Is Jesus the "BEGOTTEN" Son of God?

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#41
"Philip said to Him, 'Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.'

Jesus said to him, 'Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip?
He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

- John 14:8-9 -



The problem is that people do not understand how God can be Three in One.
People do not understand God which after all is understandable.
 





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#44
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
-John 3:16

Christians there's clear problems with this verse. First, God didn't send Himself out of love but out of the ransom that had to be paid to Himself. Second, the word "begotten" is not found in the oldest most complete Bibles but that's the least of the issues with this verse considering the fact the word begotten refers to reproduction in a humanly sense. Since man is made in God's image, according to Christians, well you can guess the rest since it's so foul, I don't even want to write it.

One verse yet so many logical problems. Feel free to explain this to me and try to make sense of it.
The facts are you dont care in the least to make sense or understand anything at all from a Christian perspective, and thus why anyone and everyone who sees your constant posting can quickly discern that you are not intellectually honest. An intellectually honest person would at the very least say, ok I see your point, I can understand why you say or believe in this or that, I disagree and here is why. You however keep bringing up the same exact questions day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year.

With that said, as I have stated before I do appreciate your willful ignorance and constantly repeating yourself like a dementia struck parrot because you allow us to continually preach the Gospel and speak on other doctrine for those who actually want to learn and understand. As I stated we all know you dont care, but please dont stop acting the way you do you are the perfect platform to use to expand upon the Truth of Christ and the doctrines contained within Christianity. As much as it riles up your flesh to make you think you are poking holes in Christianity you are blessing that is continually helping spread the Word, thank you brother Amen!!!

As for what you wrote in the Original Post, many Christians have indeed addressed this topic in multiple ways, here is what I wrote to you a 7 months back. Again dont let this explanation stop you from acting like no one has ever spoken in depths to you about it, we love how obtuse you are, its a blessing to all!!!

You seem to have no concept of what the term beget or to be begotten means in the Word of God. You seem to think it means having sex and then procreating, but that isnt always what it means it definitely doesnt to Christ or in the Old Testament.

What is the word in Greek that is translated begotten in English?

3439 [e]monogenē μονογενῆ ,only begotten

3439 monogenḗs (from 3411 /misthōtós, "one-and-only" and 1085 /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).

It literally means one of a kind, only of its class, unique, none other like it. How do we know this is the meaning for Christ? Because He is also said to be the first begotten from the Dead.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Jesus was procreated from the dead, that makes absolutely no sense, however he was definitely the first of a unique kind, the first to be raised from the Dead. Moreover let us look at the account of Abraham and Isaac on the Mountain, in Gen 22 we see the account of Abraham and Issac, and what does it say about Issac?

Gen 22:1And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son


Now we know that Isaac wasnt Abrahams ONLY Son right? He had Ishmael, so why is God insistent on calling Isaac his ONLY Son? Well we have an account of this in the Greek in Hebrews and look at how it is rendered:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son

Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham, it doesnt mean he was the ONLY BORN of Abraham instead it is in relation to Isaacs unique position in relation to Abraham, in that according to the Bible it is Isaac that is the inheritor of the Promise made to Abraham, and this is why Isaac is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of Abraham. He is the unique relation, one of a kind position to Abraham.

Only Begotten in the understanding of Christ is the absolute unique position, one of a kind relationship that He has with the Father, no one else has this relationship and the reason why Jesus is the Only Begotten is because Jesus is God, He is in a relationship that nothing in all of existence is in with the Father, because Christ was never Created, He has always been, He is Eternal. He is the absolute unique one of a kind being, none other exists in all of creation like Him, because He is both God and Man, He is not an Angel, He is not just a Man, He is set apart, different, solely alone in all of existence.

This is what it means that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, He is the unique one of a kind being, in a unique one of a kind relationship to God. The only possible explanation of the make up of Christ being unique one of a kind in being and relationship is that He is both God and Man, as there is no other being that has the relationship to the Father and is wholly unique in being.
 





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#45
Is Jesus the "BEGOTTEN" Son of God?

In short, No.
"begotten" is word that refers to a human/animal concept and is therefore a very obvious misinterpretation.
God is a Spirit, not a human.

The correct word that should therefore be used, is incarnated not begotten.

John
1:14 And the Word was made flesh (incarnated), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only incarnated of the Father) full of Grace and Truth (Nazir in Hebrew).

1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only incarnated Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [Him].

3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only incarnated Son, that whosoever believeth him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
3:17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the identity of the only incarnated Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. - [KOFK]

If you don't want to be condemned then you had better read "The Way home or face The Fire, By JAH", soon. [LINK]

Time is running out.
 





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#46
Jesus said to him, 'Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip?
He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"
- John 14:8-9 -
John
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.
14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14:14 If ye shall ask any thing (good) in my name, I will do [it].
14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I Live, ye shall live also.
14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given me, that they may be one, as We [are].

17:21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are One:

That we may be one. Even as Christ and Father are one.
That we all may be one, as Father is in him, and as he is in Father, that we also may be one in Them.

When you read it all, it becomes clear that Christ spoke about unity, about being one.
Not about trinity.

20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
 





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#47
The facts are you dont care in the least to make sense or understand anything at all from a Christian perspective, and thus why anyone and everyone who sees your constant posting can quickly discern that you are not intellectually honest. An intellectually honest person would at the very least say, ok I see your point, I can understand why you say or believe in this or that, I disagree and here is why. You however keep bringing up the same exact questions day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year.

With that said, as I have stated before I do appreciate your willful ignorance and constantly repeating yourself like a dementia struck parrot because you allow us to continually preach the Gospel and speak on other doctrine for those who actually want to learn and understand. As I stated we all know you dont care, but please dont stop acting the way you do you are the perfect platform to use to expand upon the Truth of Christ and the doctrines contained within Christianity. As much as it riles up your flesh to make you think you are poking holes in Christianity you are blessing that is continually helping spread the Word, thank you brother Amen!!!

As for what you wrote in the Original Post, many Christians have indeed addressed this topic in multiple ways, here is what I wrote to you a 7 months back. Again dont let this explanation stop you from acting like no one has ever spoken in depths to you about it, we love how obtuse you are, its a blessing to all!!!

You seem to have no concept of what the term beget or to be begotten means in the Word of God. You seem to think it means having sex and then procreating, but that isnt always what it means it definitely doesnt to Christ or in the Old Testament.

What is the word in Greek that is translated begotten in English?

3439 [e]monogenē μονογενῆ ,only begotten

3439 monogenḗs (from 3411 /misthōtós, "one-and-only" and 1085 /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).

It literally means one of a kind, only of its class, unique, none other like it. How do we know this is the meaning for Christ? Because He is also said to be the first begotten from the Dead.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Jesus was procreated from the dead, that makes absolutely no sense, however he was definitely the first of a unique kind, the first to be raised from the Dead. Moreover let us look at the account of Abraham and Isaac on the Mountain, in Gen 22 we see the account of Abraham and Issac, and what does it say about Issac?

Gen 22:1And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son


Now we know that Isaac wasnt Abrahams ONLY Son right? He had Ishmael, so why is God insistent on calling Isaac his ONLY Son? Well we have an account of this in the Greek in Hebrews and look at how it is rendered:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son

Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham, it doesnt mean he was the ONLY BORN of Abraham instead it is in relation to Isaacs unique position in relation to Abraham, in that according to the Bible it is Isaac that is the inheritor of the Promise made to Abraham, and this is why Isaac is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of Abraham. He is the unique relation, one of a kind position to Abraham.

Only Begotten in the understanding of Christ is the absolute unique position, one of a kind relationship that He has with the Father, no one else has this relationship and the reason why Jesus is the Only Begotten is because Jesus is God, He is in a relationship that nothing in all of existence is in with the Father, because Christ was never Created, He has always been, He is Eternal. He is the absolute unique one of a kind being, none other exists in all of creation like Him, because He is both God and Man, He is not an Angel, He is not just a Man, He is set apart, different, solely alone in all of existence.

This is what it means that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, He is the unique one of a kind being, in a unique one of a kind relationship to God. The only possible explanation of the make up of Christ being unique one of a kind in being and relationship is that He is both God and Man, as there is no other being that has the relationship to the Father and is wholly unique in being.

"... like a dementia struck parrot"


:D


He's trying to steal your energy. However, what was intended as evil... :)
 





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#48
The more you post, the more it looks like you have a prearranged religious crusade you are participating in.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all that there isn’t a recruiting process from the Islamic boards to come here and evangelize especially when you consider the history of Muslims coming to this forum to bring the message of Islam. I was reading the board for a while before it shut down last time. It is like an ego driven tag team.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if most of you knew each other before coming to the forum.

I highly doubt most of you met each other here at the forum either. Funny considering how many time you’ve called thunderian a troll that your the one who displays troll behavior the best.

What’s funny is that aside from a few of us who are Christians, most of the people here probably don’t care about these radical attacks against something like the trinity that you seem to think is going to bring in converts in droves.

Didn’t we even have one of the former converts to Islam convert back and try to hide her identity to not offend people when the forum opened? Why do you suppose she isn’t here anymore? Does it damage the ego so much to have someone who actually joined Islam and left Islam around here? You only have to look at some of the early posts In the introduce me thread to see how she was being harassed from the start.

People deserve to know how dirty the Muslim gang plays around here. As a result, for the most part, there is no point in responding to any of you. I just don’t need to waste my time responding to crusade like Muslim debates.

Still your asking us to defend the trinity again. This is a harmless belief to most any logical person. Us silly Christians believe Jesus is the son of god. This harms no one. However, believing that Muhammad married and consummated a relationship with a nine year old could have serious consequences.

I realize it is easier to try to make Christians look stupid to cover up the many dangerous teachings that circulate within Islam that would make the average person cringe.

If anything, the only thing our discussions here do is make people more likely to be atheist or Buddhist. In all honesty, I would accept Buddhism before accepting Islam any day of the week. Asia is an ancient culture that has proven stability. It really just kills me to think of China ever becoming Muslim. That would be a tremendous cultural loss for the Chinese to lose their music, dance, and other customs.

So keep up the good work and don’t feel bad when Islam continues to decline in numbers after a temporary rise. I’ve lived in the west my whole life. I can guarantee you these people don’t want to be forced to pray five times a day or forced to participate in a yearly ridiculous fasting pattern. Spiritual practices like these should not be mandated. There should not ever be laws that require ridiculous fasting patterns.

As Christians, we know Jesus says that hypocrites pray and fast for the approval of others. Spiritual practices should not be enforced by law because the whole point of being spiritual is to have freedom. Islam is bondage. Period.
Do you say the same thing to others like @floss @Daciple and many more?
I see islam get attacked regularly and by you too.
You have a lot of bias against muslims/islam even our culture. Do you even know how rich pakistani and persian muslim culture is? maybe you should travel.
This idea that muslims have no culture is what you've been brainwashed to believe. There are many people who've travelled all over the world and in the end say Pakistan was their fav place...why is that?
eg


Didn’t we even have one of the former converts to Islam convert back and try to hide her identity to not offend people when the forum opened? Why do you suppose she isn’t here anymore? Does it damage the ego so much to have someone who actually joined Islam and left Islam around here? You only have to look at some of the early posts In the introduce me thread to see how she was being harassed from the start.


do you see muslims on here with fake accounts? like how that 'girl' Tanya came here as someone who follows wicca but then magically starts believe in 'the lord and saviour' derp derp. How many accounts has she had before?
srsly please who are you even kidding? I am not saying this with ego but there are thousands of conversion stories on youtube from muslims that are normal stories. it is christians who come out with bad 80s acting style conversion stories which got exposed on youtube and even some christians acknowledged as embarassing and fake.

You have a 100 ergun caner types, you have 100 noonie darwish types and they're all fake.
no, im not saying this in a blind state, i'm someone who always wants to hear people's views but not when they're fake.

I realize it is easier to try to make Christians look stupid to cover up the many dangerous teachings that circulate within Islam that would make the average person cringe.
i do think generally muslims are ignorant of bible based themes.....and interpret the book without understanding...but that can't be said about me, i'm not closed minded or claim to have all the answers but im a genuine seeker and beleive i can alway learn more.

If anything, the only thing our discussions here do is make people more likely to be atheist or Buddhist. In all honesty, I would accept Buddhism before accepting Islam any day of the week. Asia is an ancient culture that has proven stability. It really just kills me to think of China ever becoming Muslim. That would be a tremendous cultural loss for the Chinese to lose their music, dance, and other customs.
was jewish culture, stable? was christian culture, stable? please, this is embarassing.
islam has been in china almost from it's inception and in the far east (indonesia/malaysia) for almost as long..you might want to learn a few things.

So keep up the good work and don’t feel bad when Islam continues to decline in numbers after a temporary rise. I’ve lived in the west my whole life. I can guarantee you these people don’t want to be forced to pray five times a day or forced to participate in a yearly ridiculous fasting pattern. Spiritual practices like these should not be mandated. There should not ever be laws that require ridiculous fasting patterns.
wow
seriously wow
do you talk against jewish religious obligations too?
Jesus said it is better to take our your eye if it causes you to sin, than risk going to hell.
sure, this isn't an obligation, but it is a mindset he posessed of self-mortification to defeat our carnal/sinful nature...but yeh let's promote music and dance and hate on religious rules.

You've never experienced the month of ramadan as a muslim,so it's one of those things you cannot judge. You present this in the worst way possible.

'forced to pray 5 times a day'

When im not able to keep up with my prayer, it's when im generally lacknig discipline and not even really spending that time productively.
when im praying, i'm also on top of my game in everything else. I eat clean, exercise, meditate, my focus and how i feel is completely different. It's also very easy to keep up prayer, it's only difficult if you're accustomed to being lazy and heedless..and ive been there...it isnt a good place to be really.

As Christians, we know Jesus says that hypocrites pray and fast for the approval of others. Spiritual practices should not be enforced by law because the whole point of being spiritual is to have freedom. Islam is bondage. Period

yes, praying and charity for show is wrong, but the Quran says that too
(2) Not those who spend of their substance, to be seen of men, but have no faith in Allah and the Last Day: If any take the Evil One for their intimate, what a dreadful intimate he is!
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #38
)
3) The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over-reach them: When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance;
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #142)

when we pray in congregation, it's what in our heart and mind that matters.



Lastly about the age of aisha...the hadith are historical sources of information. It's important to read them with a mind on the historical contexts too, so for example aisha is still till this day accused of adultery by shia who hate her because she was Abu Bakr's daughter.
The abbasids created this story via the hadith of her age, to present her as a 'pure virgin'.
I won't get into my opinion on hadith overall, but the hadiths of her age are from the same body of hadith (saheeh bukhari) that says this

(3) Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Quran)." (Book #8, Hadith #465)
Abu Bakr was Mohammad's best friend and the 3rd person to accept the call to islam.

Before you think to judge my views..i am the type who always reads both sides, for and against...so i'll often read the christian response.
in this case all they've said is 'this hadith is incorrectly translated but in reality means something else'

there are multiple opinions..you yourself are fully aware of other muslim sources which say she was older.
I certainly do not believe Mohammad SAW married a child anymore than i believe Solomon did what he is purported to have done.

There isn't another person in this world with the body of work written about him than Mohammad SAW. Jesus doesn't come close (and id n't mean in rank but in comparison to what is written about him).


btw, you people have a complete obsession with islam. The extent you'll go to to attack my religion proves it is the true religion...the biggest evidence however is that Allah/God granted muslims control of the temple mount for the longest period.
You know full well that God never allowed wicked people to have the land for very long. He always punished the jews when they had it and sinned....so why the hell would he let the wrong religion take it for over 1200 years? Why would he in addition to this watch on as christians (the right religion in your view) go to war in the city but in the end....lose it?
 





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#49
@AspiringSoul

I am not saying this with ego but there are thousands of conversion stories on youtube from muslims that are normal stories. it is christians who come out with bad 80s acting style conversion stories which got exposed on youtube and even some christians acknowledged as embarassing and fake.

You have a 100 ergun caner types, you have 100 noonie darwish types and they're all fake.
no, im not saying this in a blind state, i'm someone who always wants to hear people's views but not when they're fake.


Marinate for a moment on this concept you have illustrated above: Christians are somehow responsible for fake/non-Christians who mock Christianity by creating ridiculous, fake videos for a political tool. Actual Christians, according to You, have pointed them out as frauds. And that makes Christians-- all of them-- not nice or normal (like Muslims). Really? o_O
 





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#50
Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever is reading let him observe)..
Matt. 24:15

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Cor. 3:16

Not so sure we're speaking of a building, here.
 





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#51
Do you say the same thing to others like @floss @Daciple and many more?
Excuse you? Where do you get this idea that I am regularly "attacking" Islam? Especially anywhere near the degree Kung Fu constantly trolls Christianity? Here, do me a favor, link me to ONE thread I have created that "attacks" Islam, just one. Ill wait, forever... Do I mention my viewpoints in passing here or there as to my opinion of Islam or Muhammad? Indeed just as I am about to because my name was brought up and the topic revolves around it atm but to speak my opinion in passing of which amounts to less than at most 10% of what I write, more than likely closer to 2-5% is nothing in comparison to what we see on the forums right now concerning negative or dissenting opinions of Christianity. Just on Threads alone Id say there is 6-10 clearly negative or dissenting Threads against Christianity outright, and thats not including the continual troll fest that happens in most of the other Threads not directly aimed against Christianity. Whereas I count 2 clearly negative or dissenting Threads against Islam.

The point being that while I personally do not care about the fact that AS IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN on VC for going on 10 years, there is much more negative and dissenting Threads and posts against Christianity, (in my opinion that just par for the course, the Truth of Christ has been and always will be hated on) to say that Islam is ever trolled as hard as Christianity is nonsense, its never been close. With that said I implore you to keep my name out of your mouth when it comes to trying to paint me as the type to create multiple threads and make post after post after post being critical of Islam. Heres the facts, I hardly write about Islam, especially on this iteration of the board, why? Because I truly do not care about it, I have made my views known, and have no problem stating them when needed, ask or feel its necessary, but I for one do not ever go out of my way to create Threads or multiple posts "attacking" Islam. 90-95% of my post revolve around Christian topics, mostly split between correcting Muslim posters and trolls who keep bringing up the same ideals over and over like willfully ignorant fools, or simply preaching the Gospel in the ONE of two Threads I myself have created on this board. The other Thread being created to publish my Testimony...

You ask her this, but do YOU say anything about the constant trolling done by Kung Fu mainly and some of the other Muslims here? If not (which is the case) then you are being exceedingly hypocritical in asking if she admonishes other Christians for expressing opinions that could be seen as "negative" concerning Islam. Lets see you admonish Kung Fu for a few weeks before any Christian will worry about admonishing one another for critical posts towards Islam. Not that I actually think any admonishment needs to be done because well its a Forum Board people will post ideals and thoughts and threads and post critical of one another beliefs all day long, its kind of the point...

do you see muslims on here with fake accounts?
Oh yes, we sure do, but its amazing how the Muslims dont seem to care or defend him when he comes back with his constant fake accounts lol Pot meet Kettle...

I am not saying this with ego but there are thousands of conversion stories on youtube from muslims that are normal stories. it is christians who come out with bad 80s acting style conversion stories which got exposed on youtube and even some christians acknowledged as embarassing and fake.

You have a 100 ergun caner types, you have 100 noonie darwish types and they're all fake.
no, im not saying this in a blind state, i'm someone who always wants to hear people's views but not when they're fake.
This is the same ridiculous nonsense always given to ANY type of conversion from Islam to Christianity, Please, yall need to accept that MILLIONS of once Muslims are converting to Christianity, and not only are they converting they are DYING for converting cuz you know those who practice Islam in the Middle East make it Law to kill those who convert from Islam. Can we link dozens of stories, and real life videos of Muslims who have converted then get stoned, murdered and the like for rejecting Islam and accepting Christ? Yes we can, but guess what you and every Muslims response to that will be? AHHH FAKE NEWS or some other ridiculous excuse to either justify the murdering or downplay it or try and act as tho that isnt reality.

Ready for a concession? I believe indeed there are those who claimed to be Christians that later have converted to Islam, so be it. Unlike Muslims I am comfortable to make this concession because it is a reality and it definitely means NOTHING to Christianity nor does it in anyway affect my Faith, not in the slightest. You know how I view Muslims on this topic? As people who are so weak in their Faith that they need to insist that no one or hardly anyone can or does convert from their Faith and then make grandiose claims about how much Islam is growing just to convince themselves they are on the right track in their Faith. Essentially when I see Muslims act this way (which after years of debating yall on this forum is ALL THE TIME) it reminds me of the bully at school who is with his little gang of bullies who isnt really confident in himself and knows that no one really likes him, so when confronted by outsiders or from his own gang he tries to puff himself up by trying to either instill fear in his peers or by outright lying about his influence to hide his complete and total insecurities in everything he thinks of himself. It screams weakness, not that I think any of you will take this advice but your better off not to act in such a way because to everyone other than those in your little gang, it makes us think you have no real confidence in what you are telling others to believe in....

Also in trying to make the rate of conversion or exceeding or lack of growth of Faith as a pissing contest between Christianity and Islam is of no use when speaking to Christians, there is this crazy thing called the Word of God that we abide by, it says this concerning the pissing contest you wish to boast yourselves about:

2 Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


So Christianity is on the decline, while Islam is on the increase, its almost as if God already told us that this would happen, wow, thanks for pointing out that the Word of God is correct!!! To let you Muslims know every single time you try and make this a point about your Religion being correct as opposed to Christianity, you essentially are proving that the Bible is correct about what it has predicted. In other words you keep putting a foot in your mouth every time you make this declaration, but by all means ye Muslims, keep proving the Word of God correct, we appreciate the effort you folks go to to discredit the Word of God but then continually show it as True. Keep up the good work guys!!!

do you talk against jewish religious obligations too?
I for one would if it was forced upon others by way of Religious Theocracy as is the case with Islam. Also in case you missed it the New Testament is replete with passages discouraging Jewish Religious obligations being forced upon others...

I certainly do not believe Mohammad SAW married a child anymore than i believe Solomon did what he is purported to have done.
Guess that would be the difference between us, I have no problem accepting that Solomon did exactly what the Word of God straight up said he did, just like I have no doubt that Muhammad had sex with a child, which is a NORMAL PRACTICE TODAY in much of the World in which Islam is the predominate culture and Religion. Id be much more willing to accept he didnt do this if Islam itself didnt testify to it by the sheer fact that millions of children are wed and raped in Islam dominate countries and areas. By raped I mean I dont believe a 6-13 yr old child can consent to an adult male having sex with her, aka he is raping her. But of course I highly doubt you are even willing to acknowledge this fact and instead scream Fake News, just like the whole convert stuff and pretty much any Historical, Political, or Social Fact that casts Islam in a negative light. Let me know when the whole of Islamic Culture outlaws child marriage and raping, then we can begin to go down the Historical Facts and see if they are able to negate Muhammads influence on child marriage and raping...

There isn't another person in this world with the body of work written about him than Mohammad SAW.
Yet anytime a Muslim doesnt like what is brought up in a discussion these bodies of written work are cast aside as being fake, however when they can use to the advantage of Islam all the sudden its legit again. That is always the case whenever the Hadiths are brought into any discussion with any Muslim I have ever discussed it with, it is nothing but a constant moving of the goal post. It is also a wonder to me how so many of the Hadiths can be considered True and Holy basically on par with the Quran, and be known to be written hundreds of years after Muhammad was alive, but then these same Muslims try and cast doubt on the authenticity of the Gospels all of which were written within the lifetimes of the people who knew Christ personally. Seems rather willfully hypocritical to me, but so be it, thus is the way of the Muslim from what I have seen after many a year debating them on these forums. You may not adhere to this aspect, but again as I have said before, to me you are not a Muslim, you created your own Religion and as we have seen even on this board once the Muslims begin to actually read what you are writing, they disacknowledge you as a Muslim, because well your not really a Muslim... Yet I do agree quite alot was written of Muhammad, too bad we dont know what is true or not, even according to Muslims...

btw, you people have a complete obsession with islam.
Do you believe others are obsessed with Christianity? Do you accuse them as such? Do you admonish them publicly like you are of Rain? Of course you dont, its a wonder why...

The extent you'll go to to attack my religion proves it is the true religion.
Ha the Hypocrisy there is amazing lol

the biggest evidence however is that Allah/God granted muslims control of the temple mount for the longest period.
Are you kidding me? LOL this is the crown jewel in your evidence of proof that Islam is correct? And you feint to know Christianity?

You know full well that God never allowed wicked people to have the land for very long.
You mean like from the creation of the world until approximately 1400 BC? Or like Samaria and the Northern Tribes from 722 BC until the present? Or are you just talking about Jerusalem? Which land do you want to actually talk about, be specific, because YHWH declared all of Israel not just the tiny portion of Judah to be His Holy Land in the Word of God.

He always punished the jews when they had it and sinned....so why the hell would he let the wrong religion take it for over 1200 years? Why would he in addition to this watch on as christians (the right religion in your view) go to war in the city but in the end....lose it?
So first lets take a look at what Jesus Himself says, then lets look at whom it is that God says will control these lands when the Diaspora comes. Jesus tells you why the Jews are still not in possession of the full Land ( btw I dont believe the people calling themselves Jews are the rightful heirs to the Land, and again its more than JUST Jerusalem, its the WHOLE of what God ordained in the Old Testament).

Matt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

So Jesus in this chapter details how the Pharisees are going to see destruction, and then states that the house will be left desolate unto them. Then comes the clause that tells us exactly how long it will be that the house will remain desolate unto them, until they say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. There isnt a time frame on that in terms of years, it could have been 1 year it could be 1 million years, but they will not see their house restored until they call Jesus Christ the blessed one who came in the name of the Lord. In other words until they accept Jesus as the Messiah, which wont happen except for a tiny remnant before He comes back, then they will remain kicked out. Its actually pretty simple, they wont be there until Jesus sets up the Promised Israel Himself, period...

Also interesting to note that Jesus proclaims Himself God here, many dont seem to recognize it but He does, who was it that wanted to gather up Jersualem? According to the Old Testament it was YHWH, and here Jesus is proclaiming it was Him who was wanting to gather them up, aka Jesus is YHWH...

Now you say something about why would the "wrong religion" rule over the area, well lets see what the Word of God says about whom it is that rules over this area during their Exiles and Diasporas:

Deut 28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
47 Because thou servedst not the Lord thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

Theres much more written in the Old Testament way more than I could possible quote here, but every time God speaks of why they were taken away its because they rejected Him and every time they suffer the curses its from the ENEMIES OF GOD AND ISRAEL. So who is it that sits upon the land that was given to the children of Abraham Isaac and Jacob after they were driven out because of disobedience and finally rejecting Christ? Oh thats right, the ENEMIES OF GOD. Essentially the crow jewel in your belief system that shows Islam is correct Religion, is according to the Word of God, is proclaiming that Islam or Muslims are literally the ENEMIES OF GOD. As for that here is what the Word of God says about the ENEMIES who control Israel once God reestablishes it in His name aka when Jesus comes back:

Deut 30:2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

7 And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.


Yeah buddy, its gonna be a bad day for Islam when Jesus comes back to reestablish Israel for the remnant that turn their hearts back to Him and call Him Blessed coming in the name of the Lord. All the persecution the people of God have suffered at the hands of their enemies, inclusive of Rome, and all the Islamic Countries, will be given unto them 10 fold. What you call a blessing for Islam is actually a curse according to the Word of God.

It also answers why Christianity never has nor never will control the area, because its reserved to be set up ONLY when Jesus comes back, all other peoples and Religions that try and control it are impostors and will suffer the Wrath of God. By the way dont confuse Catholicism with Christianity, you are think of the Roman Empire not Biblical Christianity when you speak about why didnt Christianity aka Catholicism aka the Roman Empire not control Jerusalem and lost it to Muslims.

Christians dont want Jerusalem, our kingdom is not of this world or else we would fight but since its not we war in Spirit until Christ comes back and destroys Islam, and Catholicism, and this False Satanic Religion called Modern Judaism, and He Himself establishes the REAL Israel not this False State ran by Luciferians using the name of Israel to foment their Satanic Plans. Regardless all Scripture always points to the heathens and those that are the enemies of God and those that worship false gods taking control of Israel once God smites them, enjoy that as your crown jewel I suppose...
 





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#52
This is how Evangelical Christians operate people of VC. They can't come up with proper rebuttals to their contradicting NT verses and then put the blame on the OP. Unless you guys are redefining what the words "ransom" and "begotten" mean you guys are stuck in a pretty sticky situation and making sense of it you'll have to jump from hula hoop to hula hoop. Good luck with your mental and verbal word redefining gymnastics lol.

I dare one of you intellectually inept Evangelical Christians to bring forth a logical reasoning to the verse in the op. Please enlighten me.
 





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#53
This is how Evangelical Christians operate people of VC. They can't come up with proper rebuttals to their contradicting NT verses and then put the blame on the OP. Unless you guys are redefining what the words "ransom" and "begotten" mean you guys are stuck in a pretty sticky situation and making sense of it you'll have to jump from hula hoop to hula hoop. Good luck with your mental and verbal word redefining gymnastics lol.

I dare one of you intellectually inept Evangelical Christians to bring forth a logical reasoning to the verse in the op. Please enlighten me.

What is the problem with John 3:16 ?

God who formed the first man from the earth and breathed life into him would have a problem causing Mary to supernaturally conceive ?
 





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#54
What is the problem with John 3:16 ?

God who formed the first man from the earth and breathed life into him would have a problem causing Mary to supernaturally conceive ?
Agreed.

Nothing is wrong with it, except that the word "begotten" is simply (and quite obviously) the wrong word that got used (due to misinterpretation).

The correct word is "incarnated" and once this fact is understood and the translation is corrected, then there is no issue whatsoever and the problem is solved. Does not the Koran itself confirm that Mary did in fact give birth to Jesus whilst still a Virgin?

John
3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only incarnated Son, that whosoever believeth him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
 





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#55
"God tells us and it is written in both the New Covenant and in the Holy Koran that the Virgin Mary was from both the line of David and also from the Levitical line of Aaron, being cousin of Elizabeth (a Levite) and the daughter of Ann, who was from both the British royal family - the line of David and also from the line of Aaron (Moses' brother, who was the first High-priest of Israel). We are also told by God (not Mohammed) in the Holy Koran that Mary did, in fact, give birth to Jesus whilst still a virgin and that she travelled from her home in the West (England) to the East (Israel) to give birth to the miracle-son." :- [Let the Inhabitants of The Rock sing The 'New Song'. The Song of Moses and The Lamb.]

Holy Koran,
Sura
19:16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family (in Britain) to a place in the East (Israel).
19:17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
19:18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ("I AM") Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear "I AM"."
19:19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a Holy son.
19:20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
19:21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed (in Prophecy)."
19:22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. [KOFK]
 





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#56
Agreed.

Nothing is wrong with it, except that the word "begotten" is simply (and quite obviously) the wrong word that got used (due to misinterpretation).
How do you misinterpret the word "unique/special" for "begotten"?

Does not the Koran itself confirm that Mary did in fact give birth to Jesus whilst still a Virgin?
Yes, but Muslims don't go around saying that my beloved Jesus was the begotten Son of God (meaning literal son of God) but rather that he was the son of Mary(pbuh).
 





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#57
This is how Evangelical Christians operate people of VC. They can't come up with proper rebuttals to their contradicting NT verses and then put the blame on the OP. Unless you guys are redefining what the words "ransom" and "begotten" mean you guys are stuck in a pretty sticky situation and making sense of it you'll have to jump from hula hoop to hula hoop. Good luck with your mental and verbal word redefining gymnastics lol.

I dare one of you intellectually inept Evangelical Christians to bring forth a logical reasoning to the verse in the op. Please enlighten me.
There goes Polly the dementia struck Parrot again, you are the most intellectually dishonest person I have ever seen on this site, besides your Captain Scimitar. How about addressing the rebuttals to your argument instead of acting incompetent? Be intellectually honest for once in your life. Why is Issac called the only begotten son of Abraham if it means the only procreated son of Abraham?

Are you seriously so obtuse not to understand that there is Greek and Hebrew that underlies the English, and THAT is what needs to be address vs the English word? Or are you going to act like a mentally challenged Parrot and keep sticking to the same argument no matter how often it is addressed? You speak of your amazing logical prowess but if you look up the word Anti-Logic in the dictionary it calls you the Father of it...

So plenty of people including myself have made logical and consistent rebuttals to your OP, try to actually address them Polly...
 





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#58
How do you misinterpret the word "unique/special" for "begotten"?
How? Does it really matter? (Failure in human understanding? Could that be it? This is not something that is very uncommon on planet Earth.)
The point is it just needs to be corrected now that it is known and understood to have been a misinterpretation.
"unique/special" may be better than "begotten" but it is still not as correct or descriptive as "incarnated".
Yes, but Muslims don't go around saying that my beloved Jesus was the begotten Son of God (meaning literal son of God) but rather that he was the son of Mary(pbuh).
Christians therefore need to be shown this, in a loving way, so that hopefully, they will then be able to come to see it and accept this needed correction.
 





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#59
There goes Polly the dementia struck Parrot again, you are the most intellectually dishonest person I have ever seen on this site, besides your Captain Scimitar. How about addressing the rebuttals to your argument instead of acting incompetent? Be intellectually honest for once in your life. Why is Issac called the only begotten son of Abraham if it means the only procreated son of Abraham?
You should blame the writers of your book for making it full of interpolations and mistakes. Scimitar, hasn't been on the forums here since he was banned so I have no clue what you're talking about.

I'll start addressing you're rebuttal as soon as you bring one to the table so far I've seen nothing but insults thrown my way. Because Issac is the actual literal son of two human parents and therefore using the word "begotten" actually makes sense (you making that statement shows that you have no idea how the natural world actually works).

Are you seriously so obtuse not to understand that there is Greek and Hebrew that underlies the English, and THAT is what needs to be address vs the English word? Or are you going to act like a mentally challenged Parrot and keep sticking to the same argument no matter how often it is addressed? You speak of your amazing logical prowess but if you look up the word Anti-Logic in the dictionary it calls you the Father of it...
The word in Koine Greek used is translated into "unique or special" and not "begotten". Begotten is an interpolation. And if you believe it's not show me from your oldest Bibles where the word "begotten" (which is a word used for HUMAN reproduction) is?

So plenty of people including myself have made logical and consistent rebuttals to your OP, try to actually address them Polly...
You using the word "logical" is quite laughable. Please don't ever use that word in my presence you intellectually inept polytheist.
 





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#60
How? Does it really matter? (Failure in human understanding? Could that be it? This is not something that is very uncommon on planet Earth.)
The point is it just needs to be corrected now that it is known and understood to have been a misinterpretation.
"unique/special" may be better than "begotten" but it is still not as correct or descriptive as "incarnated".

Christians therefore need to be shown this, in a loving way, so that hopefully, they will then be able to come to see it and accept this needed correction.
I actually agree with you. However, the Christians on here are so idiotic that they will fight you tooth and nail that the word "begotten" is the correct word. If the word begotten is used it implies that God literally had sex with Mary, which is absolutely ridiculous and stupid but I expect that from the Christians on here lol.