Deception in the Church

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#61
@Aiylishia

It brings to mind the time spoken of in Joel 2. I think we are living towards the conclusion of those words. It's not a time to live half-heartedly or squabble and fight with one another. The fields are white for harvest.

"28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
 





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#62
Given that, as I understand from both reading and participating in some of the threads in this sub-forum lately, these above two seem somewhat interrelated, does it boil down to this:

Everlasting does not mean everlasting when the subject is whether or not Christians, once born again, can lose their salvation, but it does mean everlasting when it involves the land God gave to the modern, nation state of Israel, and anybody who says -or claims- otherwise is probably deceived?
For the land, it is an everlasting covenant with God, that hasnt changed, and neither has it changed that the Jews are God’s chosen people, even though they’ve rejected His Son. God brought good out of that and offered up salvation to us Gentiles, but He will be getting back to His people and will deal with their unbelief. Paul tells us also that they didn’t fall, that they were partially hardened.

God has sent His Son so that those who believe on Him will be saved and not perish. That is also true. However, and obviously not everyone agrees with me, but we are told that people can fall away from the faith- stop believing. It is not God who said I’m done with you, it is the Christian in this scenario who moves away from God because of deception. God warns us of this so that we would be alert, but alas, people think once saved, always saved anyway.
 





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#63
it does mean everlasting when it involves the land God gave to the modern, nation state of Israel, and anybody who says -or claims- otherwise is probably deceived?
I will tell you what, I think that many people dont understand what Jesus meant by the Kingdom, I dont even think they understand what Gods purpose for Israel was overall in the Old Testament. I also think they completely ignore this verse an extremely important verse in their Carnal ambition to see a literal restoration of Israel:

Josh 21:43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

All of these things that most Zionist Christians cling to for the Carnal Nation State of Israel has been fulfilled in Joshua. Somehow they all completely ignore this specific verse and let it be what it is, the fulfillment of what God promised Abraham concerning the PHYSICAL aspect of Israel.

I believe that Zionist Christians are identical to the Pharisees (and IMO are completely and totally influenced by them thus this Doctrine concerning Israel being a Nation State again and needing to bless whatever it does ect) in that they are so Carnally focused on a Physical Israel that they are not willing to see the True Intent of Christ and what He has done. I dont believe at this point Jesus needs to be on Earth and sit as a King over a Literal Israel. I believe the Kingdom He ushered in at His Death and Resurrection is the fulfillment of most of these Prophecies Zionist Christians tie to a Physical Israel.

I also think that many of them are not willing to include the New Heaven and the New Earth into their Prophetic understanding, in that, much of the things they wish to contribute to the Reign of Jesus on this Earth is much more clearly understood as perfectly fulfilled in the New Heaven and the New Earth. One quick example is:

Is 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

This is commonly interpreted in this day and age (not so much before Scofield and his bible) by Pre Millennialists as a description of how the Reign of Christ will be, yet I believe it is much more reminiscent of the description Isaiah states IS of the New Heaven and New Earth:

Is 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

So we see that Isaiah specifically tells us concerning the New Heaven and the New Earth, shows us Jerusalem and then describes how Nature and Humanity will interact, and it is the same as Is 11 describes it, literally ending in the same exact wording of they shall not hurt or destroy in my holy mountain. I personally can no longer accept this as a supposed Reign of Christ on this planet as in that ideology death and pain hurt and destruction still exists, I believe this is a picture of perfection 100% perfection.

But that is just an example of how I am beginning to see that so many are misunderstanding the Prophecy in the Bible, looking and desiring to see a literal restoration of the Nation of Israel (mainly because they have been introduced to this ideology via Scofield) in the same manner as the Pharisees and not realizing Jesus has already brought in the Kingdom, we dont need to wait for Him to set up something in Israel. WE are the possessors of the Kingdom NOW!!!

Also concerning the 2nd coming of Christ which is understood as the Day of the Lord, I am wondering why those who hold to Pre Mil, interpret or more like ignore this verse (I honestly couldnt address it properly unless you decide to have Jesus come back I guess 3 different times if you hold to Pre Trib, Pre Mil)

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

According to this Scripture when Jesus comes back aka the Day of the Lord, all the elements are going to burn up and everything will be dissolved. It also says that we are to look for the New Heaven and the New Earth once this happens, not some Earthly Reign, how can you have an Earthly Regin if Jesus literally is causing the heavens to be set on fire and the elements to melt in heat? Doesnt really line up with Pre Mil...

So where is this Day of the Lord? Does Jesus now come back 1 time before the Trib, a 2nd time at the end of the Trib and a 3rd time at the end of His Earthly Reign? Seems like quite a massive stretch to me. If I take this for what it says, Jesus comes back the Earth and the Heavens are destroyed, and the New Heaven and New Earth are brought in...

Anyways I might have to create a Thread to get proper discussion for these things, I would like to truly see how these issues are resolved in Pre Mil ideology (which I kind of ignored myself or now see it as I had massive inconsistencies with these Scriptures)...
 





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#64
Couldn't this be a situation in which a prophecy, though fulfilled once, loops back around, maybe in elliptical rather than circular fashion, and plays itself out again? For instance, I've heard what I think are called "preterists" say that the prophecy of antichrist was fulfilled in Nero (or some other historical character), yet that doesn't seem to preclude the possibility of the prophecy being repeated, on a much grander scale, globally rather than locally, 2,000 years later.
I believe in Cyclical Prophecies, I agree with the understanding of the Antichrist and fulfillment at the time of Daniel in Antiochus IV Epiphanes, again in the destruction of the Temple/Nero, and I believe in an ultimate fulfillment before Christ comes back. However one doesnt need to accept Pre Mil to believe in an AntiChrist if that is what youre suggesting. However you just may be using it as an example.

Like I said I am having a hard time accepting that Scripture is showing Christ as literally ruling in Jerusalem on this Earth, and that what Christ came to do was install or usher in the True Kingdom which is Spiritual. And with the Scripture I showed I dont know how we can accept some 1000 yr reign of Christ on Earth if He is going to burn everything up at His coming, which is exactly what the Scripture says...

indications in the "the Law and the Prophets" that Israel (not to be confused exclusively with Jews, though many people seemingly like it to be) would go into dispersion, or diaspora, and be returned at the end of the age.
Would you like to expand on these Scriptures to see if they can be understood differently than a Literal Earthly fulfillment?

but neither do I think that the Biblical authors, especially St. Paul in this case, made the relation between those two invariably clear: hence why "Replacement Theology" is included on @Lisa's list of deceptions.
I think that it is much clearer that one chooses to see, mainly as I said because they have been brought up or essentially brainwashed via their Bibles Commentaries that tell them to discern these Scriptures a very specific way. I dont believe many have truly taken the time to study different Eschatologies, nor to study the problems found in their current understanding. Pre Mill is the most dominate Eschatology in the Modern Church. It took me coming to this site before I started truly looking into its claims and after coming here I eventually came to reject Pre Trib Pre Mil.

Then the Lord lead me to a Church in Divine Fashion that teaches Amil, and I definitely have resisted accepting it, going on 2 years there and I am just now truly begining to look into its claims with an open mind and heart. After doing so I can see much more Truth to its ideology and much more problems with Pre Mil. I just seriously dont believe anyone who is hard core Pre Trib/Pre Mil has taken time to study the problems with it, or has really given study to the other Eschatologies.

As for Replacement Theology, I would be more likely to accept that over this Carnal ideology of the Jews get Israel and thus a different method of Salvation that is taught under Dispensationalism. Again I wonder how many on here have truly studied other methods of understanding or studied the problems with Dispensationalism.

With the view of Amil comes a wholly different understanding apart from Replacement Theology or Dispensationalism, its called Covenant Theology and studying it some it seems to put things much more clearly. God deals with Humanity in 2 methods verse like idk I think 7/8 in Dispensationalism, which is via the Old and the New Covenant. Kind of like the Bible says specifically, the Old and the New, and essentially the New is just an extension of the Old but now offered to all Nations instead of just the Nation of Israel. It contends that the believers in Israel were the Covenant Peoples, not just the Ethnic Peoples, and that they are the ones in which all the Promises were given to ect. And now the fulfillment of all of these things are found in the New Covenant with ALL Nations/Peoples found in Christ which is what the Old Testament Prophesied about concerning everything.

Israel is simply extended, nothing Replaced, instead the "Church" is grafted into Spiritual Israel which is literally what the Word of God states. I can go into this more and would love to discuss these things more deeply find out the pros and cons, but IDK if the Forum wants to engage in these types of conversations. Seems unless its denying Christ or the Trinity or things such as that which has been discussed to death here and cause division people arent too into speaking about it...
 





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#65
As for Replacement Theology, I would be more likely to accept that over this Carnal ideology of the Jews get Israel and thus a different method of Salvation that is taught under Dispensationalism. Again I wonder how many on here have truly studied other methods of understanding or studied the problems with Dispensationalism.

Israel is simply extended, nothing Replaced, instead the "Church" is grafted into Spiritual Israel which is literally what the Word of God states. I can go into this more and would love to discuss these things more deeply find out the pros and cons, but IDK if the Forum wants to engage in these types of conversations.
Well said, I agree...
 





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#66
Pattern, Not Just Prediction

"The western mind views prophecy merely as prediction and fulfillment. The Jewish mind saw prophecy as a pattern being recapitulated, where a pattern of events illuminates a thematic replay in the future. The "western" (Gentile) misunderstandings are crucial in understanding the errors of dominionism, restorationism, and preterism, which continue to confuse current eschatology (the study of "last things").

Among the illuminating warnings are the attribution by Matthew of the return of Joseph, Mary and the infant Jesus from Egypt to the quote from Hosea. There is no rational way to view the Hosea passage as Messianic in the traditional sense. The academic overemphasis on context seems to break down when viewed too narrowly. The answer is pattern, not just prediction."

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2001/341/

And

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2013/1107/
 





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#67
"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."
(Zecharia 14:16)
How readest thou this :cool:? Can it be understood as other than literal and Earthly? To keep things manageably brief, let's collectively run with this and leave some of the other issues in abeyance for now.
I definitely believe it can be viewed and understood as something other than literal and this Earthly. I will say this my friend that you chose quite a deep prophecy to begin our journey, Zechariah is extremely complex and to truly understand this verse one would have to address many other verses prior. However at this time I am not going to dig and unpack all of it, as we would have to start in Chapter 12 probably to lay the foundation of explanation for the following chapters.

With that said, before I go into detail concerning the other perspective of this Prophecy I believe it is wise to address the problems with Pre Mil ( You said you are not familiar with the terms, so Pre Mil, is Pre Millennialism the ideology that asserts that we are in a state of time that proceeds a Literal Reign of Christ on the Earth for 1000 yrs, Amil, is Amillennialism or the ideology that there is no Literal Reign of Christ on the Earth, instead the "Millennial" Reign is considered the Reign of Christ from His Ascension until His Return. The 1000 yrs which is taken from Rev 20:4 is considered Symbolic in the same understanding of Time asserted in 2 Peter 3:8 which says a Day is as a Thousand year and a Thousand years as a Day.)

So the first and very major problem with Pre Mil understanding of using these verses for a Literal Reign of Christ is that it says " to keep the feast of tabernacles." One of the biggest problems with Pre Mil is how they assert that the Old Testament Laws and Holy Days will be re-instituted, when at the same time it is constantly argued that Jesus did away with them on the Cross.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

I could quote dozen more and I am sure that you have watched as Christians have made it a point to show that the Old Covenant and its Laws and Feasts (which the Feasts are actually under the Law of Moses) have all been done away with in Christ. He fulfilled them and annulled them by His Coming, however once it comes to this, they do a 180 and say God is going to renege on what was done in Christ and restart all these Old Covenant things. This really makes no sense, did Jesus do away with it and establish the New Covenant or not?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In Context of that chapter we know Paul is saying without a doubt that the Old Covenant is gone, there is ONLY the New Covenant and it is ONLY by way of the New Covenant that one can gain entrance into the Kingdom of God. The Pre Mil accepts this other ideology called Dispensationalism where they believe that God didnt actually do away with the Old Covenant, that Jesus really didnt nail it all to the Cross, and because they HAVE to, they say well Israel will once again be under the Old Covenant when Jesus comes back.

To me that is just nonsense and literally means that they are endorsing 2 different methods of Salvation, one for Non Ethnic Jews and one for Ethnic Jews, however the Bible itself is extremely clear on these points. 1) No one gets to the Heaven unless the believe on Christ. 2) All Israel isnt Israel (Rom 9:6) which means just because someone was Ethnically part of Israel were they actually part of Spiritual Israel. 3) That there is absolutely no difference between Jew and Gentile ( Gal 3:28). This means this idea that God is going to create an Ethnic Israel and deal with them differently is wholly against New Testament Scripture. This idea for dealing with the Jews in a Millennial Time with Jesus and they have the Old Covenant brought back, is NOT in any way taught in the New Testament. In fact it is specifically taught against. But like I said they make up things not in the New Testament to cram a Physical Israel back into the World...

The New Testament teaches that the Old Covenant was done away with in Christ and that Christ established the New Covenant and that FOREVER MORE all people Jew and Gentile are all within Christ. There is never a separation or a different manner of Salvation, in fact if one understands the OT the only method of Salvation was thru Faith in the Messiah to come. Those who believed were part of Spiritual Israel, Ethnic Israel was simply the ones that were given the opportunity to accept the coming Messiah and now that Jesus has come EVERYONE is in the exact same position as Ethnic Israel was in, they are all given the opportunity and understanding of how to receive Salvation.

Anyways thats a whole other Topic I suppose, so the other problem with this is if we are to address these as Literal then are we to believe that literally the nations of the earth will come up against ethnic Israel riding horses, camels, and donkeys; or that they will bring cattle with them to serve as food (12:4, 14:15)? There comes a real problem if we start going back and literally interpreting everything said in these Prophecies. I could devel further but I think you get the point, which is if we decide one part is to be Literally Fulfilled then so to must we begin to say all the other verses need to maintain being fulfilled Literally.

Lastly just with the article you have given us, I suppose they are saying that this IS being fulfilled right now? How can that be so? Jesus is NOT on the Throne in Earthly Jerusalem is He? Absolutely nothing concerning these Prophecies has Literally come to pass, in the previous verses for instance you have:

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

That definitely hasnt happened in a Literal Sense has it? Of course not, so these people are just Cherry Picking Scripture to push an agenda plain and simple.

So lets move on to a different perspective of all of this. Now I believe that this Chapter is dealing with the "Last Battle" between Christ and the Church and Satan and the World. In the Amil view, Christ has already ushered in the Kingdom of God, He IS Reigning now and the Church is in the Tribulation against Satan and the World. It should be explained in much more detail with Biblical References but in sake of some brevity I am going to leave it at that. The fashion in which this Chapter OUGHT to understood is specified in the very first verse:

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

This ought to understood in light of the Day of the Lord, which of course is the 2nd Coming of Christ. Now the Pre Mil mind is rather scattered as to what this future Day of the Lord is, one second it encompasses an invisible Return of Christ where the Church is taken away, then its the Literal Return of Christ, then it is the End of the 1000 yr Reign. In order to have Jesus fulfill all of the Scriptures spoken of concerning the future Day of the Lord they mandate like 3-4 events, instead of ONE as Scripture teaches.

This Chapter deals with Christs Return then the Final State of Humanity because that is what Scripture actually teaches, Christ Return then the New Heaven and New Earth.

I want to parallel these Old Testament Scriptures with New Testament Scriptures to show how this Chapter is actually to be understood and also how a Literal Interpretation is rather hard to accept.

Verse 1-2 is rather clear, at some point right before Jesus coming the whole world will turn against the Church/Israel (Please keep in mind that when I refer to Israel from now on it is Spiritual Israel the only Israel God has ever cared about or made any Covenants with) and during this time is when Jesus Himself will come back and go to War for the Church/Israel...

Verses 3-5 are a Symbolic Picture of Jesus Return and what is going to happen. Verse 4 pictures Jesus creating an unexpected way of escape for his people; verse 5 pictures them using it. It is not speaking of Jesus literally standing on Mt Olive nor literally breaking a valley, just as it is not speaking of Ethnic Jews fleeing to some tiny village. The intent here is parallel to other imagery in the Old Testament of God coming to deliver His people such as:

Ps 97:5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Is 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

Micah 1:3 For, behold, the Lord cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

Nahum 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.


And God in the Old Testament would give His Children a place to flee when either the Enemy would come upon them and He was delivering them or He was bringing His Judgement:

Gen 19:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

With this in mind we can see that in the Day of the Lord when the Earth is about to undergo its final destruction, the Lord will open a way Supernaturally for His Children to flee towards Him and once they are all secure then He will come and bring Judgement upon all their enemies. Further more THIS is what is actually spoken about in the New Testament, direct verses that show THIS happening and not some random 1000 yr gap and Jesus on Earth as seen here:

Jesus comes back for all too see:

Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

As everyone sees Him what else is happening at His Coming?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Then Jesus provides away for those to escape Supernaturally to Him:

1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And finally He defeats our enemies once and for all:

Matt 13;42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


So we can see how the OT picture is truly fulfilled in the New Testament, what comes next are pictures of the World to come, the Judgement to come and the Worship to come. Verses 6-8 snapshot the New Heavens and the New Earth, verses 9-11 uses OT imagery to snapshot life in the New Jerusalem.

Verse 6-8 say:
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Essentially what this is declaring is that there will be a Radical Transformation in how all of Creation works which is exactly what the NT says will happen at Christs Return as He Restores all things. (Mt. 19:28, Acts 3:21, Rom. 8:21, Phil. 3:21) What these verse basically say in paraphrase is in the world to come there will be no more natural light because the sun moon and stars have been done away with and as a result there will be something wholly and totally different and new, a "Day" in which there is no day or night as we know it now. That there will be an Eternal Day that only the Lord knows fully.

Again the NT tells us exactly what is meant by these things and how we can understand it. When Jesus comes back He Himself will diminish aka destroy the Sun and Moon and Stars:

Matt 24;29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


It also shows us what to make of this New Day spoken about:

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Verse 8 speaks of the Living Waters, how is that to be understood? Is it something to do with Literal Water on Literal Earth during Jesus Literal Reign here? Or does the NT tells us exact when and what this is foreshadowing?

Rev 22:And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The living waters proceed from New Jerusalem, not Earthly Jerusalem as the NT makes plain for all of us to know!!!!

Verse 9-11 read:

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


This again is speaking of ETERNAL Security, as it say there shall be NO MORE utter destruction, however in the Pre Mil interpretation this can not possibly be for 2 reasons. First according to that ideology Satan is literally going to mount up a massive army to attack Jerusalem yet again and 2nd eventually Jesus is going to have to destroy Earth itself which in my book amounts to utter destruction.

A more reasonable understanding would be that this is speaking of the New Heaven and the New Earth with New Jerusalem of which the NT says:

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

According to Scripture it is in the NH and NE within NJ that we shall inhabit safely and there will NEVER be destruction ever seen or heard of again. I could get much deeper into each verse and its relation to the NT but I think you get the point and this is already a massive post so..

Verse 12-15 read:

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

For brevity sake I am going to point out that this is all a description of the Final Judgement and the Destruction of the Wicked in the Lake of Fire. Verse 12 is a portrait of the fate suffered in the Lake of Fire in associating with the plagues that befell the Enemies of Israel in the OT, such as Egypt or the Assyrian Army. Verse 13 shows that at the Last Battle God will cause confusion among the enemy which again is a continuous Theme in the Bible. It could also be said of how this also is foreshadowing the hate of one another in the Lake of Fire.

Verse 14 speaks to the plunder to be had at the fulfillment of the Last Battle, where the Church inherits all things and thus the meek shall inherit the Earth. Verse 15 says the plague will even reach to the animals that were used to bring the enemies into Battle recalling the OT events of when Joshua went into battle against the Amorities when they had reached their fullness of sin and even the animals were destroyed. Again what this is all pointing to is the when the World reaches its fullness of Sin, Jesus will come back and destroy it all, and then make all things New and give it all to His beloved Sons and Daughters.

Finally we come to the last part of the Text and specifically the Text you asked me if there is a different interpretation able to be seen. So verses 16-21 deal with the Worship to Come in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Indeed I believe there is and in my view it is much deeper and more rich than to understand it from an Earthly Literal perspective. So what does this all mean?

An overview of what is seen here is, that you have 2 different kinds of nations or families, both of whom at one point in time before the Judgement came against Jerusalem with hostile intent. However now we see that one group goes up continually and Eternally before the Lord to worship Him as King and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles while the other group represented by Egypt refuses to go and are hence the Lord punishes with drought.

So how can we understand this in a different light than Pre Mil would push upon us? First we must ponder and understand why it is the Feast of Tabernacles spoken of here, keep in mind that the Feast were FORESHADOWINGS of what is to come:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So what was the Feast of Tabernacles? It was an especially joyous Feast celebrated at the Harvest time, where Israel was to celebrate not only their deliverance from Egypt but also for Gods faithfulness in leading them through the Wilderness and into the Promise Land!!! While they were in the Wilderness they camped in Tabernacles and that is why the Feast is called the Feast of Tabernacles. This is a Prophecy designed to comfort the Saints with a picture of Eternal Worship of the Glorified Church in Old Testament Imagery of the Israels most joyful Feasts!!!

Above in the summary of these verses I said these families were all at one time hostile to Jerusalem. We can see that at one point everyone was at enmity with God but due to Christ he has taken some from the position of hostile and enemy to friendly. Just as the Feast of Tabernacles is done in Harvest so to did Jesus Harvest those from the World who believed in Him.

Matt 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


These Saints will go up forever to Worship God the King, in His City the New Jerusalem, and celebrate not only their Personal Salvation but also to celebrate the faithfulness of God thru Christ who has lead them safely out of the wilderness of this Sinful World and into that Hope and Glorious Promise Land of the NH and NE!!!

The men of Egypt represent those who rejected going through this eschatological exodus who refused to be rescued, who refused to be apart of the Kingdom of God, and who refused to walk with Christ thru the Wilderness and into the Promise Land. In other prophecies we can see Nation of the Earth but they are not near Jerusalem which seems puzzling perhaps but when we incorporate the NT we can fully understand the imagery they represent and why they are far off.

Is 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

These Nations that dont come up they are cast away from the New Jerusalem into Outer Darkness and into the Lake of Fire. They will experience the complete and total drought of the Spirit of God for choosing to reject drinking from the Rock of Christ for Salvation...

The final 2 verses show that all things in the NH and NE are perfectly Holy, and that no unholy or unrighteous man (represented by the Canaanite) will be present. Everything will be fully and 100% perfect before the Lord...

So IDK about you but this is a much deeper and much more insightful and much more realized understanding of these Text than to try and cram them into some made up Earthly Reign of Jesus in Jerusalem. This interpretation give me hope gives me understanding, I can see how all of these things in the OT are Symbolic of the wonderful reality that awaits us as described in the NT and then it makes the NT so much richer and deeper and greater!!!

So while you basically picked one of the hardest Scriptures to dive into, I am glad you did because now I see it in a much deeper and richer understanding, and I hope I have conveyed to you that yes indeed there is another way to interpret these Prophecies besides the typical Pre Mil understanding.

If there are other Prophecies you would like to discuss please bring them up, I truly enjoyed learn and writing this post, I hope you can take something of value from it my friend!!!
 





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#68
"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."
(Zecharia 14:16)

How readest thou this :cool:? Can it be understood as other than literal and Earthly? To keep things manageably brief, let's collectively run with this and leave some of the other issues in abeyance for now.

Despite the destruction in the last days there will be survivors on earth and let's not forget that these are God's feasts.

Leviticus 23 4"These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them."

Besides the Feast of Tabernacles is Jesus birthday.
 





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#69
If there are other Prophecies you would like to discuss please bring them up, I truly enjoyed learn and writing this post, I hope you can take something of value from it my friend!!!
Jesus Christ can you type less and do more ?

Are there perhaps not some homeless people to feed in your town ?
 





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#71
... can you [Daciple] type less and do more ?
I did not realize, when I quoted something, a report of an event from a Christian news source, that I had chosen such a complicated Biblical verse, and a large part of @Daciple's above post is spent helping me (and others, like me, who might not know) understand how the difference between the theological concepts, "premil" and "amil," can ultimately affect one's understanding -and interpretation- of prophecies. I have neither had a chance to read and absorb it all, nor yet respond, but I nevertheless appreciate his effort! It's interesting.
 





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#72
Jesus Christ can you type less and do more ?

Are there perhaps not some homeless people to feed in your town ?
Really? You are going to use the Lords Name in Vain and then try and speak to me about what I should or shouldnt be doing?

If you dont want to read what I wrote then by all means dont, but to get upset because I wrote out a detailed post explaining my position is absurd. More of the "man if its over 140 Characters I cant read it" crowd. Dont buy a book or visit any websites with articles on it, Lord knows those people are just wastes of space that could be out feeding the homeless! I bet you show up to Book signings and harass people because they created a work over 1 paragraph.

Regardless, I hope maybe you take some time and read what I wrote, you just might learn something there brother, or not, IDC, God bless you either way!!!
 





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#73
Despite the destruction in the last days there will be survivors on earth and let's not forget that these are God's feasts.

Leviticus 23 4"These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them."

Besides the Feast of Tabernacles is Jesus birthday.
Actually there wont be any survivors on the Earth if you believe what the Bible truly says concerning the Day of the Lord, if you take 5 min of your busy life and read what I wrote I explain that fully, or dont and remain ignorant on a different perspective backed up by what the Word of God actually says ...
 





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#74
Jesus Christ can you type less and do more ?

Are there perhaps not some homeless people to feed in your town ?
You may as well say, "Hello, my name is sock account..." Ta da!!!! (jazz hands)

Enjoy your current persona
 





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#75
Actually there wont be any survivors on the Earth if you believe what the Bible truly says concerning the Day of the Lord, if you take 5 min of your busy life and read what I wrote I explain that fully, or dont and remain ignorant on a different perspective backed up by what the Word of God actually says ...
Hi @Daciple

As your friendly pre mil brother, what about this from Matthew 24?

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Looks like at least some of the believers will make it through alive to me.
 





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#76
Hi @Daciple

As your friendly pre mil brother, what about this from Matthew 24?

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Looks like at least some of the believers will make it through alive to me.
As my wonderful loving pre mil brother you believe that there will be an Earth that stands once Christ makes His 2nd appearance (actually 3rd of 4 to you). I believe that Scripture is quite clear in how the Events unfold. You have the rise of the Antichrist, the Tribulation which you are mentioning, that if Christ doesnt come back during all people would die, however Christ comes to save His Children and at His coming the Earth is destroyed. I made mention of that in the lengthy post I am being chided for by our lovely Toki:

Verses 3-5 (of Zec 14) are a Symbolic Picture of Jesus Return and what is going to happen. Verse 4 pictures Jesus creating an unexpected way of escape for his people; verse 5 pictures them using it. It is not speaking of Jesus literally standing on Mt Olive nor literally breaking a valley, just as it is not speaking of Ethnic Jews fleeing to some tiny village.

And God in the Old Testament would give His Children a place to flee when either the Enemy would come upon them and He was delivering them or He was bringing His Judgement:

Gen 19:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.


With this in mind we can see that in the Day of the Lord when the Earth is about to undergo its final destruction, the Lord will open a way Supernaturally for His Children to flee towards Him and once they are all secure then He will come and bring Judgement upon all their enemies. Further more THIS is what is actually spoken about in the New Testament, direct verses that show THIS happening and not some random 1000 yr gap and Jesus on Earth as seen here:

Jesus comes back for all too see:

Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

As everyone sees Him what else is happening at His Coming?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Then Jesus provides away for those to escape Supernaturally to Him:

1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


And finally He defeats our enemies once and for all:

Matt 13;42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


So we can see how the OT picture is truly fulfilled in the New Testament, what comes next are pictures of the World to come, the Judgement to come and the Worship to come...


My perspective which is also shown in OT veiled Prophecy, is that during the Tribulation Jesus comes and provides a Supernatural way out for His Children, then destroys the Earth as 2 Peter 3 plainly tells us, and then proceeds the Judgement and finally the New Heaven and New Earth. There is no literal 1000 yr Reign of Christ on the Earth, how can there be when it says plainly it will melt at the heat of His coming?
 





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#78
Really? You are going to use the Lords Name in Vain and then try and speak to me about what I should or shouldnt be doing?

If you dont want to read what I wrote then by all means dont, but to get upset because I wrote out a detailed post explaining my position is absurd. More of the "man if its over 140 Characters I cant read it" crowd. Dont buy a book or visit any websites with articles on it, Lord knows those people are just wastes of space that could be out feeding the homeless! I bet you show up to Book signings and harass people because they created a work over 1 paragraph.

Regardless, I hope maybe you take some time and read what I wrote, you just might learn something there brother, or not, IDC, God bless you either way!!!

Talk or type less and do more.

Show some restraints in your theology and do not burden your brothers with books but try to keep it short and sweet. You look through a glass darkly and so the more you or anybody else talk or type the darker the glass gets.

Christendom is not about writing commentaries but about doing good deeds. This is perhaps foreign to the easy gospel crowd who has been deluded into thinking that believing in Jesus Christ is all that matters.

To do good is more valuable to God than typing words which quite frankly are just too long and tiresome to read.

You have been reproved.
 





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#79
Are you going to repent for using the Lord’s name in vain? You’re work based right?

meh, its propably went under the rug like all your other sins.

Christendom is not about salvation by grace nor works but about obeying God's commands and do good.

What Jesus accomplished on the cross is the reason we can repent and be forgiven. Now go out and tell the Good News to everybody and do good while you do it.
 





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