Nations taking their places for Ezekiel 38 / Psalm 83 / Isaiah 17

Daze

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you consistently push arguments that ultimately are calling for muslim blood. i dont think Jesus will forgive you, why would i want your forgiveness?
He is a Christian Zionist. What do you expect? Those most hateful to Muslims see modern day Israel as some kind of savior to mankind while they routinely take the blood of innocents.

It's interesting how many trinitarians see modern day Israel as holy while the anti-christ will claim to be a prophet then god incarnate.. and these are the people who already believe such a thing can happen (man into God).
You know when the anti-christ appears they will bow immediately.


I seen a video this morning with a pastor in Florida freaking out because his church was empty while a masjid was full (it was jummah).

Kinda funny and sad at the same time. Perhaps this has something to do with their hate? Christianity dying out while Islam is on the rise?


Not much anyone can do about this, Islam was prophesied to cover the globe.

It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it. (9:33 Quran)
 

SomeNOBODY0

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So you are now fully aware that Rev 18 says the blood of the prophets and saints was on her.
Only Jerusalem fits that accusation and there are no prophets since Mohammad..and if you reject Mohammad then you would say Jesus. Eitherway Jesus accused them of killing prophets.

Youre also ignoring the connection to jeremiah 2, 3 and Zecheriah 5. Eg zech 5 tells us the wicked woman (judea) would be taken to the land of babylon to set her house there. Hence "the whore of babylon".

America is an extension of the Beast system. The colonial powers were the rise of the end times beast.
Colonialism was foretold in Rev 6's white horse prophecy.
The aftermath eg the world wars, bokshevism, holocoast were the red horse.
Now go and read the black horse prophecy of the scales. That is the capitalist era...and this is where america fits in. Notice it says "and do not harm the oil and wine".
Oil and wine are symbols of judaism.
Eg right after ww2, israel was created and has been protected largely by the US.

The whore sits on the beast and assumes control. The illusion being that thr Beast only allows the whore to take it to its destination. Once there, it destroys the whore.
That destination is the world government.

Now what you said about jerusalem being figuratively called Sodom and Egypt.
Dont forget that rev 11 takes place when the 2 prophets are dead (symbolising the death of islam and christianity, both of whom believe in Jesus). That is the antichrist period.
The antichrist period is also the fall of mystery babylon.
In zech 11 it says the worthless shepherd will desert the flock. The antichrist will create a new religion and to do so, require the fall of modern israel aswell as islam and christianity as they are today.
So obv rev 17 tells us the Beast will hate the prostitute.

Furthermore, the whore is not limited to israel. It is the collective cabal of jewish people dominating the world.
For example, the bolshevik revolution was the mass murder and looting of the EOC by fake athiest jews. Then after the collapse of the soviet union all that wealth was inherited by jewish oligarchs most of whom are connected to israel directly or indirectly.


Why do they control hollywood, the media and porn?
As for hating them....


Example, you know about cyrus the great? He defeated babylon and let jews return and rebuild judea.
Persia was the home of jewish ppl for 2500 yrs.
The greeks persecuted jews during the hellenistic era.
Romans massacred them in 70ad.

In the 7th century khosrou fought the byzantines for the holy land so he could gift it to jews.
The byzantines took it back and vowed to finish judaism completely.
Then muslims came and changed that order.

Go watch the movie 300..
See how jews lie about history. Betray the ppl who took pity on them.
Thats why i dont like em. The propaganda, lies, deceptive arguments etc.
Netenyahu summed up persia like this

"In the story of esther, the persians tried to wipe us off the map"
What gratitude to persians!!!
Actually in the story the persian king sided with jews. The guy haman who wanted them killed because he was an amalekite not a persian. The irony there is the israelites quite literally did wipe the amalekites off the map!!!

Israel and its supporters lie about every single thing. That is why i cant fking stand it or them.
Time is short and I apologize, in brief I don't allegorize the two witnesses, rather I think they will be flesh and blood and be resurrected literally. I also think the U.S. has influenced Israel more than they have us. To be sure Jerusalem has indeed killed more prophets that are recorded in the O.T. than any other nation known for such is a fact, as well as Jesus Christ Himself no less. I think the Jewish cabal thing is fair game too, but they have created a true monster bigger than them in regards to the wickedness they put out for the masses. I also think the Lord will return them in faith to Him in the manner of Ezekiel 38. Not to be rude, but time is not permitting much discussion for me at the moment lol.
 

SomeNOBODY0

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Also the 10 horns are ten Kings that gain power for one hour, and are given one mind to accomplish God's purpose in destroying the harlot, and of course surrender their power to the antichrist.
 

SomeNOBODY0

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Also I am of the persuasion that the black horse is something to do with hyper inflation as it comes to a days wage for a loaf of bread, and oil and wine are also luxury items that would get hit hard in a conventional famine.
 
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Time is short and I apologize, in brief I don't allegorize the two witnesses, rather I think they will be flesh and blood and be resurrected literally. I also think the U.S. has influenced Israel more than they have us. To be sure Jerusalem has indeed killed more prophets that are recorded in the O.T. than any other nation known for such is a fact, as well as Jesus Christ Himself no less. I think the Jewish cabal thing is fair game too, but they have created a true monster bigger than them in regards to the wickedness they put out for the masses. I also think the Lord will return them in faith to Him in the manner of Ezekiel 38. Not to be rude, but time is not permitting much discussion for me at the moment lol.
remember what it says
'by the wine of her adulteriess, the nations were led astray'
that inc america.

like i said, hollywood, the media, music, porn, its run by them.
every US president has to, before anything else...pay tribute to israel.

however it's also important to point out that the whore merely sits on the beast..she is given the illusion of power. She thinks she is in control. So of course from a higher perspecive the collective BEAST system that is in play, the one world government and the people ultimately behind it, are merely using the whore.

I think of the US as one of the heads of the Beast. Due to the reasons already given, america just cannot be the 'adulterness'. that is exclusive for the jewish nation.

As for the 2 witnesses, the prophecy begins when referring to the gentile period. all i know is the gentile period coincides with islam and christianity.
likewise the 1260 days refers tot he 1260 lunar yrs that muslims ruled over the temple mount, ending in 1948 (i know there's now a muslim waqf , but it's really the idf that holds power there). The same period is reserved for the 2 witnesses.
whatever it's meaning...however you choose to interpret this, you cannot deny that muslims have ruled the temple mount for EXACT 1260 lunar yrs and that becomes even more significant in light of Revelation 12 where the wilderness is mentioned.
ive talked about all of this in light of Zechariah 13. the true remnant of judea were the one third who survived and remained there, didnt leave. that one third basically was absorbed into the 'palestinian' identity. probably became christian and muslim. Rev 12 suggests to me that the same remnant found refuge in islam for 1260 yrs and when that period was over, satan made war on them.
'they believe in Jesus and obey God's commandments'.
in light of what is happening today, it makes sense.

it is so ironic that our guy Red here tried to talk up Gog & Magog as muslims..only for the Askhenazi origins to get exposed.

this sh** writes itself.
 
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Also the 10 horns are ten Kings that gain power for one hour, and are given one mind to accomplish God's purpose in destroying the harlot, and of course surrender their power to the antichrist.
i was talking about the 10 horns in Daniel 7as part of THE LEGS OF IRON/ROME eg the 10 emperors who ruled over the temple.
are you not aware of that chapter of history? its fascinating stuff...
look up 'the year of 4 emperors' and compare it to Daniel 7's

8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it.

the little horn here was Titus, who at the time, was the son of Vespasian who was the emperor at the time.


The 10 horns you're referring to, are connected with the '10 toes' of Daniel 2 which is the rise of the end times (Revelation's Beast of the Sea) Rome. the 'feet of iron and clay'.
 
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Also I am of the persuasion that the black horse is something to do with hyper inflation as it comes to a days wage for a loaf of bread, and oil and wine are also luxury items that would get hit hard in a conventional famine.

haha
follow it properly man

white horse - conquest
colonialism, this is the beginning of the rise of the end times Beast. all the colonial powers were former roman colonies. Hence 'the feet of iron and clay'.

red horse - death
the aftermath of colonialism, WORLD WARS, the Bolshevik Revolution, The holocoast, the creation of new nations and the bloodbaths that followed

so when we even think of the black horse, it is in the aftermath of the above events..
right after ww2, what happened? the creation of israel....
the capitalist vs communist era...and within that the protection of israel.
as i said, oil and wine are symbols of the jewish nation.

think im making it up?
research my friend

Chanukah is oil, Purim is wine

DO NOT HARM THE OIL AND WINE ie 'protect the state of israel at all costs'.
 
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He is a Christian Zionist. What do you expect? Those most hateful to Muslims see modern day Israel as some kind of savior to mankind while they routinely take the blood of innocents.

It's interesting how many trinitarians see modern day Israel as holy while the anti-christ will claim to be a prophet then god incarnate.. and these are the people who already believe such a thing can happen (man into God).
You know when the anti-christ appears they will bow immediately.


I seen a video this morning with a pastor in Florida freaking out because his church was empty while a masjid was full (it was jummah).

Kinda funny and sad at the same time. Perhaps this has something to do with their hate? Christianity dying out while Islam is on the rise?


Not much anyone can do about this, Islam was prophesied to cover the globe.

It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it. (9:33 Quran)
zechariah 11 directly tells us about dajjal.
these guys arent mistaken, they're purposely ignoring scripture when it suits them. The Quran told us that's what they do..and it's what they do.
pick and choose whatever fits their narrative.

still...
i sometimes wonder what the point even is.
when 9/11 happened and then the following Monday i was in class with a bunch of white kids and even the teacher questioning why muslims did that.
my first response was, quite literally
'the jews did that, not us' lmfao.

i still stand by it and it's been proven many times over...
but these ppl dont want to know.

they still think bin laden was legit and that he was really in Abottabad, Pakistan.
no body, no face...
are they bothered?

we have to give credit to the few who still stand up for the truth. they are out there for sure.
 

Nikōn

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Ah there it is, I couldn't find it in the short time I had alotted for phone stuff. I know you are dead set on it being Israel, but the United States has done so much more evil to the world, plus it's worth noting that Revelation also calls Jerusalem specifically Sodom and Egypt. It's clearly not a good place, which is like any city I've seen actually haha. Also, I can't swear that the harlot is the U.S., I'm just really tempted to think so and I waver at times. Seriously though, EVERYBODY hates Israel, and if I could imagine anybody waving around a gold cup full of abominations and getting the whole world drunk and committing lewd acts... It's the U.S. The disgusting pride, the turning away from God, and the giving over to complete lawlessness... We used to at least profess a belief in the Lord, and we used to not bring evil and woe to the whole world. Seems like a harlot to me. Israel is largely secular Jews from what I've been able to gather, and it sure seems like the Ezekiel 38 war will force them to consider the God they have abandoned.
Except Ezekiel is explicitly referring to Jerusalem, and "Revelation" is referencing Ezekiel explicitly and 'updating' Ezekiel's message in the context of the 1st century.



Ironically it was the Mormons who tried to shift the narrative to the USA.
 

SomeNOBODY0

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i was talking about the 10 horns in Daniel 7as part of THE LEGS OF IRON/ROME eg the 10 emperors who ruled over the temple.
are you not aware of that chapter of history? its fascinating stuff...
look up 'the year of 4 emperors' and compare it to Daniel 7's

8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it.
the little horn here was Titus, who at the time, was the son of Vespasian who was the emperor at the time.


The 10 horns you're referring to, are connected with the '10 toes' of Daniel 2 which is the rise of the end times (Revelation's Beast of the Sea) Rome. the 'feet of iron and clay'.
I am aware of that part of history and I think the little horn that uproots 3 has the remaining 7 give him power and authority. I think the little horn will be THE antichrist, and we will see it in the near future. Of course, I would gladly be wrong cuz that's gonna amount to a bunch of dead people. It's an interesting perspective with the riders on the horses, I waver on a historical or future occurrence of them because I simply don't know, He didn't tell me :). Also @Nikon, Ezekiel 38 Chronicles an invasion of Israel from the north, and the identity of Mystery Babylon the Great is, I feel, open to debate. We will all surely know when it happens and the merchants of the world weep for her :) I waver on the United States or somebody as yet unseen, but I think the iniquity the u.s. has brought everyone gives a person room to speculate at least :) I think of the U.S. as a harlot because my country used to claim to be followers of Christ, and now it is overwhelmingly hostile to Christ and His message.
 
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I am aware of that part of history and I think the little horn that uproots 3 has the remaining 7 give him power and authority. I think the little horn will be THE antichrist, and we will see it in the near future. Of course, I would gladly be wrong cuz that's gonna amount to a bunch of dead people. It's an interesting perspective with the riders on the horses, I waver on a historical or future occurrence of them because I simply don't know, He didn't tell me :). Also @Nikon, Ezekiel 38 Chronicles an invasion of Israel from the north, and the identity of Mystery Babylon the Great is, I feel, open to debate. We will all surely know when it happens and the merchants of the world weep for her :) I waver on the United States or somebody as yet unseen, but I think the iniquity the u.s. has brought everyone gives a person room to speculate at least :) I think of the U.S. as a harlot because my country used to claim to be followers of Christ, and now it is overwhelmingly hostile to Christ and His message.
It's unfortunate that you're probably a christian and should have texts like Daniel locked down and understood, but you just don't.
I found Daniel easy to understand once I read it and connected it with real history.

A few things
the 4 beasts of Daniel are past empires and relate entirely to the TEMPLE. Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.
the 4th beast was the roman empire.


Daniel 7
7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.
8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.


iron = the roman empire
iron/clay = the end times beast of the book of Revelation

ill make this simple

in chronological order, Daniel 7 goes like this
the roman empire and horns/little horn
the holy spirit (as in, a reference to all the prophecies to come in Revelation),
the end times beast/antichrist
the second coming

the bit in bold is important..
Jesus said he had many more things to say but they couldnt bear to hear them...so the spirit of truth/holy spirit would reveal them..hence the book of Revelation.
It's why the timeline in Matthew 24 goes from Jesus talking about the destruction of the temple, right to his second coming.
so christians tend to confuse these events and picture this taking place in the future, not aware that it was already fulfilled but Jesus didnt come...
that's because this gap..the last 1951 yrs...were part of Revelation's prophecies.

the only reference in the book of Daniel to the actual end times beast, is, as i said already, the 'feet of iron/clay'.

one trick a lot of christians play is to mix the ancient roman empire references and apply them to future events. it doesnt work that way.

The 10 horns in Daniel are as i said, the 10 emperors who ruled over the temple.
HOWEVER the 10 horns of Revelation's Beast, are a seperate prophecy with their own timeline/story..
Revelation doesnt talk of a little horn uprooting others..

pay attention
Rev 17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”


notice this is drastically different to Daniel 7.
also...important point

horns = rulers
but the actual antichrist is NOT a horn..he is simply the Beast/False prophet (that is the beast of the earth).

Revelation 13:11
The Beast out of the Earth
Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.

the horns reference here, is not about being a ruler, but is symbolic of the 'lamb' eg Jesus.

the antichrist
11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e] That number is 666.


not once is the beast of the earth, the false messiah, called 'the horn/a horn/little horn'.
the actual horns were gentile rulers who got to rule over the jewish temple in the past.

Revelation 17:12
The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

again, just to reiterate...
these 10 horns are not connected with Daniel's 10 horns which came from the Fourth Beast (the roman empire).
as much as you look to the future, most bible prophecies relate to past events and have already been fulfilled.







 

SomeNOBODY0

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It's unfortunate that you're probably a christian and should have texts like Daniel locked down and understood, but you just don't.
I found Daniel easy to understand once I read it and connected it with real history.

A few things
the 4 beasts of Daniel are past empires and relate entirely to the TEMPLE. Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.
the 4th beast was the roman empire.


Daniel 7
7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.
8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.


iron = the roman empire
iron/clay = the end times beast of the book of Revelation

ill make this simple

in chronological order, Daniel 7 goes like this
the roman empire and horns/little horn
the holy spirit (as in, a reference to all the prophecies to come in Revelation),
the end times beast/antichrist
the second coming

the bit in bold is important..
Jesus said he had many more things to say but they couldnt bear to hear them...so the spirit of truth/holy spirit would reveal them..hence the book of Revelation.
It's why the timeline in Matthew 24 goes from Jesus talking about the destruction of the temple, right to his second coming.
so christians tend to confuse these events and picture this taking place in the future, not aware that it was already fulfilled but Jesus didnt come...
that's because this gap..the last 1951 yrs...were part of Revelation's prophecies.

the only reference in the book of Daniel to the actual end times beast, is, as i said already, the 'feet of iron/clay'.

one trick a lot of christians play is to mix the ancient roman empire references and apply them to future events. it doesnt work that way.

The 10 horns in Daniel are as i said, the 10 emperors who ruled over the temple.
HOWEVER the 10 horns of Revelation's Beast, are a seperate prophecy with their own timeline/story..
Revelation doesnt talk of a little horn uprooting others..

pay attention
Rev 17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”


notice this is drastically different to Daniel 7.
also...important point

horns = rulers
but the actual antichrist is NOT a horn..he is simply the Beast/False prophet (that is the beast of the earth).

Revelation 13:11
The Beast out of the Earth
Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.

the horns reference here, is not about being a ruler, but is symbolic of the 'lamb' eg Jesus.

the antichrist
11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e] That number is 666.


not once is the beast of the earth, the false messiah, called 'the horn/a horn/little horn'.
the actual horns were gentile rulers who got to rule over the jewish temple in the past.

Revelation 17:12
The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

again, just to reiterate...
these 10 horns are not connected with Daniel's 10 horns which came from the Fourth Beast (the roman empire).
as much as you look to the future, most bible prophecies relate to past events and have already been fulfilled.
With all due respect, I merely think the 10 horns of Daniel are the same as Revelation, but I'm not married to the idea. The Revelation kings are certainly future, as they haven't been here to rule for an hour and give their power to the beast. I recognize that a lot of prophecies have been fulfilled, I also would bet a lot of them haven't. I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and I fear the stark warning in Revelation about adding to or taking away from the words of the book, so I am rather reluctant to speak certainly on many of the prophecies in the entire Bible unless the matter is certain. I'm rather open minded to who will play what role amongst the nations at the end, but I think the Ezekiel 38 war will happen before the end, as it said in the latter days. Regarding the beasts in Daniel and the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, I already knew the matter of Rome and it's descendants. It's the whole matter of the rock smashing the statue that has me out of my wits lol, I feel very strongly this will be in my lifetime, and I would be amazed if it was more than 10 years away.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@SomeNOBODY0 - I found this little dialogue from Lord of the Rings very illustrative:-


Good Morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out further than the brim of his shady hat.
"What do you mean?" he said. "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?"
"All of them at once," said Bilbo. "And a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain.

And in that context, this article is quite helpful:-
“Christians disagree on many doctrines and practices within the broader Christian faith. Not least of these is the nature of the events surrounding the return of Christ. Will there be seven years of tribulation? Is the Beast a specific individual, an institution, or merely symbolic? Does the fall of Babylon in the book of Revelation refer to the destruction of Jerusalem, Rome, or some other city? Will there be a millennial reign of Christ in the future. Has that reign started already?

Interpreting the Book of Revelation
Our understanding of the book of Revelation heavily influences the answers to these questions. However, different interpretations of Revelation are regularly a source of disagreement and, in some cases, division between believers. Unfortunately, many aggressively argue for their own position. Sadly, other views are rarely considered. Worst, some demonise those with different positions.

Historically, there have been four primary approaches to interpreting the book of Revelation. Below I will present a brief introduction to each. My aim is to encourage dialogue between Christians who disagree. Ultimately, I hope for greater understanding and acceptance between brothers and sisters with differing views.

1) Preterism
The Preterist approach to Revelation understands that most of the book was fulfilled in the decades immediately following the establishment of the church. Though the book of Revelation does briefly address the distant future, most notably the return of Christ and final judgment, the majority of the book is concerned with the original readers’ present reality. Therefore, from where we are sitting, Revelation describes much of what has already taken place.

According to the Preterist view, John used his apocalyptic style to encourage his Christian readers. They were facing trials and persecution, not unlike John himself (Revelation 1:9). According to Preterism, the book of Revelation is not as concerned with signs of the end times, as it is with the struggle and endurance of the 1st century church.

2) Historicism
When the Historicist interprets the book of Revelation, they look at the past, and draw parallels between John’s vision and significant historical events. In recent centuries, Historicists have drawn parallels between Revelation and events such as the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, the rise of the Papacy, the Protestant Reformation, and the expansion of the European Colonial Empires. Historicism is concerned primarily with tracking the church’s development over the centuries. To put it another way, the Historicist aligns historical events with what is described in Revelation.

Though several notable Reformers affirmed Historicism, its popularity has waned in recent decades. This decline is the result of a lack of consensus among Historicists. Several Historicists have made strong cases for their alignment of history and Revelation. But the very fact that so many strong cases differ has worked against the overall position.

3) Idealism
The Idealist sees an allegorical representation of the types of things or events believers may expect in the time between the inauguration of Christ’s kingdom and its consummation. The Idealist considers the book of Revelation to be made up of several parallel narratives. Each one tells the same story, but shifts the perspective. This story is of the struggle of the Christian church in the world, and God’s continued preservation of his people through it. It is also a story that expresses God’s judgment on sin, both in disasters with a limited scope, and through eternal death.

Idealism’s major concern is how Revelation addresses the relationships between the world, church and God. Idealism largely passes over the specific details in the book of Revelation. Instead, it focuses on the broad patterns and how they are repeated in history. These patterns also indicate what can be expected.

4) Futurism
The Futurist interprets the book of Revelation as literally as possible. This view leaves little room for symbolism. In fact, symbolism is only considered when something cannot be understood in a strictly literal fashion. Therefore, for the Futurist, the vast majority of Revelation has yet to take place. Events matching those described in the book have not occurred. After Revelation 3:22, the entire book is understood to refer exclusively to the events surrounding Christ’s return. Futurism is most concerned with the time and the signs immediately preceding the return of Christ, and the state of God’s people at that future point.

Christ will Return
As I conclude, I have one exhortation for my readers. Each of these positions has its strengths and weaknesses. Each position will lead its adherents to a different view on the events surrounding the Second Coming. We must not, however, allow our disagreement on interpretation to overshadow the central issue.
Whether we read Revelation as a Preterist, Historicist, Idealist, or Futurist, let us not be so committed to arguing our position that we disrupt the unity of Christ’s church. When we read the book of Revelation, let us all agree that Jesus Christ will return victoriously. It will be glorious. In the words of Shai Linne, “even if we disagree, true Believers hum with me: Come Lord Jesus, come quickly.”

 
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SomeNOBODY0

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Much obliged Red :) I have weighed each view for a good number of years, and I largely hold a futurist view, but I waver on some details. The important part that my fellow redeemed and myself can agree on is that Jesus Christ will, in fact, return :) also, I have seen you use that Lord of the Rings quote, and I have grown to appreciate it more with the fullness of time :)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@SomeNOBODY0 - I often imagine what the prophecies of the coming messiah (e.g. Isaiah 42) must have looked like to first century Jews. There is also a lot to unpack in an exchange that is recorded in Luke 4…


Jesus Rejected at Nazareth
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,​
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,​
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.​

In the above, Jesus closes the book midway through a verse that will have a future fulfilment….

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

4And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

…just as Isaiah 42 breaks after v9.

This is why I believe that many prophecies often have short (preterist), medium (historical), paradigmatic (idealist) and long term (futurist) aspects (and why I’m drawn to that bit of dialogue between Gandalf and Bilbo). Perhaps this has something to do with the reason why God gives prophecy - hope.

2 Peter 1​
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.​
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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@Red Sky at Morning I read your posts. It seems to me you simply got attached to the anti-muslim rhetoric in misinterpretations of OT prophecies. As such you've stretched prophecies where you now believe they are fulfilled various times over. why? cuz it's convenient for you.

This is what i mean when i diss you, you simply see whatever narratives you wish to see and cannot accept that you're simply wrong.

For example you certainly believe Isaiah 53 is about Jesus. The jews don't. In the 7th century when Jews established the Sassanian-jewish commonwealth state in Jerusalem, they applied this prophecy to a 'messiah figure' by the name of Nehemiah Ben Hushiel
they believed he would die (and he did) but that it would usher in the era of the DAVIDIC MESSIAH.

only Mohammad came didn't he?
and that's one chapter of history you don't know jack about.

You're referring to Isaiah 42 for example. The christians have their own interpretation (and ill explain why it is a stupid one) and the jews had their own.
So the jews expected the 'suffering servant' nehemiah ben hushiel to get killed.
the davidic conquerer would fulfill this


Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.
11 Let the wilderness and its towns raise their voices;
let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.
Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
let them shout from the mountaintops.
12 Let them give glory to the Lord
and proclaim his praise in the islands.
13 The Lord will march out like a champion,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.
14 “For a long time I have kept silent,
I have been quiet and held myself back.
But now, like a woman in childbirth,
I cry out, I gasp and pant.
15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills
and dry up all their vegetation;
I will turn rivers into islands
and dry up the pools.
16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
I will turn the darkness into light before them
and make the rough places smooth.
These are the things I will do;
I will not forsake them.
17 But those who trust in idols,
who say to images, ‘You are our gods,’
will be turned back in utter shame.


it is why the jews were a presence in Madina in the first place. I mean, i've pointed out before that SELA is a mountain of MADINA.
you just do not wish to give attention to the islamic side...but certainly there's a reason why this all happened in history, why the jews were in Madina at the same time of the jewish state in Jerusalem and when Nehemiah ben hushiel was killed.

In 617 CE, the Persians reversed their policy and sided with the Christians, probably because of pressure from Mesopotamian Christians.[10] It has been suggested that Nehemiah ben Hushiel was killed then.[1] Nehemiah ben Hushiel and his "council of the righteous" were killed along with many other Jews, some throwing themselves off the city walls. However, it does not appear that Jews were violently expelled from Jerusalem as Sebeos thought. Instead, Modestos’ letter seems to imply that further Jewish settlers were banned from settling in or around Jerusalem. A small synagogue on the Temple Mount was also demolished.[


this here is an example of how these events were shaped from the muslim pov. part of a hadith


The sub narrator adds, "Ibn An-Natur was the Governor of llya' (Jerusalem) and Heraclius was the head of the Christians of Sham. Ibn An-Natur narrates that once while Heraclius was visiting ilya' (Jerusalem), he got up in the morning with a sad mood. Some of his priests asked him why he was in that mood? Heraclius was a foreteller and an astrologer. He replied, 'At night when I looked at the stars, I saw that the leader of those who practice circumcision had appeared (become the conqueror). Who are they who practice circumcision?' The people replied, 'Except the Jews nobody practices circumcision, so you should not be afraid of them (Jews). 'Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.' While they were discussing it, a messenger sent by the king of Ghassan to convey the news of Allah's Apostle to Heraclius was brought in. Having heard the news, he (Heraclius) ordered the people to go and see whether the messenger of Ghassan was circumcised. The people, after seeing him, told Heraclius that he was circumcised. Heraclius then asked him about the Arabs. The messenger replied, 'Arabs also practice circumcision.' (After hearing that) Heraclius remarked that sovereignty of the 'Arabs had appeared. Heraclius then wrote a letter to his friend in Rome who was as good as Heraclius in knowledge. Heraclius then left for Homs. (a town in Syrian and stayed there till he received the reply of his letter from his friend who agreed with him in his opinion about the emergence of the Prophet and the fact that he was a Prophet. On that Heraclius invited all the heads of the Byzantines to assemble in his palace at Homs. When they assembled, he ordered that all the doors of his palace be closed. Then he came out and said, 'O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give a pledge of allegiance to this Prophet (i.e. embrace Islam).' (On hearing the views of Heraclius) the people ran towards the gates of the palace like onagers but found the doors closed. Heraclius realized their hatred towards Islam and when he lost the hope of their embracing Islam, he ordered that they should be brought back in audience. (When they returned) he said, 'What already said was just to test the strength of your conviction and I have seen it.' The people prostrated before him and became pleased with him, and this was the end of Heraclius's story (in connection with his faith). (Book #1, Hadith #6)

'conquerer' eg the Davidic conquerer, this is also in the context of the jewish messianicism in the region and in the immediate aftermath of the byzantine victory over the jews at the time.
The jews had massacred thousands of christians which led to the sassanians removing their military/financial support. The byzantines/heraclius then won back Jerusalem and the plan was to wipe out jews.
not an exaggeration, even jews attest to this fact

So, what did the Muslims do for the Jews?

  • Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth. The argument for it is double. First, in 570 CE, when the Prophet Mohammad was born, the Jews and Judaism were on the way to oblivion. And second, the coming of Islam saved them, providing a new context in which they not only survived, but flourished, laying foundations for subsequent Jewish cultural prosperity - also in Christendom - through the medieval period into the modern world.

Heraclius wanted every jew dead..and moreso because of their absolute certainty in the coming of the Davidic messiah, the conquerer etc. Heraclius saw the dream of this figure, from circumcised people and assumed he was jewish. as in this 'jewish davidic messiah the jews keep on going on about'.
Instead an arab prophet came..and he believed in Jesus.
Heraclius didnt know that Ishmaelites are also circumcised.


Why did this happen?
think about it, jews had this powerful collective belief in 2 messiah figures...the first one came, they won back Jerusalem, prophecy was being fulfilled and then Mohammad came.

It happened because of the collective guilt complex the jews have in them, on an unconscious collective level. That guilt complex is due to what they did to Jesus!! it's writen in Leviticus 26's punishments verses.

eg
You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it.
17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.


remember what Paul said
'by their (ie the jews) tresspass, the gentiles are reckoned'.
that is, that it's only due to their rejection of Jesus that the gentiles could be reckoned...and yet this also extends deeper when you consider the aftermath eg the collective guilt complex that cannot shake off, what they unconsciously manifested into the world.
Through their messianic beliefs in the 6th and 7th century, the jews used Persia (and arabs too for that matter) against Rome..and won.
Thousands of christians were massacred.

yet through all of this, the very promise that was made for Ishmael to Hagar and Abraham, came to fruition.
the jews planted the seed for themselves...and Mohammad came into the world.
by higher 'design' i suppose, but it is still fascinating history that you've never understood.

This then goes back to Isaiah 42's new song prophecy..
it is a prophecy of islam and the fulfillment of Ishmael's promise.



YET the response ive had from christians, which is a dumb response...is this
'no that is going to be fulfilled when Jesus returns'.
this just doesnt make sense because the return of Jesus means the redemption of Israel/jews.
Yet look how isaiah 42 ends

Israel Blind and Deaf
18 “Hear, you deaf;
look, you blind, and see!
19 Who is blind but my servant,
and deaf like the messenger I send?
Who is blind like the one in covenant with me,
blind like the servant of the Lord?
20 You have seen many things, but you pay no attention;
your ears are open, but you do not listen.”
21 It pleased the Lord
for the sake of his righteousness
to make his law great and glorious.

22 But this is a people plundered and looted,
all of them trapped in pits
or hidden away in prisons.
They have become plunder,

with no one to rescue them;
they have been made loot,
with no one to say, “Send them back.”

23 Which of you will listen to this
or pay close attention in time to come?
24 Who handed Jacob over to become loot,
and Israel to the plunderers?

Was it not the Lord,
against whom we have sinned?
For they would not follow his ways;
they did not obey his law.
25 So he poured out on them his burning anger,
the violence of war.
It enveloped them in flames, yet they did not understand;
it consumed them, but they did not take it to heart.


^^ these last 2 bits i've highlighted are especially connected to the Leviticus 26 punishments.

Verses 20-21 'make the law great' is not limited to the mosaic law. To make the LAW GREAT in the aftermath of Jesus, literally comes true through ISLAM which is Quranic law for ALL PEOPLE (unlike mosaic law which is only for israelites).
This adds so much more depth to the concept of 'fulfilling the law' via the second coming of Jesus.

The point is that the it is only due to/after the fulfillment of the New song prophecy, the jews are condemned fully...
clearly then these are events that would have to be fulfilled before the second coming of Jesus..and obv after his first period on earth.


ive also pointed this out various times with the following argument

-Paul said the PATRIARCHS (eg Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc) were living under Faith before the law of Moses.
-Paul said the christians of his time (mostly gentiles) were just like the patriarchs, righteous by faith without the law of Moses (that is because gentiles arent under the law of Moses).

yet the natural progression of this is that
-the israelites later went into egypt, lost the way and then came under the law of Moses
-the christians turned trinitarian through Rome, lost the way, lost Jerusalem and then a new law came that was for all people.

it makes the second coming of Jesus even more significant.

verse 25 of Isaiah 42 concludes that the jews did not take to heart the previous signs. In otherwords..even if islam completely spanked modern israel, it will not make them accept Jesus!!!
this is in stark contrast to the war you're projecting against israel where you think muslims will all get together, invade israel and then the jews will start believing in Jesus!!



ps
i know this post was wasted on you in advanced. im not trying to convince you. the mere fact this post exists means the idea exists on a metaphysical level. like minded people will absorb it, it'll come to them naturally.
 
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also on the above point...
the jews used the persians to attack the romans...East vs West. For more perspective read the Bahman Yast prophecies here


This is a late 6th century text. A propaganda peice forged by jews, with themes stolen from the book of Daniel, effectively shaping this grand 'GOOD EAST VS EVIL WEST/ROMAN' theme.

The result was the arrival of Mohammad and the period of islam.


The jews still expect their jewish messiah (not Jesus).
Using the 'good west vs evil east' message today, is all about reversing the polarity of the past.
this is why jews just blag shit to dopey xtians, all the anti-iran/arab messages inc this very thread...

@Red Sky at Morning you're so behind you think you're ahead.
again i know it's wasted on you.

The persians were smart enough to suss it out and turned their back on Jews. Yet the grand irony is, Islam saved jews (again, going back to what i posted earlier)

https://www.thejc.com/comment/opinion/so-what-did-the-muslims-do-for-the-jews-1.33597
So, what did the Muslims do for the Jews?

  • Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth. The argument for it is double. First, in 570 CE, when the Prophet Mohammad was born, the Jews and Judaism were on the way to oblivion. And second, the coming of Islam saved them, providing a new context in which they not only survived, but flourished, laying foundations for subsequent Jewish cultural prosperity - also in Christendom - through the medieval period into the modern world.


reversing the polarity whilst BETRAYING their past is why the false jewish messiah is coming next time...in fulfillment of Zechariah 11's WORTHLESS SHEPHERD and he will betray them the same way they betrayed their own past and the same way the persians betrayed them before.

it's pretty funny when i think about it.
 
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