Once Saved Always Saved?

Todd

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Why do you think God won’t be seen face to face in His millennial reign?
Why do you think he will? God wasn't seen face to face at Christ's first coming, why would he at Christ's second coming? I don't recall anywhere were it says God will show his face during the millenial reign of Christ.

I think that if that’s all that was needed then Adam and Eve wouldn’t have fallen in the beginning. They saw God, walked with Him, talked with Him and still fell away from Him...seeing isn’t enough which is why we now walk by faith not sight, I suppose. We can also see where Cain knew God but He didn’t want to worship God as God wanted and went his own way too.
From the beginning its always been the choice to follow God or not, He didn’t force anyone, but He did warn what would happen if He was disobeyed.
Adam and Eve disobeyed the commands of God, just like you still do, even though you are saved and have a relationship with God. Adam and Eve did not reject a choice to accept God. They made a grave mistake that seperated them from the pure presence of God. Something you and I still experience today, even though we have accepted the work of the cross and confess salvation.

As a side note, since you are using Adam and Eve as a comparison to those you claim will burn in hell for eternity, do you believe Adam and Eve will be burning in hell for eternity also?

No, the two choices are believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved or be thrown into the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. If He was sadistic...He wouldn’t give any way out of eternal torment and He surely wouldn’t have taken our punishment on Himself.
If he was sadistic and all knowing, he would still give a way out knowing that most of humanity would not accept his way out, if indeed his way out expires at the end of this lifetime as you and the majority of mainstream Christianity believe. Of course there is not one single scripture that explicitily teaches that the offer of salvation through the work of the cross, expires when our temporal life in this age ends. There are plenty of scriptures that imply salvation and redemption occur for many in the ages to come.
 

Lisa

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Why do you think he will? God wasn't seen face to face at Christ's first coming, why would he at Christ's second coming? I don't recall anywhere were it says God will show his face during the millenial reign of Christ.
Eh? Jesus is reigning...why wouldn’t people see Him? And people did walk and talk with Jesus when He came down from heaven and took the punishment for our sins.

As a side note, since you are using Adam and Eve as a comparison to those you claim will burn in hell for eternity, do you believe Adam and Eve will be burning in hell for eternity also?
I used Adam and Eve because of this comment of yours..
You don't think that God is great and wonderful enough that in the ages to come when everyone see's him for who he really is that everyone will not eventually choose him
And the way their story in Genesis ended I can’t say for sure that they won’t be in the lake of fire...

There are plenty of scriptures that imply salvation and redemption occur for many in the ages to com
How many ages to come do you think there are? So do you think that the dead can choose to be saved or once you’ve died you’ve lost the right to choose?
 

Todd

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Eh? Jesus is reigning...why wouldn’t people see Him? And people did walk and talk with Jesus when He came down from heaven and took the punishment for our sins.
Jesus the son of Man? The messiah, the Christ, the second Adam, but not God.

I used Adam and Eve because of this comment of yours..

And the way their story in Genesis ended I can’t say for sure that they won’t be in the lake of fire...
How about Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob?

How many ages to come do you think there are? So do you think that the dead can choose to be saved or once you’ve died you’ve lost the right to choose?
I really don't now how many ages there will be, but the fact that the bible mentions a plurality of ages to come, I know there are more beyond what we experience in this current temporal age.

I know that death cannot seperate us from the Love of God. I know that death is the last enemy to be defeated, so if death is defined as seperation from God, no one will be left apart from God if death is completely defeated.

Revelation 21:4
and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.

If there is no sorrow or pain then no one can be left in hell, unless God himself and all his "beleivers" are sadistic. Only a sadistic person could have no sorrow or pain knowing that someone they loved in this lifetime is suffering eternally.

I have found no Bible verses that say the offer of salvation through faith in Christ is only valid in this lifetime. So yes, I do think those that physically die without faith in Christ, will experience the purifying fire of God, and have every opportunity to be redeemed through faith in Christ. Of course I do not wish that process (weeping and gnashing of teeth) upon anyone, so I still preach the good news of Christ in this lifetime and rejoice when anyone accepts Christ by faith in the here and now.

Christ truly is the Savior of all and he will be completely victorious. Not one will be lost. Have you not read the parable of the lost sheep? God will do everything and anything to redeem every single person of creation whether in this age or the ages to come.

Psalm 103
8The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.

9He will not always strive with us;
Nor will He keep His anger forever.

10He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
 

Lisa

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Jesus the son of Man?
Jesus, God the Son, yes many people saw Him, heard Him and believed in Him.

How about Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob?
Adam and Eve actually talked and walked with God face to face and then were deceived...which I thought disproved what you said about people seeing God and believing Him.

I really don't now how many ages there will be, but the fact that the bible mentions a plurality of ages to come, I know there are more beyond what we experience in this current temporal age.
What verse or verses are ya talking about?


no one will be left apart from God if death is completely defeated.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
‭‭REVELATION‬ ‭20:11-15‬ ‭


I have found no Bible verses that say the offer of salvation through faith in Christ is only valid in this lifetime.
Why would it be valid in any other time period? This age gets wrapped up in the great tribulation where Jesus comes back and defeats satan and His enemies and then sets up His millennial reign.
 
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Still this free grace theology is telling believers that as long as they believe in Jesus their salvation is assured.

This is not true !


Salvation is about removal of sins which is only possible by the spilt Blood of the only begotten Son of God. And sinners apply that Blood for remission of sins by repentance that is regretting and turning from sins and starting to live according to His red letter words.

Sure there might be slip ups but we repent and confess and press on to perfection. It's a walk with the Lord until the end...




If people don't even bother to repent that is regret their sins and turn from them... then they miss God's mercy and must face His justice.
Salvation IS a free gift...free to US, at least.

God offers us this free gift the moment we believe on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Think about the nature of a gift, Toki:

A gift is something given freely to the receiver.

But it was paid for by the giver.

God gives us the free gift of salvation but it was paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

If I give you a Bible, it is a free gift. You can have it, you pay nothing for it. It is totally free to you, right? It is a gift.

But I had to pay for it in order to give it to you.

The giver pays for the gift, the receiver does not. That is how a gift works.

C5D0712A-F9C4-43B8-A91A-ED0C40D6916A.jpeg
 
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I don't have a problem at all with God's prescribed punishment, because God never says his punishment, his wrath or his anger is forever. I have a problem with man misrepresenting what God actually said as a tactic to scare people into submission.

What kind of parent uses threats, fear and intimidation to motivate their children?
He did say His punishment is forever. Fire, brimstone, torment, and yes, it lasts forever:

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”.....Daniel 12:2 KJB

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”.......Matthew 25:41 KJB
 

Todd

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Jesus, God the Son, yes many people saw Him, heard Him and believed in Him.
God the son? I'm not familiar with the verse that uses that term. Reference please.....

Adam and Eve actually talked and walked with God face to face and then were deceived...which I thought disproved what you said about people seeing God and believing Him.
I don't think Adam and Eve ever actually stopped believing in God. They disobeyed. Something you and I still do even though we know God and have accepted his offer of salvation.

What verse or verses are ya talking about?
Ephesian 2:7, Eph 1:21, Luke 20:34-35, Mark 10:30, 1 Timothy 6:17-19, Eph 1:10, Eph 3:21, Jude 25, I Cor 15:26-28, I Tim 2:3-6
Of course if you read those only in your English translations without doing proper word study to understand the meaning of the original greek words you won't see it.

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
‭‭REVELATION‬ ‭20:11-15‬ ‭
Yes the lake of Fire that purifyings and burns away all the drose. Everywhere in scripture Fire represents God's process of purification. Every person goes through two different deaths. The physical death and the spiritual death. As Christians we die to self in this age (spiritual death) to become "born again". We will eventually experience physical death also.

The unbeliever experiences physical death first. Then in the ages to come, since they did not experience spiritual death (to self) in this lifetime they will experience the second death, in the lake of fire. The lake of fire will purifying them from self.

Why would it be valid in any other time period? This age gets wrapped up in the great tribulation where Jesus comes back and defeats satan and His enemies and then sets up His millennial reign.
Because nothing including death can stop God's love and mercy. There are many scriptures in the Bible that talk about God's wrath and anger ending and not lasting forever, but every scripture about his mercy, love and grace is that it is unending. So why should I think that his offer of salvation through the blood of Christ would ever end?
 

Todd

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He did say His punishment is forever. Fire, brimstone, torment, and yes, it lasts forever:

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”.....Daniel 12:2 KJB

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”.......Matthew 25:41 KJB
Claire, once again your faith and trust in an English tranlsations of the Bible fails you. The words (both the hebrew word "Olam" in Daniel and the Greek word "aionios" in Mathhew) translated "everlasting" do not mean eternity. It means "of the ages". The ages are the component of creation we know as time. Time does not exist in eternity. Thre is not time in eternity. Time is part of creation and will cease to exist. When all things are brought into submissin under Christ time will cease to exist and God will become all in all. (I Corinthians 15:28). That "all" includes every single human being, believer and unbelievers. There is no such thing as eternal torment or fire. Yes there will be torment for unbelievers in the age or ages to come, but those ages are finite and will end also.

The mistranslation of the word aionios was perpetrated by those in the Church who clung to the pagan concept of "Hell" and damnation to scare people into submission to the Church. God does nothing without good intention and a good result. The Lake of Fire has a purpose and God's purposes are always for our good.

If God is truly going to wipe away all our tears and there will be no sorrow or pain, then it is impossible that anyone will suffer or burn for "eternity". How could you not have at least some inkling of sorrow or pain, knowing that many are suffering for eternity?

If you claim you can be absent of sorrow or pain, knowing most of humanity is suffering eternally, then you are as Sadistic as the God you portray.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Without getting involved too much, I can’t be the only one who looks at the back and forth of comments and wonders why such an emphasis on what might make a “minimum grade Christian”?

If we were all in degree courses and studying to achieve the best we could, would we spend much time what happens to those who live at the student bar, never turn in an essay and know almost nothing about their chosen subject?

Sure there may be some debate on whether someone achieving below a third class degree gets to graduate at all, and if we are friends with such folk, it might give us an emotional investment in the outcome.

Doesn’t Paul get the focus right when he says this in Philippians 3

Press on Toward the Goal

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
 

Allegra

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Some scholars state that the word everlasting, in reference to hell, does not mean forever but instead a limited duration. However, the word everlasting (or eternal) is used 66 times in the bible and it is clear that it means forever. In these instances it is used to describe God, His throne, and our salvation. It’s used only three times to mean a limited duration, and it is obvious in those verses that it’s not referencing God, heaven or hell.

Scholar A. W. Pink said this about the word eternal, or everlasting, “The Greek word is Aionios. Its meaning and scope has been definitely defined for us by the Holy Spirit in at least two passages. In 2 Corinthians 4:18 it states, ‘While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.’ Here, a contrast is drawn between things seen, and things not seen, between things temporal, and things eternal. If the things temporal should last forever, there would be no antithesis to the things eternal. It is equally obvious that if the things eternal are merely age long, than they cannot be properly contrasted with things that are temporal. The difference between the things temporal, and things eternal in this verse is as great as the difference between the things seen and the things not seen.”

In Matthew 25:41 Jesus said, “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil, and his angels.” Most of us have no trouble with believing that the devil will be in eternal fire or in hell forever. Jesus just pointed out in that verse that people are cast into the same place as the devil, “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” So, people are going to the same place (Matthew 25:41 uses the same word in Romans 16:26).

To further define the word everlasting, Revelation 20:10 says, “And, the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire, and brimstone, where the beast, and the false prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night forever, and ever. In Matthew 25:41, he just switched it out, and used the word tormented forever and ever, day and night, forever and ever. It’s defining everlasting as day and night, forever and ever. To go even further, look at the word everlasting in these verses:

2 Peter 2:11, “Everlasting kingdom of our Lord.”

Revelation 14:6, “Everlasting gospel.”

Hebrews 13:20, “Everlasting covenant.”

John 6:40, “Everlasting life.” You can see it’s the same word defining eternal.

Hebrews 1:8, “Thy throne, oh God is forever.”

Revelation 11:15, “Christ, he shall reign forever and ever.”

Romans 1:25. “The creator who is blessed forever and ever.”

John 12:34, “Christ abides forever.”

John 6:51, “If a man eat this bread, he shall live forever.” See again it clearly means forever and ever.

Revelation 14:10 -11,”And, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and he shall be tormented with fire, and brimstone in the presence of the lamb, and in the presence of the Holy Angels.” One must exist to be in his presence. “And, the smoke of their torment ascends up forever, and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.” Again, it refers to forever and ever.

Matthew 25:46, “And, these shall go into everlasting life, and these shall go into everlasting punishment.” He used the same word for everlasting. It is the word Aionios. In describing heaven as everlasting, so is hell everlasting. Eternal punishment is because we need to recognize who we have sinned against: A holy, omnipotent, perfect, and eternal God. In addition, we need to realize what God sent His only Son to die a horrific death on the cross for our sins. God sacrificed His all for us. To reject Jesus is saying we don’t value what God values therefore, our rejection of Jesus is deserving of eternal punishment in hell. It will be your own fault if you go to hell because you have been warned over and over throughout your life. It’s not God’s decision. It’s yours. - Bill Wiese
 

Todd

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What does forever and ever mean? It's an irrational and illogical statement. Makes more sense when translated from age to age, because it clear the word aionios means age and not forever. We only accept the term forever and ever, because it has been indoctrintated and ingrained in our english Christian lingo. LOL! The reasoning for saying everlasting clearly means everlasting in English translations is clearly circular logic. When comparing the use of the word aionios in non-christian literature of the same time it clearly was not used to mean eternity and meant a long duration of time with a definite beginning and end.

I don't understand why Christians fight so hard to defend a Sadisitc portrayal of God, when a clearly more logical and consistent answer exists. What kind of Christian truly rejoices and is at peace with the idea that most of humanity will suffer eternally?

For 25+ years I defended the same sadistic protrayal of God, but deep down, when I was honest with myself it never sat right. Now that I understand God's plan to redeem all of mankind I rejoice in the fact that Jesus will be completely 100% victorious in his mission to save ALL. I now rejoice knowing that God is truly omnipotent, loving and merciful and that his will is greater than any man's individual will.

If you all are truly able to rejoice in a sadistic God or at best one who claims it is his will that all be saved, but apparently is incompotent to bring about his will, then have it. My God given conscience would not allow me remain there. And when I pressed in and questioned God how this could be, that is when he lead me to the doctrine of Apokatastatis.

How can you trust a God who tells us we will have no pain or sorrow while most of humanity suffers eternally. Is God going to erase my memory of every family member and friend who was not "saved"? My love, adoration and trust in God, and hence my motivation to serve him and tell others about him, has multiplied greatly since embracing Apokatastatsis.
 

Todd

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Some scholars state that the word everlasting, in reference to hell, does not mean forever but instead a limited duration. However, the word everlasting (or eternal) is used 66 times in the bible and it is clear that it means forever. In these instances it is used to describe God, His throne, and our salvation. It’s used only three times to mean a limited duration, and it is obvious in those verses that it’s not referencing God, heaven or hell.

Scholar A. W. Pink said this about the word eternal, or everlasting, “The Greek word is Aionios. Its meaning and scope has been definitely defined for us by the Holy Spirit in at least two passages. In 2 Corinthians 4:18 it states, ‘While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.’ Here, a contrast is drawn between things seen, and things not seen, between things temporal, and things eternal. If the things temporal should last forever, there would be no antithesis to the things eternal. It is equally obvious that if the things eternal are merely age long, than they cannot be properly contrasted with things that are temporal. The difference between the things temporal, and things eternal in this verse is as great as the difference between the things seen and the things not seen.”

In Matthew 25:41 Jesus said, “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil, and his angels.” Most of us have no trouble with believing that the devil will be in eternal fire or in hell forever. Jesus just pointed out in that verse that people are cast into the same place as the devil, “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” So, people are going to the same place (Matthew 25:41 uses the same word in Romans 16:26).

To further define the word everlasting, Revelation 20:10 says, “And, the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire, and brimstone, where the beast, and the false prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night forever, and ever. In Matthew 25:41, he just switched it out, and used the word tormented forever and ever, day and night, forever and ever. It’s defining everlasting as day and night, forever and ever. To go even further, look at the word everlasting in these verses:

2 Peter 2:11, “Everlasting kingdom of our Lord.”

Revelation 14:6, “Everlasting gospel.”

Hebrews 13:20, “Everlasting covenant.”

John 6:40, “Everlasting life.” You can see it’s the same word defining eternal.

Hebrews 1:8, “Thy throne, oh God is forever.”

Revelation 11:15, “Christ, he shall reign forever and ever.”

Romans 1:25. “The creator who is blessed forever and ever.”

John 12:34, “Christ abides forever.”

John 6:51, “If a man eat this bread, he shall live forever.” See again it clearly means forever and ever.

Revelation 14:10 -11,”And, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and he shall be tormented with fire, and brimstone in the presence of the lamb, and in the presence of the Holy Angels.” One must exist to be in his presence. “And, the smoke of their torment ascends up forever, and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.” Again, it refers to forever and ever.

Matthew 25:46, “And, these shall go into everlasting life, and these shall go into everlasting punishment.” He used the same word for everlasting. It is the word Aionios. In describing heaven as everlasting, so is hell everlasting. Eternal punishment is because we need to recognize who we have sinned against: A holy, omnipotent, perfect, and eternal God. In addition, we need to realize what God sent His only Son to die a horrific death on the cross for our sins. God sacrificed His all for us. To reject Jesus is saying we don’t value what God values therefore, our rejection of Jesus is deserving of eternal punishment in hell. It will be your own fault if you go to hell because you have been warned over and over throughout your life. It’s not God’s decision. It’s yours. - Bill Wiese
Are you going to trust Scholars who portray God as loving, merciful,omnipotent and victorious in bringing about his will, or scholars who portray God as sadistic, incompotent and a failure at bringing about his will? I tried to follow and defended the latter for 25 years...no more!
 
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Allegra

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Our spirit/soul is eternal. It can not cease to exist. It is the soul that is breathed by the Spirit of God. Eternal God.

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of humans; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

God is just. Believers get everlasting life and unbelievers get everlasting punishment.

God is full of love and mercy but He is also the God of Wrath for those who are against Him.

Don’t ask “How come God who is mercy and love able do this to us?!” It’s the same statement that comes out of unbelievers to go against God. It’s very human way of thinking, but not God’s way of thinking.
He says His way is not our way and His thought is not our thought.

If you truly love God, you have to learn to accept that God treats us equal. One gets everlasting life and one gets everlasting punishment. Both receive their due based on what they have done on earth.

Don’t look at God from one side but look at God on every side of Him knowing that He Is justice. Just because He is God of mercy and love does not mean He is not able to punish people eternally. Don’t take God’s love and mercy too easy..

As Bill Wiese said, we’ve already been warned over and over again, it is up to us how to live.
 

Todd

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Our spirit/soul is eternal. It can not cease to exist. It is the soul that is breathed by the Spirit of God. Eternal God.
No basis in scripture at all for this contention. Every human who has died since Adam is dead and gone in the ground. No human is in heaven except Jesus. God said the consequence of sin is death. The only reason that any human can exist after death, believer or unbeliever is because they will be risen from the dead because of the work that Christ did on the cross. A man who was sinless died and was raised by God as the first fruit. We all will have the opportunity to partake of that. Some to reward some to judgement.

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of humans; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

God is just. Believers get everlasting life and unbelievers get everlasting punishment.
Yes I agree that God is just. But how is eternal infinite suffering for sins done in a temporal world, just?

God is full of love and mercy but He is also the God of Wrath for those who are against Him.
And there are many scriptures that say God's wrath and anger will cease, whereas his mercy endures forever.

Don’t ask “How come God who is mercy and love able do this to us?!” It’s the same statement that comes out of unbelievers to go against God. It’s very human way of thinking, but not God’s way of thinking.
He says His way is not our way and His thought is not our thought.
God says in all things get an understanding. When I sought understanding on something I didn't have peace he showed me UR. It's no different than accepting Jesus as the messiah and the work he did on the cross. Until God opens your eyes to it, we can't see it in our own ability. Knock and the door will be opened. Seek and ye shall find. There is no scripture that says accept something you don't have peace about it.

If you truly love God, you have to learn to accept that God treats us equal. One gets everlasting life and one gets everlasting punishment. Both receive their due based on what they have done on earth.
How is one getting everlasting life and one getting everlasting punishment equal? Have you not committed sin that is worthy of death? Are you claiming that you have done something worthy and noble of your own doing that makes you worthy of everlasting life more than an unbeliever? That is where your message gets sticky and contradictory. One one hand Christians say we are not worthy and we cannot accept and choose God by our own will. On the other hand they defend eternal punishment with God made a way and we only have to accept (choose) it. So which is it? Is salvation dependent on us or God? If you say it's on us you are taking credit for something that the Christian message clearly says we cannot take credit for. If you say it is on God, then you are protraying him as sadistic, as he chooses who suffers for eterntity and who doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

Don’t look at God from one side but look at God on every side of Him knowing that He Is justice. Just because He is God of mercy and love does not mean He is not able to punish people eternally. Don’t take God’s love and mercy too easy..
No, you are the one taking God's justice to extreme and absurd levels. Infinite torment for finite sins is not just. You are also the one who is protraying God's love and mercy as finite and limited, when scripture clearly says the opposite.

As Bill Wiese said, we’ve already been warned over and over again, it is up to us how to live.
Agreed. UR does not replace the fact that there will be consequences for our actions. There will be suffering, weeping and gnashing of teeth for unbelievers. However that suffering and pain is not without purpose and God will eventually draw, win over, purify and redeem all of mankind. I'm greatful that God chose for me to experience that process in this lifetime and not in the ages to come.

The doctrine of man is the only thing that limits God's mercy, grace, forgiveness and ability to redeem man, to this side of death. The view of God that you are trying to defend portrays him as limited and unable to bring about his will. The view you are defending portrays death as more powerful than God's will as by your doctine physical death ends the offer of salvation that was purchased by Christ's work on the cross.

I was were youare for a long time, so I know how hard it is to escape the paradigm you are stuck in. It's okay if you can't see it yet, you are still my sister in Christ! God bless!
 
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Allegra

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Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

God is called the almighty and the Spirit of God is well, Holy Spirit aka God.
If you don’t believe then you do you.

Also you live your life, I live my life, all the “I was like you.. I used to be like you...” you know, there are millions like me and we live and die with this belief that you reject :)

—-
All the verses that I put already show you my stance in this debate. It is up to you want to believe or not. It has been spoken. Your Aionios argument is already been countered. If you choose everlasting punishment is not everlasting cuz it is using word Aionios that means you also say that everlasting life is not everlasting cuz the word used is the same.

You can’t cherrypick the Word of God. If you go with the everlasting life is not eternal cuz of the Greek word then you’re believing in false doctrine.

The rest of your argument I’m not interested to debate. I just want to debate using bible verse not your opinion and philosophy.

Almost 2 am, I have to sleep. Good night everyone.
 

Lisa

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God the son? I'm not familiar with the verse that uses that term. Reference please.....


I don't think Adam and Eve ever actually stopped believing in God. They disobeyed. Something you and I still do even though we know God and have accepted his offer of salvation.


Ephesian 2:7, Eph 1:21, Luke 20:34-35, Mark 10:30, 1 Timothy 6:17-19, Eph 1:10, Eph 3:21, Jude 25, I Cor 15:26-28, I Tim 2:3-6
Of course if you read those only in your English translations without doing proper word study to understand the meaning of the original greek words you won't see it.


Yes the lake of Fire that purifyings and burns away all the drose. Everywhere in scripture Fire represents God's process of purification. Every person goes through two different deaths. The physical death and the spiritual death. As Christians we die to self in this age (spiritual death) to become "born again". We will eventually experience physical death also.

The unbeliever experiences physical death first. Then in the ages to come, since they did not experience spiritual death (to self) in this lifetime they will experience the second death, in the lake of fire. The lake of fire will purifying them from self.


Because nothing including death can stop God's love and mercy. There are many scriptures in the Bible that talk about God's wrath and anger ending and not lasting forever, but every scripture about his mercy, love and grace is that it is unending. So why should I think that his offer of salvation through the blood of Christ would ever end?
Yes, I know you’re not familiar with the term God the Son. Maybe God’s only begotten Son then? Who came down from heaven John 6:38

Yes, Adam and Eve disobeyed, but they never did seem to own up to what they did. Makes one wonder if they just decided to leave it be. But, we don’t get the end of their story so its hard to say.

I think only Ephesians 2:6-7 talk about the ages to come a couple talk about the next age and the rest have no relation to anything about the ages to come. As for Ephesians 2:6-7 one could read it as the ones raised up with Jesus are shown to have received God’s grace and kindness towards us rather than Jesus will be raised up through the ages. I don’t think it makes sense that since this age closes out that Jesus would be the sacrifice for sins especially since the next age is the millennium. Jesus’ rule on earth where He rules with a rod of iron...doesn’t sound like grace is used in this part.

Looks like you’re are going to the catholics with a view of purgatory? Clearly the verse doesn’t lean towards a purifying fire but a firey punishment that no one wants to be in. Even God doesn’t want people to experience it since He sent His Son to be sin for us and take the punishment for our sins so that we may have everlasting life, not everlasting torment.

You seem to be getting worse, Todd...but then once you fall away from the faith, the only way is down.
 
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Todd

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You seem to be getting worse, Todd...but then once you fall away from the faith, the only way is down.
Yes that's correct. To those who are stuck in religious bondage to the doctrines of man, true freedom in the Spirit of God always looks strange and foreign.

Quite contrary to what you may think, UR requires more faith in the ability and omnipotence of God and more faith in his mercy, kindness and forgiveness...not less. May faith has increased, not decreased, as I have let go of the doctrines of man and organized religion. Maybe someday God will grant you the same blessing too!
 
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Claire, once again your faith and trust in an English tranlsations of the Bible fails you. The words (both the hebrew word "Olam" in Daniel and the Greek word "aionios" in Mathhew) translated "everlasting" do not mean eternity. It means "of the ages". The ages are the component of creation we know as time. Time does not exist in eternity. Thre is not time in eternity. Time is part of creation and will cease to exist. When all things are brought into submissin under Christ time will cease to exist and God will become all in all. (I Corinthians 15:28). That "all" includes every single human being, believer and unbelievers. There is no such thing as eternal torment or fire. Yes there will be torment for unbelievers in the age or ages to come, but those ages are finite and will end also.

The mistranslation of the word aionios was perpetrated by those in the Church who clung to the pagan concept of "Hell" and damnation to scare people into submission to the Church. God does nothing without good intention and a good result. The Lake of Fire has a purpose and God's purposes are always for our good.

If God is truly going to wipe away all our tears and there will be no sorrow or pain, then it is impossible that anyone will suffer or burn for "eternity". How could you not have at least some inkling of sorrow or pain, knowing that many are suffering for eternity?

If you claim you can be absent of sorrow or pain, knowing most of humanity is suffering eternally, then you are as Sadistic as the God you portray.
Again, you are shown definitive, clear Scripture that says the fire (and those suffering in it) is everlasting, yet you choose to deny it.

You simply do not believe the Word of God, and must perform lingual gymnastics to support your false, self-serving beliefs rendered by twisting God’s Word.

Are you even fluent in Biblical Hebrew (not possible, as today’s “Hebrew” is only a couple hundred years old & differs from Biblical Hebrew) or Koine Greek, Todd??

Can you have complete conversations in those languages, or write an original essay in them?

I speak, understand, read & write four different languages fluently (English, French, Spanish & Japanese). 2 of them (French & Japanese) are native tongues I have spoken since birth, as my father is a native of France, and my mother is a native of Japan.

English I learned beginning in Kindergarten (growing up in American public school system) and have used more than any other.

Spanish is one I learned beginning at age 9, when my parents divorced & my father got remarried to a woman from Mexico.

You know what I have learned from being multi-lingual? That no matter how different languages are from each other, they ALL still convey the exact same thoughts, feelings, attitudes, meaning, intelligence, data/information, knowledge & messages that can be accurately AND THOROUGHLY translated into any other language by someone who is 100% FLUENT in BOTH respective languages: the one it is being translated FROM....AND the one it is being translated INTO.

**FLUENCY is vital in translating languages accurately, and is something people who are fluent in only one language often overlook or do not comprehend the necessity & importance of. ....just because a person studies, say, German, in high school and/or college for several years & can roughly speak conversational German, that does NOT mean they are FLUENT in German, even though they are technically a German “scholar”.
Fluency is when you can fully & quickly speak, read, write & understand a language WITHOUT having to re-translate the words into a native language, or one you understand better.
And frankly, unless you speak/use the language frequently with others, you WILL eventually LOSE fluency in that language. This is simply fact.**

In other words, there isn’t a language that contains “more” information or different, more extensive ideas than another....it’s ultimately all the same data being exchanged/communicated.

My point is this:

You are NOT going to gain any “new” or “more accurate” information by reading—for example—the New Testament in Koine Greek than you would reading the same NT in English from the King James Holy Bible, which is a direct translation of the NT from Greek to English.

(I cannot say the same about modern Bible versions, because those are NOT merely translations, but completely different base manuscripts & therefore, different books entirely)

If you are a native or fluent English speaker, you will ALWAYS accurately understand MORE of the English translation of the NT/Textus Receptus (from the KJB) than you EVER will trying to learn the foreign Greek.....ESPECIALLY as you get older, because foreign languages just become more challenging to master as you get older.

People who are NOT 100% FLUENT in both English and Greek should NOT listen to people (like Todd or others) and especially not ANY unsaved people, who claim that the words are rendered more accurately in the “original” Greek, because they themselves are not fluent in Greek and are almost ALWAYS deceived or trying to deceive you.

I know several saved people who are from (or their parents are from) Greece & speak native Greek and English that say the KJB New Testament IS a perfect, wholly accurate translation of the original Greek Textus Receptus/NT.

It ALL comes down to TRUSTING the Word of God, and if you trust in Jesus Christ, Who literally IS the Word of God manifest in flesh, then you can trust that God (Who created all the different languages) preserved His Word in English just as inerrantly as He did in the Greek.

Just make sure it is the King James Holy Bible...the CORRECT and only true English translation.

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Daciple

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Lol Todd once again turns yet another Thread into his nonsense about everyone going to Heaven and no one going to Hell Eternally. Just not the same here unless you derail every single thread you enter into that...
 

Todd

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Lol Todd once again turns yet another Thread into his nonsense about everyone going to Heaven and no one going to Hell Eternally. Just not the same here unless you derail every single thread you enter into that...
Well at least it's different non-sense then the world is used to hearing from the church about a supposedly loving God who sadistically burns people eternally with no purpose to it.

Not sure how it is a derailment when the topic is salvation. Can't help it if my thoughts on the subject at hand cause others to ask questions about my beliefs. Wouldn't be much of a discussion board if everyone agreed on everything anyways, would it?
 
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