No regard...for the desire of women

[Lisa]

I approach things at a different angle to Red Sky. His strength is interacting with others like yourself to reach a common ground, understand each other etc. That requires remarkable diplomacy skills at times and he he consistently does a great job.

I disagree that it’s a strength..is Christianity supposed to find common ground to win converts? What common ground is there between light and darkness I wonder?

 

[Lisa]

Quick entry:
Theo Van Gogh, the man who directed a film exposing the lot of Muslim women was killed for it..
Warning : mature audience.
English with Dutch subtitles.

Outsiders to Islam can see that the film is true. I know most Muslims refuse to do that or they would find it difficult to remain a Muslim.

Manama, If Muhammad gave any commandments for penalties/ punishment to husbands who abused their wivex please show them.
Gentle scolding that you quoted above is extremely insufficent to counteract commandment to discipline disobedient wives I quoted earlier. I know you know that deep down.

Have you seen Geert’s film? And apparently now you have to share your age before you can watch it.

 

[Lisa]

I don't understand why are people making this about sleeping around and being sluts. Its common sense. Children are responsibility and with responsibilities, comes stress. Stress about your child's health, food, care, raising them, education and alot more. Obviously a person who doesn't have to take care of or worry about extra people in life would be happier than those who do.

No one in life is totally happy or carefree anyway...so it’s a lie to say that you will be without children. It’s not a bad thing to be married, having children and caring for someone other than yourself, in fact it’s very good!
Having children isn’t all about stress ya know. I believe having children makes women happier than being single. Women were made to have children and nurture them, that is their calling. I also think it’s their calling to want to be married as well and develop a relationship with a man. That’s a good thing too. But like anything, having God in it all makes it better, we can’t do things without God helping us.

 

[Robin]

Women were made to have children and nurture them, that is their calling. I also think it’s their calling to want to be married as well and develop a relationship with a man.

Not every woman is maternal or nurturing, nor does every woman have the desire to have children. Nor has every woman who has had children had her life bettered by it. And changing social mores are making it less and less desirable to want anything you just said women are called to.

 

[Lisa]

And changing social mores are making it less and less desirable to want anything you just said women are called to.

No doubt..

 

[manama]

No one in life is totally happy or carefree anyway...so it’s a lie to say that you will be without children. It’s not a bad thing to be married, having children and caring for someone other than yourself, in fact it’s very good!
Having children isn’t all about stress ya know. I believe having children makes women happier than being single. Women were made to have children and nurture them, that is their calling. I also think it’s their calling to want to be married as well and develop a relationship with a man. That’s a good thing too. But like anything, having God in it all makes it better, we can’t do things without God helping us.

Children are a responsibility and with that comes worry. You can't deny that. And not everyone wants kids, you're assuming that all women are the same and they all will be happy by having babies. You can be married and still not have kids. Less people to take care of means less people to worry about which means less stress. It's common logic.

 

[Lisa]

Children are a responsibility and with that comes worry. You can't deny that. And not everyone wants kids, you're assuming that all women are the same and they all will be happy by having babies. You can be married and still not have kids. Less people to take care of means less people to worry about which means less stress. It's common logic.

More love that makes up for everything else.

 

[manama]

More love that makes up for everything else.

Nobody cares. This is about stress in general. People who have less stress are happier. Common sense.

 

[Lisa]

Nobody cares. This is about stress in general. People who have less stress are happier. Common sense.

Lol! Who has less stress? Singles want to be in a relationship, people in relationships want better relationships...having kids is rewarding.

 

[manama]

Lol! Who has less stress? Singles want to be in a relationship, people in relationships want better relationships...having kids is rewarding.

You can be in a relationship and still not have kids. I know youre like 90 years old so it might be hard to grasp but a woman's life doesn't start and end at childbirth.

 

[Lisa]

You can be in a relationship and still not have kids. I know youre like 90 years old so it might be hard to grasp but a woman's life doesn't start and end at childbirth.

You are still a young self centered person..so...
No, I’m not 90, not even close. I didn’t say a woman’s life starts and ends in childbirth, but having kids is a rewarding experience that woman miss out on when they have an abortion or decide to not have kids.

Then there’s the aftermath of guilt over what you just did to an innocent life...that’s gotta be stressful too.

 

[manama]

You are still a young self centered person..so...
No, I’m not 90, not even close. I didn’t say a woman’s life starts and ends in childbirth, but having kids is a rewarding experience that woman miss out on when they have an abortion or decide to not have kids.

Then there’s the aftermath of guilt over what you just did to an innocent life...that’s gotta be stressful too.

Alright i'll be waiting for the study on how women who have kids are happier than women who don't.

 

[Lisa]

Alright i'll be waiting for the study on how women who have kids are happier than women who don't.

It’s a lot lonelier when you’re old when you don’t have kids and grandchildren..that only makes sense, don’t ya think? I remember my husband’s grandparents had all their friends but then the friends started dying off..they lived to their mid 90’s and were the only ones left of their circle of friends, then grandma died, but grandpa still had his kids around, and his grandkids. That’s a good thing, don’t ya think?

 

[Swiftturtle]

There will forever and always be different opinions regarding a woman’s modesty, role, & how each religion says to treat a woman. However, there remains only one ‘man’ that every single religion can’t escape acknowledging, and have no record of him being sinful. There are identical historical accounts from 4 different groups (normally, just 2 historical records from different cultures are considered astounding proof) bearing witness & confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion, resurrection, and returning to heaven. It’s the most documented historical moment ever. That’s who I choose to follow, and why the Biblical guidelines for harmony and balance between men & women are the ones I take to heart. Jesus was also the first one to change the status quo. Jesus taught that women weren’t ‘lesser than’ & should be cherished. Anyone can ‘say’ they’re sent by God, or their religion is the real one, but I always have to wonder how Jesus lived a perfect life, performed numerous miracles, was crucified and ascended to heaven, yet there are religions that take the word of a common man that was a sinner, didn’t do divine miracles, and died a regular, ordinary death, over the gospel of Christ. That goes for religious factions that infuse things that aren’t biblical, like the Pope. “Well, the pope said...well, the Dalai lama said...well, John Smith said...etc”. Who cares- they aren’t Jesus and never can/will be. I don’t care if someone leads the Vatican or delivers my mail: Jesus was God in the flesh. I’m sticking with the Bible

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

There will forever and always be different opinions regarding a woman’s modesty, role, & how each religion says to treat a woman. However, there remains only one ‘man’ that every single religion can’t escape acknowledging, and have no record of him being sinful. There are identical historical accounts from 4 different groups (normally, just 2 historical records from different cultures are considered astounding proof) bearing witness & confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion, resurrection, and returning to heaven. It’s the most documented historical moment ever. That’s who I choose to follow, and why the Biblical guidelines for harmony and balance between men & women are the ones I take to heart. Jesus was also the first one to change the status quo. Jesus taught that women weren’t ‘lesser than’ & should be cherished. Anyone can ‘say’ they’re sent by God, or their religion is the real one, but I always have to wonder how Jesus lived a perfect life, performed numerous miracles, was crucified and ascended to heaven, yet there are religions that take the word of a common man that was a sinner, didn’t do divine miracles, and died a regular, ordinary death, over the gospel of Christ. That goes for religious factions that infuse things that aren’t biblical, like the Pope. “Well, the pope said...well, the Dalai lama said...well, John Smith said...etc”. Who cares- they aren’t Jesus and never can/will be. I don’t care if someone leads the Vatican or delivers my mail: Jesus was God in the flesh. I’m sticking with the Bible

#that ^

 

[manama]

It’s a lot lonelier when you’re old when you don’t have kids and grandchildren..that only makes sense, don’t ya think? I remember my husband’s grandparents had all their friends but then the friends started dying off..they lived to their mid 90’s and were the only ones left of their circle of friends, then grandma died, but grandpa still had his kids around, and his grandkids. That’s a good thing, don’t ya think?

Most of us won't hit 90.

 

[Swiftturtle]

I don’t want to reach 90. Sitting around for 60 yrs so I can roll through the apocalypse in a wheelchair isn’t on my bucket list...anymore. When I hear ‘side effects may include a shortened life span’, I’m not mad about it.

 

[Lisa]

I don’t want to reach 90. Sitting around for 60 yrs so I can roll through the apocalypse in a wheelchair isn’t on my bucket list...anymore. When I hear ‘side effects may include a shortened life span’, I’m not mad about it.

I’m not sure what you mean about the side affects.

God does good work with older people, using them for His glory.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I disagree that it’s a strength..is Christianity supposed to find common ground to win converts? What common ground is there between light and darkness I wonder?

Just to say (and I don’t think I need to say too much here), in my own experience, I tune out people who come off as rude, graceless and shrill. I don’t buy from anyone who treats me like a number to make up their monthly sales total.

If people don’t know that you care, they won’t care what you know (or say for that matter).

If we present Christianity, but the only thing people remember is a high handed approach and a desire to belittle their ideas, even if you “win” some kind of argument in that spirit, they will run from you and in doing so associate the taste of bad fruit with Jesus.

I.e. Classic Pyrrhic victory*

*A Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/ (About this soundlisten) PIRR-ik) is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. Someone who wins a Pyrrhic victory has also taken a heavy toll that negates any true sense of achievement or damages long-term progress.

As regards correcting another Christian, might I remind you of the way scripture instructs you to do it?

Matthew 18:15-17 King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Therefore @Lisa - if you take issue with the way I relate to others, I suggest you follow this pattern in the way you address it.

 

[JoChris]

Despite what you think of yourself, you're the worst person when it comes to coming up with facts based arguments when it comes to religion. You're only second to Lisa. Its not "showing" the truth when the entire conversation has been about a completely different topic.

On laptop.
Personal attack as your first line defence is a very poor strategy to use. Whether you have a high or low opinion of me makes no difference. Your religion justifies the abuse of women. Every non-Muslim sees that.

The thread topic is on the treatment of women. Lisa's actual opening entry used Islam as an example of poor treatment of women justified by religion. https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/no-regard-for-the-desire-of-women.2320/#post-83878
The first entries disagreeing with Lisa were abusing the writer, not defending the religion.

You have been evading my question of "Did the women liberation in the west come because of Christianity?" for days by trying to change the topic. This isn't you being blunt, this is you being pathetic. So cut me the bs please, you aren't doing some great martyr work. Evading the original topic of conversation because you know the answer isn't in your favor is the same thing Dasciple did.

And then you go ahead and repost a video by Ayaan Hirsi, a woman openly exposed for being fraud. Something this forum has established years ago with you. Just because most people have moved on from the forums, doesn't mean we have forgotten the discussions. This is thunderian level tactics but unoriginality might run deep for you.

Talk about being "blunt" and "giving facts" when you can answer the damn question that started your initial reply.

I have a life, I live in a different time zone, I am not going to go back through every entry with a fine toothed comb, and I know you won't read the links that any Christian posts that show Christianity gave women rights that pagan women especially never had.

For the sake of others who might read them:
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/women-in-the-early-church/
https://www.michaeljkruger.com/was-early-christianity-hostile-to-women/

RE Ayaan Hirsi's lie to get citizenship - that was understandable in the circumstances but still a stupid thing for her to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali#Dutch_citizenship_controversy

Manama, If someone who resorts to lying as a shortcut to get their citizenship is enough to make you reject anything that individual says from that time onwards, do you apply the same standards for Muslims/ Islamic texts as well?