No regard...for the desire of women

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to be fair... that needs to be qualified with "if your a man"
To be fair I have no idea what the argument against polyamory is. I'm pretty sure I've never read that its prohibited and most people who say its forbidden is because if a woman gets pregnant she wouldn't know who the father is. And that excuse doesn't really work since DNA testing is a thing.
It could totally be another case of a man made rule to control women like "Muslim women can only marry Muslim men" which had nothing to do Islam. But I don't know in detail about why polyamory isn't a thing and I won't pretend to know but i won't call it islamic unless i actually read WHERE is islam does it say its forbidden.

But either way, people can't keep saying that Islam pushes the concept of multiple wives when all Islam does is give rules and a limit. Neither of which exist in Christianity.
 





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After looking it up a little I still can not find where it says that polyandry is forbidden and the "Reasons" people are giving don't really work. Wouldn't know who the father is? DNA testing is a thing. Someone even said that its because of STDs which is so stupid as if stds can't exist in other cases. If someone could show me the source where its clearly forbidden or a good reason, i'd appreciate it.
 





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it is my understanding that in all religions where men are allowed multiple wives that privilage is not exteded to women as well which imo creates an imbalanced power differential

now im open to being corrected but ive never heard of a muslim (or mormon etc) woman being allowed multiple husbands.

and yes the reason in the past was to protect inheritance rights but as you said that is no longer valid.
 





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Neither does Islam. It only says that the limit is four and if you decide to have multiple wives and you aren't just to them or fulfill their rights, hell is waiting for you. It gives proper rules to follow if you decide to marry multiple people.

Christianity doesn't forbid marrying multiple women and i'm pretty sure it gives no limits. Atleast Islam is realistic and gives guidelines. Polygamous relationships have existed since ancient times and they exist now between people who aren't even religious. Pretending that they don't exist outside of Muslim communities is just plain ignorance.

Falling in love with more than one person is normal and not a sin. But most people pursue it as cheating. Islam tells us not to do that, to be transparent and if you want to pursue it, you can do so legally and rightfully with the consent of all parties involved.
that claim of yours is completely false and you know that.
Nowhere in the New Testament are Christians told they are permitted/ commanded to have an additional wife/husband.
The life stories of the men in the OLD Testament who had multiple wives are given as a warning story to readers, not an endorsement of the practice.

In the rest of your entry you are word-gaming to justify sin just like your self-proclaimed prophet.
A true believer in God seeks to please God, not fulfill their lusts.
Too bad if "everyone else does it", including so-called Christians committing adultery. Your distraction tactics don't fool anybody.
 





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Yes, don't know why you think she'd agree with you lol



Whats with you all looking at only half the thing and ignoring the rest. Aspiringsoul or anyone else could probably answer this better than me but in this context, the man raised his hand at the woman? Woman wants divorce and go back to her ex? So Prophet said, you can marry someone you divorced before only if you actually consumated your marriage with your current husband and she did? So she is clearly permitted to divorce him and marry the one she wants to marry? Am i missing something?


Again bringing up the verse everyone brings up and we have answered every single time.
The actual text, men are superior to women refers to in strength which is the reason why men are mostly working to get money while the women take care of the house (not always ofcourse, women had jobs in hijaz). And it says that if the husband is making that sacrifice for the wife then its her job to take care of his property and not cheat on him while the rest of the verse again mostly applies to cheating. Whats wrong here?
You are avoiding facing the clear commandment from Muhammad himself again. How come you won't quote your own religion's text?

Quran, Surah An-Nisa 4:34

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scourge
Definition of scourge
(Entry 1 of 2)

1: WHIP especially : one used to inflict pain or punishment2: an instrument of punishment or criticism3: a cause of wide or great affliction
scourge

verb
scourged; scourging

Definition of scourge (Entry 2 of 2)

transitive verb

1: FLOG, WHIP a: to punish severely : AFFLICT : to drive as if by blows of a whip: CHASTISE

Muslim women should thank their god if their husbands do not obey their "prophet" Muhammad's clear commandment.

I know this is an uncomfortable topic for Muslims because commandments like this show Muhammad to be an immoral, violent man using the name of God to justify his cruelty.
Men become animals and women become punching bags IF Muslims truly obey the Quran ***literally***.
 





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...But either way, people can't keep saying that Islam pushes the concept of multiple wives when all Islam does is give rules and a limit. Neither of which exist in Christianity.
Genesis 2

In the beginning...

21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Ephesians 5

Marriage—Christ and the Church

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

What struck me was the extent to which these two sides of the marriage go against modern norms. How many wives “submit” to their husbands, how many husbands lay down their lives and honour their wives? What would our homes and lives look like if families took the”Ephesians challenge” and dropped our defence mechanisms against each other in vulnerability and love?

It seems to me that the Lord invites couples to play the trust game, where you take each other’s hand, stand toe to toe and lean back. In doing so we learn about each other, ourselves and our saviour.
 





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DevaWolf

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4 wives and as many sex slaves that he wants?
How is that different from 85 wives or more, who have been recorded to be forced to participate in orgies with Jeffs?

And you're not answering my post. The comparison is legit, yet you choose to only go on about Islam which makes no sense.
 





Lisa

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How is that different from 85 wives or more, who have been recorded to be forced to participate in orgies with Jeffs?

And you're not answering my post. The comparison is legit, yet you choose to only go on about Islam which makes no sense.
I know more about islam then the other things you are talking about and can’t really argue for or against them. And I would say that islam has many more victims and is actively pursuing more victims. It is more well known all over the world with over 2 billion Muslims worldwide.
 





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Non of the religious texts are very good in understandi history, and are only good at understanding human history an morality from scientific role, to see how religion effected civilisations and human progress.

Women being helpmates, staying home and Caring for children is, by and large a very modern thing.
Since civilisations became a thing and people started societies, very body worked, women yes had roles but they were still within a workforce, they did not stay home and care for children and followed the husband like a lesser being, in fact seeing children as something to nurture until adulthood is newer than the idea of a housewife.
Everybody worked, as soon as you could walk you were given a role to play, in an isn't times yes the higher classes would send boys to study but everyone else worked.
When societies moved away from ancient times and worked in a more Judeo-Christian society, women and children still worked in the farms, there are plenty of documentations, reports and art dwpo ting women working the fields, tending to animals and selling wares. Same with children.
When the industrial revolution happened, people moved to cities and women took new jobs, working in mills, mines and factories, they still sold goods and some still worked farms.
It was not until queen victoria when the idea of the housewife came about due to her and Alberta idea of the family, but then it was only middle and upper classes who had a woman who stayed home while the husband worked, and still then they had nannies and chefs to cook, usually women of lower classes.
This changed during the first world war when women started working, taking over men's jobs and then women decided they wanted the freedom to work and earn their own money.
It was not until the 1950s, when people tired and fed up from ww2 that EY looked at their grandparents era of dutiful house wives and working husbands, did the idea of housewives return and it did not last long as it's not sustainable and many women wanted more.

Regarding clothes until the Judeo-Christian religions, nakedness was seen as normal, people bathed together, fought naked, did sports naked.
In fact the rise of Judeo-Christian religions caused a decline in human health and life spans, before the rise of these religions, people would baths and understand health enough to survive, but due to Judeo-Christian religions obsession with sin, sex,morality and sexuality. Life spans fell and disease became more prevalent.
Theres a reason we called it the dark ages, not just because people did not document as much.
People would catch diseases more due to the obsession of never being naked, as people bathed less and caught infections more due to the body being viewed as bad.

So religion especially any of the Judeo-Christian religions set humanity back.
Why o seas about the human body, it's just skin, especially female bodies.
Also the obsession with sex, it's been proven time and time again, places that have sex education, contraceptives and abortions, have less teen pregnancy, STD issues and yes less abortions than places that have abstinence only education, ban abortions and keep sex an contracptive as a taboo.

why are people obsessed with what others do with their genitals, it's just sex, a natural occurrence, and children yes feel sexually, it's human nature but parents should teach them why hey feel like that not tell them off. The. We have less messed up people.

think of frollo in Notre dam, he was obsessed with his sexual desires and was so fearful of natural feelings he killed thousands, he should of just rubbed one off. Yes it's a cartoon but it fits with so many religious people like priests, perhaps they would not of abused so many children if they were taught how sex and mastibation is normal and healthy instead of sinful
 





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that claim of yours is completely false and you know that.
Nowhere in the New Testament are Christians told they are permitted/ commanded to have an additional wife/husband.
The life stories of the men in the OLD Testament who had multiple wives are given as a warning story to readers, not an endorsement of the practice.

In the rest of your entry you are word-gaming to justify sin just like your self-proclaimed prophet.
A true believer in God seeks to please God, not fulfill their lusts.
Too bad if "everyone else does it", including so-called Christians committing adultery. Your distraction tactics don't fool anybody.
Where does it forbid Christians to have more than one wives? Because if it's not forbidden it's not a sin.
Genesis 2

In the beginning...

21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Ephesians 5

Marriage—Christ and the Church

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

What struck me was the extent to which these two sides of the marriage go against modern norms. How many wives “submit” to their husbands, how many husbands lay down their lives and honour their wives? What would our homes and lives look like if families took the”Ephesians challenge” and dropped our defence mechanisms against each other in vulnerability and love?

It seems to me that the Lord invites couples to play the trust game, where you take each other’s hand, stand toe to toe and lean back. In doing so we learn about each other, ourselves and our saviour.
Again it does not forbid the practice though.

You are avoiding facing the clear commandment from Muhammad himself again. How come you won't quote your own religion's text?

Quran, Surah An-Nisa 4:34

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scourge
Definition of scourge
(Entry 1 of 2)

1: WHIP especially : one used to inflict pain or punishment2: an instrument of punishment or criticism3: a cause of wide or great affliction
scourge

verb
scourged; scourging

Definition of scourge (Entry 2 of 2)

transitive verb

1: FLOG, WHIP a: to punish severely : AFFLICT : to drive as if by blows of a whip: CHASTISE

Muslim women should thank their god if their husbands do not obey their "prophet" Muhammad's clear commandment.

I know this is an uncomfortable topic for Muslims because commandments like this show Muhammad to be an immoral, violent man using the name of God to justify his cruelty.
Men become animals and women become punching bags IF Muslims truly obey the Quran ***literally***.
For some reason us answering the same verse for years doesn't work because either you guys have bad memory or you can't find something new.

Aisha reported: "The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, did not strike a servant or a woman, and he never struck anything with his hand."


Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
"Whoever strikes someone will receive retribution for it on the Day of Resurrection."


Abdullah bin Zam’ah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
"How does one of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace her?"


Iyas ibn Abdullah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
"Many women have come to the family of Muhammad complaining about their husbands hitting them. These men are not the best among you."


We aren't blindly following this faith. If we were, then we too would have contradictions we'd be ignoring. Or scientific facts we'd call fake just because the scripture said something else.
 





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Where does it forbid Christians to have more than one wives? Because if it's not forbidden it's not a sin.
Again it does not forbid the practice though.


For some reason us answering the same verse for years doesn't work because either you guys have bad memory or you can't find something new.

Aisha reported: "The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, did not strike a servant or a woman, and he never struck anything with his hand."


Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
"Whoever strikes someone will receive retribution for it on the Day of Resurrection."


Abdullah bin Zam’ah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
"How does one of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace her?"


Iyas ibn Abdullah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
"Many women have come to the family of Muhammad complaining about their husbands hitting them. These men are not the best among you."


We aren't blindly following this faith. If we were, then we too would have contradictions we'd be ignoring. Or scientific facts we'd call fake just because the scripture said something else.
@manama - I think these verses indicate an ideal standard for Church leadership having leaders who are husbands of one wife.

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"
1 Timothy 3:2, KJV


"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."
1 Timothy 3:12, KJV


"If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly."
Titus 1:6, KJV

My question, without even labelling polygamy as a sin is - what about the jealousy?

On a wider point...

I think it is sometimes the unspoken rule of “inter-religious” dialogue to attempt to score points against one another rather than explore points of difference. Would I love to win a Muslim over to Christianity? Of course! On the other hand, do I believe that if I wear a Muslim down with argument, that they will come round to a new view - I doubt it!

The Muslims I know who have had a transformation of faith have often had something happen to specifically change their view of who Jesus is, for example, in Iran where very few Christians get through...
 





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@manama - I think these verses indicate an ideal standard for Church leadership having leaders who are husbands of one wife.

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"
1 Timothy 3:2, KJV


"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."
1 Timothy 3:12, KJV


"If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly."
Titus 1:6, KJV

My question, without even labelling polygamy as a sin is - what about the jealousy?

On a wider point...

I think it is sometimes the unspoken rule of “inter-religious” dialogue to attempt to score points against one another rather than explore points of difference. Would I love to win a Muslim over to Christianity? Of course! On the other hand, do I believe that if I wear a Muslim down with argument, that they will come round to a new view - I doubt it!

The Muslims I know who have had a transformation of faith have often had something happen to specifically change their view of who Jesus is, for example, in Iran where very few Christians get through...
But that isn't the same now is it? in Islam we have strict regulations when it comes to second marriage, it says that do not marry more than one if there is no reason or you fear that you can't be just. At the same time if you cant be good, you shouldnt even marry the first one. Islam refers to husband-wife being each others veil, guardian of each other's secrets, protection and so on. Its one of the most beautiful things i've read when it comes to the concept of marriage. At the same time its realistic, wars happen, people cheat and what not.

I just don't believe in the "I saw Jesus" type of testimonies or reason for conversion. In Quran, God makes it clear that if we wanted to send everyone to heaven or give everyone guidance, He wouldve just sent angels as his messengers and revealed everything but then it wouldn't have been a test. And thats why He sent to us, messengers, from among us humans. This to me makes alot of sense.
 





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But that isn't the same now is it? in Islam we have strict regulations when it comes to second marriage, it says that do not marry more than one if there is no reason or you fear that you can't be just. At the same time if you cant be good, you shouldnt even marry the first one. Islam refers to husband-wife being each others veil, guardian of each other's secrets, protection and so on. Its one of the most beautiful things i've read when it comes to the concept of marriage. At the same time its realistic, wars happen, people cheat and what not.

I just don't believe in the "I saw Jesus" type of testimonies or reason for conversion. In Quran, God makes it clear that if we wanted to send everyone to heaven or give everyone guidance, He wouldve just sent angels as his messengers and revealed everything but then it wouldn't have been a test. And thats why He sent to us, messengers, from among us humans. This to me makes alot of sense.
I have had enough conversations with Muslims to have a fairly good understanding of how they see things...

If I had grown up in an Islamic country and had been given a particular impression of the Bible, Christians and Jesus Himself, I might well have all kinds of issues, objections and maybe even old offences from exchanges with Christians.

Whilst I would like to say something really persuasive and meaningful, I have no illusions about my own intelligence or significance.

I think if God wishes you to reconsider Jesus, and you are in a place at some point (perhaps to to events in the world or your own life) when you want to, He will meet you where you are, in an unmistakable way that connects with you.

I hope you don’t feel I have been rude in saying what I have.
 





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I have had enough conversations with Muslims to have a fairly good understanding of how they see things...

If I had grown up in an Islamic country and had been given a particular impression of the Bible, Christians and Jesus Himself, I might well have all kinds of issues, objections and maybe even old offences from exchanges with Christians.

Whilst I would like to say something really persuasive and meaningful, I have no illusions about my own intelligence or significance.

I think if God wishes you to reconsider Jesus, and you are in a place at some point (perhaps to to events in the world or your own life) when you want to, He will meet you where you are, in an unmistakable way that connects with you.

I hope you don’t feel I have been rude in saying what I have.
Every Christian I have met irl have been super devout amazing people. Its always the western ones who talk about it while either not following it or pretending that everyone else does. Like someone here, totally not JoChris who has been evading my question of whether the western liberation of women came because of Christianity. If my real life interactions regarding Christianity were with people who resembled people on this forum, i wouldn't have had a nice impression.

I just don't agree with the seeing Jesus thing. What was the point of creating earth and the concept of good and evil and virtue and sin if "god" was going to show himself anyway? And this is why i prefer the logical testimonies over these ones. I'd prefer a good argument about why a certain religion didn't work out for them over "i saw Jesus". Its the same with Muslims who become Hindus. "I saw Krishna" or "I saw this god".
If Jesus is really meeting people left and right, whats to say the Hindu gods are not. Why would I believe in one and not the other?
 





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Every Christian I have met irl have been super devout amazing people. Its always the western ones who talk about it while either not following it or pretending that everyone else does. Like someone here, totally not JoChris who has been evading my question of whether the western liberation of women came because of Christianity. If my real life interactions regarding Christianity were with people who resembled people on this forum, i wouldn't have had a nice impression.

I just don't agree with the seeing Jesus thing. What was the point of creating earth and the concept of good and evil and virtue and sin if "god" was going to show himself anyway? And this is why i prefer the logical testimonies over these ones. I'd prefer a good argument about why a certain religion didn't work out for them over "i saw Jesus". Its the same with Muslims who become Hindus. "I saw Krishna" or "I saw this god".
If Jesus is really meeting people left and right, whats to say the Hindu gods are not. Why would I believe in one and not the other?
I don’t think it is an “either/or” proposition. I think that the Christian faith can stand scrutiny (the “Case for Christ” investigation being just one of many), I also believe that God can meet people who are in doubt exactly where they are at. I also understand how the concept of “Shirk” might make even consideration of such ideas extremely problematic. Perhaps it is for this reason that Muslims who are questioning things are granted such powerful experiences. God knows a sincere heart.
 





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Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert, behavioral scientist Paul Dolan says traditional markers of success no longer apply.

We may have suspected it already, but now the science backs it up: unmarried and childless women are the happiest subgroup in the population. And they are more likely to live longer than their married and child-rearing peers, according to a leading expert in happiness.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert

What women want, is wrong and they could do better by ignoring their wants...
I don't understand why are people making this about sleeping around and being sluts. Its common sense. Children are responsibility and with responsibilities, comes stress. Stress about your child's health, food, care, raising them, education and alot more. Obviously a person who doesn't have to take care of or worry about extra people in life would be happier than those who do.
 





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Every Christian I have met irl have been super devout amazing people. Its always the western ones who talk about it while either not following it or pretending that everyone else does. Like someone here, totally not JoChris who has been evading my question of whether the western liberation of women came because of Christianity. If my real life interactions regarding Christianity were with people who resembled people on this forum, i wouldn't have had a nice impression.

I just don't agree with the seeing Jesus thing. What was the point of creating earth and the concept of good and evil and virtue and sin if "god" was going to show himself anyway? And this is why i prefer the logical testimonies over these ones. I'd prefer a good argument about why a certain religion didn't work out for them over "i saw Jesus". Its the same with Muslims who become Hindus. "I saw Krishna" or "I saw this god".
If Jesus is really meeting people left and right, whats to say the Hindu gods are not. Why would I believe in one and not the other?
I approach things at a different angle to Red Sky. His strength is interacting with others like yourself to reach a common ground, understand each other etc. That requires remarkable diplomacy skills at times and he he consistently does a great job.

My focus has alway been on showing the truth no matter which area of Christian apoogetics. That requires bluntness, showing the uncomfortable facts, showing how bible verses should be used and proving how the opponent is misusing them. That will create conflict and disagreement as part of the job.

We are different parts of the Body of Christ. I happen to do one of the less glamorous jobs. If I get told off for being 'unlovng" I now shrug my shoulders and know I am doing Ok when the person can only attack me, not my argument.

I am showing love for you Muslims even if you can't see that yet. A few online apologists have showed that Chritians defending Christianity/ the bible never gets through to a Muslim, but showing facts about Islam is what starts the deconversion process.
 





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Quick entry:
Theo Van Gogh, the man who directed a film exposing the lot of Muslim women was killed for it..
Warning : mature audience.
English with Dutch subtitles.

Outsiders to Islam can see that the film is true. I know most Muslims refuse to do that or they would find it difficult to remain a Muslim.

Manama, If Muhammad gave any commandments for penalties/ punishment to husbands who abused their wivex please show them.
Gentle scolding that you quoted above is extremely insufficent to counteract commandment to discipline disobedient wives I quoted earlier. I know you know that deep down.
 





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I approach things at a different angle to Red Sky. His strength is interacting with others like yourself to reach a common ground, understand each other etc. That requires remarkable diplomacy skills at times and he he consistently does a great job.

My focus has alway been on showing the truth no matter which area of Christian apoogetics. That requires blunness, showing the uncomfortable facts, showing how bible verses should be used and proving how the opponent is misusing them. That will create conflict and disagreement as part of the job.

We are different parts of the Body of Christ. I happen to do one of the less glamorous jobs. If I get told off for being 'unlovng" I now shrug my shoulders and know I am doing Ok when the person can only attack me, not my argument.

I am showing love for you Muslims even if you can't see that yet. A few online apologists have showed that Chritians defending Christianity/ the bible never gets through to a Muslim, but showing facts about Islam is what starts the deconversion process.
Just to say as well @JoChris - conversations without faces or relationship on subjects that are incredibly sensitive are never going to be easy. Text is such a cold medium and there are people who also comment from a Pharisee spirit. I think it is important to acknowledge that both of us, whether simply relating to someone of a different faith or sharing some uncomfortable information are doing what we can to “speak the truth in love”.

My wife usually thinks I am too diplomatic, but that’s only because I used to be perhaps too far the other way. People talking with their friends sometimes have to just “hang out” and other times might need to tell them their child is turning into a monster or their husband has been unfaithful with a girl at the office. Sometimes there really is no other way than to say something that is going to offend someone. If that person has enough knowledge of you to know you are not doing it from a nasty heart, sometimes they might listen.
 





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My focus has alway been on showing the truth no matter which area of Christian apoogetics. That requires bluntness, showing the uncomfortable facts, showing how bible verses should be used and proving how the opponent is misusing them. That will create conflict and disagreement as part of the job.
Despite what you think of yourself, you're the worst person when it comes to coming up with facts based arguments when it comes to religion. You're only second to Lisa. Its not "showing" the truth when the entire conversation has been about a completely different topic.

You have been evading my question of "Did the women liberation in the west come because of Christianity?" for days by trying to change the topic. This isn't you being blunt, this is you being pathetic. So cut me the bs please, you aren't doing some great martyr work. Evading the original topic of conversation because you know the answer isn't in your favor is the same thing Dasciple did.

And then you go ahead and repost a video by Ayaan Hirsi, a woman openly exposed for being fraud. Something this forum has established years ago with you. Just because most people have moved on from the forums, doesn't mean we have forgotten the discussions. This is thunderian level tactics but unoriginality might run deep for you.

Talk about being "blunt" and "giving facts" when you can answer the damn question that started your initial reply.