@Todd
For the Christians on this forum I offer the following for contemplation. Israel, the land, is very special and important to God. The Bible clearly states the land is important to him and that Jersualem would always be the place he chooses to reveal his glory. Israel, the people, also are special to God, but it's difficult to know who is really Israel in the eyes of God.
When God delivered Israel from slavery in Egypt, His purpose was to bring Israel to the land of Canaan, where they would be able to serve and obey Him freely. Canaan was the inheritance that God promised Abraham because he had obeyed God’s voice and left his country to go to the Promised Land.
The reason God gave the promised land to Israel was not simply for them to possess it. God was bringing them to Himself,
"You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself" (
Exodus 19:4). God wanted them to live in a land where they would be able to enjoy an intimate relationship with Him, without any hindrance, and would also be a witness to the world of who the true God was and what He offered His people.
The promised land was given to Jews on condition of obedience. As you know Israel had an up and down relationship with God and sometimes God punished them by allowing them to be taken captive because of their disobedience.
The land was only important when the Jews obeyed God and when they didn't, they scattered around the world. It was not about the land, it was always about the people. When they rejected Christ as Messiah one last time and stopped being chosen people, Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. This happened in AD 70 and until 1948, the Jews had no home. However they still reject Christ as Messiah and that land is occupied with Gentiles too and on Temple mount there is a mosque. There has never been peace on that land to this day. And that is not what God envisioned when He gave it to Israel as a chosen nation. Israel is still not what is should be and never will be after their rejection of Christ.
There have been many theologies/doctines/theories about this, including replacement theology (that Christians are now Spiritual Israel), the lost 10 tribes becoming the Caucasian race (hence the somewhat logical extraplation why the Caucasion race accepted the gospel and the largest influce in spreading the gospel across the globe), and of course the theory that the those who call themselves Jews today are not really Jews but the coverted Khazarian race.
Christians are spiritual Israel. That is not made up, its biblical. All those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour are chosen and part of Israel regardless of what race or nation they come from. Paul wrote,
“Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, ... For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Therefore, if an uncircumcised man (Gentiles) keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? ... For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” (
Romans 2:17, 25, 26, 28, 29).
So someone who is
“called a Jew” because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker,
“is not a Jew”—at least, not in God’s eyes. His
“circumcision is made uncircumcision.” It is revoked. Thus to God, he is a Gentile. And a believing Gentile, who through faith keeps
“the righteousness of the law,” his uncircumcision is counted for circumcision. Thus to God, he is a Jew.
Paul also wrote,
“Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham” (
Galatians 3:7).
“For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh” (
Philippians 3:3). According to Paul, a real Jew in the sight of God is anybody—Jew or Gentile—who has personal faith in Jesus Christ!
If you disagree with this, you disagree with the Word of God which makes it clear all those who accept Christ and submit to him are Jews whether they are Jews or Gentiles. This is the simple truth of God.
I've studied all these theories and there is compelling evidence for all of them. But ultimately it's not really even relevant. The whole point of the message of the Bible is that God has given man 6000 years to do it his way and according to the Bible it's clear man will mess it up badly.
Anything that is in the Bible is relevant and there is only one truth to this subject in the Bible. Originally the Jews were God's chosen people, but they rejected Christ as the Messiah and they stopped being a chosen nation. Before they stoned the deacon Stephen, he told them the truth of their state and they got angry and stoned Him. Stephen told the Jews,
“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it” (
Acts 7:51-53). He told them they were responsible for Jesus's death.
Yes we always mess up and do the opposite of what God has asked of us as human beings and that includes the Jews. They rejected God on and off for thousands of years but that was not going to continue forever. Eventually they would stop being a chosen nation. They have to come to Christ individually like we all have to do.
What happened to the Jews on a small scale though is going to world on large scale. The world mostly rejects God too but like the Jews, this is not going to go on forever. At the end of the world, Jesus will return for His people and those that rejected Him will be destroyed forever. And sin will come to an end.
Until Jesus returns and sets up the millenial reign, there will never be peace and no government will be "righteous" in the eyes of God. Every government, including the USA and Israel is corrupt. I believe God blesses nations to some degree based on how the people (not the government) seek and worship God.
Agree.
The reason the United States was blessed for almost 200 years is because the Christian people sought after God and the government to some degree reflected this. However in the last 75 years we have slowly regressed and hence our Government has become more and more corrupt.
True and this is prophesied in the Bible. The US is the second beast of Revelation 13.
“I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon” (
Revelation 13:11). In biblical symbolic language, a nation that arises
"out of the earth" instead of out of the water as the first beast does (water means populated area,
"The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" Revelation 17:15) means it arises in a sparsely populated area. It means that this new nation would arise in an area of the world that had been very under populated before the 16th century. It could not arise among the crowded and struggling nations of the Old World in Europe.
The lamb like horns represent an innocent, young, non-oppressive, peace-loving, and spiritual nation (Jesus is referred to as a lamb in the bible including in Revelation). However this lamb like beast is going to change and speak as a dragon and will become a persecuting power that will force people to go against their conscience, as did the first beast of Revelation 13 which symbolises papal Rome.
We are yet to see the full scale of the US speaking as a dragon. There are hints here and there but the worst is yet to come.
Whether the Jewish people today or really true descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, or they are a converted race that observes the Toah is irrelevant.
You're right its irrelevant whether they are real Jews or not. What matters according to the Bible is that they accept Christ as their Saviour and have faith in Him.
The bible prophesied that Israel would be a nation again and that miraclously occured in 1948.
The Bible never prophesied about literal Israel being a nation again. Not in the New Covenant. In the Old Covenant there are promises of Israel becoming a nation again after the Babylonian captivity. Many (not all), returned home after they were let free by the Medo-Persians. At that time, Judah was still their home. To cut the long story short, they rejected Christ and after that, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple 40 years after Jesus' death. Why? Because the land was no longer blessed and since then there has never been peace in that land. Also Jesus is in the heavenly temple as our High Priest. There is no longer a need for an earthly temple because all the ceremonial laws pointed to Christ's life, ministry and death. Christ fulfilled them and now advocates in the heavenly temple/sanctuary for us. So the Bible says, and I have a thread on the
heavenly temple/sanctuary explaining this in more detail.
In the New Covenant where Christians are the Jews regardless of race and nation, the New Jerusalem is in heaven and will be occupied by the righteous after Jesus comes back for them the second time. In the New Covenant the new home for all the Jews is not of this world. Its in the Kingdom to come. This world is not our home as the song says.
And now a group of people who observe the Hebrew religious tradition and the Torah occupy the promised land.
It doesn't count since they reject Christ as Messiah and His sacrifice for us. The Old Covenant is null and void and doesn't count.
To say the Nation State of Israel is a hebrew Torah following chosen people of God is no different than trying to say the United States Government is Christian nation....It's not.
Agree
I personally support the Jewish people as a people who are seeking the same God the Bible that I am seeking.
Actually they are not seeking the same God since most of them reject Christ as Messiah don't they? The Bible is clear that there is,
"no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (
Acts 4:12). We can only be saved through Christ and no One else.
I pray they get the revelation that Jesus is the Messiah, but I still have compassion and support them.
I pray this same prayer too and pray the Palestinians find Christ too. I have compassion for the Israelis as I do for the Palestinians too.
I trust and the support the government of Israel as much as I trust and support the government of the United States (i.e. very little).
Me too. The Israeli government has done some horrible things to the Palestinians since the occupation and most of it never gets reported in the media.
But my love for the land and people of Isreal is the same as my love for the land and people of America. Also the Bible clearly states that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those that curse Israel will be cursed. So I bless Israel and pray for the peace of Jerusalem, but it does not mean I agree with the decisions and actions of the government of Israel.
I love all people including the Israelis but Israel in the New Testament is true Christians.
Acts 10:34-35, "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him."
Galatians 3:26-29, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
And yes, it is wrong to curse God's people, nothing good comes out of that.
