No regard...for the desire of women

JoChris

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I disagree that it’s a strength..is Christianity supposed to find common ground to win converts? What common ground is there between light and darkness I wonder?
Read full chapter for context. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=KJV

When Paul met with the Epicureans and the Stoics he started off on an area they had of interest.

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Paul stood where people were and addressed them with formal respect, used the "I perceive that" as well as blunt "you are..." That was diplomatic.
Paul telling them they were too superstitious was truthful.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

23 -Paul mentioned what they cared about. He did not bring up Jewish law or prophecies showing Jesus was the Messiah like he would have with the Jews. That was diplomatic.
Paul exposed they were ignorantly worshipping what they did not know and then proceeded in following verses to show them what they needed to know. That was truthful.

Paul was an incredible apologist in his ability to give the truth clearly and tactfully in exactly the right way to the group he was communicating with at the time.
 

Mr.Anderson

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Since I first saw this the theme of this thread I always tought that "no regard for the desire of women" meant that he wouldn't hear the play of women for their children, similar to what Jesus said back in the cross:

"Luke 23:28 (KJV) But Jesus turning unto them said,Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children."
 

Swiftturtle

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I’m not sure what you mean about the side affects.

God does good work with older people, using them for His glory.
“Go ahead and call it..”
“Sarcasm, TOD, 5:40pm, Aug. 16, 2019”

———
Side effects of some medications- but I’m kidding that I’m ok with those side effects..., and I spoke to my Gma for 2.5 hrs today, I like old ppl more than anyone. I adore kids for their (hopefully) uncorrupted wonderment and desire to learn. I am in awe of people my Gma’s age- the wisdom, stories with life lessons, they have no need to impress people, and truth reigns supreme. It’s the average attitude in the wide middle range, where worry & insecurity dominates daily life, that has a weird energy. Older people can be cranky (just like any other age), but in general, they’re hilarious. One of my Gma’s friends worked for homeland sec and the DOD. One time she had to mediate a disagreement between two undercover CIA guys. The night before she hurt her cornea, so she had a giant gauze circle over one eye. She got a green sharpie and drew an eye with eyelashes, and did the mediation as if nothing was weird. They weren’t allowed to laugh bc she was their superior and she took advantage of it
 

Swiftturtle

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I disagree that it’s a strength..is Christianity supposed to find common ground to win converts? What common ground is there between light and darkness I wonder?
ohhmy... the common ground is that we’re all sinners. Plain & simple. Common ground is different than compromising your beliefs. Common ground says ‘we’re all at the same starting point’. You can say ‘here’s what I believe and why’ and that isn’t compromising, it’s having a conversation. Also, light & darkness don’t have common ground bc that’s spiritual. The reason we recognize the light of Christ is bc His spirit is in us, the same way we can recognize the spirit of darkness in someone. ‘We’ aren’t the spirit, we’re the human, sinner, save by GRACE vessel. When we start taking on the light as if that makes us a ‘better’ sinner than a different sinner, that’s a problem. That attitude also makes ppl jump ship. The biggest hurdle for unbelievers that start to look into Jesus are often us Christians. When a Christian doesn’t view themselves as the vessel for God’s light and salvation, and instead views their ‘light’ as though they’re in a mutual handshake with Christ, the mistake of elevating oneself as ‘better than’ is dangerous and wrong. Also, in ministry, you have to meet ppl where THEY are, not where you are. You don’t expect a 5yr old to safely, and properly, cut an apple. You meet them at their level and help them do the part they can handle. We are all ‘as filthy rags’, the supernatural changes our life and purpose, but we’re still just humans w/o it
 

manama

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On laptop.
Personal attack as your first line defence is a very poor strategy to use. Whether you have a high or low opinion of me makes no difference. Your religion justifies the abuse of women. Every non-Muslim sees that.

The thread topic is on the treatment of women. Lisa's actual opening entry used Islam as an example of poor treatment of women justified by religion. https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/no-regard-for-the-desire-of-women.2320/#post-83878
The first entries disagreeing with Lisa were abusing the writer, not defending the religion.

I have a life, I live in a different time zone, I am not going to go back through every entry with a fine toothed comb, and I know you won't read the links that any Christian posts that show Christianity gave women rights that pagan women especially never had.

For the sake of others who might read them:
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/women-in-the-early-church/
https://www.michaeljkruger.com/was-early-christianity-hostile-to-women/

RE Ayaan Hirsi's lie to get citizenship - that was understandable in the circumstances but still a stupid thing for her to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali#Dutch_citizenship_controversy

Manama, If someone who resorts to lying as a shortcut to get their citizenship is enough to make you reject anything that individual says from that time onwards, do you apply the same standards for Muslims/ Islamic texts as well?
Still didn't answer the question but whatever makes you feel good about your religion.
 

Swiftturtle

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Still didn't answer the question but whatever makes you feel good about your religion.
Manama,
I really don’t mean this to sound aggressive, I know it’s impossible to ‘hear’ someone’s tone so we naturally give life to text responses in the voice we assume they’re being said- so I wanted to preface with that.

I’ve asked my Muslim cousin this question as well: Are you trying to convince yourself, us, or both that Islam is void of condoning abuse, control, and humanitarian injustices towards women? Yes, I realize that different sects interpret things with some variations- but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a part of the culture in many parts of the world. The differentiation I’ve noticed in the world is that Islam is the only religion that regularly has to address violence against women. A husband’s “right” to discipline his wife is constantly debated- but only around Islam. We don’t have constant debates about abuse & control of women in Christianity, and the Bible specifically addresses the way a husband & wife should respect and cherish each other. There’s not even a question of ‘if it’s ok’ in Christianity bc it explicitly isn’t- we’d call the police and get the family to a safe place, with the complete support of the church leaders. If the rules for women aren’t an issue in Islam; if the Quran or Hadiths were void of endorsing abuse; then why is it constantly brought up, debated, and a point of concern in different areas all around the world?
 

manama

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Manama,
I really don’t mean this to sound aggressive, I know it’s impossible to ‘hear’ someone’s tone so we naturally give life to text responses in the voice we assume they’re being said- so I wanted to preface with that.

I’ve asked my Muslim cousin this question as well: Are you trying to convince yourself, us, or both that Islam is void of condoning abuse, control, and humanitarian injustices towards women? Yes, I realize that different sects interpret things with some variations- but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a part of the culture in many parts of the world. The differentiation I’ve noticed in the world is that Islam is the only religion that regularly has to address violence against women. A husband’s “right” to discipline his wife is constantly debated- but only around Islam. We don’t have constant debates about abuse & control of women in Christianity, and the Bible specifically addresses the way a husband & wife should respect and cherish each other. There’s not even a question of ‘if it’s ok’ in Christianity bc it explicitly isn’t- we’d call the police and get the family to a safe place, with the complete support of the church leaders. If the rules for women aren’t an issue in Islam; if the Quran or Hadiths were void of endorsing abuse; then why is it constantly brought up, debated, and a point of concern in different areas all around the world?
Because people can not, actually no, REFUSE to believe Muslims when we say that culture isn't faith. It doesn't matter how millions time we explain the verses, it doesn't matter how many times we explain that frauds like Ayaan Hirsii came from villages in an already underdeveloped countries having shitty families and they refuse to put the blame on their families because its easier to use faith as a scapegoat.

The original point of the discussion was Dasciple talking about female freedom in the west. I specifically told him that while 1400 years ago, arab women found liberation and freedom by accepting Islam, the western freedom everyone loves to talk about came from rejecting Christianity. Now, JoChris is using every excuse to evade the question about whether Christianity brought women freedom in the west or not.

You don't have to debate about these things because in the west, there are laws. Religion doesn't have any major effect or power which automatically keeps you safe from fake religious leaders using faith for their own benefit. Ofcourse, there are many exceptions with cults and what not. We don't have that. We had wars, we were taken control of, we were enslaved and as a result we lost our identity. After oppression comes people trying to safeguard whats left and they take it to extreme. We are seeing that, religious leaders who make up hadith as they wish to exert their powers. But at the end of the day that is not Islam and the victim of that ARE Muslims. But rather than believing Muslims about it, you choose to go and project on them to pretend that your faith is better or that it has any influence on earth.
My problem with Christianity is not the teachings, its other factors such as contradictions and obvious things that don't match science and so on. But i have a problem with Christians who act like they are spreading the word of God but in reality are constantly evading questions asked to them while repeatedly asking questions already answered to them. That isn't preaching, that isn't bluntness if anything its downright pathetic and no wonder why they have no influence on earth.
We have to answer the same questions again and again because you keep asking them again and again no matter how much we explain it. It doesn't matter whether the only verse in Quran that people use to say "hurr durr abuse" is about the initial reaction to cheating and applies to BOTH the sexes because you only listen what you want to listen.
Because at the end of the day Christians can not accept that while Muslim women got rights and freedom thanks to their religion, Christianity kept women away from that very freedom. Current situation is different, the aftereffects of what US did is not Islam, its an excuse. Afghanistan was still a Muslim country when women openly had jobs, could wear whatever they wanted to and were free in every aspect.
 
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manama

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I answered your question as succinctly as possible.

Truth, not feelings is what really counts. Truth can hurt at first, but truth brings lasting healing for those who seek and accept the truth.
My question is that was the female freedom in the west brought about by Christianity? Don't use fancy words to get around it. It is a yes or no question.
 

JoChris

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Because people can not, actually no, REFUSE to believe Muslims when we say that culture isn't faith. It doesn't matter how millions time we explain the verses, it doesn't matter how many times we explain that frauds like Ayaan Hirsii came from villages in an already underdeveloped countries having shitty families and they refuse to put the blame on their families because its easier to use faith as a scapegoat.

The original point of the discussion was Dasciple talking about female freedom in the west. I specifically told him that while 1400 years ago, arab women found liberation and freedom by accepting Islam, the western freedom everyone loves to talk about came from rejecting Christianity. Now, JoChris is using every excuse to evade the question about whether Christianity brought women freedom in the west or not.

We have to answer the same questions again and again because you keep asking them again and again no matter how much we explain it. It doesn't matter whether the only verse in Quran that people use to say "hurr durr abuse" is about the initial reaction to cheating and applies to BOTH the sexes because you only listen what you want to listen.
Because at the end of the day Christians can not accept that while Muslim women got rights and freedom thanks to their religion, Christianity kept women away from that very freedom. Current situation is different, the aftereffects of what US did is not Islam, its an excuse. Afghanistan was still a Muslim country when women openly had jobs, could wear whatever they wanted to and were free in every aspect.
The biggest problem I have with your demand is that it is such a broad claim to address. If you make claims you should be prepared to defend them.

Where is some evidence to support your claim that Christian women had it it worse in 5-7th centuries AD, leading to women converting to Islam?
My question is that was the female freedom in the west brought about by Christianity? Don't use fancy words to get around it. It is a yes or no question.
Yes it was. Women in Christian nations over history ALWAYS had it better than non-Christian nations.
When Christianity deteriorated into Roman Catholicism, women's treatment got worse.
In post Reformation culture Protestant countries women got educated and better treated again.
The more truly Christian a nation is, life is better for women there.
 

manama

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The biggest problem I have with your demand is that it is such a broad claim to address. If you make claims you should be prepared to defend them.

Where is some evidence to support your claim that Christian women had it it worse in 5-7th centuries AD, leading to women converting to Islam?
They were being buried alive for being born, not just Christian, an entire region. Female infanticide is still a thing. Western women upto Victorian era couldn't have jobs, they werent educated, they did not have the right to vote and they couldn't get either abortions or divorce. But they have all those rights now that people love to brag about but is Christianity the reason? Yes or no? Is that liberation and freedom connected to Christianity?
 

manama

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Yes it was. Women in Christian nations over history ALWAYS had it better than non-Christian nations.
I'm not asking about 2000 years ago. I'm asking about the "current" freedom dasciple was talking about.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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As an aside, I think @manama will have insight into what it means for a woman to live in an Islamic country (but not necessarily every Islamic country) just as we in the west have an idea as to how much freedom women here have when we perceive it through our experiences.

The question splits off further to consider the source of ideas. It is thought that English Law and US Law owe their basic concepts to the laws of Moses as set out in the Bible. This may well be true but the picture becomes more complex as Case Law, jury decisions and precedent act to shift those legal systems in the direction “the people” wish.

I think it might be the same with Islamic perspectives of women. If a culture that historically treats women as property and with little respect takes on Islam it may “islamicise” it’s attitude to women by implementing heavy and restrictive rules upon them. Another country may tread more gently when it comes to the implementation of these codes.

As religious standards towards women are set out in both the Bible and the Qur’an it is perhaps best to look at the standards themselves and not at the good or bad application of those standards in particular cultural settings.

To do the latter would create a very long thread on how “we treat our women better than you do” yet tell us little about the ideas and standards from which that treatment proceeds.
 

JoChris

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They were being buried alive for being born, not just Christian, an entire region. Female infanticide is still a thing. Western women upto Victorian era couldn't have jobs, they werent educated, they did not have the right to vote and they couldn't get either abortions or divorce. But they have all those rights now that people love to brag about but is Christianity the reason? Yes or no? Is that liberation and freedom connected to Christianity?
You threw a lot of unrelated topics together in several sentences and then you expect an answer?

First sentence: female babies infanticide:
WHO was doing the infanticide?
WHEN was this occurring?
WHERE did this happen?
WHY did the murderers do that?

Female infanticide happens in all countries and cultures [post-Christian western countries gender selective abortion]; especially non-Christian ones like China and India who are now paying the price for that.

Women were educated in Protestant countries first, then later Catholic countries, then that spread further by Christian missionaries in countries like India and China.

It is Muslim countries where girls are killed for attending school, not Christian ones.

Christians don't generally support abortion or divorce because of our beliefs. Aren't Muslims against abortion and divorce too, unless in special circumstances?

Please stick to one topic at a time.
 

JoChris

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As an aside, I think @manama will have insight into what it means for a woman to live in an Islamic country (but not necessarily every Islamic country) just as we in the west have an idea as to how much freedom women here have when we perceive it through our experiences.

The question splits off further to consider the source of ideas. It is thought that English Law and US Law owe their basic concepts to the laws of Moses as set out in the Bible. This may well be true but the picture becomes more complex as Case Law, jury decisions and precedent act to shift those legal systems in the direction “the people” wish.

I think it might be the same with Islamic perspectives of women. If a culture that historically treats women as property and with little respect takes on Islam it may “islamicise” it’s attitude to women by implementing heavy and restrictive rules upon them. Another country may tread more gently when it comes to the implementation of these codes.

As religious standards towards women are set out in both the Bible and the Qur’an it is perhaps best to look at the standards themselves and not at the good or bad application of those standards in particular cultural settings.

To do the latter would create a very long thread on how “we treat our women better than you do” yet tell us little about the ideas and standards from which that treatment proceeds.
I agree, it is time to start a new thread on individual topics and keep on the topic.
 

manama

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As an aside, I think @manama will have insight into what it means for a woman to live in an Islamic country (but not necessarily every Islamic country) just as we in the west have an idea as to how much freedom women here have when we perceive it through our experiences.

The question splits off further to consider the source of ideas. It is thought that English Law and US Law owe their basic concepts to the laws of Moses as set out in the Bible. This may well be true but the picture becomes more complex as Case Law, jury decisions and precedent act to shift those legal systems in the direction “the people” wish.

I think it might be the same with Islamic perspectives of women. If a culture that historically treats women as property and with little respect takes on Islam it may “islamicise” it’s attitude to women by implementing heavy and restrictive rules upon them. Another country may tread more gently when it comes to the implementation of these codes.

As religious standards towards women are set out in both the Bible and the Qur’an it is perhaps best to look at the standards themselves and not at the good or bad application of those standards in particular cultural settings.

To do the latter would create a very long thread on how “we treat our women better than you do” yet tell us little about the ideas and standards from which that treatment proceeds.
However, I made it very clear I don't care about each religion's point of view. Dasciple mentioned western freedom while calling out Islam, I just asked whether that freedom has any connection to Christianity.

You threw a lot of unrelated topics together in several sentences and then you expect an answer?

First sentence: female babies infanticide:
WHO was doing the infanticide?
WHEN was this occurring?
WHERE did this happen?
WHY did the murderers do that?

Female infanticide happens in all countries and cultures [post-Christian western countries gender selective abortion]; especially non-Christian ones like China and India who are now paying the price for that.

Women were educated in Protestant countries first, then later Catholic countries, then that spread further by Christian missionaries in countries like India and China.

It is Muslim countries where girls are killed for attending school, not Christian ones.

Christians don't generally support abortion or divorce because of our beliefs. Aren't Muslims against abortion and divorce too, unless in special circumstances?

Please stick to one topic at a time.
And this evasion gives me an exact answer by still not talking about the actual question, not like I didn't know it before.


Feel free to start a new thread about it if you want to discuss it, but I won't be participating. Hard to consider Christianity to be a part of a movement where it has nothing to do with laws and nothing to do with half of the population and most of the said liberated women have never opened the bible or went to a church. I've said it before and i'll say it again, it was a question towards dasciple who jumped right out while others tried to barge in with "muh faith this and your faith dis".
 

JoChris

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I'm not asking about 2000 years ago. I'm asking about the "current" freedom dasciple was talking about.
Well that makes it clearer. I thought you meant from 1st century AD onwards and that was way too long to condense in a few sentences or paragraphs.
Clarification is needed for issues you are talking about. e.g. Which countries? USA is very different to other western countries in many ways. Evasion is dodging the topic and changing it entirely OR refusing to interact when Red Sky has kindly offered to start a thread for you to defend your faith.

I am seeking clarification to make sure you and everyone else is talking about the same topic.You can't just make wild generalisations, throw multiple issues together from different time periods and then claim - because I do try to be careful - that Christians can't answer you well enough.

It is up to you whether you choose to interact with Christians or not. I will continue to be on the blunt side and I will continue to try to be as fair as possible. One thing you have to admit is that I have not ever personally attacked one single individual on this forum (except when I "threw careful darts" at certain trolls several times).
 
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manama

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Well that makes it clearer. I thought you meant from 1st century AD onwards and that was way too long to condense in a few sentences or paragraphs.
Clarification is needed for issues you are talking about. e.g. Which countries? USA is very different to other western countries in many ways. Evasion is dodging the topic and changing it entirely OR refusing to interact when Red Sky has kindly offered to start a thread for you to defend your faith.
Clearly not. You'd have known that had you read before replying.
I will continue to be on the blunt side
Lol
 

Swiftturtle

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Because people can not, actually no, REFUSE to believe Muslims when we say that culture isn't faith. It doesn't matter how millions time we explain the verses, it doesn't matter how many times we explain that frauds like Ayaan Hirsii came from villages in an already underdeveloped countries having shitty families and they refuse to put the blame on their families because its easier to use faith as a scapegoat.

The original point of the discussion was Dasciple talking about female freedom in the west. I specifically told him that while 1400 years ago, arab women found liberation and freedom by accepting Islam, the western freedom everyone loves to talk about came from rejecting Christianity. Now, JoChris is using every excuse to evade the question about whether Christianity brought women freedom in the west or not.

You don't have to debate about these things because in the west, there are laws. Religion doesn't have any major effect or power which automatically keeps you safe from fake religious leaders using faith for their own benefit. Ofcourse, there are many exceptions with cults and what not. We don't have that. We had wars, we were taken control of, we were enslaved and as a result we lost our identity. After oppression comes people trying to safeguard whats left and they take it to extreme. We are seeing that, religious leaders who make up hadith as they wish to exert their powers. But at the end of the day that is not Islam and the victim of that ARE Muslims. But rather than believing Muslims about it, you choose to go and project on them to pretend that your faith is better or that it has any influence on earth.
My problem with Christianity is not the teachings, its other factors such as contradictions and obvious things that don't match science and so on. But i have a problem with Christians who act like they are spreading the word of God but in reality are constantly evading questions asked to them while repeatedly asking questions already answered to them. That isn't preaching, that isn't bluntness if anything its downright pathetic and no wonder why they have no influence on earth.
We have to answer the same questions again and again because you keep asking them again and again no matter how much we explain it. It doesn't matter whether the only verse in Quran that people use to say "hurr durr abuse" is about the initial reaction to cheating and applies to BOTH the sexes because you only listen what you want to listen.
Because at the end of the day Christians can not accept that while Muslim women got rights and freedom thanks to their religion, Christianity kept women away from that very freedom. Current situation is different, the aftereffects of what US did is not Islam, its an excuse. Afghanistan was still a Muslim country when women openly had jobs, could wear whatever they wanted to and were free in every aspect.
+++++
I’m going to try to go through this and address things in the order it’s written...so let’s try...

-I’ve heard from numerous Muslims that culture & Islam are essentially one in the same. So I’m baffled why you’re blaming Christians for being confused when we’re told it both ways...it sounds like some ‘cleanup on isle 4’ frustration that you have is misdirected. If one parent tells their child that bed time is at 8pm, and the other parent tells the child it’s at 7pm, the kid is going to expect the parents to work it out and tell him his bed time. The discrepancy regarding culture & Islam being intertwined sounds like an ‘in-house’ issue. Shouting at the neighbors does nothing.

-Christianity absolutely brings freedom- just look at the US. It was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, not founded on REJECTING Christianity, and we’re the freest country in the world. Ppl talk smack about the US *while* they’re trying to seek asylum from the destructive prison of their culture’s own doing from some Muslim sects. Also, Christianity is centuries older than Islam, so how would Islam be the OG of ‘freeing women’? Jesus Christ was the OG for women obtaining more freedom. I’m confused how you equate Islam with ‘freedom for women’ when you can simply turn on the news and see the opposite. You appear to have a misconception that boundaries/guidelines in Christianity are the opposite of freedom. Boundaries, a solid foundation, and a Christ centered family -where the husband & wife are equally important and treat one another as such- creates a safety net when we exercise our freedom, not a cage. If you have a solid foundation in Christ’s love, you have the support needed to have freedom. Rejecting Christianity doesn’t equal freedom, it just means you’re a slave to something in the secular world that has zero interest in protecting you or your spirit. With the shift in Christian households, we’re actually seeing LESS freedom than when there were higher numbers of Christians. They’re trying to censor speech, ppl are being trapped in depression & anxiety, women that embrace the unique qualities God gave us are being looked down on. Without God’s love & a firm foundation in Christ, there can’t be true freedom. There’s also a difference between destructive freedom, and love freedom.

-You seem really upset with how some Muslims are treating other Muslims. You keep saying lust for power and violence isn’t ‘true Islam’. A previously devout Muslim addresses that far better than I can:

-what contradictions are you referring to in the Bible? You are throwing out the statement without backing it up with citations. Also, what you deem as ‘contradictions’ may just seem that way bc they’re out of context.

-Again, vague reference alleging the Bible and science don’t align. Citations/proof?

-What questions are ppl refusing to answer? I gave you my answer about why Christianity provides freedom, but I don’t recall your responses to abuse of women in Islam, or why Islam is the only religion that is constantly having to address it/debate because it is so prevalent in numerous countries, especially if ‘abuse can come from a husband or a wife, and Islam gives you true freedom’. Why is abuse EVER ok?? Also, I’ve never heard of a single time where a Muslim man was pleading for his life from his abusive wife with a smashed up face.

-You’re clearly passionate about Islam, and have issues with Christians, as you stated above. You say something to the effect that Christians ‘think we’re better’? Personally, I don’t like the way most women are treated in Islam- I’ve seen far more instances where the wife was ‘owned’ than a wife afforded freedom. You also equate wearing common clothes, going to university, as ultimate freedom, but those are basic human rights in advanced countries.

Here’s the crux- a lot of people think religion is ridiculous, and that’s their prerogative. In Christianity, Jesus was a perfect, sinless man that died in our place bc we’re all sinners. It’s the only religion where the foundation of the faith is the most documented account in all of history, written down on numerous old scrolls that tell the exact same story of Jesus from Greek, to Hebrew, to even Pagan historical records. He was God in the flesh. We’re following Christ bc He loves us, and there’s not a single story of sin. There are plenty stories of love, grace, discipline, trust, and miracles. Again, the only religion with Jesus (the Trinity) as the foundation, and proof that He was God- I mean, even his bones aren’t here. He loved us enough to become flesh to preach the gospel. Every other religion worships pagan gods, self, or a religion started by some person that said ‘I’ve got it, I’ve figured it out’ and declared they were the real religion. I mean, what?? Muhammad copied a ton from the Bible, that’s why the beginning of the Quran is completely different than the end. He traveled and tried to tell Jews & Christians that he was a prophet sent by God, and they all said “yah...it’s a no from me- you’re some random guy walking around with a bootleg of our scriptures. He went back home and only convinced his family to follow him- then came the violence. Our faith teaches love, and sometimes love is tough love when God intervenes bc of absolute disobedience, but for the most part, they just wanted Muhammad to not chop their heads off. He taxed Christians & Jews or killed them. He went on the bloodiest, most depraved mission of conquering alllll land. He had 1/3(!!!) until the gates of Vienna on 9/11. Christians finally said “enough”. War is horrid, but Christians didn’t start it w/Muhammad. The man you hold in reverence is the opposite in every way of Jesus. Muhammad was a war lord, violent, and his favorite wife was an actual child. He performed no miracles, says all infidels must be killed, women are subservient, the Quran was piece-pulled together (at least the parts that weren’t ripped off from the Bible), and your leaders can’t even agree on numerous things by your own admission. Islam says you get paradise through works, *maybe*. It’s only ‘guaranteed’ if you die in the name of Islam (AGAIN w/the violence). The version of heaven in the Quran is lush plants, flowing water, being served, and getting a bunch of virgins. The most sacred place where God resides literally sounds like a resort in Florida. If you stepped back and really examined the shaky foundation, violence, and no signs whatsoever from heaven (a dream where he rode a donkey with zero witnesses does not a miracle make) yet he was supposedly some major prophet sent by God (you keep saying you don’t view your faith and your culture as one, so taking a step back to review it pragmatically shouldn’t be a problem) doesn’t add up in any way. If a man showed up in Australia with half the Bible saying he was a divine prophet and started chopping off heads bc ppl said ‘no thanks’ the entire world would think ‘what a psychopathic, violent, crazy person!’ For being some revolutionary prophet, he sure died the exact same way every single human will die. You are SO angry at Christians, well, it’s tough love time. I’m not going pander or pretend that there’s any confirmation of him being God’s prophet. You can worship who you choose, but the Quran is full of blood shed, war, a 6 yr old bride, having to ‘earn’ love, mayyyyybe going to heaven, zero miracles, & no signs from God that he was the divine prophet he claimed to be. You were born into Islam, yes? Can you ask questions, can you ask for proof? Do you have a choice when you pray towards that black box (black box represents Saturn in paganism- and Saturn was the ‘sun-god’, AKA Satan, heads up...there are pagan black boxes in numerous cities)? There are definitely peaceful Muslims, but Islam isn’t peaceful, and millions of people are carving their lives around what exactly? 1 guy that said he was God’s prophet, yet God sat that one out and never gave an ounce of divine confirmation, but millions stake their lives on the word of a war lord and don’t even question ‘what if....’. You’re right, I don’t get it. I usually leave this stuff be bc when someone comes in hot, they aren’t coming in to hear and absorb, they’re coming in with their mind completely made up. So, you can believe and follow Muhammad, but what that tells me is you’re taking the word of a p***phile war lord, with no signs from God that he was a prophet, as an absolute.
 

JoChris

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
6,168
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I’m going to try to go through this and address things in the order it’s written...so let’s try...

-I’ve heard from numerous Muslims that culture & Islam are essentially one in the same. So I’m baffled why you’re blaming Christians for being confused when we’re told it both ways...it sounds like some ‘cleanup on isle 4’ frustration that you have is misdirected. If one parent tells their child that bed time is at 8pm, and the other parent tells the child it’s at 7pm, the kid is going to expect the parents to work it out and tell him his bed time. The discrepancy regarding culture & Islam being intertwined sounds like an ‘in-house’ issue. Shouting at the neighbors does nothing.

-Christianity absolutely brings freedom- just look at the US. It was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, not founded on REJECTING Christianity, and we’re the freest country in the world. Ppl talk smack about the US *while* they’re trying to seek asylum from the destructive prison of their culture’s own doing from some Muslim sects. Also, Christianity is centuries older than Islam, so how would Islam be the OG of ‘freeing women’? Jesus Christ was the OG for women obtaining more freedom. I’m confused how you equate Islam with ‘freedom for women’ when you can simply turn on the news and see the opposite. You appear to have a misconception that boundaries/guidelines in Christianity are the opposite of freedom. Boundaries, a solid foundation, and a Christ centered family -where the husband & wife are equally important and treat one another as such- creates a safety net when we exercise our freedom, not a cage. If you have a solid foundation in Christ’s love, you have the support needed to have freedom. Rejecting Christianity doesn’t equal freedom, it just means you’re a slave to something in the secular world that has zero interest in protecting you or your spirit. With the shift in Christian households, we’re actually seeing LESS freedom than when there were higher numbers of Christians. They’re trying to censor speech, ppl are being trapped in depression & anxiety, women that embrace the unique qualities God gave us are being looked down on. Without God’s love & a firm foundation in Christ, there can’t be true freedom. There’s also a difference between destructive freedom, and love freedom.

-You seem really upset with how some Muslims are treating other Muslims. You keep saying lust for power and violence isn’t ‘true Islam’. A previously devout Muslim addresses that far better than I can:

-what contradictions are you referring to in the Bible? You are throwing out the statement without backing it up with citations. Also, what you deem as ‘contradictions’ may just seem that way bc they’re out of context.

-Again, vague reference alleging the Bible and science don’t align. Citations/proof?

-What questions are ppl refusing to answer? I gave you my answer about why Christianity provides freedom, but I don’t recall your responses to abuse of women in Islam, or why Islam is the only religion that is constantly having to address it/debate because it is so prevalent in numerous countries, especially if ‘abuse can come from a husband or a wife, and Islam gives you true freedom’. Why is abuse EVER ok?? Also, I’ve never heard of a single time where a Muslim man was pleading for his life from his abusive wife with a smashed up face.

-You’re clearly passionate about Islam, and have issues with Christians, as you stated above. You say something to the effect that Christians ‘think we’re better’? Personally, I don’t like the way most women are treated in Islam- I’ve seen far more instances where the wife was ‘owned’ than a wife afforded freedom. You also equate wearing common clothes, going to university, as ultimate freedom, but those are basic human rights in advanced countries.

Here’s the crux- a lot of people think religion is ridiculous, and that’s their prerogative. In Christianity, Jesus was a perfect, sinless man that died in our place bc we’re all sinners. It’s the only religion where the foundation of the faith is the most documented account in all of history, written down on numerous old scrolls that tell the exact same story of Jesus from Greek, to Hebrew, to even Pagan historical records. He was God in the flesh. We’re following Christ bc He loves us, and there’s not a single story of sin. There are plenty stories of love, grace, discipline, trust, and miracles. Again, the only religion with Jesus (the Trinity) as the foundation, and proof that He was God- I mean, even his bones aren’t here. He loved us enough to become flesh to preach the gospel. Every other religion worships pagan gods, self, or a religion started by some person that said ‘I’ve got it, I’ve figured it out’ and declared they were the real religion. I mean, what?? Muhammad copied a ton from the Bible, that’s why the beginning of the Quran is completely different than the end. He traveled and tried to tell Jews & Christians that he was a prophet sent by God, and they all said “yah...it’s a no from me- you’re some random guy walking around with a bootleg of our scriptures. He went back home and only convinced his family to follow him- then came the violence. Our faith teaches love, and sometimes love is tough love when God intervenes bc of absolute disobedience, but for the most part, they just wanted Muhammad to not chop their heads off. He taxed Christians & Jews or killed them. He went on the bloodiest, most depraved mission of conquering alllll land. He had 1/3(!!!) until the gates of Vienna on 9/11. Christians finally said “enough”. War is horrid, but Christians didn’t start it w/Muhammad. The man you hold in reverence is the opposite in every way of Jesus. Muhammad was a war lord, violent, and his favorite wife was an actual child. He performed no miracles, says all infidels must be killed, women are subservient, the Quran was piece-pulled together (at least the parts that weren’t ripped off from the Bible), and your leaders can’t even agree on numerous things by your own admission. Islam says you get paradise through works, *maybe*. It’s only ‘guaranteed’ if you die in the name of Islam (AGAIN w/the violence). The version of heaven in the Quran is lush plants, flowing water, being served, and getting a bunch of virgins. The most sacred place where God resides literally sounds like a resort in Florida. If you stepped back and really examined the shaky foundation, violence, and no signs whatsoever from heaven (a dream where he rode a donkey with zero witnesses does not a miracle make) yet he was supposedly some major prophet sent by God (you keep saying you don’t view your faith and your culture as one, so taking a step back to review it pragmatically shouldn’t be a problem) doesn’t add up in any way. If a man showed up in Australia with half the Bible saying he was a divine prophet and started chopping off heads bc ppl said ‘no thanks’ the entire world would think ‘what a psychopathic, violent, crazy person!’ For being some revolutionary prophet, he sure died the exact same way every single human will die. You are SO angry at Christians, well, it’s tough love time. I’m not going pander or pretend that there’s any confirmation of him being God’s prophet. You can worship who you choose, but the Quran is full of blood shed, war, a 6 yr old bride, having to ‘earn’ love, mayyyyybe going to heaven, zero miracles, & no signs from God that he was the divine prophet he claimed to be. You were born into Islam, yes? Can you ask questions, can you ask for proof? Do you have a choice when you pray towards that black box (black box represents Saturn in paganism- and Saturn was the ‘sun-god’, AKA Satan, heads up...there are pagan black boxes in numerous cities)? There are definitely peaceful Muslims, but Islam isn’t peaceful, and millions of people are carving their lives around what exactly? 1 guy that said he was God’s prophet, yet God sat that one out and never gave an ounce of divine confirmation, but millions stake their lives on the word of a war lord and don’t even question ‘what if....’. You’re right, I don’t get it. I usually leave this stuff be bc when someone comes in hot, they aren’t coming in to hear and absorb, they’re coming in with their mind completely made up. So, you can believe and follow Muhammad, but what that tells me is you’re taking the word of a p***phile war lord, with no signs from God that he was a prophet, as an absolute.
Are you a fan of acts 17 Apologetics too? https://www.youtube.com/user/Acts17Apologetics/playlists?disable_polymer=1
 
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