Nations taking their places for Ezekiel 38 / Psalm 83 / Isaiah 17 / Jeremiah 49

[Red Sky at Morning]

…this is in stark contrast to the war you're projecting against israel where you think muslims will all get together, invade israel and then the jews will start believing in Jesus!!

For your first assertion, I think you need to read Ezekiel 38-39 again. For your second, there appears to be a good many Jews who will reject their messiah, and only a “remnant” will come to faith.

 

[AspiringSoul]

For your first assertion, I think you need to read Ezekiel 38-39 again. For your second, there appears to be a good many Jews who will reject their messiah, and only a “remnant” will come to faith.

weak response really.
you're sidestepping the whole thing just to give me this drivel of an argument.

many believed in Jesus already. i'm talking about the collective consensus of modern 'jewry', their beliefs, acts and the consequences.

 

[AmazingGrace]

@Red Sky at Morning I read your posts. It seems to me you simply got attached to the anti-muslim rhetoric in misinterpretations of OT prophecies. As such you've stretched prophecies where you now believe they are fulfilled various times over. why? cuz it's convenient for you.

Influenced by Greek schools of though, majority of the world today understands prophecies as something that happens once and it's fulfilled.

However, Jewish way of thinking understands prophecies as a pattern which is recapitulated. A prophecy having multiple fulfillments. And each fulfillment, each cycle, teaches something about the ultimate (and final) fulfillment.

Example: there were and will be many antrichrists, as we were warned, that prefigure The Antichrist.

Since Bible was written by Jews, what way of thinking should be applied? Should we look at them through eyes of their Jewish writers or through Greek worldview we inherited?

Hebrew Root: Types of Prophecy and Prophetic

 

[AspiringSoul]

Influenced by Greek schools of though, majority of the world today understands prophecies as something that happens once and it's fulfilled.

However, Jewish way of thinking understands prophecies as a pattern which is recapitulated. A prophecy having multiple fulfillments. And each fulfillment, each cycle, teaches something about the ultimate (and final) fulfillment.

Example: there were and will be many antrichrists, as we were warned, that prefigure The Antichrist.

Since Bible was written by Jews, what way of thinking should be applied? Should we look at them through eyes of their Jewish writers or through Greek worldview we inherited?

Hebrew Root: Types of Prophecy and Prophetic

Dont think the synagogue of satan has the best take on this one.

Daniel 7 is crystal clear ..ive already covered this. The 10 horns of the 4th beast and the little horn.
In revelation Beast of the Sea is connected with the feet of iron/clay (from daniel 2).

Read zechariah 13 and 14...
Two different events that are confused
Zech 13 is about the roman destruction of jerusalem in 70ad. Zech 14 is about the gog and magog invasion.

This guy mixes up the daniel 7/9 prophecies about titus with the gog and magog one. Thats due to his lack of understanding of Matthew 24 abd what Jesus was saying. Jesus wasnt giving a timeline. He was talking about 3 things...
The end of jerusalem in the near future (70ad), the second coning and the end of the World (eg the gog and magog prophecy).

You do realise the irony in your own point opens up the whole debate on Mohammed and islam too? Something i went in depth on in that same post. A lot of which the ave christian has no knowledge of, which is bizarre because it was the first time christianity lost the Holy land.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Forgot to add that i also previously proved that the Beast of the Earth(false prophet/antichrist) of Revelation is not 'a horn' or 'little horn' but is always called the beast. Eg "the 10 horns and the beast".
The 'horns' were gentile rulers of the beast who ruled over jerusalem during the temple era.
The antichrist being a false messiah has to be jewish, isnt a gentile eg "appearance like a lamb". The worthless shepherd of Zechariah 11.

I dont get how everyone seems to be confusing prophecies then backtracking to claim a prophecy can happen more than once.

What happens is, people interpret things hoewever they do and collectively also plant seeds eg law of attraction, manifest those type of things. However when people interpret wrong and are not worthy then they fa into collective unconcious guilt. As such even when they mean well, in their own mind, it manifests in the opposite way.
So this thread...it will come true,....israel be fucked...and its the fall of mystery babylon, not gog and magog.

Btw in his fantasy to claim muslims are gog and magog, it turned out that the khazar and ashkenazi are part of gog and magog.

My point is proven right each time.

 

[AmazingGrace]

Dont think the synagogue of satan has the best take on this one.

Daniel 7 is crystal clear ..ive already covered this. The 10 horns of the 4th beast and the little horn.
In revelation Beast of the Sea is connected with the feet of iron/clay (from daniel 2).

Read zechariah 13 and 14...
Two different events that are confused
Zech 13 is about the roman destruction of jerusalem in 70ad. Zech 14 is about the gog and magog invasion.

This guy mixes up the daniel 7/9 prophecies about titus with the gog and magog one. Thats due to his lack of understanding of Matthew 24 abd what Jesus was saying. Jesus wasnt giving a timeline. He was talking about 3 things...
The end of jerusalem in the near future (70ad), the second coning and the end of the World (eg the gog and magog prophecy).

You do realise the irony in your own point opens up the whole debate on Mohammed and islam too? Something i went in depth on in that same post. A lot of which the ave christian has no knowledge of, which is bizarre because it was the first time christianity lost the Holy land.

Sorry, but I see irony in that when you are shown how Jews understand prophecies (and we see patterns of prophecies played out even in Bible so I believe this is the correct approach) you call them synagoge of satan, but when it comes to prophecies themselves, you accept them. If you are so much convinced that Jews are synagoge of satan, why do you take their prophecies seriously at all? Because it suits your narrative? It really seems so.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I once had a very peculiar conversation with a Hare Krishna devotee. He really knew the Bible (well the parts he had focussed on) but his had nothing to do with Biblical Hermeneutics (I.e. the way you read scripture)

It’s a very interesting study if you ever get a spare few hours!!

Is Jesus a loaf? Hermeneutics for Dummies!

Great talk by Walter Martin! Literal and Figurative Language - how to avoid being dumb! About 25 minutes in, he addresses one of the most common errors people make when interpreting statements in the Bible. I think Transubstantiation is the most famous example of this...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

FROM THE EARLY DAYS OF CHRISTIANITY, believers have struggled to understand the mystery of the great harlot. Scholars and students alike have arrived at many different conclusions.

1: ROME
Roughly two hundred years after the book of Revelation was written, Lactantius, an early Christian writer from North Africa, believed the harlot was the city of Rome, which was still dominated by paganism at the time.1 Tertullian, Irenæus, and Jerome all used the term “Babylon” to refer to the Roman Empire.

2: ISLAM
A thousand years later, after Islam had arisen and swept much of the world under its control, many Christians began to wonder if it was the solution to the mystery of the great harlot. We find this view expressed in the writings Nicholas of Lyra, a French Franciscan monk often referred to as the greatest exegete of the fourteenth century.

3: THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
As the great division between Roman Catholics and Protestants swept across Europe, the Reformers dusted off the earlier, Romeas-Babylon view, modified it, and began pointing to the Roman Catholic Church. In 1522, Martin Luther’s good friend Lucas Cranach created the now-famous woodcut images that Luther would use so effectively in his propaganda war against the Vatican.

4: NEW YORK CITY / UNITED STATES
In more modern times, another position that has gained tremendous popularity is the view that the United States of America, or New York City, specifically, is harlot Babylon. In their book The Final Babylon: America and the Coming of Antichrist, coauthors Kreiger, McGriff, and Woodward claim that identifying Mystery Babylon “requires only a minute amount of analytical skills.

5: MODERN APOSTATE JERUSALEM
Another, less popular interpretation holds that this passage refers to Jerusalem. Most who espouse this view are preterists, meaning they believe this prophecy is already long past, having been fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70.

6: LITERAL BABYLON
Another interpretation is that the literal city of Babylon (the remnants of which are located fifty-three miles south of Baghdad, Iraq, in a town called Hillah) will be rebuilt in the last days. Although the ruins of this once magnificent city are little more than a tourist attraction today, those who hold this view believe that, in the days to come, a reconstructed Babylon will far surpass the ancient city’s former glory.

7: APOSTATE CHRISTENDOM OR INTERFAITH ECUMENISM
Another perspective holds that all segments of apostate Christianity will someday join together in the last days to form some kind of organized ecumenical body. The World Council of Churches, at least since its founding in 1975, has been the most common candidate – or culprit – that is expected to bring all of these apostate bodies together.

8: THE ILLUMINATI
For some, no umbrella is big enough unless it recognizes a full-blown, pan-historical, transnational conspiracy of exceedingly secretive, occult globalists, power brokers, and bankers whose wicked tentacles extend into every nook and cranny of the entire planet.

9: MECCA / SAUDI ARABIA
In more recent years, with many Christians increasingly embracing the idea of an Islamic Antichrist leading a Middle Eastern empire, some are now looking at the city of Mecca and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia as the last-days Babylon.

 

[Nikōn]

^ Yet as we know, none of the above have any relevance to 1st century Jews (Jesus and the early "Christians" were Jews remember).
Seeing that John of Patmos is calling out certain known references to his audience that he is writing to in his letters (which comprise of the "Book of Revelation"), none of those above are gonna be of any special interest to the audience he is writing to.
Not even Rome, despite the Roman Empire. Seeing that Rome had no sacred place in 1st century Judaism, it was just the great superpower of the 1st century.

Seeing that John Of Patmos obviously references Ezekiel 4-8, it is not a guess that he is referring to what Ezekiel is referring to (Jerusalem).
Unless you understand the Prophets, then you will not understand the New Testament, simple as that.

In case you don't understand English either, what it means by the phrase "whore of Babylon" is not "a whore called Babylon" nor "a whore from Babylon". It is referring to "Babylon's Whore". It is, in reference to Ezekiel 4-8, calling Jerusalem, Babylon's Whore.
It also textually relates to Jesus saying in Luke 19, among many other references:

And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold, saying to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of robbers.”
And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people were seeking to destroy him, but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people were hanging on his words.

From Matthew 23:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town,
that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari′ah the son of Barachi′ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”


All of the above nine speculations avoid the obvious intertextual references and clear teachings that Jesus actually taught about this, as evidenced above. There is no need to try and make a clear thing into a vague, abstract metaphor when it's answer is already very directly addressed.

The above nine do not address the answers that the "Book of Revelation" provide. If the Whore of Babylon is anything except for Jerusalem, then what is this "New Jerusalem" doing in Revelation chapter 21?
Simply, if the Whore of the Babylon is even teased to be one of the speculative nine above, then the "New Jerusalem" ceases to be a meaningful answer to all of the tribulation spelled out prior through the past 20 chapters of St John of Patmos' book.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

^ Yet as we know, none of the above have any relevance to 1st century Jews (Jesus and the early "Christians" were Jews remember).
Seeing that John of Patmos is calling out certain known references to his audience that he is writing to in his letters (which comprise of the "Book of Revelation"), none of those above are gonna be of any special interest to the audience he is writing to.
Not even Rome, despite the Roman Empire. Seeing that Rome had no sacred place in 1st century Judaism, it was just the great superpower of the 1st century.

Seeing that John Of Patmos obviously references Ezekiel 4-8, it is not a guess that he is referring to what Ezekiel is referring to (Jerusalem).
Unless you understand the Prophets, then you will not understand the New Testament, simple as that.

In case you don't understand English either, what it means by the phrase "whore of Babylon" is not "a whore called Babylon" nor "a whore from Babylon". It is referring to "Babylon's Whore". It is, in reference to Ezekiel 4-8, calling Jerusalem, Babylon's Whore.
It also textually relates to Jesus saying in Luke 19, among many other references:

And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold, saying to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of robbers.”
And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people were seeking to destroy him, but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people were hanging on his words.

From Matthew 23:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town,
that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari′ah the son of Barachi′ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”


All of the above nine speculations avoid the obvious intertextual references and clear teachings that Jesus actually taught about this, as evidenced above. There is no need to try and make a clear thing into a vague, abstract metaphor when it's answer is already very directly addressed.

The above nine do not address the answers that the "Book of Revelation" provide. If the Whore of Babylon is anything except for Jerusalem, then what is this "New Jerusalem" doing in Revelation chapter 21?
Simply, if the Whore of the Babylon is even teased to be one of the speculative nine above, then the "New Jerusalem" ceases to be a meaningful answer to all of the tribulation spelled out prior through the past 20 chapters of St John of Patmos' book.

Truthfully I have heard forceful cases made about each of the “Mystery Babylon” candidates and have lived through a series of trends where at least four of the ideas have been the most popular.

My suspicion is that there will eventually be a number 10 on the list that will incorporate attributes of all of these and add new aspects to them. At that point, the mystery will be revealed.

If history teaches anything here it is that sincere and analytical people have identified a subset of characteristics and confidently pronounced on them. The most recent trend I came across seemed to emerge during the ISIS years when Joel Richardson published “Mideast Beast”, popularising the idea of an Islamic Antichrist.

I don’t agree with that one either but I will have to wait till I get more time on my hands to say why…

 

[Nikōn]

Truthfully I have heard forceful cases made about each of the “Mystery Babylon” candidates and have lived through a series of trends where at least four of the ideas have been the most popular.

My suspicion is that there will eventually be a number 10 on the list that will incorporate attributes of all of these and add new aspects to them. At that point, the mystery will be revealed.

If history teaches anything here it is that sincere and analytical people have identified a subset of characteristics and confidently pronounced on them. The most recent trend I came across seemed to emerge during the ISIS years when Joel Richardson published “Mideast Beast”, popularising the idea of an Islamic Antichrist.

I don’t agree with that one either but I will have to wait till I get more time on my hands to say why…

But anyway, all but one of those 'cases' are out of synch with Old Testament and New Testament theology and the repetitive messages of the Prophets to the Israelites prior to Jesus. Jesus, in all truth, doesn't break away from their same message.
There is quite a strong polemical tone towards Jerusalem by many of the OT Prophets, could you show me where exactly I have, in your view, jumped ahead in the logical conclusion to what John of Patmos is referring to?

I would like to know, as every other listed option is in my view, fundamentally unable to be defended as a hermeneutic position. Or in other words, every other option on that list except for Jerusalem is unreconcilable with the text of both the Old Testament and the New Testament, period.
Most of the other options provided are purely ideological readings of the text that are discontinuous with the messages of the Prophets and the Torah. Jesus himself was demonstrably consistent with the Prophets and the Torah.



But as for me, I am filled with power,
with the Spirit of the Lord,
and with justice and might,
to declare to Jacob his transgression
and to Israel his sin.
Hear this, you heads of the house of Jacob
and rulers of the house of Israel,
who abhor justice
and pervert all equity,
who build Zion with blood
and Jerusalem with wrong.
Its heads give judgment for a bribe,
its priests teach for hire,
its prophets divine for money;
yet they lean upon the Lord and say,
“Is not the Lord in the midst of us?
No evil shall come upon us.”
Therefore because of you
Zion shall be plowed as a field;
Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins,
and the mountain of the house a wooded height.
(Micah 3:8-12)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But anyway, all but one of those 'cases' are out of synch with Old Testament and New Testament theology and the repetitive messages of the Prophets to the Israelites prior to Jesus. Jesus, in all truth, doesn't break away from their same message.
There is quite a strong polemical tone towards Jerusalem by many of the OT Prophets, could you show me where exactly I have, in your view, jumped ahead in the logical conclusion to what John of Patmos is referring to?

I would like to know, as every other listed option is in my view, fundamentally unable to be defended as a hermeneutic position. Or in other words, every other option on that list except for Jerusalem is unreconcilable with the text of both the Old Testament and the New Testament, period.
Most of the other options provided are purely ideological readings of the text that are discontinuous with the messages of the Prophets and the Torah. Jesus himself was demonstrably consistent with the Prophets and the Torah.



But as for me, I am filled with power,
with the Spirit of the Lord,
and with justice and might,
to declare to Jacob his transgression
and to Israel his sin.
Hear this, you heads of the house of Jacob
and rulers of the house of Israel,
who abhor justice
and pervert all equity,
who build Zion with blood
and Jerusalem with wrong.
Its heads give judgment for a bribe,
its priests teach for hire,
its prophets divine for money;
yet they lean upon the Lord and say,
“Is not the Lord in the midst of us?
No evil shall come upon us.”
Therefore because of you
Zion shall be plowed as a field;
Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins,
and the mountain of the house a wooded height.
(Micah 3:8-12)

Interestingly, the Micah passage you mention happened in 70AD, yet the events of Revelation have not yet had their ultimate fulfilment. Preterism is like a very strong pair of reading glasses which make close things intensify and distant things blurry.

 

[Nikōn]

Interestingly, the Micah passage you mention happened in 70AD, yet the events of Revelation have not yet had their ultimate fulfilment. Preterism is like a very strong pair of reading glasses which make close things intensify and distant things blurry.

Except that Premillennialism only elongates the gap between the fulfillment of events, to absurd lengths out of an unwillingness to concede on basic hermeneutic facts backed up by the intertextual references the texts themselves provide. In the case of John of Patmos' book, it is letters to different churches, so they must be of relevance to the churches in question.

Ok, so you're willing to make Micah about the destruction of the Second Temple. That only leaves us with a strange and indefinite idea of a 3rd and 4th temples. Verses like Matthew 24:15-16 also get bizarrely projected into a distant scifi future with all it's meaning lost.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Ok, so you're willing to make Micah about the destruction of the Second Temple. That only leaves us with a strange and indefinite idea of a 3rd and 4th temples. Verses like Matthew 24:15-16 also get bizarrely projected into a distant scifi future with all it's meaning lost.

Going back to the quote from Luke 4:-

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

(Isaiah 61:1-11; Matthew 2:19-23; Matthew 13:53-58; Mark 6:1-6; Luke 2:39-40)

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,​

​

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,​

​

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.​

The first question to you @Nikōn - was it?

My second question comes from the Isaiah 61 context that carries on mid verse from what Jesus said…

“…and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;​

​

3To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.​

​

4And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.​

My second question is this - have these subsequent verses also been fulfilled? If so, when?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The Iranian (Persian) people are far better than their leaders!

Iranians protest over power outage crisis, chant 'Death to Khamenei'

Some protests in Iran against power shortages turned political, with chants of "Death to the dictator" and "Death to Khamenei."

m.jpost.com

“There is a tug of war going on in the world’s next nuclear hotspot, and it’s partially political, but mostly spiritual.

While Iran’s Islamic leaders experiment with the atom, scores of their countrymen embrace its maker. There is a crisis taking place in Iran, and it’s far more reaching than the mainstream news media is reporting. Seventh Century Islam and state censored media have finally met their match in Christian satellite TV.

Have you heard that miracles, visions and dreams are occurring with regularity, causing throngs of Iranians to convert to Christianity? From approximately 500 believers in 1979, to several million today, Iran is the fastest growing evangelical population in the world. Christianity is burgeoning so rapidly that the rogue Islamic regime has instituted harsh policies intended to curb its growth.

Over the past couple of years, home churches in Iran have been closed, pastors imprisoned, and believers severely persecuted. Meanwhile, the modern marvel of satellite TV is being directed by the Holy Spirit to transform Iran into a Christian nation.”

The Prophecy of Elam, B. Salus

 

[AspiringSoul]

Sorry, but I see irony in that when you are shown how Jews understand prophecies (and we see patterns of prophecies played out even in Bible so I believe this is the correct approach) you call them synagoge of satan, but when it comes to prophecies themselves, you accept them. If you are so much convinced that Jews are synagoge of satan, why do you take their prophecies seriously at all? Because it suits your narrative? It really seems so.

after rejecting Jesus, what is their status? what does the book of Revelation call them?

post Jesus...and pre-second coming, this is what's said about them in Isaiah 42
“Hear, you deaf;
look, you blind, and see!
19 Who is blind but my servant,
and deaf like the messenger I send?
Who is blind like the one in covenant with me,
blind like the servant of the Lord?
20 You have seen many things, but you pay no attention;
your ears are open, but you do not listen.”
21 It pleased the Lord
for the sake of his righteousness
to make his law great and glorious.
22 But this is a people plundered and looted,
all of them trapped in pits
or hidden away in prisons.
They have become plunder,
with no one to rescue them;
they have been made loot,
with no one to say, “Send them back.”

23 Which of you will listen to this
or pay close attention in time to come?
24 Who handed Jacob over to become loot,
and Israel to the plunderers?
Was it not the Lord,
against whom we have sinned?
For they would not follow his ways;
they did not obey his law.
25 So he poured out on them his burning anger,
the violence of war.
It enveloped them in flames, yet they did not understand;
it consumed them, but they did not take it to heart.


besides if you're a christian, you know full well jews reject the new testament, why aren't you parading the jews on that matter?

you guys have consistently twisted the bible prophecies just to fit into an anti-islamic bent..and when i've told you guys those views are wrong, you're coming up with this argument? "jews say there can be more than one fulfillment of prophecy".

yet the irony there is, i've shown you how that played out with 7th century jewish messianicism and Mohammad/islam.

If people plant seeds in accordance to their own misunderstanding of scripture, it can still play into a higher prophetic theme.
Eg 'by their tresspass the gentiles are reckoned'. That is, the seeds the jews planted led to the fulfillment of God's promise concerning Ishmael (and that promise has not come to an end yet, it culminates in the Caliph of islam, the Imam Mahdi who is the 12th caliph of Quyash in fulfillment of the 12 princes promise in Genesis). Even if i'm dissing jews here, i've still understood that the very manifestation of the prophet of islam and the entire islamic era is out of the shadow of jewish messianicism. That does however work in accordance with the things Jesus spoke in John 16 on the 'spirit of truth'.

just think about how significant this is..

John 16

on the synagogue of satan
2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.
3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

by their tresspass the gentiles are reckoned
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

So when i say 'under the shadow of jewish messianicism' it means the dark cloud of false messianicism leads to the fulfillment of Leviticus 26's punishments theme.
The arrival of islam served that purpose essentially as a Gentile AND MORE IMPORTANT ISHMAELITE/ARAB religion, fulfilling 7th century jewish messianic desires on one hand, fulfilling the promise in Genesis on the other and also serving as a proof against the synagogue of satan.


we have christians like Red blagging it about Ezekiel's prophecies through blatant misinterpretations of Matthew 24, Zechariah 13/14, Daniel 7/9 etc...effectively imagining this idea of muslims as Gog & Magog, making war against Israel, for God to then kill those muslim armies etc.
What that does is, it shows the intense hatred he truely does have for muslims, whilst he parades around with this fake love for jews. literally he arse licks zionist jews due to his utter contempt for muslims.
Yet this collective desire, call it a seed that's been planted..
much like 7th century jewish messianic dreams...

it only enables the fulfillment of prophetic themes that work against you. The fall of mystery babylon.
i mean you guys have already painted the picture in your minds...so im sure something close to it will occur but i promise you it won't be the 'gog and magog' prophecy.


on that, another thing i have to repeat..
Red posted an image in the first post describing the names of the Ezekiel 38 nations

For example
Mesech, Tubal, Gomer = Turkey

except 'turkey' didnt exist back then. I don't really know what anatolia, asia minor etc were called, but this was a reference to people...who were later replaced with Turkic people after the fall of the byzantine empire.
Mesech, Tubal and Gomer became armenians, greeks etc...but amongst all that ASHKENAZI jews belong to this camp!1

Gomer (גֹּמֶר, Standard Hebrew Gómer, Tiberian Hebrew Gōmer, pronounced [ˈɡomeʁ]; Greek: Γαμὲρ, romanized: Gamér) was the eldest son ASHKENAZ


Askenaz had a brother called Scytha (say the Germans) the father of the Scythians, for which the Germans have of old been called Scythians too (very justly, for they came mostly from old Scythia) and Germany had several ancient names; for that part next to the Euxin was called Scythia, and the country of the Getes, but the parts east of the Vistule or Weyssel were called Sarmatia Europaea, and westward it was called Gallia, Celtica, Allemania, Francia and Teutonia; for old Germany comprehended the greater part of Europe; and those called Gauls were all old Germans; who by ancient authors were called Celts, Gauls and Galatians, which is confirmed by the historians Strabo and Aventinus, and by Alstedius in his Chronology, p. 201 etc. Askenaz, or Tuisco, after his death, was worshipped as the ambassador and interpreter of the gods, and from thence called the first German Mercury, from Tuitseben to interpret.

also

Ashkenaz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the Germanic tribes inc the Saxons and vikings are also Magog then...and we know they spread everywhere.

talk about an own goal lol.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

What do you make of Romans 11 @AspiringSoul ?

 

[AspiringSoul]

What do you make of Romans 11 @AspiringSoul ?

*sigh*
i cant always spoonfeed you my views in one post. I've covered this topic in my own posts in various threads a few times.

like i wrote in the earlier post
"by their tresspass the gentiles are reckoned"
so when i talk about synagogue of satan..and then i make references to John 16..it is apparent that darkness had to prevail from the jewish collective in order for islam to even come. I've then gone in depth talking about how 7th century jewish messianicism led to Mohammad and islam.
These are topic you just havent thought about and don't really know about. It's bizarre that you dont even know about the jewish revolt against Heraclius. That is key christian history in Jerusalem.

Did you never wonder how it was that no sooner did jews establish a jewish state, islam came? this is all in God's plan. Hence Isaiah 42's new song prophecy followed by God's condemnation of the jewish people.

HOWEVER
on the remnant...

i'll stick to what it says in Zechariah 13.
It says 1/3 would survive (the roman invasion)

The Shepherd Savior
7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord ismy God.’ ”


important note, verse 7 is obv a reference to Jesus. If you misinterpret these events with the 'Gog and magog' prophecy, go read Zech 14 and notice the stark contrast with Zech 13. Zech 14 is about Gog & Magog.

so..going back to the roman era and the destruction of jerusalem.

this one third survived...and are God's people.
They are bani israel and jewish by blood. The question is how did they survive roman persecution and remain in the holy land? i told yoy. they pretty much were absorbed into 'palestinian' identity and likely became christians and muslims.
However Revelation 12, just like Revelation 11, talks about that key number 1260 days (years of muslim rule in jerusalem, which is directly referenced at the start of Rev 11). The woman and her offspring are taken into the wilderness for 1260 days (again a reference to islam) where they are protected from satan.
When that period runs out, satan makes war against them.
Well why are palestinians being persecuted and killed? by the whore of babylon no less.

so when we're talking about the remnant, you're thinking of ashkenazi/white people and im thinking more than likely a collection of various people in the region esp amongst palestinians where the true remnant by blood and spirituality most likely already is.
'those who believe in Jesus AND OBEY GODS COMMANDMENTS'
and likewise in isaiah 42's condemnation of the jewish collective, it talks about God's plan to 'make His law great' (in light of a gentile era this literally does mean to give the gentile believers a law, just as the israelites had a law through Moses).
Again, all references to a strong islamic backstory to this 'remnant'

So, going back to Romans 11..a key point, you have the TRUE jews..and the collective false jews.
You have the prophets and saints...you have Jesus etc. You had the bloodline jews who became christian. So even when the bible condemned the jews, there were a true remnant amongst them.

And remember We took a covenant from the Children of israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).
(سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #83)


As for the redemption of israel?

Surah 17 (al isra, the 'night journey' of Mohammad to Jerusalem, hence it is a jerusalem centric chapter of the Quran).
104. And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.


still one side i havent yet covered (well i have, just not here) is that the bible also refers to jews who will finally accept BELIEF IN JESUS AS THE MESSIAH before the second coming.
This no doubt occurs during the fall of mystery babylon.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Far be it for me to spoonfeed anyone @AspiringSoul

Romans 11 without commentary:-

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[AspiringSoul]

what exact point are you trying to make?