Is Jesus the "BEGOTTEN" Son of God?

Lisa

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This is how Evangelical Christians operate people of VC. They can't come up with proper rebuttals to their contradicting NT verses and then put the blame on the OP. Unless you guys are redefining what the words "ransom" and "begotten" mean you guys are stuck in a pretty sticky situation and making sense of it you'll have to jump from hula hoop to hula hoop. Good luck with your mental and verbal word redefining gymnastics lol.

I dare one of you intellectually inept Evangelical Christians to bring forth a logical reasoning to the verse in the op. Please enlighten me.
Haha, but adding sweetheart to your posts is a proper rebuttal? Lol! :rolleyes:
Your attempt at trying to make the verse say something different by casting doubts on word meanings is pretty funny. The verse stands as is. God sent His only Son to save us, because He loves us and all we have to do is believe, too simple for you?
 






Daciple

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Scimitar, hasn't been on the forums here since he was banned so I have no clue what you're talking about.
Then you need to take a reading comprehension class, I said you are as intellectually dishonest as Scimitar was. He would do the same ridiculous things you are doing, make a statement, have someone rebut it, then act as tho no one has discussed the topic, then crown himself champion. You are intellectually dishonest, proper rebuttals have been made you either dont read them, or act as tho people havent addressed your topics and restate the same thing over and over. Just like you did ONCE AGAIN in this last post.

Good thing I have come to understand fully that you are not ever going to partake in a compelling or an intellectually honest discourse and simply use you as a tool to preach the Gospel and expand upon Doctrine within Christianity. Thank you for being a tool Kung Fu!!!

I'll start addressing you're rebuttal as soon as you bring one to the table
Here is that intellectual dishonesty again, I have clearly made a rebuttal, an intellectually honest person would go line by line over what I have written and explain what parts they agree or disagree with and why. You hardly address anything written in rebuttal to your premise, in my opinion it is the sign of a weak minded person to act as tho others arent giving arguments against their ideology and write out counterpoints, but instead claim nothing has been written that give an explanation of why you are incorrect in your assumptions. If thats over your head, you are weak minded because you wont address the counterpoints given to you and instead make this ignorant statement that no rebuttal has be given when the whole world can go back and read the multiple ones given. Dont be so weak minded Kung Fu.

Because Issac is the actual literal son of two human parents and therefore using the word "begotten" actually makes sense (you making that statement shows that you have no idea how the natural world actually works).
Yet again you either are willfully ignorant or seriously are not intelligent enough to understand the POINT of what I wrote, I dont expect you to actually address the POINT I was making, I believe at this time after many attempts to see if the possibility of us having an honest exchange was plausible, it has become quite obvious you will never actually allow such a thing to take place. You will continue with your constant ignoring of what has been stated, regurgitating the same old talking points and throw in a bunch of personal insults.

If you could see past your personal disdain for me and my Faith, you could have seen that the POINT I was making was that Issac cant be the ONLY begotten (part of the Scripture you quoted) if there were more than one son of Abraham. You dont address that and continue to talk about sex and procreation even after I give an in depth explanation of the use of that word. Jesus was begotten from the dead, ignore that again...

The word in Koine Greek used is translated into "unique or special" and not "begotten". Begotten is an interpolation. And if you believe it's not show me from your oldest Bibles where the word "begotten" (which is a word used for HUMAN reproduction) is?
Once again you clearly are not reading what I write, proving you are either incapable of having a conversation with intellectual honesty or just can not get past whatever personal hatred you have towards me or my faith to read and comprehend what I write to you. Its funny you say this, when I literally wrote:

What is the word in Greek that is translated begotten in English?

3439 [e]monogenē μονογενῆ ,only begotten

3439 monogenḗs (from 3411 /misthōtós, "one-and-only" and 1085 /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).

It literally means one of a kind, only of its class, unique, none other like it.
Wow, look at that, I already state this in my rebuttal to you that you said I never made. Go back and read it and address it if you want to be intellectually honest, or do what you always do, ignore it and make the claim no one has rebutted you and prove to all how what I say about you being intellectually dishonest is correct...

You using the word "logical" is quite laughable. Please don't ever use that word in my presence you intellectually inept polytheist.
Lol as tho what you say has any bearing on what I will state in the future, if you had logic then you wouldnt have restated almost verbatim what I wrote in my rebuttal to you, in your response towards me. There is zero logic behind saying someone isnt addressing your point then stating verbatim their point in rebuttal to you, in your response to how they arent rebutting you. Kung Fu for the Anti-Logic win!!! Good show ol chap!!!
 






Kung Fu

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Then you need to take a reading comprehension class, I said you are as intellectually dishonest as Scimitar was. He would do the same ridiculous things you are doing, make a statement, have someone rebut it, then act as tho no one has discussed the topic, then crown himself champion. You are intellectually dishonest, proper rebuttals have been made you either dont read them, or act as tho people havent addressed your topics and restate the same thing over and over. Just like you did ONCE AGAIN in this last post.

Good thing I have come to understand fully that you are not ever going to partake in a compelling or an intellectually honest discourse and simply use you as a tool to preach the Gospel and expand upon Doctrine within Christianity. Thank you for being a tool Kung Fu!!!



Here is that intellectual dishonesty again, I have clearly made a rebuttal, an intellectually honest person would go line by line over what I have written and explain what parts they agree or disagree with and why. You hardly address anything written in rebuttal to your premise, in my opinion it is the sign of a weak minded person to act as tho others arent giving arguments against their ideology and write out counterpoints, but instead claim nothing has been written that give an explanation of why you are incorrect in your assumptions. If thats over your head, you are weak minded because you wont address the counterpoints given to you and instead make this ignorant statement that no rebuttal has be given when the whole world can go back and read the multiple ones given. Dont be so weak minded Kung Fu.



Yet again you either are willfully ignorant or seriously are not intelligent enough to understand the POINT of what I wrote, I dont expect you to actually address the POINT I was making, I believe at this time after many attempts to see if the possibility of us having an honest exchange was plausible, it has become quite obvious you will never actually allow such a thing to take place. You will continue with your constant ignoring of what has been stated, regurgitating the same old talking points and throw in a bunch of personal insults.

If you could see past your personal disdain for me and my Faith, you could have seen that the POINT I was making was that Issac cant be the ONLY begotten (part of the Scripture you quoted) if there were more than one son of Abraham. You dont address that and continue to talk about sex and procreation even after I give an in depth explanation of the use of that word. Jesus was begotten from the dead, ignore that again...



Once again you clearly are not reading what I write, proving you are either incapable of having a conversation with intellectual honesty or just can not get past whatever personal hatred you have towards me or my faith to read and comprehend what I write to you. Its funny you say this, when I literally wrote:



Wow, look at that, I already state this in my rebuttal to you that you said I never made. Go back and read it and address it if you want to be intellectually honest, or do what you always do, ignore it and make the claim no one has rebutted you and prove to all how what I say about you being intellectually dishonest is correct...



Lol as tho what you say has any bearing on what I will state in the future, if you had logic then you wouldnt have restated almost verbatim what I wrote in my rebuttal to you, in your response towards me. There is zero logic behind saying someone isnt addressing your point then stating verbatim their point in rebuttal to you, in your response to how they arent rebutting you. Kung Fu for the Anti-Logic win!!! Good show ol chap!!!
Typical. Types a lot but brought nothing of substance in actually addressing the op. You playing this "intellectually dishonest" nonsense and excuse won't help your case polytheist.

There's no way you can work around the words "ransom" and "begotten" unless you redefine what those words mean and then twist them into a pretzel in order for them to make a little bit of sense.

When you throw the word "begotten" and "ransom" out the window then you can talk about Jesus being the son of god and loving mankind. Until then you have no case.
 






Kung Fu

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Haha, but adding sweetheart to your posts is a proper rebuttal? Lol! :rolleyes:
Your attempt at trying to make the verse say something different by casting doubts on word meanings is pretty funny. The verse stands as is. God sent His only Son to save us, because He loves us and all we have to do is believe, too simple for you?
The adults are talking sweetheart go play with the little kids. If you really want to have your voice heard respond to the op and tell me what it means by ransom and begotten?
 






Lisa

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I did respond to the op, and daciple is now on the Kung Fu merry go round...
 






Kung Fu

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I did respond to the op, and daciple is now on the Kung Fu merry go round...
Re-post it and if it's logical and actually about the op I'll respond if not, I'll just ignore it. You have a habit of making useless posts addressing the poster rather than the post.
 






Forever Light

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I actually agree with you.
Glad to hear we are able to agree about this :)
However, the Christians on here are so idiotic that they will fight you tooth and nail that the word "begotten" is the correct word. If the word begotten is used it implies that God literally had sex with Mary, which is absolutely ridiculous and stupid
Agreed. All the more reason why this error needs to be pointed out to them (as lovingly as is possible) so that it might get through to them and that they then might consider.
but I expect that from the Christians on here lol.
They have all been wrongfully taught in church to use that word and so they have believed it to be the right word. Quite possibly, without ever having really thought about it and what the word "begotten" would imply to others. Those verses are typically oft-repeated in churches and so, most churchgoing Christians have heard them read and verbally repeated, for years and years.
(That is what happens in organised religions and is one of the reasons why organised religions are so dangerous and wrong).

So now, instead of being willing and open to the idea that it might be a misinterpretation, they are closed to it (and thus unable) to see and admit the possibility that they have been misguided and wrongfully taught and so are choosing instead to blindly cling to the doctrine that they have been taught by their organised religion (i.e. church). And if someone has come here to defend their "religion" because they believe theirs to be the "right one" (?) then all the more so. For some, it is so strong that they (their ego "self", actually) will therefore fight you tooth and nail to defend even an obviously faulty position, at almost any cost.

Human nature (ego) always does this. It is standard operating procedure for "the ego" (the human "self") of a person, to not want to admit ever being mistaken, including admitting the possibility of having been "duped" or misled by others or their organised religion (due to "its" - the ego's self-righteousness and pride) or to accept correction when shown it. This is standard, and it pretty much happens to everyone (until such a time if/when it is "seen" and if the person can then also succeed in overcoming it).

It can be very difficult for people to let go of long held customs and beliefs, even when they are shown to have been wrong ones.
People's ego's usually won't let them admit even to themselves about being wrong, never mind admitting to others on a public forum.
But, hopefully in their quieter moments, there is always the possibility that they may consider what has been shared with them.

It is good therefore to keep pointing it out, because the truth about this needs to be accepted.
If it helps, I grew up as a Christian and now I know and have accepted this.
So, don't give up hope.
And always try to remember, that a little bit of love can go a long way.
Peace be upon you
 






Forever Light

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Words of Wisdom 3
Do not say that the struggle gains nothing,
and that the labour and the wounds are in vain,
and that the enemy does not faint or fail, and
that as things have been, they remain;
for whilst the tired waves seem to be vainly
breaking and seem no painful inch to gain;
far back through creeks and inlets making,
comes silent flooding in the main. -
[TWHOFTF]
 






Kung Fu

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Glad to hear we are able to agree about this :)

Agreed. All the more reason why this error needs to be pointed out to them (as lovingly as is possible) so that it might get through to them and that they then might consider.

They have all been wrongfully taught in church to use that word and so they have believed it to be the right word. Quite possibly, without ever having really thought about it and what the word "begotten" would imply to others. Those verses are typically oft-repeated in churches and so, most churchgoing Christians have heard them read and verbally repeated, for years and years.
(That is what happens in organised religions and is one of the reasons why organised religions are so dangerous and wrong).

So now, instead of being willing and open to the idea that it might be a misinterpretation, they are closed to it (and thus unable) to see and admit the possibility that they have been misguided and wrongfully taught and so are choosing instead to blindly cling to the doctrine that they have been taught by their organised religion (i.e. church). And if someone has come here to defend their "religion" because they believe theirs to be the "right one" (?) then all the more so. For some, it is so strong that they (their ego "self", actually) will therefore fight you tooth and nail to defend even an obviously faulty position, at almost any cost.

Human nature (ego) always does this. It is standard operating procedure for "the ego" (the human "self") of a person, to not want to admit ever being mistaken, including admitting the possibility of having been "duped" or misled by others or their organised religion (due to "its" - the ego's self-righteousness and pride) or to accept correction when shown it. This is standard, and it pretty much happens to everyone (until such a time if/when it is "seen" and if the person can then also succeed in overcoming it).

It can be very difficult for people to let go of long held customs and beliefs, even when they are shown to have been wrong ones.
People's ego's usually won't let them admit even to themselves about being wrong, never mind admitting to others on a public forum.
But, hopefully in their quieter moments, there is always the possibility that they may consider what has been shared with them.

It is good therefore to keep pointing it out, because the truth about this needs to be accepted.
If it helps, I grew up as a Christian and now I know and have accepted this.
So, don't give up hope.
And always try to remember, that a little bit of love can go a long way.
Peace be upon you
You're right.

Peace be upon you as well brother.
 






rainerann

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Every dictionary that you look up the word "begotten," will tell you that the root word of begotten is "beget." In Old English, this word would be used to say that you caused something to happen in a generic way. We don't use this anymore so it is a little difficult to understand and describe.

The word is derived from the prefix be- and the root word get, which means that something becomes your possession. Attaching the prefix be- was used in Old and Middle English to communicate something similar to the use of I and it was a way of making the verb possessive of the noun.

So beget is basically the same as I get, or he gets, or she gets. In the same way, be-came means that the noun in the sentence has experienced a change in some way. "Even though he was still young, he became king of all the land."

The floor be-neath James was solid. Again using the prefix be- is a way of essentially creating possession for James. It is describing a relationship between the floor and James that allows us to understand that the location of the floor is relevant to James. The location of the floor is not relevant to the floor which is an inanimate object.

This is a generic way of creating a relationship between the noun and something else that we usually use an adjective or adverb for today because the English language has grown to include a different way to modify words. We will often describe someone as a father of something because it means they are the one who originated something or they are the point of origin from which something began. Galileo is the father of modern science. Everyone knows that this doesn't mean that science is the product of procreation.

If we look at historical comparisons, it becomes clear that there was a common understanding that the word begotten was not referring to procreation, but that the word was initially used to demonstrate a point of origin. It is initially a generic way to create a relationship between a verb and a noun that is used to describe the process of procreation because of this, not the other way around. To use the term begotten to describe procreation is to create a relationship between the verb and the noun. That doesn't mean that is the definition of the word or that the word was created as a means of describing this relationship.

This is true of almost every word in every language in the world and it is the reason that translation becomes a subject of debate. Words do not often have a static meaning. Language is a collection of parts that can be comparable to a bag of tools. This is why the dictionary adds new words every year because it is always possible to create new words or to use an old one in a new way.

We know that begotten was used to describe wisdom when translating the writings of Plato. It is clear to see that a relationship is being created between the verb and the noun. That is the function of the prefix be-. That is the reason that the word begotten can be used to describe something other than procreation because it was never a word that was created for this static meaning.
  • Are they not all the works of his wisdom, born and begotten of him?

    Symposium Plato
So if we say Jesus is the begotten son of God, we are saying that God is the point of origin for Jesus. We are saying that procreation was not required for Jesus to exist. He was begotten by God or that God caused him to exist in the form of a man. It is a way of creating possession for the process which caused Jesus to exist. This would be similar to the Greek definition of unique, because saying something is unique is also a way of demonstrating possession. Like if we use our common way of showing possession with an apostrophe for an example. Mary's bike was the color blue. The apostrophe creates a way of saying that the bike is unique because it belongs to Mary and it is the color blue which is a common way to describe it.

There is evidence that this is what the text is trying to say because at no point has anyone ever derived a conclusion that the Bible suggests that Jesus was not born by immaculate conception. If using the word begotten suggested procreation requiring a male and female, there would be evidence of this causing people to question whether the Bible teaches this. If the word ever had a static meaning that was defined as requiring procreation, the teaching of the immaculate conception would have immediately become questioned as soon as the King James Bible was released in 1611. This has never been the case. So the way we determine the definition of the word begotten is affected by this evidence as well.

In fact, the teaching on immaculate conception has never been questioned in the 400 years that the Bible has been translated into English. So to say, " His only begotten Son," was only a way to create a relationship between God and Christ that designates God as a point of origin for His existence; or, that God has unique possession of Christ. It has nothing to do with procreation.
 






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@Daciple
See the way I reply, it is easier to respond in points but when people dissect posts, that makes me not want to reply because it makes it difficult for me to quote.

1) I got that idea from reading the general contents of your posts but that's also because we cross paths in these type of threads... but if that isn't true in your case, i'm sorry and take that comment back. However i've seen you exhibit that same trollish type of behaviour when we've exchanged words before and also see it in this thread.
Just to make things clear, there is nowhere near as much criticism of christianity from muslims either here or anywhere else.

2)
when muslims here criticise christian beliefs, we do so based entirely on theological grounds that can be mutually agreed upon. What i mean by that is, we don't lie about your beliefs, we question your beliefs as you present them to us.
It's not the same with a lot of christians on here..and all over online.

'you worship a moon god derp derp'
'your god is lucifer/baal'
'you are of the devil'
one girl told me 'who was a liar from the beginning? you are sons of satan'

that's the sort of shite i've had to put up with for a long time and it's always on repeat. Even if we show them our monothiestic beliefs (the topic of tawheed) they will just say 'nope, derp derp moon god/satan'


3) Oh yes, we sure do, but its amazing how the Muslims dont seem to care or defend him when he comes back with his constant fake accounts lol Pot meet Kettle...

Who are you talking about? im not aware of anyone with fake accounts who specifically joins this forum to silently attack christianity or promote islam with fake stories like tanya has done.

4) Unlike Muslims I am comfortable to make this concession because it is a reality and it definitely means NOTHING to Christianity nor does it in anyway affect my Faith, not in the slightest.

That's how I feel too..but again this was all only brought up in response to something @rainerann said so don't quote me out of context and then bang on about how we're boasting because we're weak. I was responding to someone who is celebrating the apparent 'decline of islam'.

"This is the same ridiculous nonsense always given to ANY type of conversion from Islam to Christianity"

I'm one of those who firmly believes quality>quantity. There are hadith prophecies which say one day our number will be like grains of sand on the shore, but we'll be pitiful/pathetic due to the love of the world. Many say 'mosques will be full but knowledge will be scarce'
So basically I don't brag about conversions to islam. Youtube is littered with a lot of personal testimonies though, you cannot deny that.

search for 'convert to islam story' on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=convert+to+islam+story
absolutely packed with real testimonies.

search for 'convert to christianity story'
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=convert+to+christianity+story
these videos, most of them are 80s movie productions...where is chuck norris and van damme in this shit? and they always present the worst example of islam in this.

look mate, one of my old friends from high school was a roman catholic pakistani, no one gave him trouble, it depends on the people. im aware of one guy in bradford who became christian and his home was vandalised, by yobs/hooligans, those types are not really practicing muslims anyway.

These fake testimonies they always have to attack islam because that's the primary goal, who sponsors them?


Also what I was saying was about Ergun Caner as just one example. The christian who talked about ergun caner said that he was making it more difficult for legit christians to discuss islam because effectively people will choose ergun caner's style more (he didnt say those words but its what he meant) ie ergun caner appeals to people's egoistic bs.
that same old binary crap 'islam evil, we good...we love, them hate' etc.
BUT the majority of christians believe what ergun caner and others say about islam. they believe in the propaganda.
of course there are more honest christians and ive had the pleasure of talking to some online before. but im talking about the basic theological dishonesty ive seen all over this forum where this type of ergun caner material is promoted as true.

Again im only bringing this up because you people seem to wax lyrical about how millions are leaving islam, threatened by stones and swords and how the holy spirit guided them, how all christianity is love and all islam is hate and that type of binary bs.


Can we link dozens of stories, and real life videos of Muslims who have converted then get stoned, murdered and the like for rejecting Islam and accepting Christ?

Can you? don't go showing me examples of Isis or some shit like that Show me how it happens in every day Pakistan for example. I just showed you 2 like for like youtube links, compare and contrast, it's fairly obvious which side is being honest.


The only time it gets cringeworthy is when people wrongly say xyz celeb has become Muslim when it isn't true. However many have..and im not talking about hollywood but there are so many examples of people who became muslim and we didnt make a big deal about it
for example 3 (out of many more) football players who QUITELY became muslim
Theirry henry, frank ribery, anelka. I guess in football it's not a big deal because a lot of the black/african players are muslim like Paul Pogba (shocked me, actually) but these examples are just routine, no big stories about them from muslims. it's mentioned. we don't use them to trash christianity.

Then you have people like yusuf estes or hamza yusuf, timothy winters, sheikh eesa and many more of those types..they're all good people who don't talk about Christianity most of the time.

However by you presenting me with examples of how christians must suffer in the latter days, in todays world this applies to muslims just as much if you observe what's happening. Don't forget we're the colonised people now, not you.


4)

Again i never bragged about rates of conversion but talked about how she wanted islam to disappear but clearly that hasn't happened despite all the propaganda against islam in our era.

2 Thes 2:1
He's talking about the anti-christ, link it to Matthew 24 and Jesus is talking generally about the whole world. You can't claim what Jesus said, aimed at jewish people was exclusively meant to be about your version of christianity in our time it applies to everyone who believes in these same themes. Ie Jesus is the messiah and then there is the anti-christ.

Actually come to think of it, in Revelation 11 the 2 witnesses/prophets story, to me it is not literal but symbolic of 2 religions who believe in Jesus Christ. 2 gentile religions that trample over the temple mount.
This is symbolic of christianity and islam. They are both attacked by the anti-christ.

No matter how you wish to understand my religion, it is my belief and the belief of muslims clearly that Jesus is going to return, descend and kill the dajjal.
dajjal is described as blind in his right eye and this matches Zech 11's prophecy of the worthless shepherd. God says 'iw ill raise up a worthless shepherd in THIS LAND' meaning he is going to be a fake jewish messiah.


5) I for one would if it was forced upon others by way of Religious Theocracy as is the case with Islam. Also in case you missed it the New Testament is replete with passages discouraging Jewish Religious obligations being forced upon others...


Jesus said
So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

There's a beat missing here
I too am against enforced rules in the modern context. However as you're not a muslim you cannot really appreciate the background behind things like the hudood ordinances in pakistan and the people who brought it about.

Basically, it is like how in the old testament you had various prophets appear but you also had false teachers meddling with things without understanding.

The Quran mentions the divine revelation along with the hikmah/wisdom
ie Jesus was given the Gospel AND the hikmah.


In islam, it is obligatory from our spiritual perspective but it isn't meant to be forced on us. There are exceptions depending oh the context and hikmah also has to be applied.
For example i had a mate who was a really good guy, heart of gold and all that, became a drug addict, a drinker, gambler, all of that...
got kicked out of his home by his parents..they would not acknowledge him.
Would anyone want to enforce islam on him? can't be done, his parents tried, it made him worse.
ive seen it happen with my cousin on a smaller scale but he rebelled because of his strict upbringing. there are ways to understand the rules within the context of where you're living.
i've seen countless examples of strict parents keeping their daughters on lockdown only for those girls to become emotionally unstacle and jump on the first dick that swings their way.
You have to be wise about enforcing things.

So going back to pakistan and the taliban as examples. Basically it goes like this
during the colonial era the majority of muslims in the indian subcontinent were sunni. Then wahabism rose in arabia and it challenged a lot of muslims in india. One group rose up who beleived in jihad as an obligatory act.

now here's the thing...in the Quran jihad was obligatory but in the context those verses specifically were addressed to THOSE muslims in thattime/place ie serving the prophet SAW himself. It is vastly different in this age. We have a lot of corrupt governments so how do we decide who to fight again anyway? is it wise ie like taking out saddam hussein and gaddafi?

Another muslim scholar who had a lot of influence, believed it was better for muslims to fix our issues before we go about trying to engage in a war we would most likely lose because we're sinful.
do you get the difference? now out of the 2 groups, which group became dominant in the military eventually? it was the former group..they did engage in their jihad and lost.
They refer to the latter scholar as a 'british agent' (he wasn't).
He acted on wisdom, they acted on pride under the banner of islam.
Isn'tt his an age old theme in the bible?

Further down the line this group took control of the pakistani military and people like zia ul haq rose out of that and became president of pakistan. long story short his hudood ordinances were a disaster because corrupt people in religious seats are going to do more harm than good. Of course that goes back to what Jesus said about the rabbis.
Zia also created the isi ie the ones who are currently playing the double game with america. They created the taliban as their tool in afghanistan..you get the idea right?

It's wrong to judge us and our idea of an islamic theocracy based on those examples.



6)
Guess that would be the difference between us, I have no problem accepting that Solomon did exactly what the Word of God straight up said he did

I posted a lot of material on this topic not very long ago. Basically Canon does not make it 'the Word of God' specifically

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3259-bible-canon
The idea of canonicity can only have been suggested at a period when the national literature had progressed far enough to possess a large number of works from which a selection might be made. And the need for such selection was all the more urgent, since the Jewish mind occupied itself in producing exclusively writings of religious import, in which category, however, were also included various historical and didactic works. Which writings were included in the recognized collection, and in what manner such collection was made, are questions belonging to the history of the canon, and are discussed in this article: the origin and composition of the separate books come under the history of Biblical literature.


'didactic works'
is exactly how i understood Kings the first time round. Ie it's a text which has a wisdom behind it but it isn't meant to be literally true. It has an idea behind it that you've got to be aware of, namely Solomon's connection with the occult, control of demons etc. This arguably led to jewish people becoming attracted to the occult and when they learnt magic they were told 'solomon did it'
to present solomon as fallen was necessary to prevent people from trying to imitate him.


If you can be bothered, read this

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13842-solomon
According to the same rabbis, the sin ascribed to Solomon in I Kings xi. 7 et seq. is only figurative: it is not meant that Solomon fell into idolatry, but that he was guilty of failing to restrain his wives from idolatrous practises (Shab. 56b). Still, the legend prevalent in rabbinical literature is that Solomon lost his royalty, riches, and even his reason on account of his sins. This legend is based on the words "I, Ḳohelet, was king over Israel in Jerusalem " (Eccl. i. 12, Hebr.), which show that when he uttered them he was no longer king. He gradually fell from the highest glory into the deepest misery. At first, Solomon reigned over the inhabitants of the upper world as well as over those of the lower; then only over the inhabitants of the earth; later over Israel only; then he retained only his bed and his stick; and finally his stick alone was left to him (Sanh. 20b).

it's similar with David where the jews say that inr eality David didnt commit adultery..so what gives? in fact they say what the Quran says.

7)
You wrote
which is a NORMAL PRACTICE TODAY in much of the World in which Islam is the predominate culture and Religion.

No, it isn't normal. It does happen (marriage to minors i mean) but not in developed society and it is a big topic now amongst muslims and it is viewed as wrong by the vast majority except a few. That's an important point.

I get your point but evil done by muslims doesn't reflect islam. For me much of the context is about the rise of the abbasids. Don't you think it's convenient the abbasids rose to power and ruled over persia..and all the hadith scholars were persian?
The abbasids were enemies of the ahle-bayt (the household of Mohammad SAW).
so here's some context for you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_al-Ridha
imam Reza was assasinated by Al Ma'mun, an abbasid 'caliph'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ma'mun
In A.H. 201 (817 AD) al-Ma'mun forced Imam Reza to move from Madina to Merv. Imam Reza, the Eighth descendant of Muhammad, was named his heir. This was not easily accepted by the Abbasid leaders but was widely seen as a political move by al-Ma'mun since he was fearful of the widespread sympathy towards the Ahl al-Bayt. Al-Ma'mun's plan was to keep watch over Imam Reza. However, his plans did not succeed due to the growing popularity of Ali Al-Rida in Merv. People from all over the Muslim world traveled to meet the prophet's grandson and listen to his teachings and guidance.

these are real historical contexts.

you study the history of the ahle ul bayt you would find they were all persecuted/killed. That's part of why it's very important to understand the political designs of the same people who oversaw the end product of what's in the hadith. How they present Aisha as the convenient child bride has everything to do with popular shia discourse regarding her till this day..let alone what it was like in that era when they were persecuted. why is she then the most dominant 'voice' in the hadith (ie what's attributed to her, not what is literally true) is very much a big part of that design to kill of support for the ahle-bayt in that time.
If i was living in that time, who do you think i would support, the ahle-bayt or tyrant leaders?

I remember 10 years ago when The Arrivals was released and they covered this topic
i dont agree with shia on a lot of things because i hold the middle ground but this video is pretty revealing.
their version of the mahdi is different to the abbasid hadith version.

You do not want to give this idea real thought but I do accept what you're saying about muslims not leading by example. But it's pretty complex when you judge muslims almost 1500 years after the man, that's like judging the Moses for what pharisees did.

The hadith I quoted before about Aisha saying her parents followed islam before she'd reached puberty
of course in the context the term 'puberty' in islam also refers to mental maturity, not merely the age where you 'remember things' as some christians suggest but, it's the age where we're accountable. That age for us boys is when our balls drop, at that point it's obligatory for us to read salat 5 times a day...in the hadith translation the term used for that age is 'puberty' referring both to the age of accountability aswell as actual puberty.
That hadith at least makes it clear she had reached this age in Mecca because she talks about the Quraysh.

There are many similar logical arguments

eg

Narrated Yusuf bin Mahik: I was in the house of 'Aisha, the mother of the Believers. She said, "This revelation: "Nay, but the hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense); and the Hour will be more previous and most bitter." (54.46) was revealed to Muhammad at Mecca while I was a playfull little girl." (Book #60, Hadith #399)

The chapter she refers to in the Quran, surah 54 was revealed in the 4th year after the call, when Mohammad SAW was 44 years old.
Aisha could remember the revelation of this verse as a 'playful little girl'.

What age do you suppose that was, 4, 5, 6, 7?
She would have married Mohammad 11 years later.
No way she was 9 years old.

See in this case your only argument is to just keep repeating it like it's a fact, like you don't even believe the Quran was divinely revealed but the hadith are definitely 100% true with no mistakes or no manipulation within them? come on huh?


Raping, paedophillia, just as much common amongst white people. There is a context under which it's thrived here in the UK though. I can acknowledge all of that.

Example
they say, that muslims are segregated ie muslim ghettos. BUT here's the real context
Muslims arrived to work in the cotton mills in northern parts of the UK. So immediately they lived in close quarters in homes originally built for factory workers.
That industry faced huge closures during Thatchers era. That led to mass unemployment all over the UK but it lead to muslims driving taxis and setting up businesses for a living, all within close quarters again. So technically, you end up with what you can call muslim ghettos. Wasn't entirely by choice back in the day though.

Now, it's later down the line where this segregated environment means, literally i saw girls selling sex in our area growing up because no one who knew them, would see them here.
get it?
back then the idea of paedophillia never crossed my minds, these were older girls. it isn'tuntil i got older i realised 'those girls are in my high school wtf' but those girls had bad reputations as slags, easy, whores etc. i swear this is a true story.

When they were selling sex, again, i swear to you on this, they would even walk into the mosque and offer blowies for a £10 from older men, all the time.
most men responded harshly, many with embarassment, but i imagine a fair few just didnt give a shit and indulged when no one was looking OR alternatively we had the types who were younger, drank alcohol, used drugs etc and regularly hung out with these girls.
many of those girls even wound up marrying the guys.

many years later, this stuff became widespread in muslim towns all over, it's because one guy does it, another gets tempted 'he can do it, so i will too'
they call each other.
recently, on bigo app which i go on sometimes, a bunch of guys tried to trap a normal older pakistani girl into gangbang sessions and she exposed them.
so we have our fair share of filth, it isnt reflective of islam.
in fact if islamw as enforced these types would at the very least get the living shit beaten out of them and at most, stoned to death.
that's the irony isnt it?
I don't know everything but the seedy environment exists kind of in the open but one that only the worst types indulge in.
where i live, i've walked out in the month of ramadan dressed in full islamic clothing, a hat...on my way to the mosque, park on the street and notice a girl running towards my car, she gets in and offers me business.
no thanks, ffs? girl looked like she was riddled in herpes...
if that exists, how many will indulge?
aside from that, i swear to God, i know worse stories than this about guys raping normal muslim girls..as in muslims do r*pe muslims, it isnt targetted towards non-muslims but one of those where bad people want to take advantage of any vulnerable girl. when a muslim girl is raped, family honour means she can't even tlk about it...she doesn't want people talking about her and her family can'tt ake revenge in a country like this.
it's why in pakistan people resort to murder and revenge r*pe on a big scale when shit like this happens.
It is not exactly islam is it?


8) i agree with you
when i question hadith here, my beliefs get called 'dubious' by other muslims. when i quote from the bible, ive been accused of being a non-muslim. eitherway a fair few here don't like me.
I agree generally that muslims are hypocritical when quoting from the hadith BUT there is nothing wrong with using hadith as historical markers AS LONG AS you're aware of context.

eg
hadith
Imam Mahdi will come, from khorosan, with an army carying a black flag.
not only is this actually plagarising from persian prophecies....the Abbasids who ruled khorosan/persia areas themselves carried black flags.


YET actually i do believe in things like the law of attraction but not the way it's sold by the new age shit. I believe based on what ive seen my whole life, you create your own reality.
in sufism, the material world is connected with the mind.
They are called Nasut and Malakut.
nothing can happen in the physical unless it happens in malakut beforehand. Get it?
part of malakut is the astral plane. I have seen a whole load of stuf throughout my life and very recently too...so i believe in shared thoughtforms and manifestations.

This is also connected with the deuteronomy chapter about punishments for disobedience which you ironically quoted.
That chapter was a huge marker for the material manifestation of an arab prophet.
The jews were awaiting a messiah in that age, they retook jerusalem from christian control with persian support and killed christians.
Their messianic hopes were at a long time high.
Their messianic desire was someone like Mohammad...but obv jewish.
this is a long theme though, it led to jews in medina celebrating his arrival. possibly they saw him as a forerunner to the messiah? like John the Baptist to Jesus..in the wilderness calling to the straight path. Long story short, he ws an arab.
what they plant, they won't eat it's fruit.
that's the idea.

i apply this idea to the law of attraction and our internal beliefs, because malakut has both the emotional aspect (the astral plane) anf the logical mental aspect (the mental plane). The law of God pertains to the mental side connecting with the law of God, with God's Transcendence and the otherside connects with God's Immanence.
there has to be a perfect balance of both.

so one of the ideas i hold is that the muslim Mahdi archetype will manifest in the form of the jewish messiah (false messiah) and ironically the jewish messianic idea will result in the literal manifestation of that type of figure amongst muslims, ie the mahdi/saviour.
this theme is that shadow side of prophecy.

It's important for us all to be aware of what we post. I post hadith prophecies but with it in mind that they do have a very real presence in the current world. the idea that hundreds of millions believe in an idea, it must create something?

also i have to question the intent behind a hadith too.
the hadith of aisha's age have the obvious connection with the politics of that time.
the mahdi prophecy had the obvious connection to the abbasid's seeking credibility and public support.
but many prophecies contain hadith are shared by noth sunnis and shias and avoid those controversies.

There are many prophecies, some which are linked to bible prophecy too. Too many to talk about here. The mere fact they exist at all, does make them relevant to what happens though.


9) How on earth have I created a new religion? lmao.
I believe what is in the Quran and i believe it with more of a mind on real contexts.
for example when I read the Quran I know that it tells me
The disciples of Jesus were inspired by Allah
now based on that, it is my view that Peter was God inspired.
Therefore if Peter (in the book of acts) saw his vision in the cloud, i do not believe Satan made him disbelieve at that moment.
YET many muslims do, look it up on google.

who's truth is more accurate to the Quranic text? it's mine.
knowing Peter was inspired by Allah, some argue that maybe Paul tricked him and he didn't know any better BUT Peter did praise Paul. Even if Peter didnt author that chapter though, book of acts is proof Peter accepted Paul aswell as the other disciples/apostles...God inspired as they were.
it is disbelief for me to believe such people fell into satan's hands so soon. I don't believe over 1000 years of messianic hopes would suddenly fall into the hands of satan.
nope.

if that was true then christianity would be dead from it's inception

YET the Quran tells us about the seven sleepers, 2 centuries later. Christians.
Do you get my point?
The hadith talk about St George..he was a christian in the 3rd century too.
so if such people are saints, it means their beliefs were not wrong.

So who's perspective is theologically more honest, mine or theirs?

the reason someone here doubted my belief is because as online muslamic princesses go, they are used to white knight beard bro asskissers and im not one of them, so dare i disagree with a muslimaic princess online, my entire faith will be called into question.



what makes me a muslim is i believe in Allah, i beleive in a very balanced approach which balances Allah's Transcendent nature and His Immanent nature. This approach allows me to make sense of John 1:1 as a theological statement pertaining to His Trancendence and a mystical statement pertaining to His immanence.

I criticise christians for being theologically dishonest for only picking the part that suits them without understanding the whole verse.
This is a theme ive repeated so often you should already know what i refer to.

it is wrong to make a mystical statement into a core theology unless you balance it correctly.
For me, actually, the first time ir ead john 1:1 it made perfect sense because i was already familiar with the islamic approach to these themes concerning Allah's Trancendence and Immanence.

I understand that the metaphysics behind the trinitarian doctrine, refer to Allah's Essence, the Macrocosmic expression and the microcosmic expression.
The truth of this metaphysics is in the words Bismillah IrRahman IrRaheem

Just because most muslims do not know abot that doesnt mean i have my own religion.
it just means that Allah has allowed me to understand some things..because i had that intention from the beginning.


Similarly I have looked at the story of Prophet Mohammad's acension to the 7 heavens and each of the prophets he met..and can directly connect those with 7 chakras/lokas/7 souls in hindu and sufi metaphysics.

sure, this makes people doubt me..but i believe my understanding is far more on point than theirs.

example
“It is Allah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof"

I was on another forum where i saw an entire thread discussing this verse
guys talking about 7 inner earths (the hollow earth theory), 7 planets and all manner of views
when i read it
it made clear saense and again it was about the macrocosm/microcosm theme
like in hinduism the 7 lokas (heavens) are connected with 7 chakras (man).
'of the earth, their like therof'
of the earth= bani Adam.
the likeness of the 7 heavens, all in man, is part f that theme of the 7 chakras.

I could go into depth on this topic but it's a huge topic.
I'm sharing this with you just to give you a quick glance at how as a muslim, im confidently a muslim whilst seeking to understand these themes.


my perspective doesnt make me a non-muslim with a new religion, but a muslim who intends on understanding my religion better than the ave joe who is largely ignorant.


I believe in Mohammad SAW as the final messenger of Allah. I believe in Jesus as God's Word/Logos. I believe john 16's comforter prophecy did refer to the holy spirit but was fulfilled through Mohammad..since the holy spirit is our microcosmic reality and functions within us, not externally. What Jesus said about him coming to teach us all the truth and tell us what is yet to come..to convict the world of it's sin etc, all of this was fulfilled with the prophethood of Mohmmad SAW and the revelation of the quran.


10)

You have this idea that there's one basic historical muslim consensus but this is what the sheep think already. They do not realise how easy it is to manipulate info
the difference is those who had the monopoly on information conquered the internet.
hard for other voices to be heard.

You actually quoted from ibn kathir's text once on this which referred to a saying of ibn abbas. Problem is, the text that contained the apparent words of ibn abbas was collected in the lifetime of ibn kathir, we're talking about a difference of 700 years.
further to that....ibn kathir ws a student of ibn tahmiyya who is attributed as the inspiration behind the wahabi movement.

This viewpoint is kind of magnified in the contexts ive explained.
if a muslim with access to vast texts could search through them, they would find diverse opinions.

You will find for example one of the early muslim texts refers to Paul as one of the apostles of Jesus.
not as an imposter, it matches him with Peter too who is related to the story in the Quran where the disciples were inspired by Allah.
that is a more respectful approach towards christianity than you get from many muslims today because it's about what they want to believe.



11)
Are you kidding me? LOL this is the crown jewel in your evidence of proof that Islam is correct? And you feint to know Christianity?

You mean like from the creation of the world until approximately 1400 BC? Or like Samaria and the Northern Tribes from 722 BC until the present? Or are you just talking about Jerusalem? Which land do you want to actually talk about, be specific, because YHWH declared all of Israel not just the tiny portion of Judah to be His Holy Land in the Word of God.



Erm. pretty sure muslims controlled all of it as long as we've been around from the time of Umar except during the crusades..you can pretend the land doesnt matter now but your people crusaded for hundreds of years, but got their wish through colonialism i suppose.



The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come



After Jesus, the gentile era began connected with Revelation 11, ie the 2 prophets symbolising islam and christianity (not elijah and moses as manyof you believe), nor 2 literal prophets.
This is symbolic not literal.


-side note, it doesnt prove Jesus is God. This is why i accuse you of being theologically dishonest and posessing tunnel vision.

Matthew 25:35-40 is an example of God's Immanence. I do associate Jesus as the Logos and therefore reflective of God's Immanence probably moreso than any other person, ever. So my interpretation differs from yours. I don't consider him God because of what he said and even if you look at Matt 23 within it he says "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
how on earth that makes him God himself when he comes in the name of the Lord? only in the mind of a theologically dishonest person.



You're forgetting a key point connected with the teachings of Paul. The gentiles were reckoned because the jews were cut off. The enemies of the jewish people, were the romans, who then became christian, get it?

The best example I can give you about this is the parable of tenants

In Matthew 21 Jesus then says
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit


In the context Jesus had come to jerusalem, hence these parables in Matthew 21 are deeply connected with Jerusalem.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+5:3&version=NIV
Isaiah 5, the whole context of the vineyard is about the holy land and the vineyard is israel.
The vineyard represents our spiritual state, but it is placed on that land.


So clearly Jesus said that it would be taken and given to people who will produce it's fruit.
Christians posessed it but they lost it when muslims arrived.
The crusaders happened..but by large the muslims have posessed it.
This relates again to Revelation 11 as in two religions who both believe in Jesus are attacked by the anti-christ.

remember also as christians you believe you are the wild branches grafted into the olive tree. So...that would in effect mean you were supposed to posess whatever the jews once posessed esp Jerusalem.




12)
Yeah buddy, its gonna be a bad day for Islam when Jesus comes back to reestablish Israel for the remnant that turn their hearts back to Him and call Him Blessed coming in the name of the Lord


no, it won't, because this thing of yours is mentioned in the Quran too

17:103
And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter draws near. We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.


maybe it's bad for all of us who are in the wrong, justg like he will reject most of you so called christians who call him 'lord'
so where does that leave you?
you have no proof from the bible that Jesus will one day fight against islam in the way you are implying, but you do have proof he will reject many christians.
that says it all about you.



13)
It also answers why Christianity never has nor never will control the area, because its reserved to be set up ONLY when Jesus comes back, all other peoples and Religions that try and control it are impostors and will suffer the Wrath of God.

lmao

no mate, you had the holy land until islam came and then spent centuries of crusades to win it back
ive already provided you with the parable of tenants and isaiah 5 text as proof that gentiles who took control of the land long term would be legitimate 'tenants' in God's eyes.



14)
Christians dont want Jerusalem, our kingdom is not of this world or else we would fight but since its not we war in Spirit until Christ comes back and destroys Islam, and Catholicism, and this False Satanic Religion called Modern Judaism, and He Himself establishes the REAL Israel not this False State ran by Luciferians using the name of Israel to foment their Satanic Plans. Regardless all Scripture always points to the heathens and those that are the enemies of God and those that worship false gods taking control of Israel once God smites them, enjoy that as your crown jewel I suppose...

bless ya, i believe much of that but this idea you have of Jesus fighting muslims is just misleading and has no theological ground.

As i did relate to you, the Revelation 11 2 witnesses theme, which of course i expect you to dismiss because it's convenient.


15) longest post ever btw. unlike you, i don't have any negative views of what i perceive to be authentic christianity.
i just find it all laughable how you diss catholicism but follow a group who split..and that split from the protestants was from a guy called Martin Luther who was not even a theologically sound person.
for example he called the pope, 'the anti-christ' but then he referred to the vatican as 'the whore of babylon'
even though in the context the anti-christ would destroy the whore and obv wasnt that pope.

Martin luther had little steam, until Henry the 8th accepted the protestant movement in england through Thomas Cromwell because he wanted a new wife and fell out with the pope.

it's nice to know part of your theological stance is based on Henry the 8ths vanity and guyslike Thomas Cromwell who slaughtered christians and burnt down monastries/churches...but what did it for him was when he introduced the king to a german princess who was not attractive..so the king had cromwell beheaded and blamed him for the fall out against catholicism. To appease everyone and prevent a potential uprising he did this cute thing, he decided he was only going to reject some parts of catholicism but not all, that way you could have a middle ground.
you judge my islam, your idea of true christianity is a bit of a shambles though given the above points which i doubt you've ever contemplated.


nice, so israel is satanic but then islam is satanic too but both sides are against each other?
nice to know you contradict Jesus's stance ie satan's kingdom is not divided

Will Jesus smite the evangelical's who cannot worship israel enough? CUFI and them types.

burning sulphur
fire and brimstone
smiting
nations reelings

i love how those kind of christians read this stuff and immediately think
'go on raptor Jesus fffffkingh gYrqeqYUEESSSS kill em muslamic fhjfqf]-gf- nations reelingz"


look, i don't hold those views about you guys. I believe Jesus will be pretty good with honest people and if we're wrong he'll tell those people why they're wrong. The way you talk about this idea of the messianic kingdom it's soo wrong.
Previous nations like the romans and babylonians and greeks persecuted the jewish religion and attempted to destroy it.
Muslims are credited with actually saving judaism, that's the irony of it all.

I find it so bogus that the 'whore sitting on the beast' (ie the jews who rule the western roman colonial world) today are at war against persia and muslims..historically the 2 nations who saved jews from christian persecution.


The Quran tells me the truth of our differences will one day be revealed fully. It was Allah's will to make us into 3 distinct religions in order to test us.
 






rainerann

Star
Joined
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Messages
3,545
When people question Christian beliefs according to our doctrine, they come up with a core number of things that we have seen over and over on the forum. There is a debate over the Trinity, the preservation of scripture, or this sort of license to sin accusation. It is the same thing over and over again.

When people debate the doctrine of Islam, we bring up permission to cause harm to others because there is a way to interpret the Quran to promote harming women, children, people who have different religious beliefs, apostates. To pretend that people don't bring legitimate doctrinal discussions is absurd. The problem is that people seem to have difficulty separating a complaint about doctrine with a personal insult.

It is as though someone like myself was saying that the people I'm talking to are personally guilty for what I am saying the doctrine of Islam teaches. In fact, I am not. I don't really see any argument I would make against Islam in a personal way towards anyone in particular with the exception of KungFu who clearly demonstrates an agenda. There are multiple threads discussing the subject of the Trinity where he is the instigator of the discussion.

The difference is that KungFu, and sometimes others, seem to try to make the argument in their responses that they are addressing something doctrinal while no one else is when they are bringing up the subject of Islam. This is a way of creating a counter-argument against Christianity when there are no more doctrinal issues that can be raised beside the Trinity.

This can clearly be considered an agenda because it just doesn't matter in reality. It just doesn't matter whether Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God because it doesn't cause harm to anyone. If you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, so what. The only reason it would matter is if you wanted to try to convince someone to favor your religious position over another. That is the only reason to keep bringing it up because if this is the core doctrinal complaint towards the actual teachings within the religion of Christianity, then what other reason would someone have to keep bringing it up?

At the end of the day, no matter how much it bothers me that someone like Kung Fu is so absolutely rude, it doesn't matter what he has to say about the actual doctrine I believe because I don't believe in forcing anyone to accept it anyway. So it really doesn't matter whether he keeps doing it or whether anyone even ever thinks he makes a good point. Whether I believe in the Trinity doesn't ever create a risk of harm to anyone and I never at any point have any doctrine supporting persuasion of this belief by force.

On the other hand, in debating the actual doctrine of Islam, I am always able to find something new to include. I never have to circulate with the same things in order to present a case that Islam is a religion that offends the senses. For example, let's add something new to the list of doctrines that Christians bring up. Let's talk about the wife of Muhammad's adopted son that is mentioned in the Quran.

This is the full chapter of Quran 33 for anyone who is interested. The first thing to note is how nonspecific everything is. There is literally no way to know what event the writer is talking about in most every case, but it does include the circumstances regarding Muhammad marrying his adopted son's wife who divorced his adopted son in order to marry Muhammad. I have bolded what is relevant to the point that I am making in distinguishing the difference between debating between Islam and Christianity and how Islam is confined to such a limited scope; while, Islam is a broad expanse of doctrine that we are capable of bringing complaint against.

1. O Prophet! Fear God, and do not obey the unbelievers and the hypocrites. God is Knowledgeable and Wise.

2. And follow what is revealed to you from your Lord. God is fully aware of what you do.

3. And put your trust in God. God is enough as a trustee.

4. God did not place two hearts inside any man's body. Nor did He make your wives whom you equate with your mothers, your actual mothers. Nor did He make your adopted sons, your actual sons. These are your words coming out of your mouths. God speaks the truth, and guides to the path.

5. Call them after their fathers; that is more equitable with God. But if you do not know their fathers, then your brethren in faith and your friends. There is no blame on you if you err therein, barring what your hearts premeditates. God is Forgiving and Merciful.

6. The Prophet is more caring of the believers than they are of themselves, and his wives are mothers to them. And blood-relatives are closer to one another in God’s Book than the believers or the emigrants, though you should do good to your friends. That is inscribed in the Book.

7. Recall that We received a pledge from the prophets, and from you, and from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus son of Mary. We received from them a solemn pledge.

8. That He may ask the sincere about their sincerity. He has prepared for the disbelievers a painful punishment.

9. O you who believe! Remember God’s blessings upon you, when forces came against you, and We sent against them a wind, and forces you did not see. God is Observant of what you do.

10. When they came upon you, from above you, and from beneath you; and the eyes became dazed, and the hearts reached the throats, and you harbored doubts about God. (added: when what came upon you? It might have help to include this.)

11. There and then the believers were tested, and were shaken most severely.

12. When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is sickness said, “God and His Messenger promised us nothing but illusion.”

13. And when a group of them said, “O people of Yathrib, you cannot make a stand, so retreat.” And a faction of them asked the Prophet to excuse them, saying, “Our homes are exposed,” although they were not exposed. They only wanted to flee.

14. Had it been invaded from its sides, and they were asked to dissent, they would have done so with little hesitation.

15. Although they had made a pledged to God, in the past, that they will not turn their backs. A pledge to God is a responsibility.

16. Say, “Flight will not benefit you, if you flee from death or killing, even then you will be given only brief enjoyment.”

17. Say, “Who is it who will shield you from God, if He intends adversity for you, or intends mercy for you?” Besides God, they will find for themselves neither friend nor helper.

18. God already knows the hinderers among you, and those who say to their brethren, “Come and join us.” Rarely do they mobilize for battle.(This is why the Hadith is required to clarify this because it is nonspecific to anyone and there is no way to understand what the hinderers were doing that was creating the problem. This absence of a specific source of hinderance is what causes false teachings in the Hadiths to occur and many people are familiar with the response that hadith's are not valid. This is why. It is because the Quran does not describe anything in detail that provides clarity to a believer. )

19. Being stingy towards you. And when fear approaches, you see them staring at you—their eyes rolling—like someone fainting at death. Then, when panic is over, they whip you with sharp tongues. They resent you any good. These have never believed, so God has nullified their works; a matter easy for God.

20. They assumed that the confederates had not withdrawn. But were the confederates to advance, they would wish they were in the desert with the Bedouins, inquiring about your news. And if they were among you, they would have done little fighting.

21. You have an excellent example in the Messenger of God; for anyone who seeks God and the Last Day, and remembers God frequently.

22. And when the believers saw the confederates, they said, “This is what God and His messenger have promised us; and God and His messenger have told the truth.” And it only increased them in faith and submission.

23. Of the believers are men who are true to what they pledged to God. Some of them have fulfilled their vows; and some are still waiting, and never wavering.

24. That God may reward the truthful for their truthfulness; and punish the hypocrites, if He wills, or pardon them. God is Forgiving and Merciful.

25. God repelled the disbelievers in their rage; they gained no advantage. God thus spared the believers combat. God is Strong and Mighty.

26. And He brought down from their strongholds those of the People of the Book who backed them, and He threw terror into their hearts. Some of them you killed, and others you took captive.

27. And He made you inherit their land, and their homes, and their possessions, and a region you have never stepped on. God has power over all things.

28. O Prophet! Say to your wives, “If you desire the life of this world and its finery, then let me compensate you, and release you kindly.

29. But if you desire God, His Messenger, and the Home of the Hereafter, then God has prepared for the righteous among you a magnificent compensation.”

30. O wives of the Prophet! Whoever of you commits a proven indecency, the punishment for her will be doubled. And that would be easy for God.

31. But whoever of you remains obedient to God and His Messenger, and acts righteously, We will give her a double reward; and We have prepared for her a generous provision.

32. O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women, if you observe piety. So do not speak too softly, lest the sick at heart lusts after you, but speak in an appropriate manner.

33. And settle in your homes; and do not display yourselves, as in the former days of ignorance. And perform the prayer, and give regular charity, and obey God and His Messenger. God desires to remove all impurity from you, O People of the Household, and to purify you thoroughly.

34. And remember what is recited in your homes of God's revelations and wisdom. God is Kind and Informed.

35. Muslim men and Muslim women, believing men and believing women, obedient men and obedient women, truthful men and truthful women, patient men and patient women, humble men and humble women, charitable men and charitable women, fasting men and fasting women, men who guard their chastity and women who guard, men who remember God frequently and women who remember—God has prepared for them a pardon, and an immense reward.

36. It is not for any believer, man or woman, when God and His Messenger have decided a matter, to have liberty of choice in their decision. Whoever disobeys God and His Messenger has gone far astray.

37. When you said to him whom God had blessed, and you had favored, “Keep your wife to yourself, and fear God.” But you hid within yourself what God was to reveal. And you feared the people, but it was God you were supposed to fear. Then, when Zaid ended his relationship with her, We gave her to you in marriage, that there may be no restriction for believers regarding the wives of their adopted sons, when their relationship has ended. The command of God was fulfilled.( This verse is explained to mean that Muhammad was told by his adopted son that he should marry his adopted son's wife and he refused because he feared the people would not accept that this was the will of God for him. He is rebuked for fearing the people more than God who is the one who wants his adopted son's wife to divorce her husband and marry Muhammad. This is because God wants to teach the people that God wants them to have permission to marry the wives of their sons if they are sons through adoption. This is in the Quran and is considered the true unaltered word of God himself.

It is believed that this severs the teaching that an adopted son is equal with a natural son, which would make this appear to have been engineered to counter an existing teaching in Christianity, which is that believers are sons and daughters through adoption that have equal rights of natural sons and daughters in Christ. Therefore, suggesting the possibility that the function of Islam is to persecute Christianity, which someone like KungFu seems to demonstrate, is the truth of the matter. )


38. There is no blame on the Prophet regarding what God has ordained for him. Such is the pattern of God among those who passed before. The command of God is an absolute decree.

39. Those who deliver the messages of God, and fear Him, and never fear anyone except God. God is sufficient as a reckoner.

40. Muhammad is not the father of any of your men; but he is the Messenger of God, and the seal of the prophets. God is Cognizant of everything.

41. O you who believe, remember God with frequent remembrance.

42. And glorify Him morning and evening.

43. It is He who reaches out to you, and His angels, to bring you out of darkness into the light. And He is Ever-Merciful towards the believers.

44. Their greeting on the Day they meet Him is, “Peace,” and He has prepared for them a generous reward.

45. O prophet! We have sent you as a witness, and a bearer of good news, and a warner.

46. And a caller towards God by His leave, and an illuminating beacon.

47. And give the believers the good news that for them is a great reward.

48. And do not obey the blasphemers and the hypocrites, and ignore their insults, and rely on God. God is a sufficient protector.

49. O you who believe! When you marry believing women, but then divorce them before you have touched them, there is no waiting period for you to observe in respect to them; but compensate them, and release them in a graceful manner.

50. O Prophet! We have permitted to you your wives to whom you have given their dowries, and those you already have, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your paternal uncle, and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncle, and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you, and a believing woman who has offered herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desires to marry her, exclusively for you, and not for the believers. We know what We have ordained for them regarding their wives and those their right-hands possess. This is to spare you any difficulty. God is Forgiving and Merciful.

51. You may defer any of them you wish, and receive any of them you wish. Should you desire any of those you had deferred, there is no blame on you. This is more proper, so that they will be comforted, and not be grieved, and be content with what you have given each one of them. God knows what is within your hearts. God is Omniscient and Clement.

52. Beyond that, no other women are permissible for you, nor can you exchange them for other wives, even if you admire their beauty, except those you already have. God is Watchful over all things.

53. O you who believe! Do not enter the homes of the Prophet, unless you are given permission to come for a meal; and do not wait for its preparation. And when you are invited, go in. And when you have eaten, disperse, without lingering for conversation. This irritates the Prophet, and he shies away from you, but God does not shy away from the truth. And when you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a screen; that is purer for your hearts and their hearts. You must never offend the Messenger of God, nor must you ever marry his wives after him, for that would be an enormity with God.

54. Whether you declare a thing, or hide it, God is Aware of all things.

55. There is no blame on them concerning their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their female servants. But they should remain conscious of God. God is Witness over all things.

56. God and His angels give blessings to the Prophet. O you who believe, call for blessings on him, and greet him with a prayer of peace.

57. Those who insult God and His Messenger, God has cursed them in this life and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a demeaning punishment.

58. Those who harm believing men and believing women, for acts they did not commit, bear the burden of perjury and a flagrant sin.

59. O Prophet! Tell your wives, and your daughters, and the women of the believers, to lengthen their garments. That is more proper, so they will be recognized and not harassed. God is Forgiving and Merciful.

60. If the hypocrites, and those with sickness in their hearts, and the rumormongers in the City, do not desist, We will incite you against them; then they will not be your neighbors there except for a short while.

61. They are cursed; wherever they are found, they should be captured and killed outright. (This is very vague in its definition and cannot be understood again without a Hadith that one person will use in order to present the argument that people shouldn't be offended by this, while another person will use this to justify a different interpretation. This can be used to say that someone can be captured and killed for something as simple as saying that Islam believes in the moon god. This could be a rumor worthy of applying this form of punishment. Usually, we are told that this describes some sort of more legitimate treason when verses like this are mentioned. However, the actual verse is vague and you are depending on the inconsistent rendering of the Hadiths in order to understand the boundaries of what can be considered rumor worthy of capturing and killing a person outright.)


62. Such has been God’s precedent with those who passed away before. You will find no change in God’s system.

63. The people ask you about the Hour. Say, “The knowledge thereof rests with God. But what do you know? Perhaps the hour is near.”

64. God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a Blaze.

65. Dwelling therein forever, not finding a protector or a savior.

66. The Day when their faces are flipped into the Fire, they will say, “If only we had obeyed God and obeyed the Messenger.”

67. And they will say, “Lord, we have obeyed our superiors and our dignitaries, but they led us away from the way.

68. Lord, give them double the punishment, and curse them with a great curse.”

69. O you who believe! Do not be like those who abused Moses; but God cleared him of what they said. He was distinguished with God.

70. O you who believe! Be conscious of God, and speak in a straightforward manner.

71. He will rectify your conduct for you, and will forgive you your sins. Whoever obeys God and His Messenger has won a great victory.

72. We offered the Trust to the heavens, and the earth, and the mountains; but they refused to bear it, and were apprehensive of it; but the human being accepted it. He was unfair and ignorant.

73. God will punish the hypocrites, men and women, and the idolaters, men and women. And God will redeem the believers, men and women. God is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
So, I will continue to find new doctrinal arguments about Islam again and again, while the opposition continues to circle the same handful of arguments over and over against Christianity for no real apparent reason. There is no legitimate reason to believe that the two are in competition aside from the fact that Christianity is mentioned as an opponent so many, many times in the Quran. The Quran teaches that we are opponents.

Christianity does not teach these things in case anyone is confused over why Christians and Muslims continue to find themselves in these discussions. The basis for credibility in Islam depends on discrediting Christianity. Without the ability to discredit Christianity, the validity of Islam is questionable.

In contrast, Christianity depends on the teachings of Christ and has no real need for debating the subject of the Trinity aside from the encouragement given in scripture to bring the gospel to others and our desire that explanations will bring the clarity needed to find salvation. This is the only reason for our participation.

So, just in case anyone is wondering (not that you are), the next time I question the doctrine of Islam, I plan on finding fresh material. Maybe you should try to do the same.

Next time, I might even try responding to one of the many insults that @SpektaCoolAir has made about me in one of his many posts he has made to me that I ignore. He said, "if she were a muslim - with that type of behavior - she would be watched & even more!" https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/is-jesus-the-begotten-son-of-god.2047/#post-73546

What do you suppose it means that he is saying that what I have said deserves to make me a target to be watched if I were a Muslim? I would be watched and even more...what do you suppose that means? Somehow my exercise of free speech generated this response and there are teachings to support that I deserve to be watched because of something I said if I were Muslim? So you are saying I were Muslim, I would be censored from saying something that questioned the teachings of Islam?

But, I will save this for another time. In the meantime, keep on keeping on in the belief that trashing the Trinity is somehow going to elevate the view of Islam. God bless.
 






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@rainerann
The bit you quoted is not difficult to understand. It's talking about a context that existed in the lifetime of prophet Mohammad and has nothing to do with us. It isn't an instruction for us to kill people.



you wrote
This is very vague in its definition and cannot be understood again without a Hadith that one person will use in order to present the argument that people shouldn't be offended by this, while another person will use this to justify a different interpretation. This can be used to say that someone can be captured and killed for something as simple as saying that Islam believe in the moon god. This could be a rumor worthy of applying this form of punishment. Usually, we are told that this describes some sort of more legitimate treason when verses like this are mentioned. However, the actual verse is vague and you are depending on the inconsistent rendering of the Hadiths in order to understand the boundaries of what can be considered rumor worthy of capturing and killing a person outright.)

nope...this isn't a free pass to kill anyone, you know why? because if someone today cursed at islam and our prophet...it is not the same level of offense as someone directly cursing a prophet of God. doesn't matter which prophet you personally believe in, in the old testament, when men curse at prophets, that is a sin amongst sins. People got killed for smaller slights.

context
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahzab

60. If the hypocrites, and those with sickness in their hearts, and the rumormongers in the City, do not desist, We will incite you against them; then they will not be your neighbors there except for a short while.

61. They are cursed; wherever they are found, they should be captured and killed outright.


for example when Jesus was rejected, end game, 1million jews killed in jerusalem by the romans.
that's God's hand and what Jesus himself said would happen, because he was rejected.
sure, he didn't personally execute those jews but you then believe he is God anyway so technically you believe he himself made that choice to kill 1 million jews....
and yet you want to criticise our religion?


Do you have any stance against our core beliefs like i do with your belief?
not once has a single christian here directly given me an answer worthy of respect about the trinitarian belief
i have seen what happens...

I believe that the jewish nation was in a state where they were lost in the 'transcendence' of God, following rules..this side of God pertains to our logical conception of a universal/single God, it is based on what we call 'tawheed', it relies on logic.

Then you get the opposite, you get deep panthiestic/polythiestic religions where people's hearts are so open to the pluristic ideas of Godhead that they lose sight of logic.

Jesus came in order to correct their hearts ie to open their heart to God. So much of what is taught pertains to mystical elements of religion, but they should never ever be taken without the logical aspect of truth balanced.

That's about it really.
 






Daciple

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Messages
1,157
See the way I reply, it is easier to respond in points but when people dissect posts, that makes me not want to reply because it makes it difficult for me to quote.
I dont see how it makes it difficult to quote, its simple highlight what you want to speak about then hit reply, it pops up everytime you highlight something. IMO the way you respond it not only a bit more difficult to respond to but at the same time also more difficult to understand what points or parts of ones post you are replying to. Not hard to tell what I am replying to, what thought or part of your post, why? Because I quote it then address it. However to each their own I suppose...

Just to make things clear, there is nowhere near as much criticism of christianity from muslims either here or anywhere else.
Highly disagree, I mean how many pages are we at right now in JUST this thread alone? 4 so far, and all the posts save one or two are criticism of Christianity from mainly one atm Muslim poster, and then Christians trying to address the criticisms. I already mentioned the FACT that there are literally multiple out right Christian criticism threads, let alone posts, as opposed to 2 concerning Islam. You can say what you want but it is obvious that Christianity and its Doctrines are criticized at a much higher rate than Islam, period...

we don't lie about your beliefs,
You mean like constantly calling us Polytheists? Stop it AS, be honest, YOU are probably the only "Muslim" who doesnt lie continually about our beliefs, and that is because as I have said over and over, you are really NOT a Muslim. You have created your own Religion mixed from Islam/Christianity/Gnostic/Occult ideologies. You may not like my assestment of your Religion but it is correct, as no Muslims believes your Muslim, no Christian believes your Christian, no Gnostic would accept you as Gnostic, not Occultist would accept you as following the Occult. You have made up your own unique brand and hodgepodge of beliefs, it clearly isnt Islam...

In this thread ALONE I have been called a Polytheist twice by Muslims, my beliefs are CONSTANTLY lied about over and over on this forum, usually by the same Muslim, however others have definitely joined in on the party of lying about the ideologies and concepts and doctrines of Christianity. You are being dishonest to say they are not, dont be dishonest on this position, its not becoming of you sir...

Even if we show them our monothiestic beliefs (the topic of tawheed) they will just say 'nope, derp derp moon god/satan'
You mean like how even if we explain our monotheistic beliefs we are still called Polytheists? They will say nope derp derp you worship 3 gods!! Yeah happens all the time, 2 times in this thread alone there buddy. You gonna admonish them when they do it? Doubtful...

Who are you talking about? im not aware of anyone with fake accounts who specifically joins this forum to silently attack christianity or promote islam with fake stories like tanya has done.
Scimitar has made multiple sock accounts trolling like he always did, its obvious but for some disingenuous reason the Muslims act like it doesnt go on. Please its obvious when he comes back, he cant help but show his true colors. Everyone else notices it IMMEDIATELY...

That's how I feel too..but again this was all only brought up in response to something @rainerann said so don't quote me out of context and then bang on about how we're boasting because we're weak. I was responding to someone who is celebrating the apparent 'decline of islam'.
Its not just directed at you but Muslims in general. I dont agree that Islam in on the decline, I can understand her point to a degree about how the West wont accept Islam because it is a Theocracy and no matter what you want to say about how its being enforced isnt really Islam, in reality that is HOW Islam is practiced and well there is little to no movements within Islam to STOP the particular ENFORCEMENT of HOW Islam is practiced of which the West hates and rejects. Yet with that being said I disagree with her that it will actually decline, it will increase because Muslims are breeding like rabbits as it is simply apart of their Culture (nothing inherently against that so dont take it as an attack) while in Western Culture it has been for the past 50 years pushed on us by way of brainwashing NOT to procreate thus there is no way that our Culture will survive against the Muslims who are immigrating and then breeding like rabbits. Its just a matter of time before Muslims overtake Europe. The only place Islam will have an exceedingly hard time taking root to overthrow the Culture is America because we dont play that crap. We arent as wussyified as Europe, we wont allow millions upon millions of immigrants into our borders and we definitely wont allow Islamic Theocracies to manifest without a literal bloodbath taking place.

But there probably will be a Civil War or some type of Economic Disaster that will help usher in the European model of Society here at some point, and once that happens then Islam will start moving here and taking over just like it did in Europe in the past 25 years.

So basically I don't brag about conversions to islam.
Well you are one of the few then, at least on this forum.

Youtube is littered with a lot of personal testimonies though, you cannot deny that.
I wont, I believe there are those who leave Christianity and go to Islam...

search for 'convert to islam story' on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=convert+to+islam+story
absolutely packed with real testimonies.

search for 'convert to christianity story'
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=convert+to+christianity+story
these videos, most of them are 80s movie productions...where is chuck norris and van damme in this shit? and they always present the worst example of islam in this.

look mate, one of my old friends from high school was a roman catholic pakistani, no one gave him trouble, it depends on the people. im aware of one guy in bradford who became christian and his home was vandalised, by yobs/hooligans, those types are not really practicing muslims anyway.
First off I disagree that all the testimonies of Christians are fake, that nonsense, millions of Ex Muslims do convert, but what you dont like to accept is the fact that MANY of them WONT be making these personal Youtube blogs because they can DIE for doing so. You say that when converts from Islam are attacked by others for converting they are not real Muslims, I dont really buy that because that is a REALITY in much of the Islam Dominate parts of the World. This is what I think, I think that countries and areas that are 80-100% Muslims, their Culture IS A REFLECTION of how Islam IS supposed to be practiced. What I find online is Western Muslims denying how Islam is PRACTICED in the Middle East as being the correct way Islam is to be practiced. The reality is it is Western Muslims who do NOT practice Islam the way it is SUPPOSED to be practiced, the way it HAS been practiced for centuries and the way it is PRESERVED in Islamic Dominate Countries and Areas.

You are a Western Muslim, you make cases AGAINST how Islam is actually practiced in the Middle East, I dont know if there is any Middle Eastern Muslims on this site, and I dont think there really ever has been save maybe one or two in the past almost 10 years. And if my recollection is correct that one guy was HONEST in the fact that he legit defended all the practices and culture and didnt shy away from how Islam was practiced and in his opinion SHOULD be practiced. The facts are bro, to convert in Islam in the places of which Islam began and are the mass majority of the population, is a death sentence, but you wonder why there arent as many "real" at home testimonies of it happening?

Can you? don't go showing me examples of Isis or some shit like that Show me how it happens in every day Pakistan for example.
To be honest I expect nothing less than you dismiss what I post as Fake News or Propaganda, that is the reaction of every Muslim when faced with the reality of how Islam is really practiced. Lets start not even in Islam Dominate countries, lets start in Germany where we have waves of REAL Muslims pouring in with some converting and what they have to face as Christians by REAL Muslims:

http://www.dw.com/en/christian-refugee-converts-in-germany-face-violent-attacks/a-38725243

For example, a graffiti on one of the victims' walls reads, "It is time to kill the non-believers." Entry to the bathroom, showers or the kitchen has been restricted with the words, "The impure cannot enter," written on the doors. Converts are made to hear Islamic prayers or verses from the Quran, played through mobile phones. Those not wearing headscarves or openly wearing crosses are subject to harsh accusations. Apart from insults and abuses, there are knife attacks, and every now and then, death threats.

Representatives of church organizations helping refugees told DW that such incidents occur quite often. The "Iraner Seelsorge" in Hannover, which counsels refugees from Iran, reported a case in which a young convert was bullied at school for so long that he had to leave it. At the Evangelical-Lutheran-Trinity community in Berlin’s Steglitz area, Pastor Gottfried Martens complains that victims reporting such cases were not taken seriously.

Last year, the head of the German Bishops' Conference, Cardinal Reinhard Marx, as well as the Evangelical Church in Germany’s Heinrich-Bedford Strohm admitted to cases of intimidation and violence against Christian refugees. One was taking it seriously, but did not yet have a clear picture of the extent of the religious conflict. The basic idea of the churches was that these were isolated incidents which were causing worry.

"The isolated case theory has been disproved," said Ado Greve in a conversation with DW. Greve is a spokesman for the non-denominational Christian charity "Open Doors" in Kelkheim, a suburb of Frankfurt. The organization attempts to give a voice to Christian minorities around the world. No one had ever expected Germany to have a role to play in this. When complaints about the discrimination of Christian refugees wouldn’t stop, Open Doors decided to get some figures on its own. The first attempt was publicly criticized because of supposedly unreliable data. But on October 2016, the organization followed up with a second publication. "Fifty-six percent spoke about physical attacks and 83 percent of those who we questioned admitted that they were attacked several times," Ado Greve said.

When pointed out that this information was based only on 750 conversations, Greve responded with a counter question: "How many affected refugees do we need so we do not treat these as isolated cases anymore? Five hundred? One thousand?" This is a pointless and also a humiliating discussion. Every case is one too many. One did not also claim at any point in time that this was a representative survey. It is also not relevant how bad the attacks would be. Even a death threat can do enormous damage to the person. Because in the countries, where the attackers and their victims come from, the threats are often followed by deeds.

The Christian asylum seekers questioned by Open Doors came mostly from Iran (304), from Syria (263) and Afghanistan (63).
That is REALITY of converts and Christians who are dealing with REAL Muslims, constantly harassed, attacked, bullied and even murdered. This is an EVERYDAY thing in Germany right now, but you want to tell me these arent REAL Muslims? Look at where they were coming from, Iran, Syria and Afghanistan, these ARE Real Muslims period, and this type of action is HOW Islam IS practiced all over the world..

Is this not real?

https://egyptianstreets.com/2015/11/23/a-mother-of-two-has-been-killed-for-converting-marrying-a-coptic-christian-in-egypt/

Marwa Ahmed, 26, has reportedly been killed by her family after converting to Christianity and marrying a man from Fayoum, Egypt.

According to al-Tahrir, Marwa had moved to Alexandria from the town of Tamiyyah with her Coptic Christian partner three years ago. Since then, she had given birth to a boy and girl.

Eshhad, an online platform that aggregates and collates alleged religious persecution and sectarian attacks in Egypt, reports that Marwa was killed nearly two weeks ago by her uncle and cousins when they learned of her short visit back to Tamiyyah.

Marwa had gone to Tamiyyah to visit her husband’s family. Knowing of threats against her life, Marwa was taken by her father to her brother’s home for 10 days in Qalubiya for her protection. However, Marwa’s uncle eventually found her location and kidnapped her. Eshhad reports that the uncle then forced Marwa’s youngest sister to “kill her to ‘punish’ her for her conversion [to Christianity].” Al-Masry Al-Youm, however, reports that it was the uncle that killed Marwa.

Following the murder, Marwa’s father went to the police to inform them of the murder. However, the uncle is reportedly on the run.

Meanwhile, a ‘reconciliation’ settlement between the family of the Christian husband and Marwa’s family has resulted in the deportation of the Christian family to another city in order to avoid any possible sectarian clashes as a result of the murder, reported Al-Masry Al-Youm.
They arent real Muslims either I suppose right?

How about the top cleric of Iraq what does he think about Christians and what should happen to them let alone leaving Islam to Christianity?

Almost 200 Iraqi Christian families filed a lawsuit against the head of Iraq’s Shia Endowment, Sheikh Alaa Al-Mousawi, on charges of incitement of sectarian violence against Christians after he used rhetoric reminiscent of extremist group Daesh and called for religious minorities to either convert to Islam or be killed.

Al-Mousawi, who is in charge of the government body which maintains all of Iraq’s Shia holy sites, including mosques, Huseiniyas and schools, sparked anger as he declared Christians to be “infidels” during a religious sermon he gave in southern Iraq, according to local media.

The senior government appointed Shia cleric described the Christians as “infidels and polytheists” and stressed the need for “jihad” against them. He has also said that “Jews and Christians” must be fought and killed if they do not accept Islam, with the same fate awaiting Zoroastrians as well as Sabians, another Iraqi religious community.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170517-shia-cleric-iraq-christians-infidels-who-must-convert-or-be-killed/

I am sure you have an excuse as to why he isnt a Real Muslim, bet he would want you dead for what you tho and declare you a Fake Muslim...

I am sure none of this is true, all Fake News:

Hakan (not his real name) was disowned by his parents when he converted from Islam to Christianity.

"They said 'go away, you're not our son.' They told people I died in an accident rather than having the shame of their son leaving Islam."

Sophia, which is not her real name, faced similar pressures when she decided to become a Christian.

"They kept saying: 'The punishment is death, do you know the punishment is death?'"

Last week, British teacher Daud Hassan Ali, 64, was shot dead in Somalia. His widow, Margaret Ali, said her husband was targeted by Islamists who "believe it is ok to kill any man who was born into Islam and left the faith".

A poll conducted by the Policy Exchange last year suggested that over a third of young British Muslims believe that the death penalty should apply for apostasy.

We talked to researcher Ziya Meral about experiences of apostates, as he was just finishing a report called No Place to Call Home. He had interviewed 28 apostates in six different countries as part of a year-long research project.

His report found that although the death penalty is rarely applied through the courts, apostates still face gross and wide-ranging human rights abuses at the hands of the state, radical groups and local communities."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7355515.stm

So at least 1/3 of young British Muslims are not real Muslims I suppose? I contend I purposefully quoted this article because it does give a case to say the death penalty isnt warranted, but what does Islam IN PRACTICE look like? Human rights abuses at the hands of the state, groups and local communities for those who leave Islam.

I can sit here and link hundreds of these real life cases, this IS how Islam IS Practiced point blank period. And it is justified by way of Islamic Text that have been interpreted to allow such horrors. These are REAL Muslims, practicing Islam in the way it has been praciticed since its inception. Of course I dont believe you will concede these facts, just more of the same as I have heard for years, its not real, its propaganda, or they are not really practicing Islam. My stance is, if this is happening in the majority of Muslim dominate areas THAT IS how Islam is practiced, what you say is Islam is NOT Islam...

As for Pakistan here you go, Christians murdered for being Christians:

Sheikhupura (Agenzia Fides) - A 17-year-old Christian student was beaten and tortured to death by a group of six Pakistani police officers in the village of Jhubhran, near the city of Sheikhupura, in Pakistani Punjab. The boy was called Arslan Masih and attended a public Academy.
As reported to Fides by Christian lawyer Sardar Mushtaq Gill, who is following the case, "the boy's family denounced the murder but the reconstruction of the facts seems rather difficult because the police are reluctant to taking legal action against the policemen who beat Arslan Masih to death".
According to a first reconstruction, there had been a dispute between Arslan Masih and a policeman’s children in past days. For revenge, six policemen arrived at the Academy that Arslan attended and began to beat him until the young man died. According to another version, Arslan did not stop at a checkpoint and the police followed and brutalized him, then left his body in front of the Academy. In addition a policeman accused Arslan of having sexually abused his son, but the accusation is false and completely unfounded, repeat Arslan's family members.
Lawyer Gill tells Fides: "We firmly condemn this brutality carried out by the police in Punjab who kill innocent Christians counting on the fact that Christians, the weakest in society, can do nothing and that violence will remain unpunished. We demand justice for a poor Christian student killed by policemen".
This is not an isolated episode: among the other clamorous episodes still unpunished, in March 2015, 20-year-old Christian Zubair Masih was tortured to death by the police. The young man's mother had previously been accused of stealing gold from her Muslim employer’s home, where she was employed as a housekeeper. The police beat him and tried to force him to confess. (PA) (Agenzia Fides, 10/10/2017)
http://www.fides.org/en/news/63044-ASIA_PAKISTAN_A_Christian_student_tortured_and_killed_by_the_police

More?

The small community of Christians in a remote village were forced to run for their lives after a crowd of more than 1000 people gathered outside their homes and demanded they convert to Islam.

Campaigners say three quarters of the 300-strong population have now had to flee and are starving in the countryside without food or water, adding that they are only alive at all thanks to the intervention of riot police.

Meanwhile an Islamic death sentence decree known as a fatwa has been issued against the young man at the centre of the storm, with Imams ordering that he be brought before them and burnt alive for insulting the Koran.

As a result, last Friday a lynch mob of more than 1,000 angry men turned up outside the Christian enclave in the village of Chak where he lived, and were only prevented from attacking and killing the community after Government riot police intervened and drove them away.

Since then it is reported the entire Muslim community in the village have begun boycotting the 45 Christian families, refusing to buy from or sell to them and threatening to attack their homes and churches.

Imran and his family have now been forced to go into hiding whilst local Imams attempt to level criminal charges of blasphemy against them, and those Christians still left in Chak say they now fear for their lives.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/669921/Pakistan-Muslim-lynch-mob-chase-Christians-homes-demanding-convert-Facebook

Real life, all over a supposed slight against Muhammad, now hundreds of people are fearing for their lives in Pakistan. Fake News tho right? I dont expect much sympathy, I dont even expect acknowledgement considering you act like I cant find one article of this type of thing happening...

He's talking about the anti-christ, link it to Matthew 24 and Jesus is talking generally about the whole world. You can't claim what Jesus said, aimed at jewish people was exclusively meant to be about your version of christianity in our time it applies to everyone who believes in these same themes. Ie Jesus is the messiah and then there is the anti-christ.
Paul is talking about a falling away from the Faith of Jesus Christ, of Christianity, it has nothing to do with Islam. The point is before Jesus comes back there will be a falling away of Christians, and that is what we see today, however there will be a great event that will cause many to fall away at once right when the Anti Christ comes. I believe that will be an inclusion of the Strong Delusion that will come, of which will cause all but the True Believers in Christ to fall away and accept the Antichrist. Thus all Muslims will accept the Anti Christ and all the false lukewarm Christians will fall away from the Faith, as in the Bible the whole world accepts the Antichrist except a small number of True Christians. I can speculate on what cause that but its at best speculation and should be left for a different thread.

However the point I was making is the Bible say that there will be a decline or a falling away from Christianity. You can interpret it however you want, but you are wrong as it has zero to do with your made up Religion or Islam...

Actually come to think of it, in Revelation 11 the 2 witnesses/prophets story, to me it is not literal but symbolic of 2 religions who believe in Jesus Christ. 2 gentile religions that trample over the temple mount.
This is symbolic of christianity and islam. They are both attacked by the anti-christ.
No, the Bible never mentions Islam other than it being accursed as it clearly teaches against the Gospel of Christ no matter how badly you butcher both Christianity and Islam in your desire to marry them together. The 2 witnesses definitely dont represent Islam and Christianity if it did then I guess you want to concede that Islam is going to die off? You willing to state that right now? The World will destroy Islam 100% and boast how Islam has been destroyed?

Yeah I dont see you coping to that bro...

I agree that there will be a Fake Jewish Messiah, the AntiChrist, I whole heartedly disagree with Islamic Prophecy, as Jesus will come back and proclaim Himself God, there is no second character which Islam brings to the table.

Jesus said
So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Yes He said that to the Jews who at that time were under the Law, we are no longer under Law but Grace. He how justifies himself by the Law has fallen from Grace...

In islam, it is obligatory from our spiritual perspective but it isn't meant to be forced on us.
Ok so here we go again with your opinion your PERSONAL opinion on how things OUGHT to go vs the REALITY of how Islam is actually practiced all over the world. The FACTS are, these are MANDATORY and can actually bring punishment if not followed. The FACTS are Muslims DEMAND that others convert and follow these MANDATORY practices or face consequences from fines to imprisonment to assaults to death. I appreciate the info but that literally means NOTHING when it comes to how Islam is actually practiced and enforced in the MASSS Majority of the World.

So my point stands, I would and do object to any Religious Ritual that is FORCED upon me or anyone else for any reason.

It's wrong to judge us and our idea of an islamic theocracy based on those examples.
I judge you and Islamic Theocracy based on how it has been implemented not only in recent History but throughout all of History since its inception. I abhor ANY Theocracy in our time in which God Himself isnt the literal King presiding over it. Thus the ONLY Theocracy I will ever think ISNT absolutely of the Devil is when Jesus Christ Himself Returns and sets up His Kingdom and He reigns as King, because He is God and thus everything will be carried out perfectly in accordance to perfect judgement. I hate your Islamic Theocracy just as I hate the Catholic Theocracy and just as I hate the upcoming Jewish Theocracy, which really will be the combination of the Islamic, Catholic and Jewish Theocracies under the god they all worship, Satan...

it's similar with David where the jews say that inr eality David didnt commit adultery..so what gives?
Here is what I think of all of that:

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar

The Word of God is perfect and holy and true, I literally care less what the Pharisees who killed Jesus and of whom Jesus said rejected the Word of God to follow their own vain ideas instead of what He has written. And lets be clear, THAT is who you are quoting, the Pharisees. David did commit adultery, Solomon fell into idolatry, and both of those actions LITERALLY have fulfillment later in the History of Israel and the Word of God. Saying these things didnt take place completely destroys why so many things happen in the Bible. Why the Kingdom is split into two, why Davids family all ends up turning on each other, and on and on I can go. The only thing that gives is that the Pharisees are liars but if you want to believe them over the Word of God then so be it...

No, it isn't normal.
Yes it is...

It does happen (marriage to minors i mean) but not in developed society and it is a big topic now amongst muslims and it is viewed as wrong by the vast majority except a few. That's an important point.
Lie, it happens in Europe all the time by Muslims, is Europe not a developed society. You live in Britain right? I could be wrong, well I assume you believe you live in a developed society correct? It happens there all the time...

More than a dozen Muslim clerics at some of the biggest mosques in Britain have been caught on camera agreeing to marry off girls as young as 14.

Undercover reporters filming a documentary about the prevalence of forced and underage marriage in Britain for the television program ITV Exposure secretly recorded 18 Muslim imams agreeing to perform an Islamic marriage, known as a nikah, between a 14-year-old girl and an older man.

Campaigners against forced marriage -- which is not yet a crime in Britain -- say thousands of underage girls -- including some under the age of five -- are being forced to marry against their will in Muslim nikahs every year, and that the examples exposed by the documentary represent just "the tip of the iceberg."

The documentary, entitled "Forced to Marry," was first broadcast on October 9 and involves two reporters posing as the mother and brother of a 14-year-old girl to be married to an older man. The reporters contacted 56 mosques across Britain and asked clerics to perform a nikah. The imams were specifically told that the "bride" did not consent to the marriage to an older man from London.

Although the legal age for marriage in Britain is 16, according to Islamic Sharia law girls can marry once they reach puberty. The imams who agreed to marry the girl openly mocked the legitimacy of British law, reflecting the rise of a parallel Islamic legal system in Britain.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4017/uk-muslim-underage-marriage

Thats just ONE article in hundreds that can be shown and thats JUST in your backyard, read the article, a freaking documentary was made on it for crying out loud! This IS common place, you can lie all you want, you can downgrade it all you want, you can ignore it all you want but marrying and raping children IS a reality and IS a normal practice in Islam. Even Islam practiced in your backyard...

I get your point but evil done by muslims doesn't reflect islam.
I would 100% agree if it wasnt an Evil that is perpetually perpetrated since the rise of Islam, done by a HUGE % of Muslims and condoned and supported by those who are considered Priest, or leaders or teachers of how Islam is SUPPOSED to be practiced.

Just like if we could look into a Christian Holy Text and pick a few verses that say we can r*pe Children or Wed Children and then went to all the Ministers and Priests and asked them if they would or we should be able to r*pe and wed children and they all for the most part agreed that we could and then stated they would help us subvert existing laws in our countries so we can r*pe and wed these children, that would be a reflection of Christianity itself and NOT just Evil done by Christians. That IS what happens in Islam because it is a refection of Islam itself, not just the Evils of the people. The Evil of Islam allows the Evil of the people to be a COMMON PLACE PRACTICE...

that's like judging the Moses for what pharisees did.
Except there is no Holy Text that allows for what the Pharisees did, the Text rejects it point blank. However in Islam the text are supporting it, over and over and over, not just one or two but dozens and if it didnt then it would NOT be a prevalent ideology that stems from the beginning of Islam...

All I see are Muslims or should I say WESTERN Muslims trying desperately to reinterpret these clear Texts to make them NOT say what they say which is that Muhammad married a 6 yr old and had sex with her at 9. There are all sorts of lame excuses given, oh that was just how the Culture was at that time, or like you are doing, thats not really what the text meant ect ect ect. Heres the reality, if Muhammad WOULD NOT HAVE had sex with a Child then NO ONE would be insisting he did who practice Islam, period ...

See in this case your only argument is to just keep repeating it like it's a fact, like you don't even believe the Quran was divinely revealed but the hadith are definitely 100% true with no mistakes or no manipulation within them? come on huh?
Look brother it is not ME that you have to contend with it is ISLAM and the MUSLIMS that support and uphold and PRACTICE this horrible garbage. I am just pointing out the FACTS, which is rather simple to understand, if Muhammad wasnt raping Children himself, then there would NOT be a HUGE MASSIVE Cultural practice of Millions upon Millions of LEGIT Muslims doing what he had done. They r*pe children because he raped children. Do I care if the Hadiths are inspired nope not at all, but guess who DOES believe the Hadiths are inspired? BILLIONS OF MUSLIMS, your contention is with them not me. I just hate what Islam has done to untold number of children who have been raped for eons because of the practice and condoning of one man...

Raping, paedophillia, just as much common amongst white people.
Oh no brother, we are not talking about a Black White thing, or even a Culture thing, we are talking about a RELIGIOUS PRACTICE, a Religious Practice that allows for followers of said Religion to r*pe children uninhibited regardless if they are white black yellow red or purple. Christianity does not in anyway support the wholesale r*pe of children by adult men, in fact it literally condemns it with Jesus saying its better to put a stone around your neck and be thrown into the sea than hurt a child. Islam on the other hand patently allows for, and supports the wholesale raping of children with their Religious Leaders right there helping to "marry" these children off to be raped by adult males. The only thing that ought to be coming out of your mouth about this is, all of them deserve to be locked up or face the death penalty period. No excuses no trying to get me to rationalize why this is happening. Condemn it and condemn the RELIGION that allows and supports its PRACTICE...

i agree with you
when i question hadith here, my beliefs get called 'dubious' by other muslims. when i quote from the bible, ive been accused of being a non-muslim. eitherway a fair few here don't like me.
I agree generally that muslims are hypocritical when quoting from the hadith BUT there is nothing wrong with using hadith as historical markers AS LONG AS you're aware of context.
Well we can agree on this, I of course think the Hadiths are garbage, and that the Quran isnt divinely inspired whatsoever, however when I enter into a debate with a Muslim, you can be sure anything in the Bible I take as the Word of God. Yet the same clear understanding is not afforded me when quoting from the Hadiths, if they dont like what it says atm its fake until it can be proven useful in a different scenario then its legit.

And of course they question your Faith, because as I keep saying you are NOT a Muslim and all the Muslims know it and will tell that to you lol you can call yourself whatever you want but you wont be accepted by Muslims because you dont actually believe in Islam, you believe in your own invented idea of what Islam ought to be or is, but it is an Islam that is foreign to 99% of all Muslims...

I can call myself a Christian but if I reject 75% of the Doctrine that is understood as legit in Christianity then adhere to a bunch of Doctrines from Islam and Gnosticism and the Occult, well then I can say whatever I want but I really am not a Christian...

How on earth have I created a new religion? lmao.
Ive explained it above and multiple times on here, you are not a Muslim, you made up your own Religion, hence why the Muslims reject you as do the Christians, the Gnostics, and if we had blatant Occultists on here they would reject you to. You have made up your own brand and unique Religion all for yourself.

you can pretend the land doesnt matter now but your people crusaded for hundreds of years
No sir, the Catholics are not my people, they MURDERED my people, you know those who owned the Bible for themselves and rejected Catholicism? Yeah buddy, it was CHRISTIANS that were murdered during the Inquistion, so stop saying my people were fighting for Jerusalem. Also I reject the Templar Knights aka an arm of what we on this site refer to as the Illuminati (yes I understand that the Illuminati hadnt officially formed but I hope you understand my point and arent caught up in semantics) aka a controlling arm of the Vatican. Not my people, you can claim them I suppose, but no thanks not mine...

side note, it doesnt prove Jesus is God. This is why i accuse you of being theologically dishonest and posessing tunnel vision.
It does, who called Jerusalem to come under His wings?

Psalm 91:4
He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.

Psalm 17:8
Keep me as the apple of the eye; Hide me in the shadow of Your wings

Psalm 36:7
How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.

Psalm 57:1
Be gracious to me, O God, be gracious to me, For my soul takes refuge in You; And in the shadow of Your wings I will take refuge Until destruction passes by.

Psalm 61:4
For You have been my help, And in the shadow of Your wings I sing for joy.

Psalm 63:7
For You have been my help, And in the shadow of Your wings I sing for joy.

Thats right YHWH is said to be the one calling Jerusalem to come under His wings, and then we see Jesus saying He is the one calling them under His wings, why? Because Jesus is YHWH.

You can call me Theologically Dishonest all you want, I am not the one that is trying to take to clearly antithetical Religions and breaking and twisting their independent Doctrines in hopes of making the Square peg fit into the Circle hole. No one on Earth agrees with your Theology, no Muslims and no Christians but yeah you go ahead and say I am the one who is Theologically Dishonest lol

how on earth that makes him God himself when he comes in the name of the Lord? only in the mind of a theologically dishonest person.
In whos name shall God Himself come AS? Anothers name? You want to tell me that if God were to come as a man that He ought to come in anothers name and NOT in the name of the Lord? But you missed the point, I tried to clarify it...

The enemies of the jewish people, were the romans, who then became christian, get it?
Really so JUST the Romans were the enemies of the Jewish people? Man you might want to go back and read the Bible and History. Pretty much everyone that is now considered Muslims were the enemies of the Jews.

So clearly Jesus said that it would be taken and given to people who will produce it's fruit.
Nope your whole thesis I disagree with, Jesus is talking of the KINGDOM of God, tell me is the KINGDOM OF GOD something physical that you can see or not?

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If the Kingdom which is what Jesus is talking about was physical then guess what, there would have been a war for Jerusalem. Instead Jesus said the Kingdom which once was belonging to the Israelities have now been taken from them and given to those who would produce its fruit, aka Christians, Spiritually. Christians didnt possess Jerusalem, Rome hated Christians man what History are you on? Rome has always and will always MURDER OFF Christians. Remember the Catholic Church is NOT Christian, in fact they are a creation of the Pharisees, Ive written about that before. Rome murdered off the Christians until the Pharisees created and tried to highjack Christianity via Catholicism and they still MURDERED off Christians that didnt convert to their False Religion.

So...that would in effect mean you were supposed to posess whatever the jews once posessed esp Jerusalem.
Nope not according to Jesus, Ill go with Him not you...

maybe it's bad for all of us who are in the wrong, justg like he will reject most of you so called christians who call him 'lord'
so where does that leave you?
Lol bro you need to stop with that nonsense, one verse that says He will reject some who call Him Lord doesnt equate to the massive whole of Christians being rejected. Please stop, we have been over this you are falling into Kung Fu territory, dont be intellectually dishonest. You want to know the ones who would be rejected that call Him Lord? He is talking about people like Joel Olsteen, and Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland all these fake TV Evangelists who are out here doing these things in His name but not for His Glory. That are using His name to achieve worldly wealth and glory of men. That is what Jesus is talking about, not regular people who genuinely love Him and follow Him and are out here laboring for His Glory and to bring more souls into the Kingdom. If you bring this up again I can only say you are purposefully being deceitful and are intellectually dishonest in your approach towards the discussion and use of that verse...

you have no proof from the bible that Jesus will one day fight against islam in the way you are implying, but you do have proof he will reject many christians.
that says it all about you.
The Bible is clear that Jesus destroys all the enemies that come against Him, Islam is directly pitted against the Jesus of the Bible. You can make any twisting of Islamic Doctrine you want but all of Islam rejects your personal thesis, your personal religion. Want to know what the Bible says about calling Jesus Lord? You either do it now and be saved or you are going to be force to do so right before you are sent to Hell.

Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Which one are you going to do there AS? Will you call Him your Lord and Savior now, or will you be forced at the Judgement of the Dead when ALL of heaven and earth and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord? Either way bro you WILL call Jesus Lord...

nice, so israel is satanic but then islam is satanic too but both sides are against each other?
Satan controls both sides and is using them like chess pieces to bring in his final New World Order. Would you really like to tell me that Satan hasnt controlled say different countries political leaders and then caused them to go to war to move forward his agenda? He does that ALL THE TIME, is that dividing his kingdom?

Also it would help not to take Jesus out of context there, what was He doing? Casting out Satan, and was accused of being the Devil, how can the Devil cast out the Devil Spiritually and his kingdom not fall? Completely different than using two False Religions which are Politically motivated, to cause war and chaos in the attempt to bring the World to a point where it rejects Abrahamic Religions blaming it as the reason for the chaos, and then ushering in a New World Religion to go along with a New World Government that is supposed to end all the war and misery. That is what Satan is doing, and that is how he is going to get the Anti Christ in power, using Islam and Zionism to bring the world into chaos...

Will Jesus smite the evangelical's who cannot worship israel enough?
I believe the Strong Delusion will immediately bring the evangelicals who Truly Believe in Christ out of their obsession with Israel or for those who dont really believe in Christ, it will cement them as Non Believers and yes Jesus will smite them along with all the Muslims and everyone else who Truly doesnt believe in Him as Lord and Savior...

The way you talk about this idea of the messianic kingdom it's soo wrong.
No its really not...

Muslims are credited with actually saving judaism, that's the irony of it all.
Lol wut? The Religion that says this about Jews in the End Times? Saving them lol thats rich:

In Saheeh Muslim (2922), it is narrated from the hadith of Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The Hour will not begin until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims will kill them, until a Jew hides behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say: O Muslim, O slave of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Except the gharqad (a thorny tree), for it is one of the trees of the Jews.”

Islam is set to destroy all Religions and Nations, it is literally a Religion of Conquest and Blood to establish a Theocracy upon the World forcing everyone to bow to it. Muslims are literally engaging in trying to bring this about, land by land, day by day, week by week and year by year. You can make any excuses you want, try and justify it anyway youd like but History and the World right now shows that whether you call them Real Muslims or not, the HUGE MASS MAJORITY of Practicing Muslims are looking to bring the world into submission to Islam, by any means necessary. Islam is at war with Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and all other Religions. It is at war with all of the West and soon will be at war with the East. Islam has not saved anything other than itself, it has been and will continue to try and destroy all other Religions and Cultures...

No Islam is not the savior of Judaism, its literally trying to murder it off, just like Islamic Holy Texts say outright, even the trees will help to kill off the Jews...

It was Allah's will to make us into 3 distinct religions in order to test us.
Satan created many Religions including Islam and Modern Judaism, in order to lead everyone away from the One True Religion which is found in Christ Jesus....
 






Forever Light

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Messages
857
You're right.

Peace be upon you as well brother.
Like it says in God's Holy Koran.
When He has decreed a plan, then He only says to it "Be", and then it is.

:)

2:117. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: when He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

3:47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He only saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
 






Forever Light

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Messages
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Forever Light

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"begotten" son because Jesus came to earth in flesh
The problem with the word "begotten" is that it could easily be misunderstood.
The correct word therefore to use, is "incarnated":

King of kings' Bible, John
1:14 And the Word was made flesh (incarnated), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only incarnated of the Father) full of Grace and Truth (Nazir in Hebrew).
1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spoke, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was (in existence) before me (before the world was).
1:16 And of his fullness have all we received, and Grace for grace.
1:17 For the Law was given by Moses, [but] Grace and Truth (Nazir in Hebrew) came by Jesus Christ.
1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only incarnated Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [Him].

3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only incarnated Son, that whosoever believeth him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
 






Kung Fu

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Messages
4,298
In fact, the teaching on immaculate conception has never been questioned in the 400 years that the Bible has been translated into English. So to say, " His only begotten Son," was only a way to create a relationship between God and Christ that designates God as a point of origin for His existence; or, that God has unique possession of Christ. It has nothing to do with procreation.
The cope is real. Nice try. A+ for effort.
 






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