On the Trinity:

[bible_student]

The only pagans that had trinitarian beliefs were Christians. It did not exist with other cults prior to Christian revelation.

It existed long before Christianty, at least as far back as Nimrod.

 

[A Freeman]

Except that the trinity doctrine predates the birth of the Catholic church.

Consider reading The Seven Ecumenical Councils by Philip Schaff. Most just jump on the bandwagon without really looking at what actually happened at Nicea. Btw references to the Trinity did exist in proto-Christian theology in the period prior to Nicea.

Also, that is not how etymology works.

Hope you won't mind someone else answering, but you're not telling the truth about this either, are you Robin?

The "trinity" began in Babylon, with Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz. The Romans are the direct descendants of the Babylonians, and the only race of people to ever destroy Solomon's Temple. They did it the first time as the Babylonians c. 588 BC and then again as the Romans c. 70 AD.

The pagan "trinity" doctrine took roughly 60 years or so for the Romans to develop, and reportedly didn't show up until the Council of Constantinople c. 381 AD, in the form of the Athanasian Creed, although that creed wasn't put into use until roughly 100 years later.

The pagan "trinity" doctrine wasn't even the majority opinion of those discussing it at the Council of Nicea or the Council of Constantinople. In fact, it wasn't even the most popular of the minority opinions either, but the mystery Babylon religion voted it into practice nevertheless.

So as to your assertion that the pagan "trinity" doctrine, with its mind-numbing 3=1 and 1=3 nonsense predated the Council of Nicea in 325 AD is correct in that it began in Babylon, but if you're implying that anyone believed in the non-existent Roman Catholic church before the 4th century, you're not being honest.

All of this has already been shared within this thread, so if you actually read it you should have been able to follow it up on your own rather than attack it from a point of ignorance. Please take the time to do the research on your own rather than continuing to be such a willing pawn.

 

[Artful Revealer]

It existed LONG before Christianty. At least as far back as Nimrod.

Show me.

 

[Artful Revealer]

It existed LONG before Christianty. At least as far back as Nimrod.

Source, please.

 

[Robin]

That is because it is pagan. It was incorporated into Roman Catholicism (Universalism - one world religion) as a political decision more than anything else, to be able to include the pagans and make it easier for them to be "converted" and brought under the RCC umbrella corporation.

http://donboys.cstnews.com/the-popes-church-is-the-largest-richest-corporation-in-the-world

Hope you won't mind someone else answering, but you're not telling the truth about this either, are you Robin?

The "trinity" began in Babylon, with Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz. The Romans are the direct descendants of the Babylonians, and the only race of people to ever destroy Solomon's Temple. They did it the first time as the Babylonians c. 588 BC and then again as the Romans c. 70 AD.

The pagan "trinity" doctrine took roughly 60 years or so for the Romans to develop, and reportedly didn't show up until the Council of Constantinople c. 381 AD, in the form of the Athanasian Creed, although that creed wasn't put into use until roughly 100 years later.

The pagan "trinity" doctrine wasn't even the majority opinion of those discussing it at the Council of Nicea or the Council of Constantinople. In fact, it wasn't even the most popular of the minority opinions either, but the mystery Babylon religion voted it into practice nevertheless.

So as to your assertion that the pagan "trinity" doctrine, with its mind-numbing 3=1 and 1=3 nonsense predated the Council of Nicea in 325 AD is correct in that it began in Babylon, but if you're implying that anyone believed in the non-existent Roman Catholic church before the 4th century, you're not being honest.

All of this has already been shared within this thread, so if you actually read it you should have been able to follow it up on your own rather than attack it from a point of ignorance. Please take the time to do the research on your own rather than continuing to be such a willing pawn.

Ignatius, the great martyr bishop of Antioch and Melito of Sardis for two examples of pre-Nicean Christian references to the Trinity/deity of Jesus.

Sources, not insults. You regurgitate the same stuff spouted by a man who claims red is an evil colour and linked to femininity as some proof of different levels of spiritual ascendance while not knowing that red was associated with MEN in BRITAIN (or is that Israel?) And pink with boys while blue was often linked to women brcause it was seen as soft and peaceful. Something Jesus would know, I think. When Jah Truth can get their colour history right then I'll give the site some thought. Goodbye.

 

[bible_student]

It's all over the internet.

The Pagan Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
It would surprise many to know that the absolute beginnings of the three in one trinity doctrine goes right back to the Tower of Babel on the plain of Shinar by the River Euphrates many generations after the flood. At the time of the construction of Babylon at the Tower of Babel, mankind had multiplied and spoken one language. (Genesis 11:1-4) Cush who was the son of Ham and grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:1, 6), helped to plan with his son Nimrod, a way to rule the world through a wicked counterfeit religion. Nimrod was the originator of sun worship and founder of Babylon. The Targum says, “Nimrod became a mighty man of sin, a murderer of innocent men, and a rebel before the Lord.”

So the beginning of Nimrod's plan had its origin at Babel which was later known as Babylon. This city of Babylon with a tower “whose top may reach unto heaven” was built by Nimrod (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:4).

They called the tower “Babel, the gate to heaven,” but God called it “Babel, confusion,” and there God confused the language of the people which forced them to scatter. These people wanted one government to rule the world and one religion to sway the hearts of man. This was Satan's attempt to defy God and His authority, but God came down and stopped this rebellion in defiance of His command for mankind to replenish the earth (Genesis 9:1) by confusing their language. So they stopped building and were scattered to different parts of the world (Genesis 11:8-9).

Nimrod had a plan to strengthen his evil religious system and so he married his own mother Semiramis. She was the first deified queen of Babylon and Nimrod was the first deified king.

Nimrod's and Semiramis' followers plunged so deeply into the occult that they even sacrificed babies to Satan in their worship of him. This became a common practice until Shem who was one of Noah's three sons and the great uncle of Nimrod, in his anger and wrath killed Nimrod and cut him up into small pieces as an example to others to not commit such abominable sins.

Alexander Hislop in his book The Two Babylons said, “the Tower of Babel was actually the worship of Satan in the form of fire, the sun and the serpent. However, Satan worship could not be done openly because of the many who still believed in the true God of Noah. So a mystery religion began at Babel where Satan could be worshipped in secret.” — (Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, 2nd American ed.(Neptune, New Jersey: Loizeaux Brothers, 1959) 5, 24)...

http://www.trinitytruth.org/paganoriginsofthetrinity.html

 

[Robin]

It's all over the internet.

The Pagan Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
It would surprise many to know that the absolute beginnings of the three in one trinity doctrine goes right back to the Tower of Babel on the plain of Shinar by the River Euphrates many generations after the flood. At the time of the construction of Babylon at the Tower of Babel, mankind had multiplied and spoken one language. (Genesis 11:1-4) Cush who was the son of Ham and grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:1, 6), helped to plan with his son Nimrod, a way to rule the world through a wicked counterfeit religion. Nimrod was the originator of sun worship and founder of Babylon. The Targum says, “Nimrod became a mighty man of sin, a murderer of innocent men, and a rebel before the Lord.”

So the beginning of Nimrod's plan had its origin at Babel which was later known as Babylon. This city of Babylon with a tower “whose top may reach unto heaven” was built by Nimrod (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:4).

They called the tower “Babel, the gate to heaven,” but God called it “Babel, confusion,” and there God confused the language of the people which forced them to scatter. These people wanted one government to rule the world and one religion to sway the hearts of man. This was Satan's attempt to defy God and His authority, but God came down and stopped this rebellion in defiance of His command for mankind to replenish the earth (Genesis 9:1) by confusing their language. So they stopped building and were scattered to different parts of the world (Genesis 11:8-9).

Nimrod had a plan to strengthen his evil religious system and so he married his own mother Semiramis. She was the first deified queen of Babylon and Nimrod was the first deified king.

Nimrod's and Semiramis' followers plunged so deeply into the occult that they even sacrificed babies to Satan in their worship of him. This became a common practice until Shem who was one of Noah's three sons and the great uncle of Nimrod, in his anger and wrath killed Nimrod and cut him up into small pieces as an example to others to not commit such abominable sins.

Alexander Hislop in his book The Two Babylons said, “the Tower of Babel was actually the worship of Satan in the form of fire, the sun and the serpent. However, Satan worship could not be done openly because of the many who still believed in the true God of Noah. So a mystery religion began at Babel where Satan could be worshipped in secret.” — (Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, 2nd American ed.(Neptune, New Jersey: Loizeaux Brothers, 1959) 5, 24)...

http://www.trinitytruth.org/paganoriginsofthetrinity.html

Just pointing out that people use the same techniques to claim Christianity is a copy of earlier pagan faiths with the messiah motif. Satan cannot create, only pervert and distort. Just something to think about.

 

[Infinityloop]

Ignatius, the great martyr bishop of Antioch and Melito of Sardis for two examples of pre-Nicean Christian references to the Trinity/deity of Jesus.

Ignatius didn't believe that Jesus and The Father where the same, he only believed Jesus was 'the son of God'.
Melito did teach deity of Jesus (like the Gnostics around the same time) but did not teach the Holy Spirit as part of anything, Melito believed like Jews believed - which the Holy Spirit was merely a phrase that meant 'presence of God'. Melito taught more of a duo-theism.

There in no Trinity in either example you gave.

 

[Artful Revealer]

It's all over the internet.

The Pagan Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
It would surprise many to know that the absolute beginnings of the three in one trinity doctrine goes right back to the Tower of Babel on the plain of Shinar by the River Euphrates many generations after the flood. At the time of the construction of Babylon at the Tower of Babel, mankind had multiplied and spoken one language. (Genesis 11:1-4) Cush who was the son of Ham and grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:1, 6), helped to plan with his son Nimrod, a way to rule the world through a wicked counterfeit religion. Nimrod was the originator of sun worship and founder of Babylon. The Targum says, “Nimrod became a mighty man of sin, a murderer of innocent men, and a rebel before the Lord.”

So the beginning of Nimrod's plan had its origin at Babel which was later known as Babylon. This city of Babylon with a tower “whose top may reach unto heaven” was built by Nimrod (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:4).

They called the tower “Babel, the gate to heaven,” but God called it “Babel, confusion,” and there God confused the language of the people which forced them to scatter. These people wanted one government to rule the world and one religion to sway the hearts of man. This was Satan's attempt to defy God and His authority, but God came down and stopped this rebellion in defiance of His command for mankind to replenish the earth (Genesis 9:1) by confusing their language. So they stopped building and were scattered to different parts of the world (Genesis 11:8-9).

Nimrod had a plan to strengthen his evil religious system and so he married his own mother Semiramis. She was the first deified queen of Babylon and Nimrod was the first deified king.

Nimrod's and Semiramis' followers plunged so deeply into the occult that they even sacrificed babies to Satan in their worship of him. This became a common practice until Shem who was one of Noah's three sons and the great uncle of Nimrod, in his anger and wrath killed Nimrod and cut him up into small pieces as an example to others to not commit such abominable sins.

Alexander Hislop in his book The Two Babylons said, “the Tower of Babel was actually the worship of Satan in the form of fire, the sun and the serpent. However, Satan worship could not be done openly because of the many who still believed in the true God of Noah. So a mystery religion began at Babel where Satan could be worshipped in secret.” — (Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, 2nd American ed.(Neptune, New Jersey: Loizeaux Brothers, 1959) 5, 24)...

http://www.trinitytruth.org/paganoriginsofthetrinity.html

No, every theory is all over the internet. Stop obfuscating and give the source of those images you posted. Don't let me read another 10 pages of nonsense.

 

[bible_student]

No, every theory is all over the internet. Stop obfuscating and give the source of those images you posted. Don't let me read another 10 pages of nonsense.

https://777denny.wordpress.com/category/nimrodtammuzsemiramis/

http://islamiat101.blogspot.com/2012/12/trinity-and-paganism.html

 

[Artful Revealer]

https://777denny.wordpress.com/category/nimrodtammuzsemiramis/

http://islamiat101.blogspot.com/2012/12/trinity-and-paganism.html

Two blogs without reference? Really? Where do these images come from?

 

[Robin]

Ignatius didn't believe that Jesus and The Father where the same, he only believed Jesus was 'the son of God'.

More than once Ignatius speaks of Jesus Christ as “our God.” See, for example, his epistle to the Ephesians, 18, and to the Romans, 3, in J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer, eds., The Apostolic Fathers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1984), 141 and 150

When writing to Polycarp he can exhort him to “await Him that is above every season, the Eternal, the Invisible, (who for our sake became visible!), the Impalpable, the Impassible, (who for our sake suffered!), who in all ways endured for our sake.”
-Polycarp 3, The Apostolic Fathers,161

Melito did teach deity of Jesus (like the Gnostics around the same time) but did not teach the Holy Spirit as part of anything, Melito believed like Jews believed - which the Holy Spirit was merely a phrase that meant 'presence of God'. Melito taught more of a duo-theism.

There in no Trinity in either example you gave.

But there is the acknowledgement of Christ's deity. Considering the Greek used to describe the Holy Spirit uses pronouns applicable to a person and not an impersonal force, it's understandable where that idea came about.

 

[bible_student]

Just pointing out that people use the same techniques to claim Christianity is a copy of earlier pagan faiths with the messiah motif. Satan cannot create, only pervert and distort. Just something to think about.

I read Scripture and it shows me clearly, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that there is no trinity.

 

[Robin]

I read Scripture and it shows me clearly, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that there is no trinity.

Someone else can read it and see differently.

 

[bible_student]

Also, that is not how etymology works.

But it can, if only you would want it to.

 

[bible_student]

Someone else can read it and see differently.

But they haven't researched and found the insertions that were perpetrated by desperate trinitarians, to make it seem as if there is a trinity, when there isn't.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Please stop doing that Robin, it's dishonest on your part.

You probably don't even realize you're doing it, but you're employing a logical fallacy (ad hominem).

You've called your opponents lunatics and scum. You call us dishonest while you deliberately avoid answering direct questions because you're afraid it will shake the foundations of your delusional belief. Yet here you are complaining about dishonesty and ad hominems.

You said "Christ is not God." You go on to say "Christ is the Lord of Lords." I show you Tanakh scripture (from YOUR king of king's bible) that says "God is Lord of Lords." Therefore, according to your authoritative scripture, Christ must be God. When pressed on this matter, you choose to ignore it.

You said there was no Gospel of Peter. I showed you the Gospel of Peter. You ignored it.

You said Peter was never in Rome. I showed you the Acts of Peter said otherwise. You ignored it.

You said Peter wasn't crucified upside down. I showed you the Acts of Peter said otherwise. You ignored it.

You claim the Pharisees fabricated man-made traditions that were in violation of the Law. I asked you which. You ignore it.

I asked you a direct question if a word could exist without a thought. You saw light shining through the crannies of your antitrinitarian prison and you closed your eyes and looked away.

Then you have the audacity to call others dishonest.

You must be the biggest hypocritical inflated ego I've seen in a long time. Bottom of the pit is where you're at.

 

[Robin]

But it can, if only you would want it to.

As someone who did etymology as an elective course in university this year . . . No, it's not.

But they haven't researched and found the insertions that were perpetrated by desperate trinitarians, to make it seem as if there is a trinity, when there isn't.

Which insertions? Everyone knows 1 John 5:7-8 was a late add-in. Which others are you referring to?

 

[A Freeman]

Athanasian Creed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

The Athanasian Creed, also known as Pseudo-Athanasian Creed or Quicunque Vult (also Quicumque Vult), is a Christian statement of belief focused on Trinitarian doctrine and Christology. The Latin name of the creed, Quicunque vult, is taken from the opening words, "Whosoever wishes". The creed has been used by Christian churches since the sixth century. It is the first creed in which the equality of the three persons of the Trinity is explicitly stated.

Origin[edit]

The Shield of the Trinity, a visual representation of the doctrine of the Trinity, derived from the Athanasian Creed.



The text of the Athanasian Creed is as follows:
English translation[16]

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

 

[Infinityloop]

More than once Ignatius speaks of Jesus Christ as “our God.” See, for example, his epistle to the Ephesians, 18, and to the Romans, 3, in J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer, eds., The Apostolic Fathers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1984), 141 and 150

When writing to Polycarp he can exhort him to “await Him that is above every season, the Eternal, the Invisible, (who for our sake became visible!), the Impalpable, the Impassible, (who for our sake suffered!), who in all ways endured for our sake.”
-Polycarp 3, The Apostolic Fathers,161


But there is the acknowledgement of Christ's deity. Considering the Greek used to describe the Holy Spirit uses pronouns applicable to a person and not an impersonal force, it's understandable where that idea came about.

You are having problems (like others) making distinctions between the Trinity and various heresies.
Calling Jesus a deity itself is certainly not the Trinity, the Trinity is a specific doctrine, other doctrines (like Sabellianism, Arianism, etc) are related to the same terms but mean other things.

You (and others) seem to want to favor anachronism over both properly representing your own doctrine and properly representing the beliefs of the founding fathers of the early church. This does not surprise me.

No, the 'Holy Spirit' is right there in the Old Testament and it's not a part of God, it's more a verb than a noun.