Catholicism 101

phipps

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The "yelling" comment wasn't directed a you, it was a general statement. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words. Forgive me if I upset you. That wasn't my intention.
I am a blunt person (that upsets some people here) but I didn't think I was yelling. I wasn't upset though. I just had to let you know I wasn't yelling. Its all good.
 






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Toulouse

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Nov 23, 2019
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I am a blunt person (that upsets some people here) but I didn't think I was yelling. I wasn't upset though. I just had to let you know I wasn't yelling. Its all good.
Thanks for the clarification. I am just the opposite - not better or worse, just different. I've never been confrontational. Several months ago I saw on YouTube a video on which Woody Allen had a talk show back in the 70s. His guest on this episode was William F. Buckley! I guess today that would be the equivalent of Rush Limbaugh (not a fan) appearing on Oprah (definitely not a fan). The way they showed respect for each other, despite their differences, was very refreshing. The poked fun at each other and could laugh at each other and themselves, really. Very refreshing. I'm not into the cut-throat politics, but I'm not a wall-flower either. I've just had too many trips around the sun (though not in my 60s yet) to spend my time bantering about. I've learned to choose my battles.

That being said, I'll say my piece, and in no way am I being condescending. You have my respect as fellow human and a fellow believer. I can certainly tell that you're intelligent. Yes, we are fellow believers.

So, I want to clarify what you've said above. I don't have time to comment on all of your excellent post above, but there are some errors. I strongly encourage you to dig deeper into what the Catholic Church believes. In fact, instead of going to websites, etc., call your local parish, make an appointment with the priest and go and ask him about your misgivings.

Your claim that we "re-sacrifice" Jesus is understandable, but that's NOT what happens. There is a sacrifice, to be sure, but it's the same sacrifice that happened on Calvary almost 2,000 years-ago - all beginning with the Last Supper. Again, no time to go further. My apologies. But there is more.

There is no where in any official teaching of the Church that instructs believers to worship Mary. If individual Catholics have placed too much emphasis on Mary, then that is problematic for them and for those on the outside looking in. Point blank: it's wrong and they are misguided. That's not the fault of the Church, however. Mary assists Jesus, as a helper (don't we help Jesus when we serve the poor, etc.?) just like she did giving Him birth, or when she asked Jesus to help out the bride and groom when they ran out of wine at Cana. God could have used another means, but He didn't. Right worship belongs to God/Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We just give Mary her due. She played a huge part in salvation history, and for some reason, for some people, giving her recognition is very threatening. Again, Phipps, there is nothing in our belief system that instructs us to worship Mary. If that were so, then you or anyone could rightly call Catholics "pagans" and "idolaters."

The thing about reading the Bible and Catholics being encouraged to not read it. Again, it's important not to get anachronistic about anything. Recall that most Europeans could not read, even well after Gutenberg's Printer. This is one reason we have stained glass windows and statues. They are both merely visual aids to help people remember the great examples and holy lives that people led. As I mentioned about, all joking aside, if you see someone praying to a statue then pray for them - they are probably mentally ill. We don't pray to the statues. So, people couldn't read and priests were trusted to teach. In the 1960s, God always gets His Way, with the sex, drugs, and music carnival, the Charismatic Renewal took place and Catholics were prayed over by some Pentecostals, received the Holy Spirit and became very hungry for the Word of God. The number of prayer groups and bible studies exploded. Christian communities sprang up all over the world. My point, Catholics in general, not to the person, are more educated and encouraged to pray with Scripture.

Call that priest. Blessings. Pray for Australia.

Again, make an appointment with a priest and save yourself a lot of heartache. He could do a much better job of explain this than I can. I'm interested in learning what you find out.
 






phipps

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Thanks for the clarification. I am just the opposite - not better or worse, just different. I've never been confrontational. Several months ago I saw on YouTube a video on which Woody Allen had a talk show back in the 70s. His guest on this episode was William F. Buckley! I guess today that would be the equivalent of Rush Limbaugh (not a fan) appearing on Oprah (definitely not a fan). The way they showed respect for each other, despite their differences, was very refreshing. The poked fun at each other and could laugh at each other and themselves, really. Very refreshing. I'm not into the cut-throat politics, but I'm not a wall-flower either. I've just had too many trips around the sun (though not in my 60s yet) to spend my time bantering about. I've learned to choose my battles.

That being said, I'll say my piece, and in no way am I being condescending. You have my respect as fellow human and a fellow believer. I can certainly tell that you're intelligent. Yes, we are fellow believers.

So, I want to clarify what you've said above. I don't have time to comment on all of your excellent post above, but there are some errors. I strongly encourage you to dig deeper into what the Catholic Church believes. In fact, instead of going to websites, etc., call your local parish, make an appointment with the priest and go and ask him about your misgivings.

Your claim that we "re-sacrifice" Jesus is understandable, but that's NOT what happens. There is a sacrifice, to be sure, but it's the same sacrifice that happened on Calvary almost 2,000 years-ago - all beginning with the Last Supper. Again, no time to go further. My apologies. But there is more.

There is no where in any official teaching of the Church that instructs believers to worship Mary. If individual Catholics have placed too much emphasis on Mary, then that is problematic for them and for those on the outside looking in. Point blank: it's wrong and they are misguided. That's not the fault of the Church, however. Mary assists Jesus, as a helper (don't we help Jesus when we serve the poor, etc.?) just like she did giving Him birth, or when she asked Jesus to help out the bride and groom when they ran out of wine at Cana. God could have used another means, but He didn't. Right worship belongs to God/Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We just give Mary her due. She played a huge part in salvation history, and for some reason, for some people, giving her recognition is very threatening. Again, Phipps, there is nothing in our belief system that instructs us to worship Mary. If that were so, then you or anyone could rightly call Catholics "pagans" and "idolaters."

The thing about reading the Bible and Catholics being encouraged to not read it. Again, it's important not to get anachronistic about anything. Recall that most Europeans could not read, even well after Gutenberg's Printer. This is one reason we have stained glass windows and statues. They are both merely visual aids to help people remember the great examples and holy lives that people led. As I mentioned about, all joking aside, if you see someone praying to a statue then pray for them - they are probably mentally ill. We don't pray to the statues. So, people couldn't read and priests were trusted to teach. In the 1960s, God always gets His Way, with the sex, drugs, and music carnival, the Charismatic Renewal took place and Catholics were prayed over by some Pentecostals, received the Holy Spirit and became very hungry for the Word of God. The number of prayer groups and bible studies exploded. Christian communities sprang up all over the world. My point, Catholics in general, not to the person, are more educated and encouraged to pray with Scripture.

Call that priest. Blessings. Pray for Australia.

Again, make an appointment with a priest and save yourself a lot of heartache. He could do a much better job of explain this than I can. I'm interested in learning what you find out.
I actually don't feel so strongly about many things in life. I don't like or feel strongly about politics. I keep up with what is happening but don't care to debate about it. I don't say much on those forums. I do feel strongly about God and His Word and therefore will debate about it strongly.

I respect you too and I think you're an intelligent person too but you are wrong about Catholicism.

So, I want to clarify what you've said above. I don't have time to comment on all of your excellent post above, but there are some errors. I strongly encourage you to dig deeper into what the Catholic Church believes. In fact, instead of going to websites, etc., call your local parish, make an appointment with the priest and go and ask him about your misgivings.
I have gone deep into what the Catholic Church believes and I have read a lot of their literature because the Catholic Church and the Papacy is written of in end time prophecy. It is the little horn power of Daniel 7, the first beast or the beast of the sea of Revelation 13 and the whore of Babylon in revelation 17. How do you think I know everything I wrote about Catholicism in my forum and on here? I may have used other people's words mostly because I'm not a good writer, but this is a subject I've known about for over twenty years. So I will not go to their websites any more or go to a local parish to speak to a priest. I know I have no misgivings about Catholicism. What I have told you is the truth. I urge you to study the Bible as opposed to doing what the Catholic Church teaches and believes. Pray that God reveals His truth to you.

Your claim that we "re-sacrifice" Jesus is understandable, but that's NOT what happens. There is a sacrifice, to be sure, but it's the same sacrifice that happened on Calvary almost 2,000 years-ago - all beginning with the Last Supper. Again, no time to go further. My apologies. But there is more.
Its not my claim that Catholics re-sacrifice Jesus. Its Catholicism's claim. They just don't put it the way I do. Catholics believe in transubstantiation which is the belief that when a priest blesses the bread and wine of the Eucharist, it becomes Christ's literal body and blood. Catholicism teaches that Christ taught His disciples about transubstantiation, and then gave them the power to transform the bread and wine into His body and blood. This power is then passed on through ordination to priests throughout the generations

The Catholic catechism says, "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God who indeed intercedes for us, is present in many ways to His Church..."most especially in the Eucharistic species." The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend." In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained." "This presence is called 'real'...because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes Himself wholly and entirely present." It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament." The Celebration of Christian Mystery," The Catechism of the Catholic Church (Liguori Publications, 1994): 346.

The Bible says:

Hebrews 7:27, "who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself."

Hebrews 9:24-28, "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

Hebrews 10:10, "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit."

Now maybe you don't believe in transubstantiation but your Church's position on this subject is clear.

The Roman Catholic Institution in their Canon laws state:
"If any one shall deny that the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as a sign, or in a figure, let him be accursed." (Accursed means to be damned, under a curse.)

There is no where in any official teaching of the Church that instructs believers to worship Mary. If individual Catholics have placed too much emphasis on Mary, then that is problematic for them and for those on the outside looking in. Point blank: it's wrong and they are misguided. That's not the fault of the Church, however. Mary assists Jesus, as a helper (don't we help Jesus when we serve the poor, etc.?) just like she did giving Him birth, or when she asked Jesus to help out the bride and groom when they ran out of wine at Cana. God could have used another means, but He didn't. Right worship belongs to God/Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We just give Mary her due.
If they put Mary in the same position as Jesus Christ who is God, then your teachings teach you to worship Mary. How can Mary be Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate and be prayed to and you think she is not worshipped? What does worship mean? According to the Cambridge dictionary it is "the act of worshipping God or a god, often through praying or singing". Well Catholics do this, and I've witnessed it myself. They even have a day of Mary where her statue was followed all day which is idolatry. So Catholics break the first, and second commandments of the Bible by worshipping Mary

She played a huge part in salvation history, and for some reason, for some people, giving her recognition is very threatening. Again, Phipps, there is nothing in our belief system that instructs us to worship Mary. If that were so, then you or anyone could rightly call Catholics "pagans" and "idolaters."
So now Mary played a part in salvation history not salvation itself? Mary played no part in salvation history either. No part whatsoever! Mary needed to be saved just like you and me. She needed a Saviour too. The Catholic church gives her too much recognition. Recognition that only God deserves. The Bible doesn't say much about her. Remember Mary gave birth to human Jesus not to God. When Jesus was on earth He was fully human and He didn't exercise His Godly power. I rightly called them pagans and idolaters whether they think they are or not. Look at the first two commandments I posted above.

The thing about reading the Bible and Catholics being encouraged to not read it. Again, it's important not to get anachronistic about anything. Recall that most Europeans could not read, even well after Gutenberg's Printer. This is one reason we have stained glass windows and statues. They are both merely visual aids to help people remember the great examples and holy lives that people led.
Who is being anachronistic? I told you I went to Catholic school and that certainly wasn't in the dark ages or during the time the Catholic Church ruled aggressively and persecuted anyone that opposed them. Catholics do not study the Bible as I witnessed. I come from a family that studies the Bible and I found that my Catholic friends didn't even know basic stories in the Bible.

Yes most Europeans could not read and that suited the Catholic Church. They didn't want people to learn to read and write because they wanted to make money from them. They intentionally kept people in ignorance They read the Bible in Latin that most people did not speak or understand and did not read whole parts of the Bible that contradicted their false doctrine. Those that could read and wanted to spread the good news of the gospel were killed in the most cruel ways possible. Historians say the Catholic Church is responsible for the deaths of about 50-100,000,000 people. Many Europeans fled Europe by going to America where they could have freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

As I mentioned about, all joking aside, if you see someone praying to a statue then pray for them - they are probably mentally ill. We don't pray to the statues. So, people couldn't read and priests were trusted to teach. In the 1960s, God always gets His Way, with the sex, drugs, and music carnival, the Charismatic Renewal took place and Catholics were prayed over by some Pentecostals, received the Holy Spirit and became very hungry for the Word of God. The number of prayer groups and bible studies exploded. Christian communities sprang up all over the world. My point, Catholics in general, not to the person, are more educated and encouraged to pray with Scripture.
Then millions of Catholics are mentally ill as I told you before. I told you there is a reason why Catholics took out the second commandment out of their commandments. They knew they are idolators and pray to statues which is something God abhors. Priests were not interested in teaching people anything. They were only interested in making money out of the people and protecting their positions of power. Priests in those days held a lot of power and were rich. How would reading the Bible in Latin a language most people didn't speak or understand help anyone except the very elite? I went to school decades after the sixties and still there was no emphasis on studying the Bible by Catholics. If any Catholic studied/studies the Bible and stayed/stays a Catholic, they did not understand the Word of God. Catholicism completely contradicts the Bible. You are wrong, Catholics are the least educated and encouraged to pray with scripture. Praying with the rosary, praying to dead saints is wrong.

I don't know how long you've been a Catholic but you don't seem to know much about your own religion. You don't even know your history which is very bloody. The Bible says in Daniel 7:25, "He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints (remember who saints are in the Bible) of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law (changing the ten commandments and day of worship). Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time (1260 years, this time period is mentioned in Revelation too)."

The Catholic Church has a long history of "persecuting" the saints of the Most High. Their doctrine contradicts the Word of God too. I pray that God opens your heart to His truths.
 






Toulouse

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I actually don't feel so strongly about many things in life. I don't like or feel strongly about politics. I keep up with what is happening but don't care to debate about it. I don't say much on those forums. I do feel strongly about God and His Word and therefore will debate about it strongly.

I respect you too and I think you're an intelligent person too but you are wrong about Catholicism.



I have gone deep into what the Catholic Church believes and I have read a lot of their literature because the Catholic Church and the Papacy is written of in end time prophecy. It is the little horn power of Daniel 7, the first beast or the beast of the sea of Revelation 13 and the whore of Babylon in revelation 17. How do you think I know everything I wrote about Catholicism in my forum and on here? I may have used other people's words mostly because I'm not a good writer, but this is a subject I've known about for over twenty years. So I will not go to their websites any more or go to a local parish to speak to a priest. I know I have no misgivings about Catholicism. What I have told you is the truth. I urge you to study the Bible as opposed to doing what the Catholic Church teaches and believes. Pray that God reveals His truth to you.



Its not my claim that Catholics re-sacrifice Jesus. Its Catholicism's claim. They just don't put it the way I do. Catholics believe in transubstantiation which is the belief that when a priest blesses the bread and wine of the Eucharist, it becomes Christ's literal body and blood. Catholicism teaches that Christ taught His disciples about transubstantiation, and then gave them the power to transform the bread and wine into His body and blood. This power is then passed on through ordination to priests throughout the generations

The Catholic catechism says, "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God who indeed intercedes for us, is present in many ways to His Church..."most especially in the Eucharistic species." The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend." In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained." "This presence is called 'real'...because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes Himself wholly and entirely present." It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament." The Celebration of Christian Mystery," The Catechism of the Catholic Church (Liguori Publications, 1994): 346.

The Bible says:

Hebrews 7:27, "who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself."

Hebrews 9:24-28, "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

Hebrews 10:10, "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit."

Now maybe you don't believe in transubstantiation but your Church's position on this subject is clear.

The Roman Catholic Institution in their Canon laws state:
"If any one shall deny that the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as a sign, or in a figure, let him be accursed." (Accursed means to be damned, under a curse.)



If they put Mary in the same position as Jesus Christ who is God, then your teachings teach you to worship Mary. How can Mary be Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate and be prayed to and you think she is not worshipped? What does worship mean? According to the Cambridge dictionary it is "the act of worshipping God or a god, often through praying or singing". Well Catholics do this, and I've witnessed it myself. They even have a day of Mary where her statue was followed all day which is idolatry. So Catholics break the first, and second commandments of the Bible by worshipping Mary



So now Mary played a part in salvation history not salvation itself? Mary played no part in salvation history either. No part whatsoever! Mary needed to be saved just like you and me. She needed a Saviour too. The Catholic church gives her too much recognition. Recognition that only God deserves. The Bible doesn't say much about her. Remember Mary gave birth to human Jesus not to God. When Jesus was on earth He was fully human and He didn't exercise His Godly power. I rightly called them pagans and idolaters whether they think they are or not. Look at the first two commandments I posted above.



Who is being anachronistic? I told you I went to Catholic school and that certainly wasn't in the dark ages or during the time the Catholic Church ruled aggressively and persecuted anyone that opposed them. Catholics do not study the Bible as I witnessed. I come from a family that studies the Bible and I found that my Catholic friends didn't even know basic stories in the Bible.

Yes most Europeans could not read and that suited the Catholic Church. They didn't want people to learn to read and write because they wanted to make money from them. They intentionally kept people in ignorance They read the Bible in Latin that most people did not speak or understand and did not read whole parts of the Bible that contradicted their false doctrine. Those that could read and wanted to spread the good news of the gospel were killed in the most cruel ways possible. Historians say the Catholic Church is responsible for the deaths of about 50-100,000,000 people. Many Europeans fled Europe by going to America where they could have freedom of thought, conscience and religion.



Then millions of Catholics are mentally ill as I told you before. I told you there is a reason why Catholics took out the second commandment out of their commandments. They knew they are idolators and pray to statues which is something God abhors. Priests were not interested in teaching people anything. They were only interested in making money out of the people and protecting their positions of power. Priests in those days held a lot of power and were rich. How would reading the Bible in Latin a language most people didn't speak or understand help anyone except the very elite? I went to school decades after the sixties and still there was no emphasis on studying the Bible by Catholics. If any Catholic studied/studies the Bible and stayed/stays a Catholic, they did not understand the Word of God. Catholicism completely contradicts the Bible. You are wrong, Catholics are the least educated and encouraged to pray with scripture. Praying with the rosary, praying to dead saints is wrong.

I don't know how long you've been a Catholic but you don't seem to know much about your own religion. You don't even know your history which is very bloody. The Bible says in Daniel 7:25, "He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints (remember who saints are in the Bible) of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law (changing the ten commandments and day of worship). Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time (1260 years, this time period is mentioned in Revelation too)."

The Catholic Church has a long history of "persecuting" the saints of the Most High. Their doctrine contradicts the Word of God too. I pray that God opens your heart to His truths.


Will you pray for me?
 






Toulouse

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Joined
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Messages
117
I already have and will do again.
Thank you, Phipps. So, what I just did, according to all the critics of Catholicism, was worshipped you. In all of the pictures in which people are seen kneeling before statues and images, that is all they are doing, asking people (souls except for Mary) who are in Heaven to pray for them. They are merely dead, many would argue? They are (S)saints in Heaven praising God, and they pray for us. They are more alive than you and me.

Stay with me here. Luke 1:28 "Hail, (Mary) Full of Grace, The Lord is with you." That's an Angel speaking to a human. Luke 1:42 "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of they womb, Jesus." Then, just as I asked you to pray for me..."Holy (we just called her blessed, coming directly from the Bible), Mary, Mother of God (Jesus is God), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

And this is threatening and will damn us to hell?
 






phipps

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Messages
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Thank you, Phipps. So, what I just did, according to all the critics of Catholicism, was worshipped you. In all of the pictures in which people are seen kneeling before statues and images, that is all they are doing, asking people (souls except for Mary) who are in Heaven to pray for them. They are merely dead, many would argue? They are (S)saints in Heaven praising God, and they pray for us. They are more alive than you and me.

Stay with me here. Luke 1:28 "Hail, (Mary) Full of Grace, The Lord is with you." That's an Angel speaking to a human. Luke 1:42 "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of they womb, Jesus." Then, just as I asked you to pray for me..."Holy (we just called her blessed, coming directly from the Bible), Mary, Mother of God (Jesus is God), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

And this is threatening and will damn us to hell?
You know there is more to Mary worship than what you're saying. Do you also call me Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate and put me on the same position as God? Do you call me "Queen of heaven", say my conception was "immaculate", say I was a virgin perpetually even though Mary had other children and say I had a "glorious assumption" even though there is no proof of that biblically or anywhere else? Do I have supernatural apparitions that are apparently accompanied by miracles and healings? Do you take pilgrimages to see, kneel and pray before my statues and images? Am I dead yet you ask me to pray for you? Where in the Bible does it say Mary is in heaven? How do you know she is in heaven? I have repeatedly told you to read what your Church says about Mary. Read what the Popes have said about Mary and there can be no doubt its worship! Catholics have replaced Jesus with Mary.

Luke 1:28 was just telling Mary why she was favoured by God and why she was chosen to give birth to Jesus the man. All those who are righteous and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and submit to Him are favoured. It wasn't just Mary nor was it meant to be a prayer to her. When Jesus was on earth He needed to pray to His Father like we all do. He needed that daily communication with God the Father as we all do. The disciples asked Him to teach them how to pray. Not once do we read Jesus prayed to Mary or asked her to pray for Him. Jesus showed the disciples what the pattern of prayer should be. He said, "In this manner, therefore, pray" (Matthew 6:9). Then He said the Lord's prayer. The Lord's prayer is the blueprint for prayer. As you know we are not supposed to pray using vain repetitions. "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words" (Matthew 6:7). We are supposed to pray to the Father through the name of Jesus. No one can take the place of Jesus. Jesus said, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" (Matthew 28:18). Does Mary have such power and authority? Can she as a created being? And asking people to pray for us here on earth is biblical. Praying for each other is biblical. For example Daniel prays for himself and his people the Jews in Daniel 9. It is not biblical to pray to Mary and the saints in heaven and ask them to pray for people on earth. There is no need to when we have Jesus in the heavenly temple advocating for us.

Hebrews 4:14, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession."

Hebrews 7:25, "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

Hebrews 9:23, "Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."


Jesus is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary/temple. He is there to mediate for His people and stands ready to blot out the sins of all who will exercise faith in His shed blood. No one except Christ can do this for us. So we only need to pray to God in heaven not created beings in heaven.









1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."
 






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Todd

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Thank you, Phipps. So, what I just did, according to all the critics of Catholicism, was worshipped you. In all of the pictures in which people are seen kneeling before statues and images, that is all they are doing, asking people (souls except for Mary) who are in Heaven to pray for them. They are merely dead, many would argue? They are (S)saints in Heaven praising God, and they pray for us. They are more alive than you and me.

Stay with me here. Luke 1:28 "Hail, (Mary) Full of Grace, The Lord is with you." That's an Angel speaking to a human. Luke 1:42 "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of they womb, Jesus." Then, just as I asked you to pray for me..."Holy (we just called her blessed, coming directly from the Bible), Mary, Mother of God (Jesus is God), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

And this is threatening and will damn us to hell?
Of course it's not threatening you and damning you to hell, but it is likely a waste of time. The first resurrection hasn't happened yet. According to Paul our deceased loved ones, family members and all the past saints of the church are in the grave "asleep" waiting for the resurrection. I don't know about you, but asking a sleeping person to pray for you probably is not going to yield the results you are hoping for.
 






Lisa

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Thank you, Phipps. So, what I just did, according to all the critics of Catholicism, was worshipped you. In all of the pictures in which people are seen kneeling before statues and images, that is all they are doing, asking people (souls except for Mary) who are in Heaven to pray for them. They are merely dead, many would argue? They are (S)saints in Heaven praising God, and they pray for us. They are more alive than you and me.

Stay with me here. Luke 1:28 "Hail, (Mary) Full of Grace, The Lord is with you." That's an Angel speaking to a human. Luke 1:42 "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of they womb, Jesus." Then, just as I asked you to pray for me..."Holy (we just called her blessed, coming directly from the Bible), Mary, Mother of God (Jesus is God), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

And this is threatening and will damn us to hell?
You didn’t worship him by asking him to pray for you..
James‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.​
‭‭
It’s who you’re praying to that counts. Asking someone to pray for you isn’t the same as praying to them. You both are praying to someone for answers. If you are praying to Mary, that is a form of worship as only God can answer prayers, you are praying to the wrong person when you pray to Mary. First off she is dead..long dead and since she is dead she can’t hear your prayers, answer you prayers or do Jesus’ job and be mediator for you to God. Secondly, there is no place in the Bible that Jesus ever said to pray to her or was shown to be praying to her ever. Thirdly, none of the disciples/apostles ever prayed to her either nor were they shown to in the Bible.

So you see, that practice of praying to Mary is wrong biblically, which is one of the reasons why I say catholicism isn’t Christianity and its a false religion. If its not in the Bible..God’s inspired word...it can’t be true.

It‘s a sad thing to try to trap someone with a plea for prayer...you should be ashamed!
 






floss

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Stay with me here. Luke 1:28 "Hail, (Mary) Full of Grace, The Lord is with you." That's an Angel speaking to a human. Luke 1:42 "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of they womb, Jesus." Then, just as I asked you to pray for me..."Holy (we just called her blessed, coming directly from the Bible), Mary, Mother of God (Jesus is God), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Curious, how did you get "Hail, (Mary) Full of Grace" from Luke 1:28? I don't see how "thou that art highly favoured" = "full of grace". Please explain. Thanks

Luke 1:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

And this is threatening and will damn us to hell?
You're committing idolatry which give the devil a right to infiltrate your mind resulting in believing damnable doctrines of devils. Yes you will be damn to hell if you don't repent of your idolatry and closed these open doors. You will NOT see the truth of His Grace until God forgive you. How can he forgive you if you always goes to Mary?

Get on your knees, repent and renounce worshiping Mary. Tell God from now on you will ONLY trust JESUS and NO ONE ELSE. This will close that open door and the devil will no longer able to accuse you to the Father. Ask God to fill you with His Mercy and Grace. Pray the Blood of Jesus over you and rebuke any whispering from devils. Then, ask Him to fill you with the spirit of Truth and open your eyes so you can see.
 






Toulouse

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You know there is more to Mary worship than what you're saying. Do you also call me Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate and put me on the same position as God? Do you call me "Queen of heaven", say my conception was "immaculate", say I was a virgin perpetually even though Mary had other children and say I had a "glorious assumption" even though there is no proof of that biblically or anywhere else? Do I have supernatural apparitions that are apparently accompanied by miracles and healings? Do you take pilgrimages to see, kneel and pray before my statues and images? Am I dead yet you ask me to pray for you? Where in the Bible does it say Mary is in heaven? How do you know she is in heaven? I have repeatedly told you to read what your Church says about Mary. Read what the Popes have said about Mary and there can be no doubt its worship! Catholics have replaced Jesus with Mary.

Luke 1:28 was just telling Mary why she was favoured by God and why she was chosen to give birth to Jesus the man. All those who are righteous and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and submit to Him are favoured. It wasn't just Mary nor was it meant to be a prayer to her. When Jesus was on earth He needed to pray to His Father like we all do. He needed that daily communication with God the Father as we all do. The disciples asked Him to teach them how to pray. Not once do we read Jesus prayed to Mary or asked her to pray for Him. Jesus showed the disciples what the pattern of prayer should be. He said, "In this manner, therefore, pray" (Matthew 6:9). Then He said the Lord's prayer. The Lord's prayer is the blueprint for prayer. As you know we are not supposed to pray using vain repetitions. "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words" (Matthew 6:7). We are supposed to pray to the Father through the name of Jesus. No one can take the place of Jesus. Jesus said, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" (Matthew 28:18). Does Mary have such power and authority? Can she as a created being? And asking people to pray for us here on earth is biblical. Praying for each other is biblical. For example Daniel prays for himself and his people the Jews in Daniel 9. It is not biblical to pray to Mary and the saints in heaven and ask them to pray for people on earth. There is no need to when we have Jesus in the heavenly temple advocating for us.

Hebrews 4:14, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession."

Hebrews 7:25, "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

Hebrews 9:23, "Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."


Jesus is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary/temple. He is there to mediate for His people and stands ready to blot out the sins of all who will exercise faith in His shed blood. No one except Christ can do this for us. So we only need to pray to God in heaven not created beings in heaven.









1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."
Throughout history, at least European history, when people appeared before the king, queen, or both, they knelt. This was not an act of worship. If Fundamentalist Christianity existed back then, thank God it didn't, then most of the people, by this act alone would be committing idolatry, according to your argument. You argument falls flat. Kneeling a sign of submission.

Phipps, I didn't kneel and worship you when I asked you if you would pray for me because you didn't give birth to the Savior of the World. If Mary is Co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix, it's only because she helped with the process. That's all. She is not equal to Jesus because she is not God. Official teaching does not say that she is no Co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix . Official teaching does not say this, anywhere. It doesn't matter what anyone's friends say, do, or believe, or what Grannie Annie did or didn't do at Mass. It is not official teaching.

Catholics do not worship Mary. Do we show her respect? Aboslutely, and rightly so. It doesn't matter how many times someone says that we worship Mary. That will not make it true. If people can't accept this, then there is a disconnect somewhere. Perhaps people can't accept it because it would take away the validity of their belief system. Refusal to talk with a real authority instead of misguided friends who hang in bars, sleep around, and who don't give a rip about their faith, isn't sound. In philosophy, we call that a strawman fallacy.

I have no intention of responding to these from this point. But I will pray for you. My intention was to not show any disrespect to anyone. If I did, then please forgive me. I hope the same is reciprocated. Blessings.
 






Lisa

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Catholics do not worship Mary. Do we show her respect? Aboslutely, and rightly so.
Why is it rightly so? Aren’t you taking the worship you should be giving to God and bestowing it on a human instead?
 






A Freeman

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There is no queen of heaven as far as our Creator is concerned, and chanting worthless hails to her and telling people to pray to her is absolutely violating the first and most important Commandment, which is a capital offense under The Law.

Jeremiah 7:18-19
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make wafers to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke Me to anger? saith the "I AM": [do they] not [provoke] themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Jeremiah 44:17-25
44:16 [As for] the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the "I AM", we will not hearken unto thee.
44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for [then] had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all [things], and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her wafers to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
44:20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him [that] answer, saying,
44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the "I AM" remember them, and came it [not] into His mind?
44:22 So that the "I AM" could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, [and] because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
44:23 Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the "I AM", and have not obeyed the voice of the "I AM", nor walked in His Law, nor in His Statutes, nor in His Covenant; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.
44:24 Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the Word of the "I AM", all Judah that [are] in the land of Egypt:
44:25 Thus saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

If you pray to Mary you are disobeying and insulting God and because of that He will not answer you and will allow you to punish yourselves and suffer, withholding His help and Guidance until you stop insulting Him and approach Him in the correct* manner just as Abel did. Cain sought to approach God in the way he decided himself, instead of The Way he had been told by God and so was rejected by God and suffered for the rest of his life. If you approach God directly as He says, in private, instead of in public through Mary, who is definitely not in heaven (John 3:13), He will answer you.

Matthew 6:5-10
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward - they have been seen by men..
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private (telepathically); and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
6:7 But when ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions, as the heathen [DO]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking (repeating the same tired old phrases over and over every week).
6:8 Be NOT ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of (to be able to do His Will), BEFORE ye ask Him.
6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name.
6:10 Thy Kingdom come. Thy Will (Islam in Arabic) be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
 






phipps

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Throughout history, at least European history, when people appeared before the king, queen, or both, they knelt. This was not an act of worship. If Fundamentalist Christianity existed back then, thank God it didn't, then most of the people, by this act alone would be committing idolatry, according to your argument. You argument falls flat. Kneeling a sign of submission.

Phipps, I didn't kneel and worship you when I asked you if you would pray for me because you didn't give birth to the Savior of the World. If Mary is Co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix, it's only because she helped with the process. That's all. She is not equal to Jesus because she is not God. Official teaching does not say that she is no Co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix . Official teaching does not say this, anywhere. It doesn't matter what anyone's friends say, do, or believe, or what Grannie Annie did or didn't do at Mass. It is not official teaching.

Catholics do not worship Mary. Do we show her respect? Aboslutely, and rightly so. It doesn't matter how many times someone says that we worship Mary. That will not make it true. If people can't accept this, then there is a disconnect somewhere. Perhaps people can't accept it because it would take away the validity of their belief system. Refusal to talk with a real authority instead of misguided friends who hang in bars, sleep around, and who don't give a rip about their faith, isn't sound. In philosophy, we call that a strawman fallacy.

I have no intention of responding to these from this point. But I will pray for you. My intention was to not show any disrespect to anyone. If I did, then please forgive me. I hope the same is reciprocated. Blessings.
Throughout history, at least European history, when people appeared before the king, queen, or both, they knelt. This was not an act of worship. If Fundamentalist Christianity existed back then, thank God it didn't, then most of the people, by this act alone would be committing idolatry, according to your argument. You argument falls flat. Kneeling a sign of submission.
There is a difference between kneeling before royalty to kneeling before a statue of someone who died a long time ago and worshipping them. A huge difference! One is a sign of respect the other is an act of worship. Mary is not only being knelt and bowed to, she is prayed to, they call her names that are equivalent to God (Co-redemptrix, Mediator, Advocator), they say she was conceived sinless, and lived a sinless life (immaculate), she was a perpetual virgin, she's the Queen of heaven, they have a feast day honouring the Queen of heaven etc. When you add all those dots together, it is clear Mary is being worshipped. You seem to be missing that point completely and I think you are missing the point intentionally.

Until you stop turning a blind eye to all those facts put together, you're the one whose argument is falling flat and you know that! You know I'm telling you the truth as other Christians here are too.

Phipps, I didn't kneel and worship you when I asked you if you would pray for me because you didn't give birth to the Savior of the World. If Mary is Co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix, it's only because she helped with the process. That's all. She is not equal to Jesus because she is not God. Official teaching does not say that she is no Co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix . Official teaching does not say this, anywhere. It doesn't matter what anyone's friends say, do, or believe, or what Grannie Annie did or didn't do at Mass. It is not official teaching.
Giving birth to Jesus the man, the Son of man, does not and never will mean Mary helped in anyone's salvation. She had no power or authority to. Only God can save and He didn't and does not need any help. Mary was the means in which Jesus came into this world to save us. She deserves no worship at all, she does not deserve to be prayed, knelt and bowed to at all. Only Christ deserves that. Not even the highest ranked angels such as Gabriel are worshipped and angels are more highly ranked than us. In the book of Revelation John goes to bow and worship an angel but the angels says, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Revelation 19:10). Whatever official Catholic teaching says, Mary is treated as a goddess in Catholicism. Therefore its idolatry. Connect the dots!

Catholics do not worship Mary. Do we show her respect? Aboslutely, and rightly so. It doesn't matter how many times someone says that we worship Mary. That will not make it true. If people can't accept this, then there is a disconnect somewhere. Perhaps people can't accept it because it would take away the validity of their belief system. Refusal to talk with a real authority instead of misguided friends who hang in bars, sleep around, and who don't give a rip about their faith, isn't sound. In philosophy, we call that a strawman fallacy.
They do worship Mary when you connect all the dots. Its not hard to tell what worship is no matter how much you deny it. No matter whether your Church says its worship or not. Btw have you read what the popes have said about her over the centuries? Mary is dead, why show a dead person respect? When did the Bible ever say we should show dead people respect? "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10).

Also have you completely ignored the point I made using Scripture about prayer in the Bible? We pray to the Father through Jesus Christ. And will you also ignore the biblical fact that we are not to pray to saints in heaven because Jesus is our advocate and is the one who pleads our cases before the Father in the heavenly Temple/Sanctuary? Which ever way you look at it Catholics are not doing things according to God's Will (some knowingly and some ignorantly). No matter how many times you repeat yourself won't change the fact that you worship Mary and commit the sin of idolatry which the Catholics took out of God's commandments. Do you think that was a coincidence? The Bible says, "He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time" (Daniel 7:25). Rome says, "The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." "The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. (The Pope can modify divine law.) Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary.

The Catholic Church have given themselves authority to do with God's law as they will. What human being has such authority? What created being has such authority? If God never changed the law who is the pope to do so?

Psalms 111:7-8, "The works of His hands are verity and justice; All His precepts are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, And are done in truth and uprightness."

Malachi 3:6,
“For I am the Lord, I do not change."

Luke 16:17, "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one
tittle of the law to fail."

If the law could have been changed there would be no need for Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. He would have just changed the law to suit us. So no matter what authority the pope thinks he has to change God's law, God's law will never change for eternity and it will be that law that we will all be judged by. Not the Catholic man made law.

I have no intention of responding to these from this point. But I will pray for you. My intention was to not show any disrespect to anyone. If I did, then please forgive me. I hope the same is reciprocated. Blessings.
This is my last response to you too. You have chosen your Church doctrine over the Word of God that's for sure but I will pray for you to realise the authority of God and not of your Church. There is a difference because your pope claims to have authority that only belongs to God. Don't bother praying for me to accept any human authority on spiritual matters. Or to pray to and worship anyone other than God. You will be wasting your time I'm afraid. That will never happen unless I go crazy.

I felt no disrespect at all. God bless.
 






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phipps

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The Bible vs Roman Catholicism.

- The Bible teaches that we are not to bow down to statues (Exodus 20:4-5). The Roman Catholic Church says that we should bow down to statues, not ancient tradition, but medieval tradition. The second commandment is missing in their catechism (book that sums up the beliefs of Catholics) simply because it is common practice to bow down before graven images in all Catholic churches.

The Ten Commandments of the Bible total 295 words in length. However, the Roman Catholic Church's ten commandments are a total of only 77 words. This is an open attempt to change the Law of God, regardless of the fact that Jesus Christ Himself declared in Matthew 5:18, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." The Catholic church has removed 218 jots and tittles from the Law of God just as Daniel stated they would in Daniel 7:25.

- The Bible teaches that all have sinned except Jesus (Romans 3:10-12, Hebrews 4:15). The Roman Catholic Church teaches that Mary was sinless.

- The Bible says that Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). The Roman Catholic Church says Mary is co-mediator with Christ.

- The Bible teaches that Christ offered His sacrifice on the cross once and for all (Hebrews 7:27-28 10:10). The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the priest sacrifices Christ on the altar at every mass.

- The Bible teaches that all Christians are saints and priests (Ephesians 1:1 and 1 Peter 2:9). The Roman Catholic Church says that saints and priests are special casts within the Christian community.

- The Bible teaches that all Christians should know that they have eternal life (1 John 5:13). The Roman Catholic Church teaches that all Christians cannot and should not know that they have eternal life.

- The Bible teaches that we should call no religious leader “father” (Matthew 23:9). The Roman Catholic Church teaches that we may call the priests and pope “father.”

- The Bible teaches to not pray in vain repetition (Matthew 6:7). The Roman Catholic Church says to pray the Lord’s prayer or Hail Mary’s in vain repetition.

- The Bible teaches to confess your sins to God, for only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25, Luke 5:24). The Roman Catholic Church says you must confess your sins to the priest for forgiveness.

- The teachings of purgatory, infant baptism, transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, the pope as head of the Church, clerical celibacy are nowhere in Scripture, but clearly relics of paganism.

We must not nullify the Word of God with man-made traditions (Mark 7:7-13, Colossians 2:8).
 






Lisa

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Take it up with Jesus. He said it! Apparently, that's not good enough. How ironic. The fallacy of sola scriptura.
He didn’t mean it in the way that catholics take it so, no it’s not good enough. If Jesus really meant to eat His actual flesh and drink His actual flesh...don’t ya think that His disciples would have chopped Him up right there and then? But they didn’t...He didn’t mean it in a literal sense. And..since He is also the once for all sacrifice for sin, if you believe on Him..what is the point of eating His actual flesh and drinking His actual blood? The whole point is that He is life for us and we should remember that when we eat and drink because that is what sustains our bodies..He is what sustains our souls.
 






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