Eye on Israel...(...and The Spiritual Battle Behind The War...)

[e-Enoch]

 

[Todd]

@phipps It's nice that you think you have your theology all figured and wrapped up in a nice little box. I used to be that way also. I'm guessing you have a pretty analytical mind. Those who do always start their walk with the Lord wanting to figure it all out and put God in a nice little box we can carry around 39and explain to everyone. It took me some time but I have learned that God is bigger than any box I can try to put him in. Yes I still use my analytical mind, but I've learned that it still must be in subjection to the Spirit. Whenever I think I have something figured out I always leave room for the Holy Spirit to adjust and shift what I think I believe.

It is easy to pull scriptures and create a narrative that fits in our little theology boxes, but rarely does one theology ever fit nicely in the context of all scripture. As you have shown there certainly are plenty of scriptures to make the case that the Christian Church has replaced Isreal or the Hebrew people in scripture, as long as you ignore many other scriptures and themes of the Bible.

For example the Feasts of Israel are prophetic pictures of the work of Christ. It is God's calendar. The spring festivals pointed to the first coming of Christ. Passover, Unleavened bread, First fruits and Pentecost, which were fulfilled in the death, buiral and resurrection of Christ, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Church. Each of these events occured exactly on the day of God's calendar as he intended. The Fall feasts will be the same way with the second coming of Jesus. He will prophetically fulfill the four fall feasts on the exact days of the calendar. God chose the Hebrew people to observe and follow these feasts, so his prophetic calendar would still be delared. The calendar has not been completed yet, so to think God would no longer need torah observing Jews is outside the big picture of the scriptures. The majority of the Christian Church barely even recognizes or acknowledges these feasts, let alone observe them and understand what they really mean and what they point too. God has protected and regathered the Jews so that his prophetic calendar is still be declared.

God made many promises that the nation of Israel would call on the Messiah and be saved. God is outside of time, so the fact that the Jews have not yet recongnized Jesus as their Messiah, does not move God, beause he sees "the beginning from the end". Jesus himself alludes to this in Matthew 24: 39. Luke 21:24 “and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Again Jesus alludes to the Jews being scattered during the time of the Gentiles but still includes that "until" statement, meaning they will return and have some part in God's plan. To think otherwise is dismissing the words of Jesus and the complete picture of scripture.

Whether you think it's God's will or the deception of the enemy, it's obvious to any bible scholar that there will be a third physical temple on Earth before Jesus returns. Only those claiming to be Torah observant descendants of Abraham, Issace and Jacob, could possibly re-build the temple.

For the LORD has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling place” (Ps. 132:13)
“For now I have chosen and sanctified this house, that My name may be there forever; and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually” (2 Chron. 7:16).
“But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven for it is God’s throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King” (Matt. 5:34–35).

All of this and much more that I'm not going to bother to point out right now, totally refuts your idea that Jerusalem is no longer important to God or the nation of Israel has no part in the prophetic calendar of God.

I agree that the Church is "spiritual Israel" and we can take the physical blessings and promises that were given to the Hebrews and apply them spiritually to ourselves. But that does not dismiss the fat that the physical fullfillment of many of those promises is yet to come. And without the nation of Israel and a torah observing group of people in Jerusalem, those promises cannot be fullfilled. God's word does not return to him void. The prophetic scriptures will be fullfilled both physically and spiritually!

I don't really disagree with any of the individual spiritual interpretations of scripture you present in this thread. I just think your big picture, overall conclusions are trying to fit God and your theology in a nice little box. I trust in time you will come to the same conclusion I have....that God's ways our so much higher than our ways and we will never fit him and his ways into our little theological boxes!

You and I are doing the best we can to play four dimensional chess (3 dimenions of space and the 4th dimension of time), where God is not bound by space, time or matter.

Yes, Jesus said seek and we will find, knock and the door will be opened. To the measure we seek and ask, we will be given glimpses but we will never completely grasp or comprehend his plan, his ways, his grace, his majesty and his goodness, as long as we are trapped in the mortal and corruptible bodies we currently inhabit.

 

[e-Enoch]

"Years of subterfuge, high-tech barrier paralyzed: How Hamas busted Israel’s defenses..."

Years of subterfuge, high-tech barrier paralyzed: How Hamas busted Israel’s defenses

IDF was fooled by terror group's messaging, over-relied on remote-controlled surveillance systems and weapons that were swiftly disabled by drones and snipers, enabling onslaught

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[e-Enoch]

"Surveillance footage from the Israeli Embassy in Denmark captured a disturbing incident involving masked individuals with the Palestinian flag who removed tributes left outside the building following a tragic attack by Hamas. This unsettling act occurred on October 8, one day after hundreds lost their lives in Israel due to a harrowing incursion by Hamas terrorists..."

DISTURBING: Tributes Trashed at Israeli Embassy in Denmark by Masked Suspects with Palestinian Fla..

Surveillance footage from the Israeli Embassy in Denmark captured a disturbing incident involving masked individuals with the Palestinian flag who removed tributes left outside the building following a tragic attack by Hamas. This unsettling act occurred on October 8, one day after hundreds lost...

www.bitchute.com

 

[e-Enoch]

 

[e-Enoch]

"THIS APPEARS TO BE A VIDEO OF SCORES OF WOMEN WHO WERE CAPTURED AT THE OUTDOOR RAVE BY HAMAS..."

This appears to be a video of scores of women who were captured at the outdoor rave by Hamas.

They allowed then to keep their phones so they could send out videos and messages. Is this to increase the world wide terror of what is happening? And here is a little more to think about. Mark my words the push to accept immigrants from Palestine is coming our way soon. The British have...

www.bitchute.com

 

[e-Enoch]

 

[e-Enoch]

 

[e-Enoch]

 

[phipps]

@Todd

It's nice that you think you have your theology all figured and wrapped up in a nice little box. I used to be that way also. I'm guessing you have a pretty analytical mind. Those who do always start their walk with the Lord wanting to figure it all out and put God in a nice little box we can carry around 39and explain to everyone. It took me some time but I have learned that God is bigger than any box I can try to put him in. Yes I still use my analytical mind, but I've learned that it still must be in subjection to the Spirit. Whenever I think I have something figured out I always leave room for the Holy Spirit to adjust and shift what I think I believe.

How condescending!

I don't have anything figured out nor is it wrapped up in a little box. I just trust in God's Word fully. I am still growing as a Christian and will never stop. God is the one who knows everything. God is bigger than I can even imagine that is why I try to follow His Word and not bring my own ideas and beliefs to His Word. I agree that we should leave room for the Holy Spirit to guide us in everything, that is how we grow in Christ everyday.

This does not change the truth of God's Word that the Jews are no longer a chosen nation in the New Testament. All those who are chosen are those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and have faith in Him as the Bible (God's message to us) clearly teaches. Now there is always room to learn more on this subject and I pray that I will through the Holy Spirit, but anything new I learn will not contradict this truth form God's Word. It will harmonise with it.

It is easy to pull scriptures and create a narrative that fits in our little theology boxes, but rarely does one theology ever fit nicely in the context of all scripture. As you have shown there certainly are plenty of scriptures to make the case that the Christian Church has replaced Isreal or the Hebrew people in scripture, as long as you ignore many other scriptures and themes of the Bible.

The Bible always harmonises and doesn't say one thing in one place and contradicts it another place. If the New Testament says Israel is the true Christian Church, its not going to contradict it elsewhere is it?

I've mentioned it a few times here, that people have got to search and study the Bible themselves. If someone posts passages from the Bible, they should go and read it in context which can be done by either reading a few verses before and after the passage or reading the entire chapter in order to understand what the scripture is telling us. I always do this. If you has done that, you would know the passages I posted are consistent with New Testament doctrine and the whole Bible in general.

So no, I didn't post scripture to prove a narrative. They are consistent with biblical doctrine up until all the righteous of all different races meet Jesus in the air, go back to heaven with Him and inhabit the New Jerusalem and will be with Christ forever.

For example the Feasts of Israel are prophetic pictures of the work of Christ. It is God's calendar. The spring festivals pointed to the first coming of Christ. Passover, Unleavened bread, First fruits and Pentecost, which were fulfilled in the death, buiral and resurrection of Christ, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Church. Each of these events occured exactly on the day of God's calendar as he intended. The Fall feasts will be the same way with the second coming of Jesus. He will prophetically fulfill the four fall feasts on the exact days of the calendar. God chose the Hebrew people to observe and follow these feasts, so his prophetic calendar would still be delared. The calendar has not been completed yet, so to think God would no longer need torah observing Jews is outside the big picture of the scriptures. The majority of the Christian Church barely even recognizes or acknowledges these feasts, let alone observe them and understand what they really mean and what they point too. God has protected and regathered the Jews so that his prophetic calendar is still be declared.

The Torah on its own without the New Testament is useless. We need both Testaments, one that prophesies and points to Christ and one that fulfils the prophecies in Christ.

If anyone keeps the ceremonial feasts which we are told were "nailed to the cross" (Colossians 2:14-17 and Ephesians 2:11-15), we belittle Christ's death on our behalf.

The ceremonial law and system was instituted by Jesus Himself. It was meant to function only as a type, a symbol of a future reality, the coming of Jesus and His death and High Priestly ministry. Once He completed His work on earth, this old system, along with its sacrifices and rituals and feasts were no longer needed, "It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" ( Hebrews 9:9-12). Though we no longer keep the ceremonial law today, by studying it we can garner insights into the plan of salvation.

Every Old Testament statute which pointed to the death of Christ (which therefore was a "shadow law") was abolished at the cross.

Even circumcision which does not appear to directly point to the death of Christ, was also eliminated. “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God” (Romans 2:28-29).

God made many promises that the nation of Israel would call on the Messiah and be saved. God is outside of time, so the fact that the Jews have not yet recongnized Jesus as their Messiah, does not move God, beause he sees "the beginning from the end". Jesus himself alludes to this in Matthew 24: 39. Luke 21:24 “and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Again Jesus alludes to the Jews being scattered during the time of the Gentiles but still includes that "until" statement, meaning they will return and have some part in God's plan. To think otherwise is dismissing the words of Jesus and the complete picture of scripture.

Because Jesus sees the beginning from the end is one of the reasons why we have the Bible. Its has prophecies showing us what is going to happen in the future so we can prepare ourselves and get closer to Him and learn to completely rely on Him. If something is not mentioned in the Bible which is God's message to us, should we just assume what he intends to do by telling ourselves, "God is outside of time, so the fact that the Jews have not yet recognized Jesus as their Messiah, does not move God, because he sees "the beginning from the end"?

Israel does call on God, its just that Israel in the New Covenant is all those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and have faith in Him. The Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah and they do not have faith in Him.

The Jews are not all going to one day realise that they have to accept Jesus as the Messiah and be saved. The Jews are like all mankind. They have to accept Jesus as Messiah individually when the Holy Spirit prompts them to. The Jews are not going to be saved as a nation either. They are going to be saved individually like we all are. God does not play favourites either.

I read Matthew 24:39 in context because you've misinterpreted it. From verse 36 to 44, these verses are talking about no one knowing the day or the hour of Jesus' return.

Luke 21:24 is one of the verses that Zionist Christians use to prove that God has a separate plan for Jews from the Church. In the New Testament Israel and the Church are one and the same thing. They are the followers of Christ/the righteous who have accepted Jesus as Saviour. The Bible does not contradict itself. So Paul would not call all Christians Israel regardless of race then Jesus' Words contradict Him. Secondly no where in the Bible is there two separate plans for Jews and the Church. There is only one plan for all the saved, Jew or Gentile.

Luke 21:20-24 is talking about the destruction of literal Jerusalem. Jesus was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Gentiles (the Romans) in AD 70. This could only happen because the temple lost its importance after Jesus' death. No one would be able to destroy the temple if God's presence was still there. No one would be able to enter the most holy room and not drop dead if the temple was still important. Since Jerusalem was the centre of Jewish life, they scattered around the world after the destruction.

"until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" does not mean the Jews would again re-inhabit the old city of Jerusalem. Jesus was aware that the Jewish race was about to lose its divine privileges, and this made Him weep. He said: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate" (Matthew 23:37-38).

The time of the Gentiles is going to go on until Jesus returns. Jerusalem will never be inhabited by a high and holy people like it was in the past, a people who loved and served God, after the time of the rejection of the Jews as God's people. Jerusalem could never be transformed into the New Jerusalem as God originally intended, but rather, it would be forever in secular hands (which it is in).

Jesus' kingdom is not of this world and certainly not the physical Israel the exists today. Jesus told Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world...” (John 18:36). Paul emphasized that both Jew and Gentiles become children of God when he said, “There is neither Jew nor Greek ...for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:28-29).

The real “Israel of God” is not a country in the Middle East, but those who trust and follow Christ. Its spiritual.

Whether you think it's God's will or the deception of the enemy, it's obvious to any bible scholar that there will be a third physical temple on Earth before Jesus returns. Only those claiming to be Torah observant descendants of Abraham, Issace and Jacob, could possibly re-build the temple.

If a third temple were rebuilt, it would be meaningless. If they reinstated the animal sacrifices that represented Jesus' death, would that not be an abomination to The Lord? It would be a rejection of the once for all sacrifice that Jesus made for our sins on the cross. The temple that now matters is the one in heaven where Jesus is our High Priest and mediator/advocate. The Bible says:

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Hebrews 8:6, "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises."

Hebrews 4:14-15, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin."

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Plus the New Testament tells us that the temple is the body of Jesus. Ephesians 2:19–22 says, “Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” (See also 1 Peter 2:5).

In the New Covenant the temple is a spiritual one but sadly many Christians who have misunderstood God's Word are waiting for the Jews to receive a construction permit to rebuild a physical temple on the site where a Muslim mosque now sits. However, there is no prophecy, promise, or commandment in the Bible that says the physical temple would ever be rebuilt after the Romans razed it nearly 2,000 years ago.

There is also no third temple in end time prophecy at all.

For the LORD has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling place” (Ps. 132:13)
“For now I have chosen and sanctified this house, that My name may be there forever; and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually” (2 Chron. 7:16).

Indeed they were chosen but this was in the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant failed because the Jews broke their promises to God.

“But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven for it is God’s throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King” (Matt. 5:34–35).

Matthew 5 is the beatitudes which are part of the sermon on the mount. You have misinterpreted these verses too. Verses 33-37 are about making promises we can't keep. Verse 37 says, "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."

All of this and much more that I'm not going to bother to point out right now, totally refuts your idea that Jerusalem is no longer important to God or the nation of Israel has no part in the prophetic calendar of God.

Jerusalem is important to God like all other cities in the world where humans live. Jerusalem is no longer a holy city and never will be again. This whole world is important to God and all mankind is important to Him. He wants us all to be saved and we can only be saved through Jesus Christ.

I agree that the Church is "spiritual Israel" and we can take the physical blessings and promises that were given to the Hebrews and apply them spiritually to ourselves. But that does not dismiss the fat that the physical fullfillment of many of those promises is yet to come. And without the nation of Israel and a torah observing group of people in Jerusalem, those promises cannot be fullfilled. God's word does not return to him void. The prophetic scriptures will be fullfilled both physically and spiritually!

The end time prophecies are not about literal physical Israel. In the New Testament literal Israel is not even mentioned much at all.

The New Testament is about God's Church which has both Jews and Gentiles who accept Jesus as their Saviour. End time prophecy is about how the world is going to turn on those who choose God over government laws that go against the word of God as i posted in my previous post. As Christians we should be looking forward to our eternal home which is not of this world as Jesus said.

I don't really disagree with any of the individual spiritual interpretations of scripture you present in this thread. I just think your big picture, overall conclusions are trying to fit God and your theology in a nice little box. I trust in time you will come to the same conclusion I have....that God's ways our so much higher than our ways and we will never fit him and his ways into our little theological boxes!

What you've done is presume to think what God is going to do even though He hasn't told us about it in His Word. You are second guessing God. None of us are in a position to do that. And you've misinterpreted His Word too.

So the irony is, you're the one that is trying to fit God and your theology in a little box. You're the one who is making a people who are the same as all other people in the world more special than they really are. The special people in the Bible are Israel/the church/the ones who accept Jesus as Messiah. "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him" (Acts 10:34-35).

You and I are doing the best we can to play four dimensional chess (3 dimenions of space and the 4th dimension of time), where God is not bound by space, time or matter.

Here you go again about how God is greater than us. I know He is, every Christian knows this. But He has given us the Bible as His truth, which is the only truth that matters, so we can get to know, understand, love and submit to Him. If its not written in the Bible who are we as mere human beings to second guess what God is going to do? Shouldn't we as Christians who accept Jesus as our Saviour accept and believe His Word and only His Word?

Yes, Jesus said seek and we will find, knock and the door will be opened. To the measure we seek and ask, we will be given glimpses but we will never completely grasp or comprehend his plan, his ways, his grace, his majesty and his goodness, as long as we are trapped in the mortal and corruptible bodies we currently inhabit.

Yes... we cannot completely comprehend most things about God. But has He not told us in His Word about some of it? Has He not told us who Israel is, how the Gentiles who obey and accept Him became part of Israel and how natural Jews left because their rejection of Christ? But that they can rejoin Israel if they come back and accept Christ (Romans 11)? Has He not given us end time prophecy and what is going to happen to His people Israel just before He returns and much much so more than I can mention here?

The Bible is the word of God that reveals God’s will and teaches us timeless lessons we can apply to all parts of our lives. It means we don't have to keep second-guessing ourselves, wondering what God is like and what He wants from us. It also means we take God at His Word and believe Him and if He hasn't told us something lets not assume to think what He's going do. That is a very dangerous thing to do that can lead to confusion, false doctrines and so forth that could lead to people losing their lives eternally.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." God created us and knows how much information He should give us and He has done exactly that.

 

[phipps]

 

[e-Enoch]

"X CEO says removed hundreds of Hamas-affiliated accounts from messaging platform..."

X CEO says removed hundreds of Hamas-affiliated accounts from messaging platform

X Chief executive officer Linda Yaccarino said on Thursday that the social media platform has removed hundreds

m.jpost.com

 

[IrrelevantPerson]

oh looky another war yawn zzzz yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzs

 

[Todd]

@Todd

This does not change the truth of God's Word that the Jews are no longer a chosen nation in the New Testament. All those who are chosen are those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and have faith in Him as the Bible (God's message to us) clearly teaches.

Now there is always room to learn more on this subject and I pray that I will through the Holy Spirit, but anything new I learn will not contradict this truth form God's Word. It will harmonise with it.

If this statement is true, and I hope that it is, I humbly ask you to study Romans chapter 11. The Church becomes fellow heirs, not a replacement for Israel.

The Torah on its own without the New Testament is useless. We need both Testaments, one that prophesies and points to Christ and one that fulfils the prophecies in Christ.

If anyone keeps the ceremonial feasts which we are told were "nailed to the cross" (Colossians 2:14-17 and Ephesians 2:11-15), we belittle Christ's death on our behalf.

Colossians 2:14-17 simply says we should not judge whether one keeps a festival or not. No where does it say that those who still observe them are belittling Christ's death. The Fall feasts have not yet been fullfilled so observing them as a foreshadow of what is to come is still valid. The Communion table is the observance of Passover. When Jesus said "as often as you do this" he was specifically saying when you celebrate Passover remember his death until he returns again. If we take Jesus' words literally, one could make a strong argument that we should still observe Passover and not the watered down version of communion that the Chruch does. I'm not personally making that argument, just pointing out that if you take communion you are technically still observing the feast of Passover. The point I'm really making is that we should not judge either way if one chooses either way to observe the feasts.

The ceremonial law and system was instituted by Jesus Himself. It was meant to function only as a type, a symbol of a future reality, the coming of Jesus and His death and High Priestly ministry. Once He completed His work on earth, this old system, along with its sacrifices and rituals and feasts were no longer needed, "It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" ( Hebrews 9:9-12). Though we no longer keep the ceremonial law today, by studying it we can garner insights into the plan of salvation.

Every Old Testament statute which pointed to the death of Christ (which therefore was a "shadow law") was abolished at the cross.

Even circumcision which does not appear to directly point to the death of Christ, was also eliminated. “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God” (Romans 2:28-29).

Agree whole heartedly with you here. If/when the Third temple is built, I will not be participating in the sacrifices. But if the Jewish people choose to reinstate them, it is still a symbolic shadow of what Christ has done. Why not believe that God can still use that prophetic symbolic picture to bring a Messianic revival among the Jews. Paul calls the salvation of Israel a mystery. It does not contradict scripture to hope for that.

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[d] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[e] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Because Jesus sees the beginning from the end is one of the reasons why we have the Bible. Its has prophecies showing us what is going to happen in the future so we can prepare ourselves and get closer to Him and learn to completely rely on Him. If something is not mentioned in the Bible which is God's message to us, should we just assume what he intends to do by telling ourselves, "God is outside of time, so the fact that the Jews have not yet recognized Jesus as their Messiah, does not move God, because he sees "the beginning from the end"?

I assumed nothing. Romans 11 says God has a purpose for the Jews not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.. That purpose is so that you , a Gentile could be grafted in! Their disobedience has made room for the grace you have received!

Israel does call on God, its just that Israel in the New Covenant is all those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and have faith in Him. The Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah and they do not have faith in Him.

The Jews are not all going to one day realise that they have to accept Jesus as the Messiah and be saved. The Jews are like all mankind. They have to accept Jesus as Messiah individually when the Holy Spirit prompts them to. The Jews are not going to be saved as a nation either. They are going to be saved individually like we all are. God does not play favourites either.

Again...Romans chapter 11.

No sense discussing whether a 3rd temple is mentioned in prophecy if we can't agree up to this point.

Bottom line is that prophecy is fulfilled in both the natural and the spiritual. I take both the literal natural interpretation and the spiritual interpretation together. It's not a matter of choosing one over the other. Time is a part of creation. God is outside of time. To say he was okay with a temple and sacrifices as a picture and symbol of Christ's death and resurrection before it happened, but after it suddenly becomes a belittlement of what Christ did, has no basis in scripture. God is the same today, yesterday and forever.

Yes, when we have a revelation of what Christ did, we do not need or require the temple and the sacrificial system, but I see nothing in scripture to say that it offends God for those things to be observed. God is patient and long suffering. It is his will that all of Israel (physical and spiritual) be saved. Is God not capable of fullfilling his will? Is man's stubborness and will, able to supercede God's will?

 

[Todd]

@Todd

How condescending!

I'm sorry. Please forgive me! Was not my intent, but after re-reading, I can see it did come across that way.

 

[Flarepath]

..God has protected and regathered the Jews so that his prophetic calendar is still be declared...

Sure, God had the jews backs in Old T times, but then they killed his son, so if they're still his "chosen people" I'm Mary Poppins, and the only chance they (and all other nonchristians) have got of avoiding going up the spout on judgement day is to convert to Christianity before they die..

 

[IrrelevantPerson]

Sure, God had the jews backs in Old T times, but then they killed his son, so if they're still his "chosen people" I'm Mary Poppins, and the only chance they (and all other nonchristians) have got of avoiding going up the spout on judgement day is to convert to Christianity before they die..

View attachment 93090

is heaven real place and if so do god accept anyone even if they no believe in it fully?

 

[Todd]

Sure, God had the jews backs in Old T times, but then they killed his son, so if they're still his "chosen people" I'm Mary Poppins, and the only chance they (and all other nonchristians) have got of avoiding going up the spout on judgement day is to convert to Christianity before they die..

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Nice to meet you Mary Poppins. I'm curious what else you have in your carpet bag today!

 

[phipps]

@Todd

If this statement is true, and I hope that it is, I humbly ask you to study Romans chapter 11. The Church becomes fellow heirs, not a replacement for Israel.

The statement is true. Lets always remember that the Bible always harmonises on every subject. Paul also did not contradict Himself.

With that in mind, I have read Romans 11 and I've posted on it before. Paul says that God has not cast the Jews away. The Jews stopped being a chosen nation but God did not cast them away. God does not cast anyone away. Jews can come to Christ individually if they accept Jesus as Messiah.

Paul then goes on to say, "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:25). The fullness of the Gentiles means the gospel has been preached to all the world. The coming of Jesus is near. At this point, then, many Jews start coming to Jesus.

Then Paul says in verse 26, "And so all Israel will be saved..." This must not be understood to mean that every Jew will by some divine decree have salvation in the end time. Nowhere do the Scriptures preach universalism, either for the entire human race or for a particular segment. Paul was hoping to save “some of them” (Romans 11:14). Some accepted the Messiah, and some rejected Him, as it is with all people groups in the world.

Colossians 2:14-17 simply says we should not judge whether one keeps a festival or not. No where does it say that those who still observe them are belittling Christ's death. The Fall feasts have not yet been fullfilled so observing them as a foreshadow of what is to come is still valid. The Communion table is the observance of Passover. When Jesus said "as often as you do this" he was specifically saying when you celebrate Passover remember his death until he returns again. If we take Jesus' words literally, one could make a strong argument that we should still observe Passover and not the watered down version of communion that the Chruch does. I'm not personally making that argument, just pointing out that if you take communion you are technically still observing the feast of Passover. The point I'm really making is that we should not judge either way if one chooses either way to observe the feasts.

Then again you misunderstood scripture. Colossians 2:14 describes the handwriting of ordinances as being “against us” and “contrary to us.” Paul writes that Christ “took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.” “The handwriting of ordinances” refers to the ceremonial law, which pointed to the ministry of Christ.

Paul also states in Ephesians 2:15, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.” This law of ordinances was a “shadow of things to come” (Colossians 2:17), a symbolic representation of Christ's coming and return. Upon His death, Jesus fulfilled the first step of the sanctuary service—the sacrifice of the lamb to take away the sinner’s guilt.

To celebrate the passover where they slaughtered an animal that represented Jesus's death for our sins is an abomination and is denying Jesus' death. After His death, there was no more need for animal sacrifices.

Jesus was definitely talking about the communion service or the Lord's supper not the passover.

All the things in the Lord's supper are symbolic of Christ's sacrifice to save us. The unleavened bread that we are to eat represents Christ’s body, broken for us. Matthew wrote, “And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, ‘Take, eat; this is My body’” (Matthew 26:26).
This goes hand in hand with what Jesus said about Himself in other passages in the Bible. “I am the bread of life,” Jesus said (John 6:48). He went on to explain, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world” (John 6:51).

Also leaving in the Bible represented sin. Paul wrote, “Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth” (1 Corinthians 5:6-8).

The unfermented wine or grape juice symbolizes Jesus’ blood that was shed for us. “This is My blood of the new covenant,” said Jesus, “which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). “Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” (Hebrews 9:22)

The foot-washing service follows Jesus’ words and actions in John 13: “If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you” (verses 14-15).

The Passover was also a reminder of the deliverance of the Israelites from Egyptian slavery. The Lord’s Supper is a reminder of our personal deliverance from the slavery of sin. We have been redeemed, not with gold or silver, but “with the precious blood of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:18-19).

How can such a service be watered down? Only if one doesn't understand it.

The last three feasts are about the end time and Jesus' second coming. They are the feast of trumpets, the feast of tabernacles and the day of atonement. The Jews do not believe in Jesus as Messiah, why keep them at all? Its pointless. And we don't have to keep the feasts any more.

Agree whole heartedly with you here. If/when the Third temple is built, I will not be participating in the sacrifices. But if the Jewish people choose to reinstate them, it is still a symbolic shadow of what Christ has done. Why not believe that God can still use that prophetic symbolic picture to bring a Messianic revival among the Jews. Paul calls the salvation of Israel a mystery. It does not contradict scripture to hope for that.

If the Jews reinstate and sacrifices they will definitely be saying 'we do not need a Saviour and He did not die for us. We reject Him.' Which they already do anyway. No human being Jew or Gentile should be reinstating ceremonial feasts that pointed to Jesus' death. He has already died for our sins and that is that. You are wrong on this point and it is not biblical teaching at all.

I assumed nothing. Romans 11 says God has a purpose for the Jews not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.. That purpose is so that you , a Gentile could be grafted in! Their disobedience has made room for the grace you have received!

You did and bringing up how great God is won't change that. God has told us all that we need to know in the Bible. You've misunderstood Romans 11 as I explained above and made Paul contradict Himself. He doesn't, its just he's misunderstood.

Again...Romans chapter 11.

No sense discussing whether a 3rd temple is mentioned in prophecy if we can't agree up to this point.

Bottom line is that prophecy is fulfilled in both the natural and the spiritual. I take both the literal natural interpretation and the spiritual interpretation together. It's not a matter of choosing one over the other. Time is a part of creation. God is outside of time. To say he was okay with a temple and sacrifices as a picture and symbol of Christ's death and resurrection before it happened, but after it suddenly becomes a belittlement of what Christ did, has no basis in scripture. God is the same today, yesterday and forever.

I've explained Romans 11 above and it goes hand in hand with all biblical doctrine. Yes prophecy is fulfilled but none of it will contradict biblical doctrine. If it does, then its usually us a humans who've misinterpreted it.

If you can't see how keeping ceremonial feasts is wrong and an insult to God, I don't know what else to say to you.

Paul told us in Colossians 2:14 that when Christ was crucified He was “…Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.” The temporary handwritten ordinances of feast days (etc.) were blotted out by the cross. The sacrificial system of types and shadows pointing to the “lamb of God” was now unnecessary, because the real Lamb of God (Christ) had fulfilled all the symbolic meaning in these ceremonies and feasts.

So again no one, Jew or Gentile, has to observe the feast days. The reality they were pointing towards has already happened.

Yes God is the same today, yesterday and forever but He has done away with the sacrificial system because the Lamb that takes away our sins has fulfilled those feasts. If we observe them we are disobeying Christ.

Yes, when we have a revelation of what Christ did, we do not need or require the temple and the sacrificial system, but I see nothing in scripture to say that it offends God for those things to be observed.

Do you need to be told specifically in the Bible that reinstating ceremonial feasts that were a shadow to the cross offend Christ? Isn't obvious to you that they are? It is an abomination to do that because its saying you don't accept Christ's sacrifice for us.

God is patient and long suffering. It is his will that all of Israel (physical and spiritual) be saved. Is God not capable of fullfilling his will? Is man's stubborness and will, able to supercede God's will?

And all Israel will be saved, i.e. all those who accept Christ as their saviour and have faith in Him.

God want all humanity to be saved but it will be up to all us to choose to let Him in our lives individually. If we let God in our hearts and lives, He transforms us from the inside out. All those who will be lost will have rejected Christ. It will be because of their choices. Again not all Jews are going to be saved, only those who accept Christ as their Saviour. This is consistent with all biblical doctrine.

 

[phipps]

I'm sorry. Please forgive me! Was not my intent, but after re-reading, I can see it did come across that way.

Its okay especially if you didn't mean it. I know I come across like that sometimes too. God bless.