Red Heifer Birth Paves Way For Renewed Temple Service

[Serveto]

Notice how no one else will address that question, though. They just whine about fat Arik Sharon’s “storming” of the Mount twenty years ago, even though, if you watch videos of the event, it’s clear that the only thing Sharon could have stormed that day was the buffet at the Knesset.

Your wit, in this case, doesn't cover your deception, or, more charitably, your misperception. If you only have a de-contextualized, five minute memory when it comes to Israeli-Palestinian relations, I don't. You spoke as though you have some information concerning Israel's long-term goals in the region. As far as I know, Ariel Sharon was the last member of the Israeli ruling (military) class who, as I said, took a stroll (not "stormed," though he did have a retinue of well-armed Israeli guards in tow) on the Temple Mount. He'd already been at the buffet in the Knesset, many times, and had gravy spills on his tie.

What were his intentions when he visited the Temple Mount? I still want to know. Furthermore, moving forward now to Netanyahu, could you or any of your like-minded colleagues on this board provide a map of what this Biblical verse means in current, commonly understood geographical terms? At what point might we expect the "borders" of Israel to be finally fixed? Lastly, at what point might we also expect the USA, my country, to either stop or curtail providing military, diplomatic and financial cover for what sounds like an ultimately expansionist enterprise, "Eretz," or "Greater," Israel? As for your question, I don't speak for Muslims, primarily because I am not one, though you do, at times, seem to speak for Israel.

"Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be."
(Deut. 11:24)​

 

[Lisa]

Your wit, in this case, doesn't cover your deception, or, more charitably, your misperception.

Lol, I think his wit covered it succinctly.

 

[Serveto]

Lol, I think his wit covered it succinctly.

Such a surprise that you would. Can you provide a map of that Deuteronomy verse? What are Israel's ultimate borders, once fixed, in commonly understood, say Mapsquest, terms?

 

[Lisa]

Such a surprise that you would. Can you provide a map of that Deuteronomy verse? What are Israel's ultimate borders, once fixed, in commonly understood, say Mapsquest, terms?

No doubt, lol! Well, I’m no expert on the amount of land that they were given or how much, but from what I’ve read, they were given much less than the land that God said was theirs. They are on a tiny sliver of their land right now and the muslims/Arabs were given the rest.

 

[Serveto]

No doubt, lol! Well, I’m no expert on the amount of land that they were given or how much, but from what I’ve read, they were given much less than the land that God said was theirs. They are on a tiny sliver of their land right now and the muslims/Arabs were given the rest.

It's real simple: read the verse in Deuteronomy and create a map that somebody using Mapsquest can understand. I want to know Israel's ultimate, not current borders.

 

[Lisa]

It's real simple: read the verse in Deuteronomy and create a map that somebody using Mapsquest can understand. I want to know Israel's ultimate, not current borders.

I’ll turn it back over to @Thunderian, he probably knows it better than me..I just wanted to comment on what he said anyway. Have a good day Serve.

 

[Serveto]

I’ll turn it back over to @Thunderian, he probably knows it better than me..I just wanted to comment on what he said anyway. Have a good day Serve.

I enjoy his wit too, but would also like to better understand, in concrete terms, what the ultimate goals and aims in the region of Israel are, from all at times warring constituents and participants. Thanks, Lisa, and happy gardening. We are entering a splendid time of year, Fall!

 

[Lisa]

I enjoy his wit too, but would also like to better understand, in concrete terms, what the ultimate goals and aims in the region of Israel are, from all at times warring constituents and participants. Thanks, Lisa, and happy gardening. We are entering a splendid time of year, Fall!

The reader’s digest version of events to come...idk whether that’s what leaders in the world think is going to happen..

Zechariah‬ ‭12:1-3, 8-12‬ ‭
The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. T hus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.

In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, every family by itself.”​

‭‭
Thanks, my yard does look spectacular this year!

 

[Thunderian]

Israel wants peace, and have proven this by giving up land for the sake of it. If they had some nefarious plan to push everyone else out for the sake of “Eretz Israel”, wouldn’t they have held onto the Sinai and Gaza? Wouldn’t they have attacked their neighbors in wars of conquest by now? It’s been 70 years, for Pete’s sake!

The final borders of the nation of Israel won’t be in place until Jesus Christ is their king and sits on his throne in Jerusalem. Israel has shown no indication they plan to conquer the boundaries of the land Abraham was promised any time soon, or ever. They haven’t even taken possession of the Temple Mount.

 

[Serveto]

Israel wants peace, and have proven this by giving up land for the sake of it. If they had some nefarious plan to push everyone else out for the sake of “Eretz Israel”, wouldn’t they have held onto the Sinai and Gaza? Wouldn’t they have attacked their neighbors in wars of conquest by now? It’s been 70 years, for Pete’s sake!

The final borders of the nation of Israel won’t be in place until Jesus Christ is their king and sits on his throne in Jerusalem. Israel has shown no indication they plan to conquer the boundaries of the land Abraham was promised any time soon, or ever. They haven’t even taken possession of the Temple Mount.

I didn't say it was a nefarious plan, but it is a long-range plan, so 70 years is nothing for Pete's sake. Could you please provide my requested map? As well, what do you suggest the non-Jewish residents of Eretz Israel in the meantime do, move out, as many of what I assume are your Palestinian fellow Christians now in diaspora in the thousands, have done?

 

[Thunderian]

I didn't say it was a nefarious plan, but it is a long-range plan, so 70 years is nothing for Pete's sake. Could you please provide my requested map? As well, what do you suggest the non-Jewish residents of Eretz Israel in the meantime do, move out, as many of what I assume are your Palestinian fellow Christians now in diaspora in the thousands, have done?

If you’re looking for a map of the boundaries that God set for Israel, you should be able to find that in your Bible. As I said, these boundaries will not be in effect until Jesus Christ is ruling the earth. Anyone who has problems with his ruling on the matter can take it up with him at that time.

If you believe that Israel has designs on much more land than they have now, you should explain why they have given up land, and why they allow Muslims to set the rules for the Temple Mount. If the contention is that the Jews are eventually going to acquire the rest of the land they are supposed to be occupying, what do you suppose they’re waiting for?

 

[Serveto]

If you believe that Israel has designs on much more land than they have now, you should explain why they have given up land, and why they allow Muslims to set the rules for the Temple Mount. If the contention is that the Jews are eventually going to acquire the rest of the land they are supposed to be occupying, what do you suppose they’re waiting for?

It's not a question of what I believe. You confirmed, or seemed to, that the borders of Israel as stated in Deuteronomy are to be reestablished. The only difference, as I see it, between your position and the expansionist goals of, say, Gush Emunim (so called "settlers") and Israel's Shas Party, is that you say it's going to be brought about by Jesus, and they contend it will be via their as yet unnamed messiah. On the other hand, there might not be that much difference between their messiah and your Jesus after all.

 

[elsbet]

I didn't say it was a nefarious plan, but...

... it is implied.

As well, what do you suggest the non-Jewish residents of Eretz Israel in the meantime do, move out, as many of what I assume are your Palestinian fellow Christians now in diaspora in the thousands, have done?

They're Catholic and Orthodox. Very different. I'm more disturbed, however, by your lazy punctuation, than your talking point (however exhausting it may be, to rehash one of the many falsehoods for the Cause, rather than the actual one---> irrational hatred of Jews.)

 

[rainerann]

If catholic and orthodox people aren’t Christian than there was a whole thousand years or so where like no one was saved. I believe in Jesus but I find it difficult to swallow how difficult I have been seeing people imply it is to be saved. It’s not that difficult.

Catholics and orthodox Christians are Christians whether you choose to believe in their denominational specific doctrines or not. There are probably a lot of people who are also saved whether a lot of you think they are or not because it is not the complicated process of jumping through hoops like it is made to seem especially when someone is trying to use this as a way of implying that the Christians who lived in the land for the last 2000 years aren’t really Christians because they are really trying to imply that it belongs to the Jews and it doesn’t matter if they been there longer or not.

In addition to this, these orthodox and catholic Christians in the area are in many cases Jewish converts to Christianity because this was your only real option before there was a protestant movement to bless the world with the only population of real Christians that have ever existed since the apostles apparently.

A lot of Muslims in this area are also Jewish converts in many cases because remember the story goes that Muhammad came to this area, and the people didn’t have to leave the area when the Muslims came. Shlomo sand has said in his book the invention of the Jewish people that the Arabs didn’t migrate, the population increased because Jews converted to Islam. This is how the Muslim population increased in the area. The number of converts can’t be verified but it is a fact that people didn’t have to leave when the Muslims came and arabs didn’t have a mass migration to the area. So the number of Muslims is relevant to a ratio of converts along with people who came during the time of conquest.

So I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest that some people rethink this especially if they support Israel. The hypocrisy and double standards abound.

 

[rainerann]

I’m gonna go out on another limb and admit that a Christian Zionist is probably going to have more trouble accepting the idea that a Jew could convert to Islam, and I will already give my response to this in advance.

All you have to do is put yourself in someone else’s shoes and imagine if the year was 830 ad, and a monotheistic religion that really shares a lot in common with Judaism had become a primary authority over the area, and I had no real exposure to numerous historical references of liberation movements to study. It would be the only scenario that I think I would ever seriously consider Islam would be under these conditions.

It really isn’t all the much of a leap to imagine that many people voluntarily converted to Islam because they saw advantages to this during that time in history. Judaism and Islam have a lot in common. That is a reality.
Shlomo sand also suggests that in addition to the many similarities between the two faiths, there was an additional advantage in not having to pay the tax anymore. Many people legitimately could have converted because not having to pay the tax was an added benefit. It is not all that much of a leap if you really try to put yourself in someone else’s shoes.

It is unfortunate that the only history people accept of this area is the European version that dominates the cultures where they occupy. This is why it is important to listen to the Palestinian side because they are disadvantaged when it comes to using various mediums to tell their side of the story.

Blessed are the poor in spirit. It is amazing how many things Jesus said that Christian Zionists forget in their fervor to support Europeans trying to claim they are returning to anything that used to belong to them. Why do the Jews pass as white and blend in with other European countries again? Visual genetic similarities to other Europeans don’t lie...

These people “returning” descend from Jewish converts that became further and further separated from fellowship with people from their own nationality as time went on for many reasons. Prejudice in some cases and continued manipulation of Talmudic teachings suggesting that these converts should isolate their communities. Nevertheless, at one point they began as converts, which is why it is hard to tell the difference between them and other Europeans in many situations.

It is unfortunate that we so often debate illusions of watered down historical stories as though it were fact.

 

[Serveto]

They're Catholic and Orthodox. Very different.

Sects and sectarian controversies aside, thousands of Palestinian Christians are in diaspora. I'm not sure, but I don't think they have a "right of return," even if they so wanted.

I'm more disturbed, however, by your lazy punctuation, than your talking point (however exhausting it may be, to rehash one of the many falsehoods for the Cause, rather than the actual one---> irrational hatred of Jews.)

Criticism of grammar accepted. As for the "irrational hatred of Jews," I, for my part, seem to have none, but did inherit this fearful notion, in Sunday School, of somebody called the antichrist. I always understood he would require a Temple, a perfect red heifer and other accoutrements to reign. I figured as long as Muslims prevented the building of his house, or Temple, the better off I and others would be, because I read that he is going to wage war against the saints, and, to me, that could mean my dear and yes saintly Christian mom and plenty of my other less saintly Christian friends. I have, then, an irrational fear of the antichrist, but not of Jews as such, if it need be said.

 

[rainerann]

If Judaism was an ethnicity and not a religion that many people converted to at one point, they would all have similar features like how Chinese people are visually identifiable as Chinese by looking at them.

Look at various ethnic groups and compare it with this process people claim is restoring people together as one ethnic group and you can visually see that this is a blatant lie.

Take Africa for instance. You can’t say you’re black and have people take you seriously if you don’t look black. Consider what happens to these recognizable traits when a black person has a baby with someone from Ireland. Guess what, they no longer to look like they came from Africa anymore. They may have some traits that can be identified as descending from a African origin, but they don’t look like they came from Africa anymore.

Why isn’t there a common genetic look like the Chinese and Africans have if the Jews are an ethnic group, because they are not an ethnic group. They are a religion that many people from different nations converted to at one point. Not rocket science. Don’t need a reference check to verify what everyone is capable of seeing with their own two eyes.

So many delusions swirling around the universe right now.

Really there is nothing wrong with this though, but there is so much propaganda swirling around about Israel, the average Zionist is more than likely intimidated to embrace the reality that converts should return to Israel too according to their interpretation of prophecy that they share in support of Israel.

If the Jews are supposed to return to Israel, this would include converts. It wouldn’t matter if this is actually an accurate way of interpreting prophecy. It only matters if you are a Christian because the only reason a Christian could be duped to believe this is if you paint it with the ethnicity brush because clearly god would not show favor to Jewish converts after Christ has already come and died on the cross for them, but that’s not really how it works if you also really believe that the prophecy is saying the Jews should return. This would include converts according to the Old Testament, but then that would create more competition with the argument that Jesus is the messiah.

So everyone who supports Zionism is also basically supporting the removal of equality that scripture teaches between two believers in the lord whether they are two Jewish believers or two Christians believers because they are avoiding this discussion. There is no distinguishing between ethnic identity and converts as a Jew or a Christian in the old or the New Testament.

This reality reiterates the primary issue with modern day Zionism, which is the suggestion that there is some inherent difference between someone who is a Jew and someone who is not and the Bible does not ever say this. This was never the point in calling Abraham and anyone can become a Jew according to the Old Testament. They would just have to accept the god of Abraham and reject other gods. There is also the whole circumcision thing. It isn’t the easiest process, but it is not something that the Old Testament rejects pursuing either even if the idea seems to make people incredibly uncomfortable.

Just one of the many reasons I think god has to say to not be afraid in the Bible. People are fueled and filled with fear they deny and avoid and label as something else. There is nothing to be afraid of in admitting these people are converts, but I do think it becomes a threatening idea to a Christian in particular especially when deep down they are still struggling with their decision to be a Christian. Did they make the right decision if Jewish converts are returning according to prophecy?

It also becomes challenging to people who are trying to control the way people see Christianity because it creates competition for them in the numbers game. If converts can return according to prophecy, it is a strong possibility that more people are going to start wanting to convert to Judaism than Christianity and you can already see that happening in some respects. Judaism has become markedly more popular in the west with the creation of Israel. More people are converting to Judaism than they have in a long time and that number would probably increase if they were in included in the plans to return, which they are not excluded from according to the Old Testament.

 

[AspiringSoul]

If Judaism was an ethnicity and not a religion that many people converted to at one point, they would all have similar features like how Chinese people are visually identifiable as Chinese by looking at them.

Look at various ethnic groups and compare it with this process people claim is restoring people together as one ethnic group and you can visually see that this is a blatant lie.

Take Africa for instance. You can’t say you’re black and have people take you seriously if you don’t look black. Consider what happens to these recognizable traits when a black person has a baby with someone from Ireland. Guess what, they no longer to look like they came from Africa anymore. They may have some traits that can be identified as descending from a African origin, but they don’t look like they came from Africa anymore.

Why isn’t there a common genetic look like the Chinese and Africans have if the Jews are an ethnic group, because they are not an ethnic group. They are a religion that many people from different nations converted to at one point. Not rocket science. Don’t need a reference check to verify what everyone is capable of seeing with their own two eyes.

So many delusions swirling around the universe right now.

Really there is nothing wrong with this though, but there is so much propaganda swirling around about Israel, the average Zionist is more than likely intimidated to embrace the reality that converts should return to Israel too according to their interpretation of prophecy that they share in support of Israel.

If the Jews are supposed to return to Israel, this would include converts. It wouldn’t matter if this is actually an accurate way of interpreting prophecy. It only matters if you are a Christian because the only reason a Christian could be duped to believe this is if you paint it with the ethnicity brush because clearly god would not show favor to Jewish converts after Christ has already come and died on the cross for them, but that’s not really how it works if you also really believe that the prophecy is saying the Jews should return. This would include converts according to the Old Testament, but then that would create more competition with the argument that Jesus is the messiah.

So everyone who supports Zionism is also basically supporting the removal of equality that scripture teaches between two believers in the lord whether they are two Jewish believers or two Christians believers because they are avoiding this discussion. There is no distinguishing between ethnic identity and converts as a Jew or a Christian in the old or the New Testament.

This reality reiterates the primary issue with modern day Zionism, which is the suggestion that there is some inherent difference between someone who is a Jew and someone who is not and the Bible does not ever say this. This was never the point in calling Abraham and anyone can become a Jew according to the Old Testament. They would just have to accept the god of Abraham and reject other gods. There is also the whole circumcision thing. It isn’t the easiest process, but it is not something that the Old Testament rejects pursuing either even if the idea seems to make people incredibly uncomfortable.

Just one of the many reasons I think god has to say to not be afraid in the Bible. People are fueled and filled with fear they deny and avoid and label as something else. There is nothing to be afraid of in admitting these people are converts, but I do think it becomes a threatening idea to a Christian in particular especially when deep down they are still struggling with their decision to be a Christian. Did they make the right decision if Jewish converts are returning according to prophecy?

It also becomes challenging to people who are trying to control the way people see Christianity because it creates competition for them in the numbers game. If converts can return according to prophecy, it is a strong possibility that more people are going to start wanting to convert to Judaism than Christianity and you can already see that happening in some respects. Judaism has become markedly more popular in the west with the creation of Israel. More people are converting to Judaism than they have in a long time and that number would probably increase if they were in included in the plans to return, which they are not excluded from according to the Old Testament.

there are 3 primary types Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid. Jews/arabs, europeans, iranians, north indians etc are Caucasoid, Abraham was Caucasoid. American Indians were Mongoloid, they probably got to the America's crossing over from Siberia.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/06/closest-known-ancestor-today-s-native-americans-found-siberia
the Aboroginies of Australia are a mix of Negroid and Mongoloid. You have the dravidians of india who are negroid.

Jews (or more accurately Israelites) are an ethnic group the same way Celtics or Saxons or Slavs are ethnic groups. Obv along the way other people converted to judaism and mixed with them..but the end product is that they still have jewish blood in them. It's like descendants of Mohammad through his daughter...if one marries an outsider and has a kid, that kid is still regarded as a descendant..if that kid grows up to have a kid with another outsider, genetically it's still part of the race despite only having a fraction of his blood. Outsiders converting to judaism would not be considered jewish by jews..unless they married jews and their children continued the line. Ashkenazi jews are related to Palestians..and many people say ashkenazi's are khazar's.

 

[elsbet]

If catholic and orthodox people aren’t Christian than there was a whole thousand years or so where like no one was saved. I believe in Jesus but I find it difficult to swallow how difficult I have been seeing people imply it is to be saved.

Yeah, Orthodox and Catholic-- very different. They are not separate denominations.

Who said it was it was difficult to get saved, though? You didn't quote anyone, and I don't see a word about it on this page... or the previous one-- but I dont see the relevance here, apart from the drama.

It is also very presumptuous-- not everyone is a political 'Zionist.' The issue is greater than, and exists outside of current politics.

In addition to this, these orthodox and catholic Christians in the area are in many cases Jewish converts to Christianity before there was a protestant movement to bless the world with the only population of real Christians that have ever existed since the apostles apparently.

A lot of Muslims in this area are also Jewish converts in many cases because remember the story goes that Muhammad came to this area, and the people didn’t have to leave the area when the Muslims came. Shlomo sand has said in his book the invention of the Jewish people that the Arabs didn’t migrate, the population increased because Jews converted to Islam.

What are talking about? Did you find that information in the 'invention of the Jewish people' story?

 

[rainerann]

there are 3 primary types Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid. Jews/arabs, europeans, iranians, north indians etc are Caucasoid, Abraham was Caucasoid. American Indians were Mongoloid, they probably got to the America's crossing over from Siberia.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/06/closest-known-ancestor-today-s-native-americans-found-siberia
the Aboroginies of Australia are a mix of Negroid and Mongoloid. You have the dravidians of india who are negroid.

Jews (or more accurately Israelites) are an ethnic group the same way Celtics or Saxons or Slavs are ethnic groups. Obv along the way other people converted to judaism and mixed with them..but the end product is that they still have jewish blood in them. It's like descendants of Mohammad through his daughter...if one marries an outsider and has a kid, that kid is still regarded as a descendant..if that kid grows up to have a kid with another outsider, genetically it's still part of the race despite only having a fraction of his blood. Outsiders converting to judaism would not be considered jewish by jews..unless they married jews and their children continued the line. Ashkenazi jews are related to Palestians..and many people say ashkenazi's are khazar's.

There are several things in here that are modern inventions and have nothing to do with what the Bible says about choosing to believe in the God of Abraham and reject other Gods. There is no distinction between them. When foreigners are referenced in the Bible, this implies that they are not believers in the God of Abraham. What you are talking about is a modern interpretation based on a history of prejudice and the Talmud.

Judaism is a religion. Albeit, it is a religion that can be passed down and create a familial tradition and connection, but it is not an ethnicity in any way that is identifiable in the modern world. There is no way to compare the DNA of any person claiming to be Jewish with the DNA that would have created some sort of distinguishing feature as a result of being derived from Abraham, the way Chinese people develop a distinct look.

It is also not a secret that the Hasmoneans forced converts or that Herod was a notable convert, so the suggestion that conversion is centered on the theory of the Khazar experience is also limited as a means of recognizing the history of conversion within Judaism.

In addition to this, it is verifiable that Ashkenazi's Jews have no real connection to Israel. Here is an article about a man who took a DNA test that returned with a result of 100% Ashkenazi Jew. However, when you looked further back into the haplogroups.

And we still haven’t mentioned the haplogroup, paternal and maternal. As the report explains, “You descend from a long line of men [or women] that can be traced back to eastern Africa over 275,000 [for women, 150,000] years ago. These are the men [women] of your paternal [maternal] line, and your paternal [maternal] haplogroup sheds light on their story.”

This is said to be one of the most riveting areas in genetics. It allows us to trace our lineage directly back to our primeval forebears. If until now the report referred to Radu Tudor from Bucharest, I’m about to find out about my relations among prehistoric man. “Gideon,” the report says, “your maternal haplogroup is H1 ... and can reveal the path followed by the women of your maternal line.” Happy days. My female ancestors traveled north 18,000 years ago and reached Europe. Along the way, these ancestors passed through the deserts of Saudi Arabia – but, alas, never even approached the Land of Israel. Not for a moment. Can that be?

Hope remained from my father’s line; in his haplogroup, the picture is different. It’s the R-CTS6 group, says the report, “that traces back to a man who lived less than 6,000 years ago. That’s nearly 240.0 generations ago!” Duh. But again, astonishingly, there’s not a trace of the Land of Israel in my ancestors’ journeys in the past 275,000 years. They never saw it, not even through binoculars. It’s the definite end of my Zionism. My deep connection with the Land of Israel faded in an instant and became nonexistent..

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-gideon-levy-s-dna-test-reveals-the-truth-about-his-ancestors-link-to-israel-1.7279258

But like I was saying, suggesting that this matters is a modern invention and it is the foundation of what is wrong with the Zionist movement. It is not really one way or the other. If the prophecy is being correctly interpreted to say that Jews should return to Israel. This man should be included. The Old Testament makes no distinction between believers in the God of Abraham. It would only make a distinction between people because they believed in different Gods.

Obviously, when we look at the Old Testament, we are talking about a tribal situation where this wouldn't have happened as much. But during the time of Christ, this would not have been the case, and it is reasonable to assume that people could have, and were, encouraged to convert to Judaism because the Old Testament did not discourage it and the Talmud was not written down and worshipped yet. If we look at the history of the Hasmoneans, it is already possible to see conversion happening, which could be considered similar to what we are seeing today. There are a lot of people converting to Judaism in the modern world as a result of the creation of Israel so many people may have been considered Jews for over a thousand years even, but they still have no real historical connection to the land.