you trust God. Isn’t God the rock to which we run. If you don’t run to God as a Christian...what do you think that looks like to others? Do you think that makes God look good? You ran straight back to sin and not to God and you call yourself a Christian? What do you tell others who want to run to sin and not to God, good job? Should I pat you on the back for making God look bad, for looking just like a hypocrite saying God is the answer, but no not for Daciple..he ran to sin.

which I agree on 100%, but since it is impossible to lose your salvation then no one who is truly saved ever has to worry about that).
Then you are totally wrong and scripture points it out but every time I try to tell you, you shake your head and say no dear one. :rolleyes:

I mean after reading your horribly ice cold responses to my Testimony and things I have experienced, I would never in my life want to have you beside me if I am struggling in my Faith or honestly would desire you near anyone else who is either.

There is no comfort or understanding to anything you have ever said to me concerning these things, I wouldnt want to see anyone who was even close to where I have been get near you for comfort or advice in these situations...
Did you really expect a pat on the back or something? You sinned, big time when you should have run to God. Isn’t that what we teach kids..run to God He’s your strong tower, He is your rock? What am I supposed to say, good going? NO, I’m not going to say good going, you blew it and you’re lucky you made it back to tell the tale. And, I would have been so ashamed to tell that story, but you wanted people to know what you did, because I think you liked going back to sin. You can say you didn’t, but you did to go that far in and then boast about it..like it was something cool. It wasn’t. You were wrong, and to act like you weren’t is wrong on me. We don’t encourage each other into sin, but to God.

If you think what I and others have said encourages falling then you are choosing to see something that is never there. Again I just wrote something out and THAT is what you see in it? Not Hope in Christ? That speaks again more about your state of mind and heart than anything I actually have ever said...
You fell right? You got back in..isn’t that encouraging others to do the same? When you run to sin in times of trouble..then where is the hope in Christ?

Absolutely not, and that is what blows my mind about you and people like you. All of you act like if you believe you cant lose your Salvation then you just cant wait to hop into Sin asap. It literally had no bearing on me going into Sin.
Sure it didn’t, you wouldn’t have done it if you thought you couldn’t get back...

If I believed what you teach then I probably would have Lost absolutely all hope and probably would have completely turned away from God all together. I would have had to say to myself well look at me, I was saved and then I found myself in this position I have to have lost my Salvation by now, God hates me forever and He is just going to condemn me to Hell for sure. I probably would have just tried even harder to Sin and turn even more and more from God because I would have figured He hates me and is sending me to Hell anyhow so whats the point.

Thank God I didnt believe those lies and Repented and cried out for God to help deliver me from the Sin I was sinking into. And my dear Lisa, that is just what He did, restored my relationship, took the circumstances I found myself in that were terrible and reversed them for His Glory and made whats the Scripture say, ALL THINGS work together for the Good of those who love the Lord...
Right..you would have said, boy I better not do what I want to do..and that is return to my vomit. You used your mom’s death as an excuse to go back to the sin that you were missing. That’s what you did. Let’s not sugar coat what you did for sympathy. I have sympathy for your suffering, not how you handled it. How can you tell people about a great God when you didn’t run to Him in your problems? How can you not see the hypocrite you are in this?
Yes, He did work them out for His glory..but what more glory could He have had that His own came to Him in their time of suffering? How great the glory then?

We press on not shrink back
Philippians‬ ‭3:12, 14‬ ‭
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.​

You think you need to hold tightly on to Christ under your own power or you will Lose your Salvation, Paul says I will keep to hold onto Christ but Christ has ALREADY laid hold onto me. Paul is saying his isnt done, but Christ has ALREADY done it.

Here is reality Lisa, you arent really holding on to Christ, He is however 100% holding on to you. I hope one day you really understand this..
O yes, you need to be holding on tightly to Jesus, everything around you is trying to get you away from Him. Why do you think we must abide in Him and He in us. He knows our hearts, sin is still waiting at the door waiting to pounce on us. And one of the fruits of the spirit is self control. We must fight sin, not give into it otherwise we would be giving license to sin and that’s not what the Bible teaches.

You take that as a negative trait?
Yes I do!
James‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.​
He doesn’t really take a stand either way..always trying to be friends with everyone. Posting questionable stuff. Idk, should I also say that doesn’t matter too? Because doesn’t it matter?
‭‭
 





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..always trying to be friends with everyone. Posting questionable stuff. Idk, should I also say that doesn’t matter too? Because doesn’t it matter?
‭‭
Matthew the Tax Collector

9 As Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, “Follow Me.” So he arose and followed Him.

10 Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
 





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Well Todd that is of course because the Bible is clear about it, you however, no matter how often are shown dont care. And per the norm love to turn every. single. thread. into your UR topic...
See that's the thing...so much of the confusion and bickering about stupid topics like once saved, always saved vs eternal securtiy, salvation by grace vs works, pre-destination versus free-will, and the confusion over what "All Israel shall be saved" means, all goes away as soon as the bible is viewed in the light of Univerisal Reconciliation.

And of course I am going to bring it up whenever I get the chance. When you know that God's Character has been misrepresented you take every chance you have to bring it up. No different than you feel the need to criticise me everytime I bring it up, right?
 





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Todd, I hope you pick up on the fact that I like you as a guy and respect the way you relate to others...

But (and isn’t there always one?)...

I simply cannot see how the notion of an irresistible redemption that goes against the free will of the soul who truly hates God respects free will, which to me is the theme of God’s interaction with mankind. I won’t judge your own salvation on you adopting this doctrine (as you are another mans servant) but I cannot reconcile it with the Bible.
The feeling is mutual, both the fact that I like you and respect the way you relate to others also and that I cannot see how the you can't see how eternal damnation is at odds with the Character of God as presented by Jesus Christ. Aren't we all fotunate that our slavation is not dependent on our doctrine being correct?

If slavation is truly by grace alone and nothing I do makes me worthy of it, then God is not just. How could he be just and give grace to me, but not my neighbor. If you claim that grace was given to my neighbor the same as it was to me, then I guess we don't understand the meaning of grace the same. If I have to accept that Grace, then slavation is not by grace alone is it. It requires me acting on and accepting that grace, i.e a work. So slavation cannot be by grace alone, unless God has pre-destined each one of us to either salvation or eternal damnation. But of course then that would negate the principle of free-will. So you have an unexplainable conundrum.

This conundrum is prefectly eliminated with the doctrine of Apokatastasis (reconciliation of all things), which is clearly stated multiple times in the Bible. I just don't understand how Christians can't see UR as a win-win situation and cling to the idea that God and Christ are not completely victorious in their desire and mission to save the entire world.

Did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world or only for those who believe? If you say he died for the sins of the whole world, and one single person spends eternity in hell, it means he failed.

Christ said if he be lifted up he would draw (the greek word here literaly means "to drag") all men unto himself. So if even one person spends eeternity in hell, it means Christ is a false prophet.
 





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Uuuh, did anyone see this? They've already started the sacrifices. At 2:35 they burn food.
 





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Technically, there is no historical evidence of the presence of a Jewish people until around 500 bc in the Elephantine region. Therefore, it is possible to assume that a very small minority began to grow as a nation because of conversion during the time of the Hasmoneans and that most of the people we consider Jewish are from a Greek or Italian background in origin not including the later conversion of Khazars.

There is nothing wrong with this according to the Old Testament. Whether they were converts or not, accepting Judaism is the same thing as being accepted a descendant of Abraham. There are two significant examples of conversion in the stories of Ruth and Rahab. A convert to Judaism joins and becomes a recipient of the promises as well. However, what this means is that Judaism is a religion and not an ethnic identity. It also means that the migration of Judaism took place because of the process of conversion increasing the number of people identifying with this belief. As a result of this, there is no reason to believe that there was ever a second exile, which makes sense since it can't be supported with scripture to begin with.

There was a period of conversion that created a larger community, and this larger community spread throughout the world. However, the population that remained in the location believed to be Israel was never exiled by force and has remained in this place ever since the time of Christ. This could possibly mean that some verses mean something else entirely if we consider the reality that a large majority of the Jewish population descends from converts, which is why we should not try to fill in blanks with our imagination.
 





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Did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world or only for those who believe? If you say he died for the sins of the whole world, and one single person spends eternity in hell, it means he failed.

Christ said if he be lifted up he would draw (the greek word here literaly means "to drag") all men unto himself. So if even one person spends eeternity in hell, it means Christ is a false prophet.
If I wrote a cheque for the meals eaten by the diners in a whole five star restaurant, then stood up and told everyone that is what I had done, still only those who came to me to receive that cheque and place their own meme on it would receive payment for their meals. If the others were then unable to pay their bill, despite my generosity, they would still end up washing dishes ;-)
 





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@Todd

If I have to accept that Grace, then slavation is not by grace alone is it. It requires me acting on and accepting that grace, i.e a work. So slavation cannot be by grace alone, unless God has pre-destined each one of us to either salvation or eternal damnation.

Let me paste back an annotated version, which reflects my perspective:-

“It requires me acting on and accepting that grace, i.e [choice]”

Is choice implicit in John 3?

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Both believing and not believing are active elements that are not “works” in the way that many understand them, yet are regarded as the essential work of our faith... (in this occasion, not an oxymoron)...

John 6

28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

P.s. to a hypothetical question which tests hearts rather than doctrines, would I like anyone to miss out on the gift of eternal life? I would not wish anyone, even my worst enemy were lost. If God could somehow create a loophole where staunch unbelievers I care for could be shown the consequences of their rejection at some microsecond between life and eternity, I would not feel cheated by God if more people “made it” than seems to be scriptural indicated.

As for me, I have no jurisdiction in this area and I feel that where it is an area that equates to similar speculation on things like “will our pets be taken in the Rapture”. God’s plan of salvation is His plan, not mine, so I submit accordingly as a sinner, saved by grace.
 





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