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Prophetic Expectations
- Thread starter Red Sky at Morning
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"Every Israelite that has every lived will go through the tribulation in the land."
What kind of absurdity is this ?
Red Sky at Morning
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Bringing things into focus, there are things happening at the moment that all of us must take seriously. I have been a Christian for over 35 years and studied prophecy (on and off, and sometimes not wanting them to be true) for 30 of them! What is happening now has the type jumping out of the Bible and onto the evening news. Don't believe me - watch.
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Red Sky at Morning
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Perhaps @cfowen could explain how this would happen?
Just for kicks, can you name any event that has happened since the destruction of the temple in 70AD that is an absolute, 100% guaranteed, fulfillment of Bible prophecy? Most people say the formation of Israel in 1948 but, of course, that's not 100% guaranteed and assumptions don't count.
Red Sky at Morning
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An explanation of history will show that the great majority of prophetic utterances in the Old and New Testaments have already been fulfilled. The capture of Jerusalem in 1917 in which the British Royal Flying Corps played a major part (As Birds Flying) completed a major phase of Biblical prophecy
This book is the story of the events leading up to the capture of Jerusalem in December 1917 by British forces under General Allenby and by the subsequent defeat of the Turkish army in Palestine. It is also the story of the men who as instruments of God's will made it possible. To them this book is dedicated.
For the traveler on the long road of history with eyes to see and ears to hear the capture of Jerusalem in December 1917 was a SIGNPOST completing a major phase of Biblical prophecy and pointing towards events that would shape the present and looking toward the culmination of this age.
Isaiah a high-ranking official at the royal court of ancient Israel foresaw this event two and a half thousand years ahead of his own day (Isaiah 31:5). Daniel the prophet (Daniel 12:12) foretold the year and the prophet Haggai foretold the day and the month (Haggai 2:18-20)...To us this is past history but not long past. This is the story of the capture of a city--Jerusalem!
This is also the story of two iron-willed men--General Edmund H. H. Allenby and Thomas Edward Lawrence (of Arabia).
Allenby believed in God. He often consulted the Bible for spiritual guidance and for the valuable historical and geographical insights it offered for an army campaigning in Palestine. Frequently he would ask his staff officers to bow their heads and pray with him for the success of an attack with few casualties. Surprise mobility and concentration were the keynotes of Allenby's victories backed by relentless determination in the pursuit.
Lawrence was a poet scholar soldier writer mechanic diplomat archaeologist--a strange and heady mixture--at home equally with the humblest soldier airman or Arab or with the greatest politician general or sheik. His own endurance became almost legendary among the Bedouin. While widely read in military history but with little formal military training it was a remarkable achievement that he succeeded against a merciless foe a desolate environment and within an exclusive tribal warrior society. His powerful mind exerted an iron-willed control over his physical body. He was the driving force the "on the spot" intelligence behind the Arab revolt.
P.s. I just saw this one and it caught my eye...
P.p.s. on the wider implicit question you raise...
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The Jews return to Israel is an absolute 100% guaranteed fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
Amos 9 14 "I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God."
Isaiah 43 5“Do not fear, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
And gather you from the west.
6“I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring My sons from afar
And My daughters from the ends of the earth,"
Red Sky at Morning
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This book was written in 1983 and my Parents read it (before the events described happened btw)...
From the comments....
"I had this book - then gave it away - then read an excerpt online - and felt I needed to reread it. A true account of a man's journey and hearing the voice of the Lord in the 80's - 90's in regard of the Jewish Exodus from Russia to Israel in the 90's. Today you can see the outworking of his visions - the exodus of Jews from Russia to Israel - but in the read I also see an unfinished work yet to work itself out with routes concerning the Scandinavian countries and 'the happenings'. The times we are entering now, with Israel and Iran and such, leave the door open for that. This is a man's journal of walking out what God had showed him."
And
A MUST READ FOR THOSE WHO SEE ISRAEL IN BIBLICAL PROPHESY
BySherrillon 24 April 2015
Format: PaperbackVerified Purchase
IT IS SO PHENOMENAL TO REREAD THIS BOOK, AFTER MANY YEARS, AND SEE HOW ALL THE PROPHETIC WORDS AND PLANS, THAT WERE GIVEN REGARDING THE MASS EXODUS OF RUSSIAN JEWS. HAVE COME TO PASS. THE MIRACLES HELD WITHIN ARE SO ENCOURAGING. WELL WRITTEN AND AN EASY READ.
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All Biblical prophesy involves Israel. In God's eyes, Israel has not existed as a separate nation since the temple was destroyed in 70AD. This was due to Israel's unbelief concerning Christ as the Messiah. Since they have no temple, it's impossible for them to keep the law. This 2000 year period we're living in are the Times of the Gentiles. Any so-called Jew today must believe Paul's Gospel in 1Cor 15:1-4 to get saved, just like us.Gentiles.
Since Israel has been set aside, it is impossible that any prophecy has been fulfilled since 70AD. Preterism is a fake branch of Christianity. The pophesy preachers have zero hard evidence that any prophesy is now being fulfilled. It's all supposition and assumptions. They assume that anything vaguely similar to anything prophetical is fulfillment. When the Times of the Gentiles are over, sometime beyond that, the Jewish New Covenant will start and Israel will then be able to keep the law. Thatis the ENTIRE purpose of the New Covenant. Israel will always be under the law.
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"Since Israel has been set aside..."
Romans 11?
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall isriches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Romans was written to the Jews and Gentiles that were believers in Christ during Acts, that were saved by believing Paul's Gospel in 1Cor 15:1-4.. The Church during Acts was Jewish, because the few believing Gentiles were all grafted into Israel, the good olive tree. Even though Paul was THE only apostle to the Gentiles, he always preached to the unbelieving Jews first, because of the crisis of Israel not believing in Christ. The only purpose of Acts was to convert Israel, so that they believed in Christ.. In Mt 23:39, Christ says that He would not return until Israel accepted Him. Acts was essentially all Israel. The only purpose for the few Gentiles allowed in was so they would provoke Israel to jealousy. It certainly wasn't to build a church, just like the purpose of Christ's ministry wasn't to build a church.
When Romans was written, Israel had not yet set aside. Several years later, Paul received one of his many special unique revelations from God, that he often talks about, and, as a result, the salvation of God was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles in Acts 28:28. Note in vss 25-26, that pronounces on Israel the curse upon Israel, from Isa 6:9-10, for the7th and last time in the Bible - 7 being the number of completion. Seven years later, in 70AD,, with the destruction of the temple, the setting aside of Israel was finalized and it's been that way since then. My pure guess is that this present Times of the Gentiles will be over in either 2063 or 2070, probably 2070. Then, Israel will be back on the scene, the trib will start, and the fulfillment of prophecy will start again. Had Israel accepted Christ during the Gospels or Acts, the New Heavens and New Earth would now be about 1000 years old. The present Church, as directed in Paul's last 7 epistles, is the only purely Gentile Church in the Bible and its believers are the only people in the Bible with a hope of going to Heaven. No one during Acts or the Gospels ever had a hope of heaven. Also, except for Christ, every one who has ever died is still in the grave. The first to escape the grave will be those who SEE the good news found only in Paul's last 7 books, Eph and Col, especially, in the appearing. The second to escape the grave will be in the rapture, which only will involve those believing Jews and Gentiles that lived only during Acts. The last shall be first.
Because of the lack of Bible knowledge by the great bulk of Christianity, most Christians are stuck in the Acts period, because or their reluctance to give up the rapture, which has nothing to do with them, or in the Gospels, because of the red letters. The only people with red letter Bible should be those that already know the Bible. I think Satan was the first to publish a red letter Bible.
Who is your apostle?
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Red Sky at Morning
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1 Corinthians 3 might hold a clue....
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
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@cfowen
As a p.s, given that the Rapture is a doctrine most commonly associated with Paul (who is after all primarily the Apostle to the Gentiles ;-) and the Gentile Thessalonians entertained the idea that the "blessed hope" applied to them, it surprises me that you reject the idea.
Rather than try to argue you out of such a view (if you are saved and the pre-trib view turns out to be correct you may get Raptured anyway ;-) I thought I might attach a couple if clips which give a little insight into why I still believe in the idea...
And
As a p.s, given that the Rapture is a doctrine most commonly associated with Paul (who is after all primarily the Apostle to the Gentiles ;-) and the Gentile Thessalonians entertained the idea that the "blessed hope" applied to them, it surprises me that you reject the idea.
Rather than try to argue you out of such a view (if you are saved and the pre-trib view turns out to be correct you may get Raptured anyway ;-) I thought I might attach a couple if clips which give a little insight into why I still believe in the idea...
And
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You seem like a decent guy that means welI, but I can't watch that stuff. If they are so blind that they can't see that Acts 28 dispensationalism is the only way to bible truth, and that Paul's last 7 epstles containthe only truth for today, then they're not worth paying any attention to. I barely have enough time to listen to, watch, or read the truth, let alone waste time on stuff that I know is trash. I also shun anything with the word rapture or the word prophecy, because, according to the scriptures,.neither have anything to do with truth today. I'm 78 and time is probably short.
Eccl 7:1, "A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth." I'm sure glad I'll be in that 1st resurrection, the one in Heaven that's only covered in Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon.. I'm very blessed to see the truth in the only dispensation in the Bible that has a hope of Heaven.
What's your hope?
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Red Sky at Morning
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My hope? Live or die, Rapture or the rough hands of those who want to kill me, my hope is in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. If I live my whole life without seeing one more fulfilled prophecy and drift away into His presence like Billy Graham, or if I disappear inexplicably some time after an unexplained trumpet sound, that's not up to me.
I am determined to know nothing more than Christ crucified, raised and returning, and with me now by the Holy Spirit, still the most important truth there is!
Whatever we might think about the Rapture, Israel, Isaiah 17 or Ezekiel 38, in the end this is the one thing that will really matter...
God bless!
Somewhere it says that we are justified by Christ's death, but we have Life only because of His resurrection. Therefore, Paul's Gospel of 1Cor 15:1-4 is right on the money. Also, in Eph2:8-9, Paul says it's not possible to earn your salvation through works. This contradicts what James says in Jam 2:24, that justification comes through faith AND works. However, if we look at Jam 1:1, we see that James was written TO the 12 tribes of Israel, a group that does not include us Gentiles..
This is about the simplest, most blatant example of explaining why right division, 2Tim 2:15, is required in order to solve scriptural contradictions. Paul says NO works and James requires works. To rightly divide, we first test the differences, as per Phil 1:10 (see margin). Paul is the apostle to us Gentiles, as he says many times. James is writing to Israel.. We are Gentiles. Therefore, we Gentiles listen to Paul and don't listen to James, as least when in comes to rules and directions for us.. This carries on through most all books in the Bible. Paul is the only apostle we Gentiles have, therefore, Paul's writings take precedence over any other books in the Bible, when it comes our hope, our calling, our resurrection, and any rules or directions that we should adhere to.
It is interesting to note that these 2 directions given in scripture, right division in 2Tim 2:15 and trying or testing the things that differ in Phil 1:10, which are mainly used for removing contradictions and finding out which parts of scripture are written TO us, occur only in Paul's last 7 books. The reason is that since, all other books in the Bible are written to or about Israel, those 2 rules weren't needed until Paul wrote his last 7 books, the only ones written solely to us Gentiles.
Then, there is another form of right division we must consider - the right division of Paul's 14 books into those written during Acts and those written after Acts. This occurs because Acts was a period that was 100% devoted to Israel. The saved Gentile then became PART of Israel because they were grafted into Israel. When the salvation of God was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles in Acts 28:28, Israel was set aside and all things in Acts that pertained to Israel were also set aside. This includes: the Acts Church; the Gifts of the Spirit; the rapture; Paul's 1st 7 books; and most everything else except Paul's Gospel of1Cor 15:1-4, which was proven in Phil 4:15 to be the same Gospel.. Except for Paul's Gospel, none of those Acts things are available today, at least anything I can think of. After Acts 28:28, Paul wrote 7 books. In these, Paul describes a brand new Church, made up of Gentiles plus the few Jews that believe in Paul's Gospel. During Acts, saved Gentiles had essentially nothing except salvation. After Acts, the Gentiles now have every possible spiritual blessing according to Eph 1:3. Note in that same verse, the phrase "heavenly places". The Greek phrase for this occurs ONLY in Ephesians. It means the supra-heavens. The hope of spending eternity in the Supra-Heaven is ONLY for the brand-new Gentile Church found in Paul's last 7 epistles, and is found nowhere else in the Bible. Search and see!
The reason I keep repeating this is that, evidence found mainly in Eph and Col, intimates that, in order to inherit this hope of heaven, one must visually and in their heart, SEE this Unique Hope, believe it, and claim it. To get this very special Gift requires faith, much like Paul's Gospel of Salvation. Let's look at Paul's prayer, in Eph 1:16-23, which covers the blessings we'll get, but only IF we believe. In vs 17 and 18, Paul prays that We SEE these things. If these unique blessings were given to all saved Gentiles, automatically, Paul would have no need to pray for this, Actually, if every saved person got them automatically, there would be no need for any of Paul's last 7 books. Heaven is NOT an automatic thing for saved Gentiles. It seems that you must divorce yourself from Acts and join the Church Which is Christ's Actual Body, Where Christ is the Head, found only in Paul's last 7 books.
Eph 1:16-23
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Based on this prayer of Paul's, there's NO WAY this hope is automatic. Here again, focus on vs 17-18. I believe (and many 1000s of others do also) that, according to scripture, those who do not see and claim this hope, will be in the 4th and last resurrection, at the White Throne Judgement, which happens more than 1000 years from now. The first 3 resurrections are for the only 3 spheres of Blessings, in chronological order, (1) The Appearing = Saved Gentiles, from Acts 28:28 through the end of the present 2000 year Times of the Gentiles, in HEAVEN (2) The Rapture = Saved Jews and Gentiles from Acts, in the NEW JERUSALEM (3) The Nation Israel, in the LAND. These 1st three resurrections have guaranteed salvation and place of spending eternity. The White Throne Judgement is everyone left over. Some with have life, most likely on the New Earth, and some will just cease to exist. I, for one, want Heaven
In a way, I am an evangelist. Although I do evangelize about the saving grace of Christ (not as much as I should, however), I feel my main ministry is to those saved Christians who could spend eternity in Heaven, but only if they developed eyes to see the brand new, most glorious truth, found only in Eph, Col, Phil, 2Tim, Titus, 1Tim, and Philemon. I rearranged these in the order I feel that they should be studied.
I must also say that, of all the some 34,000 (internet numbers, not mine) different Christian belief systems in the world, only accepting the new truth in Paul's last 7 books can give you any added benefits, a hope of spending eternity in Heaven, the ultimate blessing that a Christian could ever pray for. With ALL other systems, like Preterism, Fundamentalism, Raptureism, RedLetterism, Adventism, Acts 2 Dispensationalism, Probably Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, Pentacostalism, Baptistism, Methodism, you name it, you are either saved or you aren't saved. That's it!!!, except maybe for some rewards. No Heaven in any of those systems. Take a Chance. If what I'm saying doesn't pan out, you haven't lost a thing. You're still saved. You're just back to square 1. Win-Win situation. Can't lose.
What I am preaching is not new and I certainly didn't invent any part of it. The day I SAW it, some 30 years ago, I believed it. However, it took 10-15 years to eliminate the Jewish parts of the Bible from my brain, at least those things that don't apply to me. It's been around for about 120 years and it started in England. I would guess there are a half million adherents, maybe more. What attracts people to this truth, called Acts 28 dispensationalism, is the stress on comparing scripture with scripture, not spiritualizing scripture, treating scripture literal, except for the some 8000 figures of speech that occur in the Bible, believing that every word of the entire Bible is truth and is important, treating the Bible as a book, with a beginning, middle, and end, rather than piecemeal, etc., etc., etc.
Just about every book written on this subject can be downloaded free on charleswelch.net or bibleunderstanding.com. There are also 1000s of audios on there, but they are quite old, using old equipment, and some are not of good quality. All of the Bible Study audios of Oscar Baker are on tftmin.org. Here again, they're not perfect, but they're somewhat of better quality than the other. Something else that sets Acts28 dispensationalists is that essentially none of them earn their living from their ministry. They're like Paul - when they need money, they make tents.
One more last thing. Most preachers hate Acts 28 Dispensationalism and they write nasty books and articles and make nasty videos about it. Usually, they use the derogatory terms, ultra-dispensationalism or hyper-dispensationalism,when describing it. There are several reasons for this.
(1) There is no money in preaching Acts 28 dispensationalism. Unlike Paul or the 12, today's preachers preach to make a living. If you think about this, you'll see that it shouldn't be like this. Preachers worry about rocking the money boat. In the OT, the Levites took care of all the preaching and God's other services, like killing the sacrificed animals. They were supported by the commanded 10% tithes from the other 11 tribes. Perfect system. The Levites didn't worry about money and therefore, they taught and preached the truth. The laity had nothing to say about it. If the laity didn't like it, that was just tough. During Acts, I don't even think there was a head preacher, in the assemblies. I think if you wanted to talk, you could talk.
(2) Preachers don't understand it. They're so immersed in their false teaching, they have no idea what the truth is. To get a chuckle, I usually read or, at least, skim the myriad of derogatory books and articles. I can't remember any of these that had any real idea of what this was all about. Their problem is that they base their judgement on the Jewish fables that are their stock in trade and the source of their income.
(3) All denominational Churches are nothing more than Jewish synagogues teaching Jewish doctrine to Gentiles. Also, if the preacher deviates from the denominational standard for that church, which, right or wrong, hasn't changed in 100 years, he will be fired. Denominational preachers live in little tiny boxes, as far as their preaching is concerned. If the preacher doesn't believe that our loving God tortures His creation that doesn't believe in Him, in fire, 24/7, forever, he will definitely have problems getting a job, unless he lies and doesn't tell anyone about what he truly believes. I do understand the value of churches so far ias fellowship goes but, for teaching or true Bible knowledge, the Churches are generally very poor. Some are good for getting saved, but not all.
(4) Like the Catholic priesthood, those in the denominational system don't want you to know much. If you knew everything, they would be out of a job. In reality, they don't know any more than their "laity" knows. And, with their jumbled up mixture of contradictory Jewish and Gentile truths, all they really teach is confusion. They hate Acts28 dispensationalism because of its simplicity. If you can muster up enough faith to get rid of the Jewish stuff and focus on the total of 27 pages (in my old Oxford Bible) that cover Paul's last 7 books, you can be a master in the truth in no time. You could even get saved in Paul's last 7 books, if you had to, .with a little help from Paul's Gospel in 1Cor 15:1-4 and maybe a little help from the book of John.
Who is your Apostle?
I pray that God blesses you and yours, brother.
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Red Sky at Morning
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From my study of the scriptures, very little in that video is true. What no one seems to SEE, in scripture, is that the Israel of God has played no part in anything since 70AD and, since all prophecy in the Bible concerns Israel, zero prophecy has been fulfilled since 70AD. Nothing has occurred since then that you can 100% absolutely prove is fulfilled prophecy. Your "proofs" are based entirely on assumptions. Until you can prove, without any doubt at all, that any prophecy has been fulfilled since 70AD, your beliefs concerning this are invalid. When God puts ALL of Israel, past and present, into the Land, everyone on earth will know it. Also, since all those Talmudic Khazarian Jews in Israel base all their doctrine on traditions, it is impossible for them to be the Israel of God. I've seen quite a few interviews with these fakes, where they said the Torah is all parables. It seems that they say they are Jews, but are not, with few exceptions. Zionism is a heretical movement, as is any, "bringing in the kingdom" movement.
The 2nd Coming will NOT happen until Israel, as a nation, accepts Christ as the promised Messiah. This is what Christ, Himself said in Mt 23:39, "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Can't get much plainer than that!
Can't you see in scripture that the hope during Acts, at best, was the New Jerusalem, whereas our hope in Ephesians and Colossians etc., is Far Above All Heavens?
Can't you see in scripture that during Acts, the saved Gentiles were grafted into Israel, making the Church in Acts entirely Jewish, whereas, after Acts, the Gentile Church today is not part of Israel, at all?
These are contradictions. Anytime there is a contradiction between a passage in Paul's post-Acts epistles with a passage that occurs elsewhere, you MUST believe only what is said in Paul's post-Acts epistles. There are several reasons for this but, to me, the best one is that Paul's post-Acts epistles are Paul's LATEST WORD, based on Paul's most recent revelation from God. In Eph 3:3, Paul says, "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, He mentioned The Mystery earlier in Eph 1:9. This mystery basically includes the new hope, calling, and resurrection found in Eph, etc. In Eph 3:9, Paul says that this mystery has been hid IN GOD since the world began. It was not hid IN THE SCRIPTURES OF THE PROPHETS, like the Mystery of Christ in Rom 16:25-26. There are several mysteries in Paul's writings.
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O boy can you take up manual labour as well ?
Red Sky at Morning
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In the end, in the Eternal State, the dwelling place of God will be with Man. How He figures out how to do it geographically doesn't really concern me. My hope is and always will be in the Lord himself. I am happy to leave living arrangements to Him and stick with John 3:16 ;-)