The Rapture

[Thunderian]

Hi everyone, since the pre-wrath thread is not open for questions, I figured that those who want to discuss different points of view of the rapture could do so here.

It really does boil down to whether or not you feel the Church goes through any part of the Tribulation. The pre-tribulation view holds that it does not, and that is the view I am going to go through for this thread.

I welcome anyone who holds a different view or who has questions to post away and I will try and answer as many posts as I can. I know there are others who hold the same view I do, and I'm happy to let them chime in as well. With all that said, I present my scriptural argument for the pre-tribulation rapture.

The key passages for pre-trib point of view are found in 1 Corinthians 15 and in 1 Thessalonians 4. These are not the only verses that pertain to this view, but they are a good start, so let's start there.

1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The key points we can take from those verses are:

• the Rapture has to do with the Church
• believers bodies will be changed
• Christ returns in the air
• the Rapture brings comfort

So when does this happen? Well, the Bible tells us it could happen at any time. We are expressly told that no one knows when Jesus will return for us except God, and that it will be an event that will take the world by surprise. The Bible compares the return of Jesus for his saints as being like a thief in the night.

One serious problem with every other view of the timing of the rapture is that there is no immanency. Once the Tribulation has started, one can literally count the days until the second coming of Jesus Christ. But what does the Bible say?

Matthew 24:
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The story of Noah is just one of the types of rapture we see in the Bible, where God warns people of impending doom, and removes the righteous before any judgement occurs. Other types of rapture the Bible tells us of are Lot and his family, and Rahab and her family.

Another problem with any other view of the timing of the rapture is that the Church always goes through at least part of God's wrath. This not only goes against the other types of rapture in the Bible, but against the specific words of scripture itself that are addressed to the Church.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus Christ himself tells the church at Philadelphia, Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Paul refers to Jesus Christ as the one which delivered us from the wrath to come. If the Church was to experience any part of the Tribulation up to the wrath part, then Paul would have said that Jesus is the one which will deliver us. But if you believe in the immanency of Jesus Christ's return for the Church before the Tribulation ever starts, that verse makes sense as is.

More clues that the Church doesn't go through the Tribulation are found in Revelation. Revelation 4:1 is seen as a picture of the rapture of the Church.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John is probably the only writer of the Bible who had access to all of Paul's writings on the Church, he refers to himself as the apostle whom Christ loved, and he can be seen as a type of the Church. So in the above verse, a door in Heaven (where Jesus Christ is now) opens and God says with a voice like a trumpet, Come up here.

And while we are on the subject of trumpets, it should be noted that the "last trump" that sounds at the rapture does not need to be the seventh trumpet of Revelation. Those who hold other views seem to think it has to be, but this doesn't fit with any of the views of the Rapture, if you think about it.

There is plenty of wrath before the seventh trumpet of Revelation, so if the rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet, then the Church goes through wrath and God is a liar. I have to admit, I don't know why it's referred to as the "last" trump. There have been other trumpets in the Bible, and this could mean it's the last of them. It could just mean it's the last trump before the tribulation. I don't think it makes any sense to throw away every other piece of evidence FOR a pre-trib rapture because we can't identify what God means when he says "last".

More evidence from Revelation that the Church does not go through the Tribulation is that after Revelation 4:1, when John is called by the trumpet of God up into Heaven, the church is never mentioned in Revelation again. We read of saints, and the elect, but these are terms that can be applied to believers in any age.

There is another very compelling argument for the Church not going through the Tribulation, and it's based on the final part of God's plan of redemption for his people, Israel.

Paul wrote in Romans 11 of the spiritual blindness of Israel, and how that relates to the Church.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved ...

I am going to continue with that in a later post, but I wanted to post this and get the ball rolling. Like I said, all questions and debate are welcomed, and those who hold a pre-trib view, please add whatever I may have neglected.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Hi everyone, since the pre-wrath thread is not open for questions, I figured that those who want to discuss different points of view of the rapture could do so here.

It really does boil down to whether or not you feel the Church goes through any part of the Tribulation. The pre-tribulation view holds that it does not, and that is the view I am going to go through for this thread.

I welcome anyone who holds a different view or who has questions to post away and I will try and answer as many posts as I can. I know there are others who hold the same view I do, and I'm happy to let them chime in as well. With all that said, I present my scriptural argument for the pre-tribulation rapture.

The key passages for pre-trib point of view are found in 1 Corinthians 15 and in 1 Thessalonians 4. These are not the only verses that pertain to this view, but they are a good start, so let's start there.

1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The key points we can take from those verses are:

• the Rapture has to do with the Church
• believers bodies will be changed
• Christ returns in the air
• the Rapture brings comfort

So when does this happen? Well, the Bible tells us it could happen at any time. We are expressly told that no one knows when Jesus will return for us except God, and that it will be an event that will take the world by surprise. The Bible compares the return of Jesus for his saints as being like a thief in the night.

One serious problem with every other view of the timing of the rapture is that there is no immanency. Once the Tribulation has started, one can literally count the days until the second coming of Jesus Christ. But what does the Bible say?

Matthew 24:
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The story of Noah is just one of the types of rapture we see in the Bible, where God warns people of impending doom, and removes the righteous before any judgement occurs. Other types of rapture the Bible tells us of are Lot and his family, and Rahab and her family.

Another problem with any other view of the timing of the rapture is that the Church always goes through at least part of God's wrath. This not only goes against the other types of rapture in the Bible, but against the specific words of scripture itself that are addressed to the Church.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus Christ himself tells the church at Philadelphia, Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Paul refers to Jesus Christ as the one which delivered us from the wrath to come. If the Church was to experience any part of the Tribulation up to the wrath part, then Paul would have said that Jesus is the one which will deliver us. But if you believe in the immanency of Jesus Christ's return for the Church before the Tribulation ever starts, that verse makes sense as is.

More clues that the Church doesn't go through the Tribulation are found in Revelation. Revelation 4:1 is seen as a picture of the rapture of the Church.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John is probably the only writer of the Bible who had access to all of Paul's writings on the Church, he refers to himself as the apostle whom Christ loved, and he can be seen as a type of the Church. So in the above verse, a door in Heaven (where Jesus Christ is now) opens and God says with a voice like a trumpet, Come up here.

And while we are on the subject of trumpets, it should be noted that the "last trump" that sounds at the rapture does not need to be the seventh trumpet of Revelation. Those who hold other views seem to think it has to be, but this doesn't fit with any of the views of the Rapture, if you think about it.

There is plenty of wrath before the seventh trumpet of Revelation, so if the rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet, then the Church goes through wrath and God is a liar. I have to admit, I don't know why it's referred to as the "last" trump. There have been other trumpets in the Bible, and this could mean it's the last of them. It could just mean it's the last trump before the tribulation. I don't think it makes any sense to throw away every other piece of evidence FOR a pre-trib rapture because we can't identify what God means when he says "last".

More evidence from Revelation that the Church does not go through the Tribulation is that after Revelation 4:1, when John is called by the trumpet of God up into Heaven, the church is never mentioned in Revelation again. We read of saints, and the elect, but these are terms that can be applied to believers in any age.

There is another very compelling argument for the Church not going through the Tribulation, and it's based on the final part of God's plan of redemption for his people, Israel.

Paul wrote in Romans 11 of the spiritual blindness of Israel, and how that relates to the Church.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved ...

I am going to continue with that in a later post, but I wanted to post this and get the ball rolling. Like I said, all questions and debate are welcomed, and those who hold a pre-trib view, please add whatever I may have neglected.

I am in agreement with you here. I am in a minority in holding the Pre-Trib view in the Church I go to, which has led me to deepen my understanding of the issues, questions and objections people have against that view...

Important caveat - summed up by a chat with one of my pre-wrath friends at this church... 'If the church is Raptured prior to the Tribulation then you will be there with me and we can have a glass of heavenly wine to celebrate. If the Antichrist shows up and confirms a Middle-East peace treaty, then you can take me out for a beer to drown my sorrows!!!'

This is not a salvation issue and not one that should lead to division and point scoring, so to all sides if the debate, 'play nicely'!!!

 

[Thunderian]

Red Sky at Morning, That's interesting that you attend a church that's not pre-trib when you are. Can I ask what denomination it is, if any?

I agree that we don't need to fight about it. Discussions on disagreements will only get us into the Bible, and that's never a bad thing. I'm hoping to hear from those with different points of view.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Red Sky at Morning, That's interesting that you attend a church that's not pre-trib when you are. Can I ask what denomination it is, if any?

I agree that we don't need to fight about it. Discussions on disagreements will only get us into the Bible, and that's never a bad thing. I'm hoping to hear from those with different points of view.

I actually have fellowship with people in three churches at the moment!!! I'm not really in to denominations and the church I feel most comfortable at is non-denominational, Spirit filled and mainly African. I am also a member of a Methodist church and sometimes visit a local Church of England one as well. I have also worshipped at Baptist and Pentecostal churches but in general, if someone sets aside the Bible and starts with the line "Our denomination teaches that..." I tend to switch off!!!

 

[Lisa]

1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The key points we can take from those verses are:

• the Rapture has to do with the Church
• believers bodies will be changed
• Christ returns in the air
• the Rapture brings comfort

So when does this happen? Well, the Bible tells us it could happen at any time. We are expressly told that no one knows when Jesus will return for us except God, and that it will be an event that will take the world by surprise. The Bible compares the return of Jesus for his saints as being like a thief in the night.

One serious problem with every other view of the timing of the rapture is that there is no immanency. Once the Tribulation has started, one can literally count the days until the second coming of Jesus Christ. But what does the Bible say?

Matthew 24:
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The story of Noah is just one of the types of rapture we see in the Bible, where God warns people of impending doom, and removes the righteous before any judgement occurs. Other types of rapture the Bible tells us of are Lot and his family, and Rahab and her family.

Another problem with any other view of the timing of the rapture is that the Church always goes through at least part of God's wrath. This not only goes against the other types of rapture in the Bible, but against the specific words of scripture itself that are addressed to the Church.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

But, it is only God's wrath that we won't go through, we will be going through the first 6 seals. The fifth seal being that many will be martyrd for their testimony. I know that people believe that we will be raptured and then millions of people will suddenly "get it" and believe and those people go through the tribulation, but I don't think that's what the Bible says. Why would we be given an out and then new Christina's wouldn't be?

Paul says that we will know who the anti is, so we will be there to at least the midpoint.



In Revelation 3:10, Jesus Christ himself tells the church at Philadelphia, Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Paul refers to Jesus Christ as the one which delivered us from the wrath to come. If the Church was to experience any part of the Tribulation up to the wrath part, then Paul would have said that Jesus is the one which will deliver us. But if you believe in the immanency of Jesus Christ's return for the Church before the Tribulation ever starts, that verse makes sense as is.

Semantics, both mean the same thing...we will be delivered when God starts His wrath, not before. God says that we will be give the testimony to the world. In Mark 13 we are told what is to befall us.
Mark 13:9-13 But be on your guard' for they will deliver you to the courts and you will be flogged in the synagogues and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake as a testimony to them. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. When they arrest you and hand you over do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak but it is the Holy Spirit. Brother will betray brother to death and a father his child and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name but the one who endures to the end will be saved.


More clues that the Church doesn't go through the Tribulation are found in Revelation. Revelation 4:1 is seen as a picture of the rapture of the Church.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John is probably the only writer of the Bible who had access to all of Paul's writings on the Church, he refers to himself as the apostle whom Christ loved, and he can be seen as a type of the Church. So in the above verse, a door in Heaven (where Jesus Christ is now) opens and God says with a voice like a trumpet, Come up here.

I don't even know how this verse is even with the rapture verses. I think its totally misrepresented. It is John who has gone up to heaven so he could write down all these things for us...he isn't a type of the church and we somehow go with him. God wanted us to know what was going to happen and He brought John up to write to us...just like all the apostles wrote to the church about various things.



And while we are on the subject of trumpets, it should be noted that the "last trump" that sounds at the rapture does not need to be the seventh trumpet of Revelation. Those who hold other views seem to think it has to be, but this doesn't fit with any of the views of the Rapture, if you think about it.

There is plenty of wrath before the seventh trumpet of Revelation, so if the rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet, then the Church goes through wrath and God is a liar. I have to admit, I don't know why it's referred to as the "last" trump. There have been other trumpets in the Bible, and this could mean it's the last of them. It could just mean it's the last trump before the tribulation. I don't think it makes any sense to throw away every other piece of evidence FOR a pre-trib rapture because we can't identify what God means when he says "last".

Isn't the last trump the 7th one, the one before all the bowl of wrath are poured out?



More evidence from Revelation that the Church does not go through the Tribulation is that after Revelation 4:1, when John is called by the trumpet of God up into Heaven, the church is never mentioned in Revelation again. We read of saints, and the elect, but these are terms that can be applied to believers in any age.

And yet we are mentioned at the 5th seal-martyrdom! If you read Revelation 4:1 and the messages to the churches, What the churches have in common is the message at the end of each one...to he who overcomes...and what will be given if they overcome. If we are taken out before the trib, what do we really need to overcome?

There is another very compelling argument for the Church not going through the Tribulation, and it's based on the final part of God's plan of redemption for his people, Israel.

Paul wrote in Romans 11 of the spiritual blindness of Israel, and how that relates to the Church.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved ...

Doesn't that just say that once all the gentiles are saved then God starts to work on His chosen people? We all have different roles in the end. Doesn't their portion begin after the anti is revealed...because until he is revealed they are still under the treaty?



I am going to continue with that in a later post, but I wanted to post this and get the ball rolling. Like I said, all questions and debate are welcomed, and those who hold a pre-trib view, please add whatever I may have neglected.


Edit:
Luke 21.36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think its worth doing the big picture stuff first on this one... I have a picture in my kitchen wall (that won't upload!!!!) that encourages me to stand back and take an overview before getting stuck on the details...

Anyway, the 'standing back' issue is this. Many awake Christians can see that we are in the season of time that the Bible describes as the end times. Certainly when I was younger I never contemplated what that might mean in terms of my own life and choices. We all come from different spiritual backgrounds and have people in our lives or speaking into our lives whose views we respect. One thing I would recommend before wading in is to look at the range of possible interpretations for particular verses before zooming in on one (eg trumpets have loads of applications and patterns in the Bible from the silver trumpets telling Israel to move on to the next stage in their journey through the wilderness, to the feast of trumpets, to the various trumpets of Revelation and perhaps a few more I have missed!)

I have to say, does a question get more emotive than possibly being at the jumping off point of Daniel's seventieth week and not having any assurance about how it might work out and what might happen to us and those we love, or alternatively being softened up and taken off guard by a 'Christian Fairy Story' prior to a time of unprecedented deception and persecution.

I found a good synopsis of reasons that I take as quite persuasive for a pre-trib position done by Chuck Missler in two parts (clips at the end).

I want to make another point though - I had been very focussed on the Blood Moons as being potential markers for a Rapture (I know! - I never read the bit about that happening 'BEFORE the Day of the Lord' - doh!) Anyway, as I lay there looking up out of the window at the red moon and expecting the Rapture at any moment, I realised that if that was the case, I would likely stand before Jesus and have my works judged, leaving only what was silver and gold. In that moment I was horrified at just how much of my life had been spent on my own little kingdom, and not building His. I was glad to have a next morning and the chance to live differently!

Anyway, please forgive my rambling and God bless everyone who is truly seeking Him.

 

[colson]

Hi everyone, since the pre-wrath thread is not open for questions, I figured that those who want to discuss different points of view of the rapture could do so here.


I am going to continue with that in a later post, but I wanted to post this and get the ball rolling. Like I said, all questions and debate are welcomed, and those who hold a pre-trib view, please add whatever I may have neglected.

the whisked away rapture... oh how I despise thee..

just because Jesus will keep us from the wrath (more on this in a bit) doesn't mean that we are magically whisked away...

(and thank you for actually posting the verses, most will not bother doing that)
when Paul says "
1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It says the 'last trump'... not 1st trumpet, not 1st Seal either (and yes, in the Greek, that word for 'trump' is G4536, which means 'trumpet'). Also, the living are changed, but the immortality that we receive is freedom from the second death, ie death of our souls, spiritual death.

1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

As to 'meeting the Lord in the air', Paul is using Greek to describe Hebrew ideas, in particular, the Hebrew H7307, 'ruach' which means 'wind, breath, air, spirit. http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7307.htm We will meet Jesus in the spirit, because we will have been purified - on earth - by refusing to worship the beast or taking the mark of the beast.

"But, but, Jesus takes the Church out of the tribulation!"
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

When we stay faithful, we will refuse to join with the beast and the mark of the beast system. If the mark of the beast is indeed a microchip, and it has a drop of cyanide within it according to one patent that was filed, people who take the mark are killing themselves - they just won't know it until it is too late.

there is an evil church (symbolized by Jezebel, who we can recognize by its promotion of sexual immorality) who tricks Christians into following the beast.

the good church (which we will be able to recognize by its brotherly love of all people) will refuse to join with the beast system.

as to there being a 'pre-trib' whisked away rapture, the pre-trib aspect is problematic too:

in Matt 12

22Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.” 25Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.

28But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. 30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.​

if the mark of the beast is indeed unforgivable, then this 'blasphemy against the holy spirit' is a reference to this. the 'strong man' is the antichrist/ false prophet and the 'plunder' is where Jesus is 'seizing the church'. The 'plunder' is G726 'harpazo' which means 'seize, steal'. That's why he comes 'as a thief' during the 7 bowls of wrath in Rev 16:15

(“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)​

the 'gathering' in verse 30 above is a reference to Matt 24

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

 

[colson]

there is 'great tribulation' during the 7 seals
the 'sun, moon darkened, stars fall etc' is the 6th seal (Rev 6

12When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
​

then the elect are saved out of it,(just like Jesus said earlier), at the 7th Seal - the 144,000 of DNA Israel and the 'great multitude'/ white robed Christians

13Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

Jesus, per se, does not gather people - it is His angels/ messengers

Recall from Leviticus (and Deut etc) there is the Mosaic covenant: blessings for obedience, curses for disobedience. The 144,000 and the great multitude of Christians of the 7th seal are now receiving the blessings for obedience.

The disobedient are receiving 7 plague (aka the 7 trumpets)

14“But if you will not listen to me and will not do all these commandments, 15if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant, 16then I will do this to you: I will visit you with panic, with wasting disease and fever that consume the eyes and make the heart ache. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down before your enemies. Those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee when none pursues you. 18And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins, 19and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. 20And your strength shall be spent in vain, for your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit.

21“Then if you walk contrary to me and will not listen to me, I will continue striking you, sevenfold for your sins. 22And I will let loose the wild beasts against you, which shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock and make you few in number, so that your roads shall be deserted.

23“And if by this discipline you are not turned to me but walk contrary to me, 24then I also will walk contrary to you, and I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins. 25And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute vengeance for the covenant. And if you gather within your cities, I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.​

that's why there are '7 trumpets' and '7 bowls of wrath'

the disobedient receive the 7 trumpets against them (that's why the 'wrath' starts at the 1st trumpet, announced at the 6th seal at Rev 6 posted above)

the disobedient are still disobedient and thus will receive 7 more plagues against them (that's why at the 6th Trumpet it says:

20The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.​

when they don't repent, they receive 7 more plagues (the 7 bowls of wrath)

one last bit as to the 'pre-trib' notion
Matt 24

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
​

I hope it is clear from this passage that the 'great tribulation' starts - then it is cut short - THEN false christs arise to try to deceive the elect. What's going on here? the great tribulation occurs, people think it is literally the end of the world happening, then a christ figure comes.... the great tribulation makes people think that this christ figure is really Jesus Christ!

that's enough for now

 

[Dumloko]

Hi Thunderian. It's an interesting topic you have brought up to discuss. I would like to respectfully present a different view, obviously with the foundation of the Holy Scriptures.

Revelation 7:9,10 and 14 says: “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!’ [...] ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation.’"

To “come out” of something a person must go into it or be in it. So this great multitude must be persons who actually experience the great tribulation and come out of it as survivors. This group of people are the "other sheep" Jesus mentioned in John 10:16, which would form "one flock, one sheepherd" along with the "little flock" of chosen ones mentioned in Luke 12:32. This crowd is also the "new earth" of 2 Peter 3:13, the new society under the "new heavens", the heavenly goverment of Christ and his chosen ones. Their earthly hope is confirmed in Psalm 37:29: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." And Paul wrote about “the inhabited earth to come" in Hebrews 2:3,5.

So there will be people who won't be caught up to heaven, but survive the great tribulation and have everlasting life on earth as Christ's subjects, if they pay attention to Zephaniah 2:3:
"Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth,
Who observe his righteous decrees.
Seek righteousness, seek meekness.
Probably you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger."

Now regarding the chosen ones, as you quoted 1 Corinthians 15:51,52, they shall be changed in order to reach heaven, as "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" (verse 50). They must die before receiving a spiritual body (Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 15:35,36,44), but they won't be in that state for long. "In the twinkling of an eye" they will be with the Lord. This event is the "earlier resurrection" Paul mentioned in Philipians 3:10,11, and the "first resurrection" of Revelation 20:6.

When would they be caught up? Matthew 24:21,22 reads: "Then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” This verse doesn't give us the idea that the chosen ones will be taken before the tribulation, but it holds the prospect that they will be protected during that difficult time, along the great crowd of associates in the flesh. So it's safe to say they will be caught up in some moment during the tribulation, before it's ending in Armageddon.

For those of the chosen ones who died before Christ's coming, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says they "will rise first". Their resurrection occurs "during his [Christ's] presence" (1 Corinthians 15:23), which began in 1914 (how to reach that year is an interesting analysis on Daniel's prophetic book, chapter 4, maybe food for another thread).

 

[Thunderian]

But, it is only God's wrath that we won't go through, we will be going through the first 6 seals. The fifth seal being that many will be martyrd for their testimony. I know that people believe that we will be raptured and then millions of people will suddenly "get it" and believe and those people go through the tribulation, but I don't think that's what the Bible says. Why would we be given an out and then new Christina's wouldn't be?

Paul says that we will know who the anti is, so we will be there to at least the midpoint.

Where does Paul say we (the Church) will know who the antichrist is, and what makes you believe that he won't be revealed until the midpoint of the Tribulation? Daniel 9:27 says he signs a seven year treaty with Israel that is in effect for at least three and a half years before he breaks it. If anyone has a Bible and access to the internet, do you think they won't notice a seven-year peace treaty that Israeli signs with some charismatic world leader?

We are given an out because we are saved before judgement occurs. The Bible says, seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near. Do the examples of God removing his faithful in the Old Testament carry no weight at all? People act like this is some fevered fantasy dreamed up by Christians who are afraid to go through persecution for Christ, but the fact is that God has done this at least three times already, so why are some Christians finding it so hard to accept the idea now?

Mark 13:9-13 But be on your guard' for they will deliver you to the courts and you will be flogged in the synagogues and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake as a testimony to them. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. When they arrest you and hand you over do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak but it is the Holy Spirit. Brother will betray brother to death and a father his child and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name but the one who endures to the end will be saved.

This passage is prophesying for believers in the Tribulation.

I don't even know how this verse is even with the rapture verses. I think its totally misrepresented. It is John who has gone up to heaven so he could write down all these things for us...he isn't a type of the church and we somehow go with him. God wanted us to know what was going to happen and He brought John up to write to us...just like all the apostles wrote to the church about various things.

I said the verse is a picture of the rapture, not that we go up with John. Me explanation is there. You don't have to accept it, but seeing as it's a type that is clearly in scripture, I think the weight of evidence is on my view of that verse.

Isn't the last trump the 7th one, the one before all the bowl of wrath are poured out?

That is an argument used against the pre-trib rapture, certainly, but I have yet to see anyone prove that this trumpet is the last trumpet of the seven. This puts the Rapture right at the end of the Tribulation, so who is riding from Heaven with Jesus Christ when he returns? Why does the Bible say that the wrath of God precedes the seventh trumpet, if we aren't to go through any wrath at all? There are more questions about the interpretation of it as the seventh trumpet than the view that "last" in that verse means something else.

And yet we are mentioned at the 5th seal-martyrdom! If you read Revelation 4:1 and the messages to the churches, What the churches have in common is the message at the end of each one...to he who overcomes...and what will be given if they overcome. If we are taken out before the trib, what do we really need to overcome?

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

The Church is to overcome the world through faith in Jesus Christ. The Tribulation isn't mentioned. What makes you think it's the Church specifically that the fifth seal is speaking of?

Doesn't that just say that once all the gentiles are saved then God starts to work on His chosen people? We all have different roles in the end. Doesn't their portion begin after the anti is revealed...because until he is revealed they are still under the treaty?

Are you talking about the treaty the antichrist signs with Israel for seven years and then breaks halfway through?

The entire Tribulation is about Israel. The Church age is complete and then the 70th and final week of God's plan for Israel's redemption begins. It doesn't make sense that the Church would still be around, since the Church is always clearly distinct from Israel.

Luke 21.36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

For believers in the Tribulation, not for the Church.

 

[Thunderian]

Before we go any further, is there anyone who doesn't feel that the Church is a distinct body of believers? There is so much prophecy to go through, but if we aren't dividing scripture correctly -- who is speaking, who is being spoken to, what is being spoken of -- then we'll never reach any kind of consensus on how to interpret scripture, and we may as well give up now.

I see a lot of verses being quoted about believers going through the Tribulation, and I don't dispute that there will be believers going through that. But the Rapture is for the Church, clearly, and those who are saved during the Tribulation are not a part of the Church. Maybe we should take a giant step back and discuss the doctrine of the Church before anything else.

 

[colson]

Before we go any further, is there anyone who doesn't feel that the Church is a distinct body of believers? There is so much prophecy to go through, but if we aren't dividing scripture correctly -- who is speaking, who is being spoken to, what is being spoken of -- then we'll never reach any kind of consensus on how to interpret scripture, and we may as well give up now.

I see a lot of verses being quoted about believers going through the Tribulation, and I don't dispute that there will be believers going through that. But the Rapture is for the Church, clearly, and those who are saved during the Tribulation are not a part of the Church. Maybe we should take a giant step back and discuss the doctrine of the Church before anything else.

Distinct from whom?
DNA 'Israel' is in parallel to 'Christian Israel'. See Rev 7, the 144,000 are in conjunction with the 'great multitude' of Christians.
These are the 'elect' who are taken 'out of the great tribulation'.

So, because you capitalized 'Church', that must really Mean Something. If you only 'really' believe in Jesus, you will be (duh duh duuuh!!) Left Behind! But if you 'really, really, really' believe in Jesus, then you are part of the ... 'Church' with a capital 'C' and you will be whisked away.

You see how silly this is, right?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Before we go any further, is there anyone who doesn't feel that the Church is a distinct body of believers? There is so much prophecy to go through, but if we aren't dividing scripture correctly -- who is speaking, who is being spoken to, what is being spoken of -- then we'll never reach any kind of consensus on how to interpret scripture, and we may as well give up now.

I see a lot of verses being quoted about believers going through the Tribulation, and I don't dispute that there will be believers going through that. But the Rapture is for the Church, clearly, and those who are saved during the Tribulation are not a part of the Church. Maybe we should take a giant step back and discuss the doctrine of the Church before anything else.

You make an essential point here. In terms of logical progression, this whole topic comes under 'advanced' when it comes to Biblical interpretation. By that, I don't mean that people like Colson are simpletons, but the whole discussion hinges on your presuppositions.

Based on those presuppositions you will build towards your conclusions, rather like the idea that A is true, that helps explain B, which in turn makes C look most plausible. But what happens if you don't see eye to eye on B!!!

You can then have two Christians who want to follow the Lord being rather short tempered with one another just because they have different presuppositions on 'B' but are trying to talk about point 'C'.

So rather than go down that road, why not test those presuppositions before trying to tackle the conclusions without laying the groundwork? We might not reach a conclusion or a consensus view but it will be useful to understand WHY better and help understand each others perpectives even if we don't share them?

God bless

 

[Thunderian]

I'm not sure why some people who aren't pre-trib feel the need to be so condescending, Colson, unless they feel threatened in some way. Which doesn't make sense, because if you are wrong and are a believer, you get a nice rapture. If I'm wrong, I will probably die horribly.

All believers on earth today are part of the Church. I capitalize it to distinguish it from the local church, which could be made up of believers and unbelievers. If you are a believer, Colson, you are part of the Church, whether you believe in it or not, and you will be raptured with the rest of us.

The 144,000 are not part of the Church. They are from the 12 tribes of Israel and part of a different dispensation.

 

[Thunderian]

Based on those presuppositions you will build towards your conclusions, rather like the idea that A is true, that helps explain B, which in turn makes C look most plausible. But what happens if you don't see eye to eye on B!!!

True.

For instance, if someone believes that the Church has replaced Israel, there is a lot of prophecy they have to read with their eyes half closed. That's why all other rapture views depend on spiritualizing scripture. I have yet to see a clear case made for post-trib, mid-trib, post-mid pre-wrath, or any other view of the rapture that doesn't rely on making at least a couple of verses spiritual instead of literal, and there is never a clear case made for why the interpretation method is inconsistent from one verse to the next.

 

[Thunderian]

Distinct from whom?

I want to add more, just so we're clear.

The Church is distinct from believers of any other age, including ages to come.

Paul writes in Ephesians 2:

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved),
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The Church is the only body of believers that is said to be in Christ. We are the only ones who are saved by grace alone and not by works as well.

Are the Old Testament saints in Christ? How, when Jesus Christ hadn't died yet? Are they part of the Church? How, when the Church was not an institution until after Christ's resurrection and ascension?

If we are all in Christ, and all part of the Church, what was the point of Old Testament sacrifices? Why aren't we doing those now?

 

[DisenfranchisedDespot]

Are you in line with the teachings of the deceased Ruckman?

I believe he had one of the closest interpretations of revelation.

 

[Thunderian]

Are you in line with the teachings of the deceased Ruckman?

I believe he had one of the closest interpretations of revelation.

I have learned a lot from Ruckman, and from a student of his, David Peacock.

Ruckman's style was blunt to the extreme, and offensive to many, but so was Christ's, so I can't say much about that. I check everything Ruckman says against scripture, and I don't agree with him carte blanche by any means, but man alive, he pulls some things from scripture that can knock you out sometimes. Peacock is the same way, with a bit more gentle of a manner, and if you like Ruckman's content, I recommend Peacock's sermons at Sermon Audio.

 

[Lady]

Now this is a thread I can sink my teeth into!
I have so many different teachings of the rapture going on in my head that I need some clarity.

 

[Thunderian]

Jewish Betrothal Customs and the Relationship Between Jesus Christ and the Church

At the time Jesus Christ was on earth, a Jewish man who was ready to marry would leave his home to find a bride. This process was traditionally initiated by the father of the bridegroom, but the choice of bride was the final decision of the young man.

After the young man had made his case to the young woman of his choice, it was her decision whether or not to accept. Once she accepted, the bride and groom were required to go through ceremonial washing as a symbol of their purity and and the sanctity of their relationship to each other.

A bride price would be negotiated between the bride's father and the bridegroom, and even though this was paid to the father of the bride, it became part of the bride's dowry and was hers when the marriage was formalized. This was to provide security for the bride no matter what happened.

The marriage covenant would then be signed, and the couple were considered married, even though the ceremony had not yet taken place. The covenant traditionally could only be broken by infidelity on the part of the bridegroom. Again, this was for the bride's sake. Once the covenant was signed, the bride and groom would share a glass of wine over which a blessing on their marriage had been pronounced.

At this point, the bridegroom would leave his intended bride for a period of time that was set by and known only to his father. Before he left, the bridegroom would give his bride a token of his love and his pledge to return for her. They would not see each other until the bridegroom came back to get her for the ceremony.

The bridegroom would return to his father's house to build a home for his bride, and the bride would live at her home while she made her wedding garment. When the bridegroom's father decided it was time, and that the bride's home was ready, he told the bridegroom that it was time to go get his bride.

The bride was given notice by the bridegroom's servants that the groom was coming soon, but not exactly when, and it was up to her be ready to go at any time. Finally, with a shout to alert his bride, the bridegroom would come to her home, collect her and bring her to her new home for the marriage ceremony. The wedding celebration lasted seven days.

Some of you may see the parallels these customs have to Jesus Christ and his bride, the Church.

Jesus Christ chose us for his bride.

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He began his ministry by being baptized, and likewise, we as the Church are symbolically washed through baptism, but also through the word of God.

Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jesus paid a price for us.

1 Corinthians 6:20 - For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The price that was set by the Father was Christ's own life.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It's up to us if we want to accept the bridegroom's proposal, but if we accept, the price that Christ paid for us becomes the foundation of our inheritance.

1 Peter 1:4 - To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Jesus said that he was going to make a home for us.

John 14:
2 ... I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus returned to Heaven, he promised the Holy Spirit as a pledge of his return.

Ephesians 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus told us that his Father had determined when he would return.

Matthew 24:36 - But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Meanwhile, the bride is making herself ready.

Revelation 19:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

And then the bridegroom comes.

1 Thessalonians 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Maranatha, y'all.