No regard...for the desire of women

[AspiringSoul]

I should edit this to ask what is your explanation for the cultural issue of "honor killings"? Where do they come from?

it's a mix of being part of a 'strong' culture (i don't mean strong in that it is good, but it is just powerful in the way people abide by it, eg the caste system) and communal type living. also, you get castes living amongst themselves, so you'll have an entire part of a town that's one caste. people feel a strong sense of loyalty to their caste and area.
Everyone knowing everyones business. there's no individuality or privacy...everyone has to fit into the established culture. on top of that, it's very patriarchal. If someone steps out of line, it brings dishonour onto the family...and all that basically means is the family will get shunned by others. That in turn affects the whole family, how their women/daughters are treated in their marriages. So basically the parents start thinking of the 'bigger picture' ie "if we allow him/her to get away with this, no one will ever take us seriously again".
However it is still only a practice done by people in rural areas that are the least educated.
if you see it in the west, those people still come from uneducated areas.

It's easy for someone like me to see it and say "that isnt islam, it's cultural" because i read about girls getting killed for initiating a divorce..and islam is pretty easy going with marraige/divorce in essense, not so much in practice due to the culture it clashes with.

take for example cousin marraiges. islam doesnt forbid it...but that isnt an excuse for people to use an unislamic caste system to push it. people used to marry between different tribes in arabia (im not an arab) to mend tribal conflicts..so such marraiges were encouraged a lot, they brought people together. Yet in many parts of pakistan people see it as dishonour to marry outside their caste, because that's part of hinduism...and YET the irony is in hinduism cousin marraige is frowned upon.


I'll go a little deeper into this
there's an entire metaphysical element to this which ironically hinduism itself teaches, it is the GUNA (state of mind) system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guṇa
it basically describes how, not only individuals, but entire societies are collectively dominated by A Guna (state of mind) .
That in turn, reflects in their collective qualities.
So you have Sattva (pure), Rajas (passion), Tamas (darkness/ignorance).
These 3 guna's also have entire diets/food types associated with each one.
for example a bodybuilder, eats a lot of carbs, that's mostly rajas type food. That gives them energy to move and make things happen.
Sattva is a more, still, simple type of lifestyle/mindset (think of sherpa monks in Nepal).
A society in the Tamas state, produces murderers, rapists, even cannibals and also....homosexuals!!!
you can read up on Tamastic foods to get a general idea.
The foods associated with each guna are only one part of it. Mostly it is based on our mindset, how we think. Eg people who meditate on God usually are in a state of Sattva whereas people who focus on the world, self-attainment are in a state of rajas. it's possible to be a mix of sattva and rajas, in fact is is considered ideal to live a regular life. However people who 'forget God' tend to fall deep into rajas/passion and eventually they succumb to greed/envy etc and become tamastic.
Again, it'll be worth your while reading up on the guna system, the foods/lifestyle and types of qualities associated with each one.


now in islam, we have the same idea..
in the pre-islamic period, people were living in 'jahilliya'(ignorance, which is the equivalent of Tamas). They were meant to be the worst type of people.
the word islam itself, associated with submission and peace, is the same idea as Sattva.
The arabic word for passion is HAWA (which btw is also the name of EVE).
Similarly in the sufi system there are food's broken down to fit certain qualities, but it is mostly part of Unani medicine and breaks into 4 types, 4 personality types, the 4 humours, 4 seasons etc. Slightly different.

Read Romans 1 verses 18 to the end.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=NIV
when you're wary of the 3 gunas system and how it reflects in entire collective society...this makes sense, eg people 'forgot God' then they fell into passions and finally into darkness.

The point is, honour killings and all manner of ignorance are really more of a problem with the collective 'state' of people than it is about a religion or culture and it's rules.

I learnt a lot reading the new testament on this because it focused heavily on the 'state' of the jews in that time. Despite having the law of God, they weren't 'good people'...and the NT focuses heavily on that.

@Serveto i'm bringing you into this because you're well read so you'll remember how much of the Baghvad Gita spoke about the Gunas/qualities and also on meditation of God(or vishnu). Then when you read what Jesus said about the SINGLE eye, it's makes sense who he was, he was teaching the same things Krishna did, both about himself and 'society' aswell as the solution.

Krishna:
Only the ignorant speak in figurative language. It is they who extol the letter of the
scriptures, saying, `There is nothing deeper than this.’
Consulting only their own desires, they construct their own heaven, devising arduous and
complex rites to secure their own pleasure and their own power; and the only result is
rebirth.
While their minds are absorbed with ideas of power and personal enjoyment, they cannot
concentrate their discrimination on one point.
The Vedic Scriptures tell of the three constituents of life – the Qualities. Rise above all of
them, O Arjuna, above all the pairs of opposing sensations; be steady in truth, free from
worldly anxieties and centered in the Self.
As a man can drink water from any side of a full tank, so the skilled theologian can wrest
from any scripture that which will serve his purpose.
But thou hast only the right to work, but none to the fruit thereof. Let not then the fruit of
thy action be thy motive; nor yet be thou enamored of inaction.
Perform all thy actions with mind concentrated on the Divine, renouncing attachment and
looking upon success and failure with an equal eye. Spirituality implies equanimity.

Jesus:
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


How that all relates to 'honor killings' and bad cultural practices aswell as the difference between religion and culture, it really just depends on the spiritual state of people/society.
I have no idea if this has made any sense to you.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Daciple

Right no one can use clear examples of Islam forcing its Law onto a peoples because, its a clear example of the massive problems found in Islamic States, got it lol

Please, IDK how many times we have to go over this, you dont represent Islam and you and I both know in almost every single place that practices Islam you and your made up Religion would be 100% rejected and you would be considered a Non Believer.

What you say does and doesnt represent Islam is of no value because you represent your own made up Religion, and in all of the places I point to that actually practices Islam as found in the Quran and Hadiths, you would probably be put to death, but hey we cant point to that because they dont line up with what you wish Islam actually represented...

1) Iran, is clearly not a reflection of an ideal islamic state because it's come out of a reactionary movement to a puppet government to the west. Therefore you are talking complete shit.
2) i could be a jewish athiest, i can still comment on what i like. The fact is IRAN's shia regime is not an ideal islamic state entirely because it was born out of certain conditions reacting to something else.
IN FACT much of what is modern day islam, was born out of an era of islamic revivalism mixed with nationalism...and so you had the creation of sub-sects like the brelwi and deobandi movement, wahabism, ahle-hadith and those in turn influenced the way sufism was practiced too...therefore i can say none of them accurately reflect an authentic version of islam let alone any type of 'islamic state' any of them would try to build.
however, you don't even know what a brelwi is, that means you have zero credibility even discussing this topic. You have no background knowledge.

Yeah I agree that Iran was completely different until it became a Theocracy with Islamic Sharia being implemented and now it holds its people hostage. I would think Iran would be a great place for Western Ideology to flourish if only these dag on Muslims that practice Islam as its set out in the Quran and Hadiths were not in control. However alas they are there practicing Islam as specifically set out in these Holy Texts which we can see throughout History is how Islam is SUPPOSED to be practiced...

lmfao what an insult to iran's history for it to be a 'great place for western ideology' to flourish. mate, what you fucking any clue what you're talking about?
Iran's philosophy influenced greek philosophy which influenced Jewish/hellenistic philosophy which in turn CREATED Christianity, you stupid fuck.
However post-islam, the era of iran i'm talking about was the 10th to 13th centuries, it ended with the mongol invasions..after that iran was never the same.
The Samanid and Ghaznavid era.
What even is 'western ideology'? the west is ruled by freemasons, do you regard that as good? you realise freemasonry has a heavy focus on numerology, which came from PERSIA anyway?
derp


We can list dozens of Countries that install Sharia Law and then force its people to abide by these rules including wearing specific types of dress. It is just a fact that even in Western Countries where Muslims take over and become the majority of residents that they implement and try and enforce Sharia Law and force people to abide by their ideologies even when the State itself rejects their rules.

To say that Islam doesnt encourage forcing women to cover up is to ignore the text point blank. Now I personally am glad that water downed Muslims, Westernized Muslims exist and understand how ridiculous it is to try and force these Law on people.

I support you if you are here to reject these things, but once you act like what I am saying isnt the Truth or doesnt actually Represent Islam or people dont have to live under these Laws, well thats where we will part ways because at that point you are no longer helping the situation.

Again IDK why this is so hard for you all to do, accept that Islam causes these problems, condemn it, start to reform it, otherwise it will never stop...

1) shariah just means 'law' btw, so it makes me laugh when i read 'shariah law'. Are those countries, highly educated? are the people enforcing the law, 'wise'? think of the 1st century pharisees and how Jesus contrasted their views? who would Jesus have used as an example of an ideal jewish run, torah abiding state? Perhaps, King David? or someone else...
eitherway in the majority of cases, they were never true jewish states/kingdoms as far as them abiding by the Torah. It is more rare to see an ideal jewish theocracy and it's the same with islam.
Nothing ive ever seen in my lifestyle reflected a true 'islamic theocracy' and that's a large reason why i've been supporting secular democratic states rather than pseudo-islamic theocracies, but of course the irony is you call me a non-muslim.
You're basically just as extreme as those 'type' of muslims you prefer to call 'real muslims' but only because it suits your shit narratives.
There can't even be an islamic theocracy without a spiritual reformation beforehand.

2) within the sharia system are certain types of rules that pertain to civil matters eg inheritence, business agreements, marraige/divorce and dietary rules.
just like there are shariah courts which deal with civil matters in the west, the jews have beth din courts. They all fall under 'civil law' and therefore obv aren't a form of opposition to 'western law' the way you're trying to claim. You're out of your depth on this one, yet again.

If there's new legislation on dietary laws, like the stunning law, then it's a 'fiqh' issue and can be addressed. For example if Britain enforced the stunning law, then it's upto the schools of fiqh to decide whether to accept it or not. IF such a thing happens, i can circumvent the whole thing by only consuming fish/eggs and sticking to a vegan diet with everything else. That's pretty much what i already do with the exception of the odd burger and chicken.

3) To say that Islam doesnt encourage forcing women to cover up is to ignore the text point blank. Now I personally am glad that water downed Muslims, Westernized Muslims exist and understand how ridiculous it is to try and force these Law on people.
go back to what i said about a 'spiritual reformation'. In the Quran, it doesnt just say 'THE BOOK/SCRIPTURE'
it says 'THE BOOK AND THE HIKMAH/WISDOM'
Wisdom is something God given. It's from within, it's an understanding of people, circumstances/contexts etc. A good muslim with hikmah would never force someone non-obedient to pray salat or to wear hijab or for a guy to grow a beard. There are many parents who've experienced this struggle with their kids and many realised forcing their kids often backfires badly.

ive seen attempts at establishing some type of 'islamic rule' that was pushed by the deobandi sect in pakistan (again you dont even know wtf a deobandi is, it shows how limited you are when it comes to this topic)...it failed miserable, they basically tried their best to target other sects/sub-sects and norms they didnt like. It failed....and they also created the Afghan taliban.

lmfao at 'watered down muslims, westernised muslims'
you realised western muslims are generally more aware and obedient of islam because we're challenged and forced to THINK and have access to more reading material than the ones in most muslim countries?

4) there are contexts that have to be considered before one just starts pushing 'islamic law' on others..and that is very much a big part of islam, as i said, hikmah/wisdom. It isnt just hikmah though, it's compassion, although both go hand in hand.
You're trying to seperate islam from general positive qualities in humans.
The examples you like to offer of so called 'islamic states' are reactionary movements, often militarised...and they usually have little connection with people on the ground floor level, they usually come from the top. If we're talking about wisdom and compassion, they lack those qualities because they're objective is simply to wrestle for control/power over others.

also when I talk about compassion..if you apply this to God, God is both The Judge aswell as The most compassionate...there are times when punishment is necessary and times when compassion/forgiveness/mercy are necessary.
When the pharisees challenged Jesus, he said "he who is without sin may cast the first stone" YET Moses would have given a different verdict. The times and context matter too, but that's just an extention of Wisdom.

Btw, islam is a religion that believes in the previous prophets and messages...
the Quran says the Torah(context, the old testament) and injeel (new testament) are the Word of Allah. In my mind, the messages in previous scriptures..as in the examples of past prophets, are lessons to take into consideration.
I doubt many muslims in places like pakistan and bangladesh would understand these type of contexts to, at the very least, gain some perspective from.

one thing about stoning for adultery, the Quran doesnt mention it. Int he hadith, it began because jewish rabbis challenged the prophet, like they did with Jesus. Whilst Jesus said "he who is free of sin may cast the first stone", he was rejected for it...so when they challenged Mohammad, he responded "what does it say in your own book?" and then told them to follow their book.




anyway, this whole exercise was pointless, you've just given me a bunch of shit arguments and insulted my intelligence.
Jesus spoke aramic, was he a watered down jew for not speaking hebrew and being a product of a hellenised culture?

 

[Daciple]

Iran's philosophy influenced greek philosophy which influenced Jewish/hellenistic philosophy which in turn CREATED Christianity, you stupid fuck.

Well all I had to do was read this to know I have no interest in speaking to you about anything. Please refrain from tagging me or bother writing anything to me, I am not going to read anything from you.

If you can not control your language towards me on a forum where you have every opportunity to think, read and re read before hitting enter I can only imagine the problems you have with your mouth in real life.

God bless you brother, I will be praying one day you Repent from your made up Religion and come to know the One True God and His Son Jesus Christ and get truly Born Again.

James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

 

[Daciple]

Tedious long comments back and forth with Islamophobes is not my idea of enjoying this forum so this is my last comment to you.

Well I am not an Islamaphobe but like most Leftist fools it is easier to label someone a false label in order to ignore points that go against your ideology than to properly debate the merits behind the points.

I know it is hard for you to grasp but people can reject an ideal with out fearing it, I reject Islam and the method in which it is practiced in the majority of Countries, that does not mean I fear it nor does it mean I am speaking lies about it. Everything I have said thus far has been 100% correct, verified by actual Islamic Countries Legislation or verified by direct text of the Hadith and Quran.

The real problem is you dont like what your own Holy Texts say, which I commend you on, because we all know deep down when it comes to these Humanitarian issues that to follow such Laws and Customs is Barbaric...

LOL.......There is no punishment for not wearing hijab on earth nor any in the next life that is you making up stuff.......

Except I quoted you direct Islamic Scripture and gave you quotes from Muslims themselves. Of course when Muslims say the Truth that you either dont like or are trying to hide then of course I am the one lying. Again take it up with your fellow Muslims and the Text they use to prop up their reasoning and ability to do these things in the name of Muhammad and Allah...

Islam the religion properly understood does not oppress women, and that is all I care about.

Islam as practiced for thousands of years unhindered from Western ideologies 100% oppresses women, there is zero debate about it. We just have to look at the life of its founder to see it. We just have to look at History to see it. We just have to look at the Muslims Nations that until the past 75 yrs had no Western influence on them to see it.

If you stand against it then props to you, you should, however Islam in the Middle East without a doubt oppresses Women at least by Western Standards, period...

Are there people who misuse it?

So what you call misuse it, the rest of the World calls practices it as it was founded. Again the founder, his direct successors, History and the Muslim World apart from Western influence all show us how Islam was meant to be followed. If you reject how it is practiced in all the areas where Islam began and existed apart from Western Influence then you reject how Islam is fundamentally practiced, point blank period.

I would hope that you do reject how Islam is practiced and how it was founded but if you do then I wouldnt consider you an actual Muslim. Just as I dont consider people who reject how Christianity was founded and the doctrine that has been established since its inception as actual Christians. I believe those people have created their own personal Religion of their own ideologies mixed with Christian beliefs to create their own made up Faith. If you reject how Islam has been practiced for thousands of years, the foundation and fundamental ideologies of what makes up Islam then you are not really a Muslim. You have thus made up your own Religion with Islamic beliefs mixed into it...

Your opinions mean naught,

It means exactly as much as your opinion means thus if mine is nothing then so dear are yours.

so if your intent is to paint us in the worst picture so that people do not assess us fairly you are wasting your time.

My intent is to speak the Truth and the Reality of the situation, it is of course your choice to either live in reality or bury your head in the sand. All I can say is that it does a disservice to those who do live under this oppression to act as tho these things dont exist. I have given you the direct verses and the legitimate legal Laws and affects of those Laws institutied by Muslims that affect millions of people. I am not making anything up and I am not painting anyone in a bad light.

If you think what I am saying paints Muslims in a bad light then IDK CHANGE how Islam is practiced, talk out against it, organize with your fellow Muslims to stomp out the practicing of Islam as it has been and is now currently practiced in the Middle East by millions of people. I havent even attempted to show the thousands of articles one can post that show the massive problems contained in Islamic Countries that base their Laws on the Quran and Hadiths. All I have spoken about is the reality of how women CAN and ARE forced to wear specific dress and that in many places these women are harassed, attacked, beaten or imprisoned for not following the LAW as mandated in these areas and cultures which all of them are influenced 100% by Islam...

I have no problem with Western Muslims who actively believe in Freedom of Speech, Religion ect, but the REALITY of the situation is, the way that Islam, the Religion itself, was founded, IT is SUPPOSED to be a THEOCRACY. And regardless of your or anyone elses opinion to the contrary when Islam is practiced as it was founded as a THEOCRACY then oppression follows period.

Just as if Christianity was turned into a Theocracy where Islamic values and beliefs were outlawed and only Christian thought, beliefs, values ect were permissible then oppression of everyone apart from Christians would follow, just like it did when Rome turned Christianity into a Theocracy. I am just as against the State Ran Theocracy of Catholicism as I am against State Ran Theocracy of Islam. The difference is that Catholicism is a perversion of Christianity as Christianity clearly was NOT created nor set up to be a Theocracy, however Islam 100% IS set up and is to be instituted as a Theocracy...

I think many Zio-Christians are hypocrites because it was enlightenment thinkers (the secular side)who made the lot better for women in Europe and America.

First and foremost I am NOT a Zionist Christian, so you are missing your mark on trying to pin point me as being such. I reject Zionism 100%.

Secondly Christianity definitely influenced and helped make the lives of billions of men and women better in the West. I mean do we really need to get into the fact that Islam was and still is the major perpetrator of Slavery world wide, while Christianity became the major purveyor to end Slavery, everywhere, save Islamic Territories?

Also Christianity massively influenced the status of women world wide, prior to Christianity all Cultures viewed women as property, much like Islam as practiced by millions of people today, however Christ came and His teachings were the building blocks to bring equality to women. In fact His teachings were revolutionary at the time and the Bible massively influenced all the Cultures to eventually change their positions on women.

Regardless all we can say is that TODAY in Countries that have predominately Christian populaces, the women enjoy much lower rates of oppression as compared to Countries with predominately Islamic populaces. The women in Countries with high populations of Christians are free whereas women in areas/Countries with high population of Muslims are essentially oppressed, or at the very least have less freedom than women in Christian populaces.

This again is FACT, and FACTS do NOT care about your FEELINGS.

Moreover, your polity is being taken over by Satanism yet you save your heartiest battles for Islam.

What are you even talking about? That being against Satanism and Islam is mutually exclusive? That one can not reject both at the same time?

And you act as tho I spend significant amounts of time speaking about Islam, please stop. I hardly enter Islamic Threads and the fact is I entered this Thread to give a rather OBJECTIVE middle ground of the two hardheaded positions. The hardheaded position of Lisa and the hardheaded positions of you and others who are rejecting the reality of the oppression of women in Islam.

I simply stated the FACTS, I hardly mentioned Islam itself, you however interjected and then tried to LIE about what happens to women who live under Islamic Law and how they are treated.

If you were just HONEST and admitted that Islam as practiced by millions of people DOES force women to dress a certain way and to not do so will bring punishment to them, then nothing else concerning Islam would have been mentioned.

I have spent as much if not more time exposing and speaking about the Satanic takeover of the World as I have of Satan using Islam to accomplish his goals..

So again IDK what on Earth you are talking about. All I can figure is you love to lump everyone into one category and speak in generalities as tho I am even close to what you project onto me, sorry to burst your bubble there but I am not...

Moreover, what I find especially fascinating about how zios and some others is that you pretend to care about women.

Right, no Christians,even the ones who in my opinion wrongly believe in Israels place in the End Times, care at all about Women. What kind of absolute ignorant general statement is this?

No one can take you serious when you make such asinine statements. Christians of all different denominations love and care about all women, if they didnt then you wouldnt see any of them outraged about how women are oppressed in Islam, duh...

What have you done for women under Hinduism?

What have I personally done about women under Hinduism? Probably about as much as you have considering that they are a world away from me, but if you are asking about what has my Religion done for women under Hinduism, then I would say the same as it has done for all the women throughout the world who find freedom in Christ and have a better status when the % of the population turns to Christianity.

If you are trying to make the argument that somehow Islam has helped women or people in general in nations that practice Hinduism I would suggest you learn about the massive violence that those who practice Hinduism face by Muslims that have invaded their Regions and Territories:

Here is the History, the FACTS of how much blood Muslims have on their hands of those who practice Hinduism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus

And not only does it stem back to the 8th Century but it continues today as Muslims murder countless Hindus, but yes please tell me how essentially genocide of peoples are bringing women freedom...

Or for the Christians overseas who also suffer from similar oppression or even in your own countries, in the Amish/Mennonite or Orthodox Jewish communities among others.

What exactly do you expect me an individual to do about the oppression of others a world away from me? What exactly are you personally doing? Are you actually going there and fighting against the governments/religious zealots who are forcing my brothers and sister to flee from persecution because they believe in Christ?

Do you think turning these places into Muslim Nations would somehow benefit my Christian brothers and sisters? To have a Theocratic Islamic Society put into place, you know where it is ILLEGAL to preach the Gospel openly or hand out Bibles? Would THAT be your solution?

My brothers and sisters in Christ are persecuted daily by Muslims the World over, they are imprisoned, beaten and murdered only for believing in Jesus Christ. There is absolutely nothing that Islam can do to help my fellow Christians. Now there may be some individual Muslims that may go against their own Holy Text and can individually help individual Christians (at risk of their own persecution for doing so) however Islam as a Religion and when the majority populace practices the Religion has never and will never benefit any Christians, period.

As for the Amish/Mennonite or Orthodox Jews, you do realize that ALL OF THEM live in a Free Society where there are NO Laws that force them to do anything at all concerning what to wear correct?

These people are actually FREE to leave and wear anything they want, however the ones who dont, well they CHOOSE to stay and thus participate in the Culture.

As I explained to Jess the comparison is not equal in any form or fashion. If a Woman chooses to leave the Amish village she was born in, because she wants to dress however she wants, SHE IS FREE TO DO SO and there is ZERO repercussions. In fact if you bother to study these beliefs they literally are given the opportunity to live in the "Real World" where they can do absolutely anything they want with no draw backs. Its called Rumspringa...

Then they CHOOSE if they want to come back and live as their Community chooses to do, or they stay out of the Community living as they please. Wholly different than Islam where your own family could hunt you down and try and kill and beat you for trying to leave the Faith...

Here is more info about what I am talking about:

https://people.howstuffworks.com/amish5.htm

So the fact is these other Cultures are not oppressing women in any type of fashion as Islam does. Of course you wont accept the Truth but that is what it is. These people can leave if they so choose, they choose not to. You and I both know that in Muslim States its AGAINST THE LAW to leave Islam, you can be attacked imprisoned or murdered for doing so. And these Laws of course are based on the Quran and Hadiths... If you say they arent you of course are lying...

Many Muslim countries are tackling these issues thanks to the Islam hating spotlight and our advancement has and is proceeding

What issues? Islam hating spotlight?

I am trying to understand this sentence, are you saying that the issues I have laid out EXIST and that you and others are trying to reform Islam to address and overcome these problems?

If that is the case then why is calling out the clear problems Islamic Hate? If it is a problem and it needs to be addressed then not only is it not hateful to shine a spotlight on it, it is necessary. And apparently it is taking Non Muslims who actively and vocally disagree and call it out for what it is (which you call Hate) in order for you and your fellow brothers and sisters in Islam to address and try and change it. That says quite a bit about how broken Islam is at the moment.

It takes "hate" from Non Muslims to force Muslims to change the overt oppression of women and other problems being brought to light...

The sad reality is that Western women are generally forced to work whether they want to or not, earn far less than men, and are sexually exploited and objectified to an extent that our grandparents’ generation, were they to witness today’s behaviors and images, would be appalled. And the sad reality is that for every cherry-picked MEMRI anecdote about Muslim men mistreating Muslim women, there are dozens of far worse accounts of Western men mistreating or exploiting Western women–they just don’t get as much media attention, nor are they reported as “typical” of the way Western men behave. (And let’s not even get into what Israeli and American men in uniform do to the women, and men, and children, that they meet in occupied Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan.)

Unfortunately this person plays the same stupid game I see lots of Muslim on this board play, which is when atrocities are highlighted and shown within the Islamic Religion they deflect and try and show the problems in some other Religion or Culture. Regardless of the problems in Western Civilization it doesnt negate the problems inherit in Islam and the Culture that gets enforced the minute that the Muslim % of an area gets to a certain point.

Here is also another Fact, tell me how many women are fleeing the West towards these Muslim Nations in hopes of finding more liberty? Then bring to me the millions upon millions upon millions of people fleeing Muslim Nations to find the freedom (or oppression according to this author) of the West, lets see what people choose? Are people fleeing the West to live in Muslim Nations or are they fleeing Muslim Nations to get into the West?

Here is reality, regardless of the problems women in the West Face (which I do not deny) there is essentially 0% of Western Women fleeing the problems or "persecution" they face in the West and running to Islamic Countries to be saved. However there are millions of Women who DO flee Islamic Nations because of the persecution they face and run to the West to be saved. That is just a fact.

If Western Women were truly being persecuted and they could find truer freedom in an Islamic Nation we would see them flooding Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, the Gaza Strip, Saudi Arabia ect. yet you find no one doing that, instead we find the women from THOSE Nations fleeing to the West, why? Because the West offers a much Truer Freedom for Women AND Men than any Islamic Nation ever has or will...

The Zionist-run West should be put on notice: If you want to keep comparing Western ideals to alleged Muslim realities, fine; we’ll respond by overthrowing the Zionist puppet regimes you’ve imposed on us, and creating societies more in line with our ideals. Then we’ll compare our ideals, and the societies we’re bringing into line with them, to your sordid realities."

Except you have plenty of Nations and communities and areas that HAVE 100% Muslim populaces who LIVE in the same exact way under the same SELF IMPOSED Sharia Law.

I mean there will never be any true reflection of the problems inherit in your Religion if you continually blame a Boogeyman for all your problems.

All that I ever see from Muslims is this constant cry of Zionist this, Zionist that, as tho Zionists have been the one controlling your Religion and Culture since its inception. Stop with blaming your INHERENT problems that have existed for thousands of years APART from any Jewish or literally ANY other influence on Zionists.

Accept the fact that there is something INHERENTLY wrong with how Islam is practiced that causes massive oppression and violence everywhere it takes root, address it, and change it. Until then the cries against the Zionists will be found in an echo chamber of your own making of self pity and despair.

And that comes from someone that wholly rejects Zionism 100% and even shares many of the same beliefs you hold concerning Zionist manipulation of your and my own Religion and the World Politics. However since you REFUSE to accept and address Islams massive problems, when you cry about Zionism, I dont really care, fix your problems and stop making it so incredibly easy for Zionists to manipulate and use you and your Religion for its own purpose.

In other words if Islam was INHERENTLY violent and oppressive then the Zionists would not be able to USE that REALITY to cause Muslims to start murdering certain groups of people which only add fuel to the fire of how Islam is viewed in the World.

Its crazy that Christians are NOT manipulated in this specific way, why? Because Christianity isnt inherently violent, it is actually completely Non Violent so it is extremely hard for someone to either make a Christian become some veil killing machine and then blame Christianity for their violence, or take a large group of people who enact violence, call them Christians and have people believe it is Christianity itself that is the root cause of their violence.

(Now dont purposefully conflate America for Christianity, America is not a Christian State as you have Islamic States)

So my point is, if Muslims would stop burying their head in the sand about their problems, or constantly trying to blame a boogeyman for their problems, and address the actual problems and change it, then the World would see Islam differently and your boogeyman would be hard pressed to use your Religion for its evil purposes...

 

[manama]

Well all I had to do was read this to know I have no interest in speaking to you about anything. Please refrain from tagging me or bother writing anything to me, I am not going to read anything from you.

If you can not control your language towards me on a forum where you have every opportunity to think, read and re read before hitting enter I can only imagine the problems you have with your mouth in real life.

God bless you brother, I will be praying one day you Repent from your made up Religion and come to know the One True God and His Son Jesus Christ and get truly Born Again.

@AspiringSoul You know you've won an argument when they block or in this case, ignore you because words hurt.

 

[manama]

If you are going to talk about "freedom" that women have in western nations then keep it mind, its a freedom that came about by rejecting Christianity and cutting it out of their lives. While Muslim women were first liberated in the extremely misogynist and sexist Arabia by accepting Islam.

For hundreds of years Muslim women had been free, had jobs, owned property and what not while you people were deciding whether a woman should even be taught to read. Every oppression that is in the Muslim world, arose from the west interfering.
Look at Afghanistan, it was a secular free place. Women and Men hanged out together, women wore whatever they wanted to. They openly went to schools and colleges and had jobs and then American intrusion destroyed it and introduced extremism.

Think twice when talking about a freedom that came about by throwing your faith away.

 

[JoChris]

So believing Muslim women "had it better" than other women from the beginning? Did Aisha agree with you?

From your own text:
Rifa`a divorced his wife whereupon `AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. `Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came, `Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When `AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, `Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa`a." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa`a unless `Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) saw two boys with `Abdur- Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that `AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/77/42

That is where the chapter finishes. Did your prophet intervene or tell her husband to stop beating his wife?

From Quran this time, from Pickethall translation [does not insert words to soften the commandment]:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.


Serious question: are there any similar commandments directing husbands to bash their wives in the bible?

 

[Dalit]

Study the history of modern Turkey for the opposite example of everybody's favorite Iran. There, in the 1920's, the secularizing - in fact, fiercely secularizing- Ataturk forcibly unveiled women, disbanded and outlawed the Sufi orders, and adopted a European constitutional model of government

Do be careful what you wish, though, because, in theory if not in fact, a radical "Christian" could arise on your back porch and legislate what and how many clothes you wear, which church you are permitted to attend, and exclude you from buying or selling in the public marketplace without his required method of payment, in the hand or on the forehead

This is true. NAR brand of Christianity is radical with their 7 mountains mandate. They want to take over government, education, entertainment, media, family, etc. They "Christianize" the New Age movement. So Luciferian. They also are moving toward being too ecumenical, getting in bed with the Pope practically. So I think this scenario is a possibility. See Apologia Studios latest livestream/video/podcast if interested.

 

[manama]

So believing Muslim women "had it better" than other women from the beginning? Did Aisha agree with you?

Yes, don't know why you think she'd agree with you lol

Rifa`a divorced his wife whereupon `AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. `Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came, `Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When `AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, `Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa`a." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa`a unless `Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) saw two boys with `Abdur- Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that `AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/77/42

Whats with you all looking at only half the thing and ignoring the rest. Aspiringsoul or anyone else could probably answer this better than me but in this context, the man raised his hand at the woman? Woman wants divorce and go back to her ex? So Prophet said, you can marry someone you divorced before only if you actually consumated your marriage with your current husband and she did? So she is clearly permitted to divorce him and marry the one she wants to marry? Am i missing something?

That is where the chapter finishes. Did your prophet intervene or tell her husband to stop beating his wife?

From Quran this time, from Pickethall translation [does not insert words to soften the commandment]:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Again bringing up the verse everyone brings up and we have answered every single time.
The actual text, men are superior to women refers to in strength which is the reason why men are mostly working to get money while the women take care of the house (not always ofcourse, women had jobs in hijaz). And it says that if the husband is making that sacrifice for the wife then its her job to take care of his property and not cheat on him while the rest of the verse again mostly applies to cheating. Whats wrong here?

 

[manama]

Serious question: are there any similar commandments directing husbands to bash their wives in the bible?

JoChris I genuinely don't care. Dasciple kept going on and on about western freedom. This freedom however is not a result of Christianity, its a result of cutting off Christianity. Thats a fact.
I know you guys get super defensive about your faith when we mention the influence it has (or doesn't have anymore) on the western society but please read the reply first. Also isn't divorce prohibited in Christianity lol.

 

[JoChris]

Yes, don't know why you think she'd agree with you lol



Whats with you all looking at only half the thing and ignoring the rest. Aspiringsoul or anyone else could probably answer this better than me but in this context, the man raised his hand at the woman? Woman wants divorce and go back to her ex? So Prophet said, you can marry someone you divorced before only if you actually consumated your marriage with your current husband and she did? So she is clearly permitted to divorce him and marry the one she wants to marry? Am i missing something?


Again bringing up the verse everyone brings up and we have answered every single time.
The actual text, men are superior to women refers to in strength which is the reason why men are mostly working to get money while the women take care of the house (not always ofcourse, women had jobs in hijaz). And it says that if the husband is making that sacrifice for the wife then its her job to take care of his property and not cheat on him while the rest of the verse again mostly applies to cheating. Whats wrong here?

Yes, don't know why you think she'd agree with you lol



Whats with you all looking at only half the thing and ignoring the rest. Aspiringsoul or anyone else could probably answer this better than me but in this context, the man raised his hand at the woman? Woman wants divorce and go back to her ex? So Prophet said, you can marry someone you divorced before only if you actually consumated your marriage with your current husband and she did? So she is clearly permitted to divorce him and marry the one she wants to marry? Am i missing something?


Again bringing up the verse everyone brings up and we have answered every single time.
The actual text, men are superior to women refers to in strength which is the reason why men are mostly working to get money while the women take care of the house (not always ofcourse, women had jobs in hijaz). And it says that if the husband is making that sacrifice for the wife then its her job to take care of his property and not cheat on him while the rest of the verse again mostly applies to cheating. Whats wrong here?

What is wrong is that Quran commands the man to physically discipline his wife if she is disobedient.

Is there any Islamic commandment where the ***wife*** is told to physically discipline her husband?

Why is an allegedly holy prophet giving such commandments anyway? Did Muhammad have mother issues?

 

[JoChris]

JoChris I genuinely don't care. Dasciple kept going on and on about western freedom. This freedom however is not a result of Christianity, its a result of cutting off Christianity. Thats a fact.
I know you guys get super defensive about your faith when we mention the influence it has (or doesn't have anymore) on the western society but please read the reply first. Also isn't divorce prohibited in Christianity lol.

No signs of defensiveness from me.
And divorce is not wife-bashing.
Please show a commandment from New Testament where the Christian husband is directed to physically discipline his wife if she does not submit. Thanks in advance.

 

[manama]

What is wrong is that Quran commands the man to physically discipline his wife if she is disobedient.

Is there any Islamic commandment where the ***wife*** is told to physically discipline her husband?

Why is an allegedly holy prophet giving such commandments anyway? Did Muhammad have mother issues?

Not sleeping with someone does not equal beating them up. I'll ignore the disrespect though since you aren't worth it.

No signs of defensiveness from me.
And divorce is not wife-bashing.
Please show a commandment from New Testament where the Christian husband is directed to physically discipline his wife if she does not submit. Thanks in advance.

It is defensiveness though. Considering that you replied to me with religious verses and hadith when none of my point was about the teachings of Christianity because I honestly don't care when they contradict themselves every 2 minutes.

I said that western liberation of women or their freedom was not brought about by Christianity but it was sure brought about by cutting it out.
Or are you saying that the women in the west are free because of Christianity? I'd love to know how.

 

[Lisa]

When a company runs into trouble, it tries to go forward or backward. And when Banana Republic faced a 3% decline in sales, it decided to go all the way back to the 7th century. Hoping to tap into the lucrative market of concealing bruises and strangulation marks, Banana Republic rolled out a line of hijabs for the discerning woman who knows better than to leave home without the permission of a male guardian.

While women in Iran were being beaten and imprisoned for taking off their hijabs, Banana Republic decided to celebrate the courageous spirit of those women who want to live as second class citizens.

But if the Gap brand thought that displaying some garments of female subjugation between its ugly purple purses and its eighteen-dollar scrunchies would win over Islamists, it had another thing coming.

Modern lefties iconize hijabs without having the faintest idea of what they mean or what they’re for. All they know is that to properly display diversity, you need to add a woman in a hijab between the gay guy, the Black Lives Matter guy, and the militant #resistance member ready to storm Starbucks; even though a hijab is as much a symbol of human liberation as a case of female genital mutilation.

But since Banana Republic couldn’t figure out how to market female genital mutilation to sophisticated urban consumers, it had to settle for trying to sell them hijabs. A hijab, BR execs thought, is just a 72x26 shmata. Our Vietnamese slave laborers can make one a minute before passing out from the toxic fumes. And we can sell them for 20 bucks while getting a diversity award from CAIR for our wokeness.

A cigar may sometimes just be a cigar, but a hijab is always a repressive way of life.

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/274509/banana-republic-cant-cover-women-fast-enough-sell-daniel-greenfield

 

[Lisa]

Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert, behavioral scientist Paul Dolan says traditional markers of success no longer apply.

We may have suspected it already, but now the science backs it up: unmarried and childless women are the happiest subgroup in the population. And they are more likely to live longer than their married and child-rearing peers, according to a leading expert in happiness.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert

What women want, is wrong and they could do better by ignoring their wants...

 

[DevaWolf]

Just a question Lisa, how do you feel about the FLDS and other Mormons like the Amish, are they just as repressive as Islamists or does their dresscode not infringe on women's liberty?

 

[Vytas]

Science backs it up lol. Maybe just maybe there is little agenda going on... How does science measure happiness anyway ?

 

[Todd]

Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert, behavioral scientist Paul Dolan says traditional markers of success no longer apply.

We may have suspected it already, but now the science backs it up: unmarried and childless women are the happiest subgroup in the population. And they are more likely to live longer than their married and child-rearing peers, according to a leading expert in happiness.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert

What women want, is wrong and they could do better by ignoring their wants...

Maybe if your study was focused on 25-40 year old people only that might be true. But I'm pretty sure that when people get older the ones who have children and also grandchildren are probably happier. Many seniors that are childless are quite lonely.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Maybe if your study was focused on 25-40 year old people only that might be true. But I'm pretty sure that when people get older the ones who have children and also grandchildren are probably happier. Many seniors that are childless are quite lonely.

True from my wider circle of friends @Todd

 

[Todd]

True from my wider circle of friends @Todd

True from my own experience also!