Catholicism 101

[Toulouse]

That's really hard to believe.

Jack Chick produced a lot of tracks to pass out to people to "evangelize." He basically doesn't state what he believes, but does a great job of bashing the Church through hyperbole and fiction.

 

[Toulouse]

Toulouse, he is NOT a great pope. The reports I get from South America is THAT at the very least he has a very serious drinking problem-- as many in the clergy do.

My argument is with the the title of the film. Pope = Satan!!! Very cliché.

 

[free2018]

My argument is with the the title of the film. Pope = Satan!!! Very cliché.

I hear you. It seems very anti-papist, but there are many moves by Francis that rightly anger people.
Here's an example among many:
"Pope Francis declined to accept the resignation of a French cardinal convicted of covering up sexual abuse, the Vatican said on Tuesday, a decision that drew fire from victims and their advocates in France and abroad."

Pope Refuses Resignation of Cardinal Convicted of Covering Up Sex Abuse

Pope Francis has declined to accept the resignation of a French cardinal convicted of covering up sex abuse, a decision likely to draw fire from sex abuse victims and their advocates in France and abroad.

www.wsj.com

PS. I just see him as a bad drunk and that's why I have no personal animosity towards him.

 

[Toulouse]

Catholicism is just another lie by the father of lies. Another deception to keep people away from God, the true God. That’s why I come against catholicism so hard, its a false gospel and doesn’t bring people to God but keeps them away from Him..using man’s traditions to bring religion into peoples lives, using the name of Jesus to get man’s attention but keeping him in myths that don’t help but hinder man’s progress to see God.

You can say that stuff is worse..but is it, when they all work against man knowing His creator? And, I have no doubt that there will be no way to fight against our neighbor and his husband the family dog...Jesus says that the world will get worse..so bad even that it will be the worst time anyone has ever seen, we can’t stop this by coming together, we can only save ourselves by believing in Jesus and not perish but have everlasting life.

Could you explain where the notion of "false gospel" comes from, and by what authority (please don't say the Bible) this person has to claim someone is using a "false gospel?" Then can you explain what "false gospel" really means? Next, can you explain how/why you are qualified to claim someone's beliefs are authentic? Can you do these things without a mini-Bible study? Just, you know, in your own words...

 

[Toulouse]

I hear you. It seems very anti-papist, but there are many moves by Francis that rightly anger people.
Here's an example among many:
"Pope Francis declined to accept the resignation of a French cardinal convicted of covering up sexual abuse, the Vatican said on Tuesday, a decision that drew fire from victims and their advocates in France and abroad."

Pope Refuses Resignation of Cardinal Convicted of Covering Up Sex Abuse

Pope Francis has declined to accept the resignation of a French cardinal convicted of covering up sex abuse, a decision likely to draw fire from sex abuse victims and their advocates in France and abroad.

www.wsj.com

PS. I just see him as a bad drunk and that's why I have no personal animosity towards him.

Just be careful of your sources. I didn't hear his say that, but I don't follow him that closely.

 

[Toulouse]

...I didn't hear HIM (sorry, it's late and I can't sleep)...

 

[Toulouse]

It wasn't until I started looking into (and struggling with) the issues of Mary and the Saints for myself that I realized that there's a lot of bad teaching, untruth and misrepresentation in the Protestant community (which is why I can't be one). The bottom line for me is that we have the Eucharist and the Real Presence. (I know I wasn't getting that in the churches I previously attended.) Some of these arguments are important, but they aren't the "game-ender" like the Eucharist. (Either your church has it or they don't..... and if you don't, then why would I bother or waste my time?)

I'm finding that fundamentalists do the same thing that they accuse Catholics of - developing ideas (doctrines) not in the Bible.

The Eucharist. It's right there in John 6, but they gloss over it and don't really understand what we do at the Mass. We don't re-kill Jesus at every Mass. Rather, we relive the same sacrifice, we are transported back to Calvary.

They don't know of the hundreds of miracles that have been tested by Catholics, atheists, non-Catholics. The results are identical: all the same blood type, from a male from the Middle East, from the heart, from a heart that has been in great distress.

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been meticulously studied by, again, atheists and non-Catholics, and the material that makes up the image can not be found on the earth!!! You can't make this stuff up. The studies have been replicated and to say they are bogus and part of a "false gospel" defies logic. Science is on our side.

 

[Lisa]

Could you explain where the notion of "false gospel" comes from, and by what authority (please don't say the Bible) this person has to claim someone is using a "false gospel?" Then can you explain what "false gospel" really means? Next, can you explain how/why you are qualified to claim someone's beliefs are authentic? Can you do these things without a mini-Bible study? Just, you know, in your own words...

Why don’t you want me to say the Bible? That’s where God’s truth comes from.

Galatians‬ ‭1:6-9‬ ‭
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!​

‭‭
Paul is the authority I am quoting here..

Galatians‬ ‭1:11-12‬ ‭
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.​

How am I qualified? Well..I read the Bible and the Bible tells me to watch out for false teachers and false prophets that will try to deceive me. So I must stay in the word of God and make sure everything I hear matches up with God’s word.

I made this thread about God’s word the other day..

The Bible is the plumb line

‭‭ The Bible is the plum line plumb line noun [ C ] UK /ˈplʌm ˌlaɪn/ US /ˈplʌm ˌlaɪn/ a piece of string with a weight attached to one end, used either to test if something vertical, such as a wall, is exactly straight, or to find the depth of water A plumb line, also called a plummet, is a...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

‭‭

 

[Lisa]

We don't re-kill Jesus at every Mass. Rather, we relive the same sacrifice, we are transported back to Calvary.

Do you think the priest has turned the wine into Jesus actual blood and the wager into His actual flesh and that you are eating His actual flesh and drinking His actual blood? Because you know that it was a metaphor..right?

They don't know of the hundreds of miracles that have been tested by Catholics, atheists, non-Catholics. The results are identical: all the same blood type, from a male from the Middle East, from the heart, from a heart that has been in great distress.

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been meticulously studied by, again, atheists and non-Catholics, and the material that makes up the image can not be found on the earth!!! You can't make this stuff up. The studies have been replicated and to say they are bogus and part of a "false gospel" defies logic. Science is on our side.

​

Matthew‬ ‭24:24‬ ‭
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.​

‭‭

 

[Toulouse]

Do you think the priest has turned the wine into Jesus actual blood and the wager into His actual flesh and that you are eating His actual flesh and drinking His actual blood? Because you know that it was a metaphor..right?

Matthew‬ ‭24:24‬ ‭
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.​

‭‭

Lisa, respectfully, I admire your passion and fervor to witness to the Gospel, and I respect you as a fellow human being. However, you really do not know what you're talking about when it comes to the Catholic Church. Also, your fundamentalist, sola scriptura, "my authority comes from the Bible " approach is wrought with contradiction. Why do you have authority to interpret Sacred Scripture and go against the teachings of the those people who were taught by the Apostles - the Church Fathers, and latter supported by the greatest minds in Christianity - St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and G.K. Chesterton to name a few? Really, Lisa? Why? Where does that authority come from? That seems a little arrogant to me. Especially when it was those people who put together the very "book" that you use to condemn them. There is a disconnect here.

Just because you say that Catholics worship Mary doesn't make it so. You're not Catholic. Your interpretation of the Eucharist and what happens at Mass has no foundation. Again, you don't really know what your talking about. You must base your beliefs on what you have heard and not personal experience, which is so very typical of Fundamentalists. Cutting and pasting scripture is rather futile and I suspect most people don't read all the verses. Sorry.

Again, respectfully, your approach to Christianity lacks any kind of soul, and it has been stripped bare so you can't see anything beyond the written word. The real Word is Jesus, the Living Word. You believe that by throwing out passages that you're evangelizing, you're not. You're having the opposite affect, but sadly you don't see it. That gives me pain...so much wasted energy.

You don't answer my questions, so I will not answer yours. I asked you where the concept of "false gospel" came from - that phrase - where did it come from? Where did the concept of "only the Bible" come from? You see, if you answer these, truthfully, then you fall into the same "heresy" that you aim at Catholics, so you avoid it. We can't have that now, can we? The answer is that someone just made it up. At least everything we in the Catholic Church do is based on Scripture. For instance, the pope doesn't wake up and say, "I'm infallible, what I say goes. Red is Green, Green is Yellow." The last time the pope spoke infallibly was 1950. This is done after much prayer and consideration and consultation. This gift is based on Scripture that I shared in the original post, which you obviously didn't read, so I will not bother to rewrite it.

Anyway, I mean no disrespect to who you are as a human being. But you are very wrong about your assessment of the Catholic Church, and you are a little sanctimonious.

Again, take up my challenge, Lisa. I suspect that you, and other of your ilk, will not because you are really afraid that all of your assumptions will be wiped clean, and you could not handle that. You have too much invested and too much pride to admit that sola scriptura is an empty dogma. Oh, and if you claim that you have no dogma, that's your dogma.

How can science be a false sign and wonder? Is electricity a false sign and wonder? That machine your typing on that can store information, is that a false sign and wonder? Science does not lie. Scientific studies have proven miracles, Catholic miracles, you can't get around this. But if your belief system is based on the written word only, then you miss out on all of the "wonderful" things God is doing. Have there been false miracles? Yes, of course, and they've discovered and discarded.

Here's a challenge, spend one year and study, truly study the Catholic Church and its teachings, hang out with Catholics, go to RCIA classes near you and really learn about the Catholic Church. Go to Mass every day. After that, unless you are afraid, then we'll "talk" because then you would have some real exposure to our teachings, not just what some disaffected, wounded, rebellious teenager said, who went to seminary and claims to be a preacher and passes along misinformation.

Again, I respect your humanity. We are fellow believers, despite what you say. We follow the same Bible. Your personal interpretation does not stand up to two-thousand years of the greatest minds in Christianity. Be blessed. Jesus loves you and so do I.

 

[Lisa]

Again, take up my challenge, Lisa. I suspect that you, and other of your ilk,

Then you say..

Again, I respect your humanity.

That’s quite the disconnect there Toulouse


Hmm...that’s a lot said not said. You think I didn’t answer your questions so you won’t answer mine? I did answer your questions, but I think the problem is you didn’t like my answers.

Sola scriptura is the only way really. You say the church brought together scripture and I will counter that by saying the God who created heaven and earth and inspired the scriptures brought the Bible together. God wants us to know Him and His Good News...doesn’t make sense that He would leave it up to a false religion to do that when as the maker of everything He easily can make sure His word endured throughout the centuries.

Why do you have authority to interpret Sacred Scripture and go against the teachings of the those people who were taught by the Apostles -

Really, Lisa? Why? Where does that authority come from? That seems a little arrogant to me.

I don’t need to have people tell me what scripture says..after all I can read the Bible for myself and pray that God helps me to understand it and go from there. Anyone can ask that of God. He’s not trying to keep the Bible a secret that only some can understand..that’s the fallacy.

Just because you say that Catholics worship Mary doesn't make it so. You're not Catholic. Your interpretation of the Eucharist and what happens at Mass has no foundation. Again, you don't really know what your talking about. You must base your beliefs on what you have heard and not personal experience, which is so very typical of Fundamentalists. Cutting and pasting scripture is rather futile and I suspect most people don't read all the verses. Sorry.

Somehow catholics can’t see how much they worship Mary above even the Father and Son..but it is very clear to those of us who are looking in. Does Jesus say anywhere in scripture that we should pray to Mary? No, but He does talk about praying to the Father. Do any of the disciples talk about praying to Mary or treat her as part of the Godhood because she was Jesus’ mom? Again no. Does Jesus include His mom at all in anything He’s ever said in scripture? No, it’s the Father and I are one and He talks about sending the Holy Spirit when He’s gone. But He’s never seen talking about His mother in that way and neither than should catholics.

I think you’re afraid to answer my pointed questions because you know that I am right. Again..do catholics think that priests can turn a wafer and wine into the actual blood and flesh of Jesus and do catholics then think they really are eating the actual blood and flesh of Jesus? If so...wouldn’t that make you people sick cannibals? Using scripture to say that’s true when if it were actually literal and not metaphorical..Jesus disciples would have cut Him up in little pieces and ate His flesh and drank His blood..but that isn’t what happened is it? No, it’s metaphorical..people can’t live without eating or drinking and Jesus says in that way you also can’t live without Him...makes more sense then perverted catholic teaching.

You don't answer my questions, so I will not answer yours. I asked you where the concept of "false gospel" came from - that phrase - where did it come from? Where did the concept of "only the Bible" come from? You see, if you answer these, truthfully, then you fall into the same "heresy" that you aim at Catholics, so you avoid it. We can't have that now, can we? The answer is that someone just made it up. At least everything we in the Catholic Church do is based on Scripture. For instance, the pope doesn't wake up and say, "I'm infallible, what I say goes. Red is Green, Green is Yellow." The last time the pope spoke infallibly was 1950. This is done after much prayer and consideration and consultation. This gift is based on Scripture that I shared in the original post, which you obviously didn't read, so I will not bother to rewrite it.

Do you think the pope has all the answers? And why would you want a man who wears a dress as head of your church? It’s 2020, can’t the guy wear pants already? You have to admit that’s a little bizarre...he and his priests. And why would the church say it’s descendant from Peter when Peter was married and the church doesn’t allow its priests to be married..seems a little twisted there.

At least everything we in the Catholic Church do is based on Scripture.

It truly is not based on scripture..but man made traditions.

But you are very wrong about your assessment of the Catholic Church,

No I’m not and you know it which is why you can’t really counter anything I’m saying..just personal attacks and talking down to me. It’s unfortunate that you won’t honestly answer the questions that I bring up but then I suspect that if you actually did you would see what I’m talking about.

Here's a challenge, spend one year and study, truly study the Catholic Church and its teachings, hang out with Catholics, go to RCIA classes near you and really learn about the Catholic Church. Go to Mass every day. After that, unless you are afraid, then we'll "talk" because then you would have some real exposure to our teachings, not just what some disaffected, wounded, rebellious teenager said, who went to seminary and claims to be a preacher and passes along misinformation.

Lol! Most of my relatives are catholics. My mom is a catholic who didn’t go to church after it was too hard bringing young kids there and I don’t know if my dad liked it..but she ate fish on Friday’s..

I was thinking about being a catholic when living with my Aunt and Uncle and went to mass..got the ashes on Ash Wednesday, and watched my aunt and uncle cross themselves with the holy water as we entered church and basically listened to mass that didn’t have anything going for it with the priests talking and the audience being told how to repsond. Then I was taken to a Protestant church and ya it kind of freaked me out a little to see their services but ya know..they preached from the word. Talked about the word and when they prayed it was from the heart not from rote. It was a whole new world for me. God’s word is alive but the traditions of the catholics kill it.

Again, I respect your humanity. We are fellow believers, despite what you say. We follow the same Bible. Your personal interpretation does not stand up to two-thousand years of the greatest minds in Christianity. Be blessed. Jesus loves you and so do I.

It’s not just my personal interpretation and you know it. There wouldn’t have been that schism if there weren’t something to it. And there is something to it. Show me where in the Bible that the disciples say to pray to Mary and they did it. Show me where in the Bible Jesus said to pray to His mom and He did it. You can’t because it’s not there. Why then would you think the greatest minds saying that it was ok to do it are right? They can’t be can they if no one in the Bible prayed to her....not even her Son.

How can those teachers be right when they say to eat the actual flesh and drink the actual blood of Jesus when the disciples didn’t do that? Did Jesus create priests who could turn the wafer and wine in the Bible? Is that what He did at the last supper? And is that what the disciples did? No, none of that happened so why then would you think it was true and right to do that...because some men said that’s what it was about? They are wrong. You are following man made traditions instead of what the Bible actually teaches and I suspect your inability to deal honestly with it is fear. You’re an older person and you are scared to find out you’ve been duped nearly your whole life. It’s ok, come out of the darkness into the light...that’s really all that counts.

 

[Toulouse]

Then you say..

That’s quite the disconnect there Toulouse


Hmm...that’s a lot said not said. You think I didn’t answer your questions so you won’t answer mine? I did answer your questions, but I think the problem is you didn’t like my answers.

Sola scriptura is the only way really. You say the church brought together scripture and I will counter that by saying the God who created heaven and earth and inspired the scriptures brought the Bible together. God wants us to know Him and His Good News...doesn’t make sense that He would leave it up to a false religion to do that when as the maker of everything He easily can make sure His word endured throughout the centuries.




I don’t need to have people tell me what scripture says..after all I can read the Bible for myself and pray that God helps me to understand it and go from there. Anyone can ask that of God. He’s not trying to keep the Bible a secret that only some can understand..that’s the fallacy.



Somehow catholics can’t see how much they worship Mary above even the Father and Son..but it is very clear to those of us who are looking in. Does Jesus say anywhere in scripture that we should pray to Mary? No, but He does talk about praying to the Father. Do any of the disciples talk about praying to Mary or treat her as part of the Godhood because she was Jesus’ mom? Again no. Does Jesus include His mom at all in anything He’s ever said in scripture? No, it’s the Father and I are one and He talks about sending the Holy Spirit when He’s gone. But He’s never seen talking about His mother in that way and neither than should catholics.

I think you’re afraid to answer my pointed questions because you know that I am right. Again..do catholics think that priests can turn a wafer and wine into the actual blood and flesh of Jesus and do catholics then think they really are eating the actual blood and flesh of Jesus? If so...wouldn’t that make you people sick cannibals? Using scripture to say that’s true when if it were actually literal and not metaphorical..Jesus disciples would have cut Him up in little pieces and ate His flesh and drank His blood..but that isn’t what happened is it? No, it’s metaphorical..people can’t live without eating or drinking and Jesus says in that way you also can’t live without Him...makes more sense then perverted catholic teaching.



Do you think the pope has all the answers? And why would you want a man who wears a dress as head of your church? It’s 2020, can’t the guy wear pants already? You have to admit that’s a little bizarre...he and his priests. And why would the church say it’s descendant from Peter when Peter was married and the church doesn’t allow its priests to be married..seems a little twisted there.



It truly is not based on scripture..but man made traditions.



No I’m not and you know it which is why you can’t really counter anything I’m saying..just personal attacks and talking down to me. It’s unfortunate that you won’t honestly answer the questions that I bring up but then I suspect that if you actually did you would see what I’m talking about.


Lol! Most of my relatives are catholics. My mom is a catholic who didn’t go to church after it was too hard bringing young kids there and I don’t know if my dad liked it..but she ate fish on Friday’s..

I was thinking about being a catholic when living with my Aunt and Uncle and went to mass..got the ashes on Ash Wednesday, and watched my aunt and uncle cross themselves with the holy water as we entered church and basically listened to mass that didn’t have anything going for it with the priests talking and the audience being told how to repsond. Then I was taken to a Protestant church and ya it kind of freaked me out a little to see their services but ya know..they preached from the word. Talked about the word and when they prayed it was from the heart not from rote. It was a whole new world for me. God’s word is alive but the traditions of the catholics kill it.



It’s not just my personal interpretation and you know it. There wouldn’t have been that schism if there weren’t something to it. And there is something to it. Show me where in the Bible that the disciples say to pray to Mary and they did it. Show me where in the Bible Jesus said to pray to His mom and He did it. You can’t because it’s not there. Why then would you think the greatest minds saying that it was ok to do it are right? They can’t be can they if no one in the Bible prayed to her....not even her Son.

How can those teachers be right when they say to eat the actual flesh and drink the actual blood of Jesus when the disciples didn’t do that? Did Jesus create priests who could turn the wafer and wine in the Bible? Is that what He did at the last supper? And is that what the disciples did? No, none of that happened so why then would you think it was true and right to do that...because some men said that’s what it was about? They are wrong. You are following man made traditions instead of what the Bible actually teaches and I suspect your inability to deal honestly with it is fear. You’re an older person and you are scared to find out you’ve been duped nearly your whole life. It’s ok, come out of the darkness into the light...that’s really all that counts.

All things aside, truly, if you believe that I insulted you in any way, then I ask your forgiveness, it was not my intention. Please forgive me.

Sitting in church with your grandparents does not qualify you as an expert on Catholicism.

Again, about the body and blood of Christ...it's in John 6. The eat from the Greek, the original translation meant to chew or gnaw. That's pretty explicit, and it's not the people/priests is the Holy Spirit.

Again, forgive me for a lapse in kindness. But you must dig deeper because all of what you write here is not based on any real understanding, I can only assume hearsay.

Again, where does "false gospel" and sola scriptura come from? A human creation?

 

[Lisa]

All things aside, truly, if you believe that I insulted you in any way, then I ask your forgiveness, it was not my intention. Please forgive me.

I don’t think it ever works out to disparage someone’s character and then try to tell them no offense. I can forgive you but I will know that you don’t think much of me anyway, no matter what you say.

Sitting in church with your grandparents does not qualify you as an expert on Catholicism.

Never went to church with my grandparents, it was my Aunt and Uncle and if I would have stayed with them..I would have started classes with their priest. My whole family being catholics is no good either? But you told me “hang out with Catholics”.

The problem really is when you try to line up catholic teachings and traditions with the word of God, the Bible..it doesn’t line up..so no amount of immersion is going to explain that. One must decide really, if they are on God’s side..or the worlds.

Again, about the body and blood of Christ...it's in John 6. The eat from the Greek, the original translation meant to chew or gnaw. That's pretty explicit, and it's not the people/priests is the Holy Spirit.

Could it mean to chew on it..like think about it? Which, I do have a big point that you refuse to think about or comment on because in the end you have no idea how to argue against what I said except to deflect.

Again, forgive me for a lapse in kindness. But you must dig deeper because all of what you write here is not based on any real understanding, I can only assume hearsay.

I have dug deeper...I used to think that catholicism was part of Christianity to some extent...but when I looked up the traditions with what the Bible talks about...there is no comparison...it is a false gospel and doesn’t bring people closer to God or salvation but deceives them into thinking they are ok with God when they are still sinners in need of a savior...its really insidiously evil that way. That they keep people because whole families believe their lies about the Bible...who wants to leave when your mom and dad and brothers and sisters are baptized at birth into a lie? How can a baby choose Jesus, or repent of sins, let alone choose to be baptized for God? Never read that infants were baptized by John the Baptist...anyway..

Again, where does "false gospel" and sola scriptura come from? A human creation?

Why do you distrust the Bible so much?

 

[phipps]

It wasn't until I started looking into (and struggling with) the issues of Mary and the Saints for myself that I realized that there's a lot of bad teaching, untruth and misrepresentation in the Protestant community (which is why I can't be one). The bottom line for me is that we have the Eucharist and the Real Presence. (I know I wasn't getting that in the churches I previously attended.) Some of these arguments are important, but they aren't the "game-ender" like the Eucharist. (Either your church has it or they don't..... and if you don't, then why would I bother or waste my time?)

I'm finding that fundamentalists do the same thing that they accuse Catholics of - developing ideas (doctrines) not in the Bible.

The Eucharist. It's right there in John 6, but they gloss over it and don't really understand what we do at the Mass. We don't re-kill Jesus at every Mass. Rather, we relive the same sacrifice, we are transported back to Calvary.

They don't know of the hundreds of miracles that have been tested by Catholics, atheists, non-Catholics. The results are identical: all the same blood type, from a male from the Middle East, from the heart, from a heart that has been in great distress.

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been meticulously studied by, again, atheists and non-Catholics, and the material that makes up the image can not be found on the earth!!! You can't make this stuff up. The studies have been replicated and to say they are bogus and part of a "false gospel" defies logic. Science is on our side.

Maybe there is bad teaching about Catholicism but there is also good teaching. It is true that a lot of Catholicism is based on paganism and not completely on the Word of God. This is a fact that can't be debated.

I'm finding that fundamentalists do the same thing that they accuse Catholics of - developing ideas (doctrines) not in the Bible.

Yes many Protestant Churches have doctrines not based in the Bible. They are just as wrong as the Catholics. Wrong is wrong no matter which side of the coin they are on.

Some of these arguments are important, but they aren't the "game-ender" like the Eucharist. (Either your church has it or they don't..... and if you don't, then why would I bother or waste my time?)

If any Church that professes to be Christian has the Eucharist, they are going against the Word of God.

The Eucharist is not biblical. As I posted before its the killing of Christ over and over again which is wrong according to His word. The Catholic Eucharist is the symbol of a defeated Christ. Christ can never be defeated. He is God. The Bible is clear Jesus died once and for all and the Bible does not contradict itself.

The Eucharist. It's right there in John 6, but they gloss over it and don't really understand what we do at the Mass.

There is no Eucharist in John 6. The Bible says in John 6:32-40, "Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The bread Jesus is talking about is not His literal body. He says, "the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” Meaning He is the bread. In the Bible the word "bread" was used to mean all food. We cannot live without eating food. So Jesus meant He is essential for life as well. We need Him as much as we need food. Hence He said, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." This goes hand in hand with His response to Satan's temptation of turning stones into bread. Jesus said in Matthew 4:4, "It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” Jesus meant that prayer and meditating on God’s Word is just as essential to living as food is for our physical needs.

We don't re-kill Jesus at every Mass. Rather, we relive the same sacrifice, we are transported back to Calvary.

This is not true. Don't you not know what your religion believes about the Eucharist? In the thirteenth century Pope Innocent III decreed the doctrine of transubstantiation. This doctrine states that the priest can perform the miracle of changing the wafer into the body of Jesus Christ so every Catholic can receive communion. Then later the adoration of the wafer was sanctioned.

Here are some actual words of the Catholic church in regards to this.

"If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist (communion wafer) are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema." (An exhausted definition of "Anathema" = To be damned and put to death) Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Original text with English translation, by Rev. H.J. Schroeder, O.P., B. Herder Book Co. 1960, p.79, Canon 1.

"...we find in obedience to the words of his priests - Hoc est Corpus Meum - God Himself descends on the altar, that he comes whenever they call Him; and as often as they call Him, and places Himself in their hands, even though they should be His enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move Him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle, expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat His flesh, and give Him for the food of others. ;Oh how great is their power!" -The Dignity of the priesthood by Liguori p. 26,27

"...the power of the priest is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world. ...thus the priest may be called the creator of the Creator..." -The dignity of the priesthood, p. 33

Has this changed within Catholicism? Has the Catholic Church rejected these beliefs? The priests are set higher than Christ Himself and He is God. That is blasphemy.

They don't know of the hundreds of miracles that have been tested by Catholics, atheists, non-Catholics. The results are identical: all the same blood type, from a male from the Middle East, from the heart, from a heart that has been in great distress.

Its not Jesus' blood. Its someone's blood but it can't be Jesus' blood since He sacrificed himself once and for all. His blood cannot be spilled over and over again. Either you believe God and His Word or you don't. There is no middle ground.

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been meticulously studied by, again, atheists and non-Catholics, and the material that makes up the image can not be found on the earth!!! You can't make this stuff up. The studies have been replicated and to say they are bogus and part of a "false gospel" defies logic. Science is on our side.

The lady of Guadalupe is Mary and idol worship. Its not biblical. We are only supposed to worship God. The first and second (which is not in the Catholic Catechism) commandments are clear on that.

Exodus 20:2-3, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “You shall have no other gods before Me."

Exodus 20:4-6, “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

 

[Lisa]

Yes many Protestant Churches have doctrines not based in the Bible.

What churches and what doctrines?

 

[Toulouse]

Maybe there is bad teaching about Catholicism but there is also good teaching. It is true that a lot of Catholicism is based on paganism and not completely on the Word of God. This is a fact that can't be debated.



Yes many Protestant Churches have doctrines not based in the Bible. They are just as wrong as the Catholics. Wrong is wrong no matter which side of the coin they are on.



If any Church that professes to be Christian has the Eucharist, they are going against the Word of God.

The Eucharist is not biblical. As I posted before its the killing of Christ over and over again which is wrong according to His word. The Catholic Eucharist is the symbol of a defeated Christ. Christ can never be defeated. He is God. The Bible is clear Jesus died once and for all and the Bible does not contradict itself.



There is no Eucharist in John 6. The Bible says in John 6:32-40, "Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The bread Jesus is talking about is not His literal body. He says, "the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” Meaning He is the bread. In the Bible the word "bread" was used to mean all food. We cannot live without eating food. So Jesus meant He is essential for life as well. We need Him as much as we need food. Hence He said, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." This goes hand in hand with His response to Satan's temptation of turning stones into bread. Jesus said in Matthew 4:4, "It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” Jesus meant that prayer and meditating on God’s Word is just as essential to living as food is for our physical needs.



This is not true. Don't you not know what your religion believes about the Eucharist? In the thirteenth century Pope Innocent III decreed the doctrine of transubstantiation. This doctrine states that the priest can perform the miracle of changing the wafer into the body of Jesus Christ so every Catholic can receive communion. Then later the adoration of the wafer was sanctioned.

Here are some actual words of the Catholic church in regards to this.

"If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist (communion wafer) are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema." (An exhausted definition of "Anathema" = To be damned and put to death) Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Original text with English translation, by Rev. H.J. Schroeder, O.P., B. Herder Book Co. 1960, p.79, Canon 1.

"...we find in obedience to the words of his priests - Hoc est Corpus Meum - God Himself descends on the altar, that he comes whenever they call Him; and as often as they call Him, and places Himself in their hands, even though they should be His enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move Him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle, expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat His flesh, and give Him for the food of others. ;Oh how great is their power!" -The Dignity of the priesthood by Liguori p. 26,27

"...the power of the priest is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world. ...thus the priest may be called the creator of the Creator..." -The dignity of the priesthood, p. 33

Had this changed within Catholicism? Has the Catholic Church rejected these beliefs? The priests are set higher than Christ Himself and He is God. That is blasphemy.



Its not Jesus' blood. Its someone's blood but it can't be Jesus' blood since He sacrificed himself once and for all. His blood cannot be spilled over and over again. Either you believe God and is Word or you don't. There is no middle ground.



The lady of Guadalupe is Mary and idol worship. Its not biblical. We are only supposed to worship God. The first and second (which is not in the Catholic Catechism) commandments are clear on that.

Exodus 20:2-3, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “You shall have no other gods before Me."

Exodus 20:4-6, “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

Pagan? Please give examples.
Killing Jesus over and over. You're misguided on your Catholic theology.

 

[phipps]

Pagan? Please give examples.
Killing Jesus over and over. You're misguided on your Catholic theology.

I am not misguided about the Eucharist and neither is Catholic literature up to Vatican 2 council. Read your own literature and compare it with the Word of God and you will see it is not Christian theology and it does not stem from the Bible. Who do you want to follow, God or the Catholic Church? Because those are two different things let me assure you.

I have a forum on the subject of Catholicism and Paganism. Its called Paganism and Catholicism. I have many examples.

I posted about Sunday worship mainly in my Sabbath forum. Catholics admit they are the ones who changed the day from the true Sabbath day to Sunday which was a pagan worship day. the emperor Constantine changed the day of worship and he said, "On the venerable Day of the sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits: because it often happens that another Day is not so suitable for grain sowing or for vine planting: lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost." ii. Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church Volume 3 (Edinburgh: 1884): 380, note.

Sunday was a day dedicated to the sun and its worship. Its has never been the Sabbath and never will be. The true Sabbath of God will always be Friday evening to Saturday evening. Its a not Jewish day either, it was instituted at creation (Genesis 2:1-3). While Jesus was on earth He observed the Sabbath as did the apostles. Its part of the ten commandments and the Bible tells us Jesus did not sin which means He did not break the law. "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15). We have to obey God's commandments according to His Word not according to human tradition which is what the ten commandments of the Catholic Church are.

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957): 50:
Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why Do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
Nobody but God can transfer the solemnity of the Sabbath to another day and He never would. "For I am the Lord, I do not change"(Malachi 3:6) God's law will never change and Jesus made it clear that He never came to change the law but to fulfil it. "Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets, I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17).

Stephen Keenan, Catholic—Doctrinal Catechism 3rd Edition: 174:
Question: Have you any other way of proving the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her, she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the 1st day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the 7th day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. As quoted in God's Answers to Your Questions (Review and Herald Publishing, 1989): 50.

Sadly most of protestantism follows this false Sabbath too and many other Catholic traditions.

Chancellor Albert Smith for Cardinal of Baltimore Archdiocese, letter dated February 10, 1920:
"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath day by God is Saturday. In keeping the Sunday, they are following a law of the Catholic Church."

Our Sunday Visitor (February 5, 1950):
"Practically everything Protestants regard as essential or important they have received from the Catholic Church... The Protestant mind does not seem to realize that in accepting the Bible and observing the Sunday, in keeping Christmas and Easter, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope." I agree that any protestants who keep Catholic traditions are accepting the authority of the Catholic Church.

There are more traditions in Catholicism that don't stem from Christianity. I posted on some of them in my forum. Infant baptism, purgatory, the priesthood, celibacy, Mother -Son worship, Mary worship, the mass, transubstantiation, the rosary and repetitive prayer, the title of the pope, Pontifex Maximus etc. All these traditions stem from paganism. Catholicism also has a lot of sun worship symbols that come directly from paganism too. That is no coincidence. None of all these things are from the Word of God at all. Very little of Catholicism is actually Christian at all I'm sorry to say.

 

[phipps]

Can a Church Declare You a Saint?

To some observers, it might seem like the equivalent of the gold watch traditionally presented to retiring corporate employees: Pope Francis has recently confirmed that one of his predecessors, the late Pope Paul VI, who died in 1978, will be formally recognized as a saint of the Roman Catholic Church sometime in 2018.

Such designations are generally given to those to whom two miracles—for instance, verified medical cures for which there is no physical explanation—can be attributed. Catholic faithful believe such "saints" are already in heaven, interceding with God for the requests of believers on Earth.

Most of the twentieth century predecessors of Francis have been canonized. Speaking with a group of priests in Rome during a private meeting, Francis jokingly said that he and his immediate predecessor, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, now "are on the waiting list" for sainthood.

While it's certainly the privilege of any religious group to have its own ceremonies and customs, it's also reasonable to ask if they are in line with Scripture. Is there precedent in the New Testament for setting apart an individual believer as some sort of special intercessor before God?

The Bible's word for "saint" comes from the Greek word hagios (pronounced "hag'-ee-os"), which means "most holy thing, a saint," according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon. In the New Testament, saints are often referred to in the plural as a group of Christian believers. In Acts 9:13, responding to Jesus' command that he go help the newly converted Saul of Tarsus, Ananias said, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem" (NKJV).

That same Saul, now Paul, an apostle of the Christ whose followers he persecuted, would greet the believers at Corinth this way: "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Corinthians 1:2 NKJV).

Are saints "special" people who must be "recognized" by a church authority? The Bible says otherwise: Every person who believes in Christ is a saint, and congregations of believers are all saints. What's more, we're considered saints while we're living, without having to wait for death or for some process by which our sainthood is confirmed.

That's good news, but it also carries responsibility: Those who are believers must live like believers. Paul, who observed a culture in direct rebellion to God's law, wrote this to the brethren at Ephesus: "Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3 NASB). Paul believed there was right and wrong behavior for those who considered themselves saints—that is, as members of the church.

Sainthood isn't something that arrives after this life. It isn't something earned by good deeds or even miraculous happenings. Instead, being a saint is what each and every person called to a life of service in Jesus Christ—and that includes every believer reading these words—happens to be. Our challenge is to live in a way that expresses that saintly designation. That doesn't mean being "holier-than-thou," but rather by doing good for those with whom we live—at home, at school, at work, and, yes, every time we gather together for worship or study.

We do good not for the purpose of earning salvation or some title, but rather because God so loved us that He sent Jesus to die for us and we, in turn, have accepted the gift of salvation.

AF Blog | Amazing Facts

The AF Blog features news and articles regarding current events from a Biblical viewpoint with an emphasis on Bible Prophecy.

www.amazingfacts.org

 

[Artful Revealer]

@phipps

Sabbath wasn’t changed from Saturday to Sunday. Sabbath is still on the seventh day, but it has been replaced in worship with the Lord’s Day on the eight day. Sabbath is still on Saturday, the 7th day, it has not become the day of the Resurrection, which is the day Catholics hold mass. According to Catholic catechism, Sabbath (7) honours the creation of heaven and earth and everything in it. The Lord’s day (8) honours the new creation, in Jesus’ resurrection.

 

[Daciple]

It is a wonder to me why a Gnostic whose Religion was almost completely murdered off by and whose Religion is denounced clearly and completely within all of the Early Church Fathers and exceedingly moreso from the Late Church Fathers, is in a thread defending the Theocratic Organization that made it its mission to eradicate his Faith from the Planet. Add on top of that the Sword Bearing Scimitar holding fake Muslim also defending this same Theocratic Organization that literally went to war with those of your supposed Faith for Centuries.

All of whom, the Gnostic not Christian, the Catholic, and the Fake Muslim, are united against the Biblical Christians. Funny how Satan lays aside his weapons he formed to cause division to unite against the One Truth isnt it...