Christian Zionism Discussed

[Douglas Summers]

Not my intention at all. I am humbly and ignorantly asking what specific passages in Acts or the Epistles you believe justify the unfettered support of a secular political entity.

On the day of Pentecost in The Acts of the Apostles, The gift of the Holy Spirit had come upon the Jew Only! Everywhere that the disciples witnessed were only to the Jew. (Acts 1:1-9:43). The Disciples ask The Lord the question, "will you at this time, restore the Kingdom of Israel" (Acts 1:6). Notice, He does not rebuke them for the question, but tells them that that is up to the Fathers Power. (Act 1:7). When Paul was called by the Lord, He made him a minister to the Gentile.....But The Lord never told him to preach to the Gentile only....The command was always, "to the Jew first and the Gentile." If you will study the Scriptures, you will find that Paul, always went to the Synagogue First...then the Gentile. At this time....God is not saving the world, But is calling out a people of His own (Church) The one new man...His body, (A living organism..not an organization) (Eph. 2:14-18). Then, after that, He will build up again the House of David and the kingdom of Israel. (Acts 15:13-18). God has fulfilled His first promise of putting Israel back into their own land that was desolate and made it profitable. Read carefully Ezekiel Chapter 36. God does not do this because Israel was faithful, but for God's own Holy name (36:21-25). This does not mean God approves of what Israel does, for there will be a Judgement strictly for Israel alone....There are seven Judgments in Scripture, and Israel is just one of them. There is much more, but too long to write the whole Bible...ask your questions and I will answer them with Scripture.

 

[Todd]

This does not mean God approves of what Israel does, for there will be a Judgement strictly for Israel alone...

So if God does not approve of what the political entity known as Israel does why should I? If Israel is not acting according to God's standards why do you believe I should support Israel politically and financially? Does God need my vote and my financial support to bring about his will?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

So if God does not approve of what the political entity known as Israel does why should I? If Israel is not acting according to God's standards why do you believe I should support Israel politically and financially? Does God need my vote and my financial support to bring about his will?

You are talking about another issue here Todd..

You may have a child who does things that you dislike and behaves in a way contrary to your standards and wishes. Dissapproval is different from disowning. I don't "approve" of everything Israel does or beleives right now either.

 

[Todd]

You are talking about another issue here Todd..

You may have a child who does things that you dislike and behaves in a way contrary to your standards and wishes. Dissapproval is different from disowning. I don't "approve" of everything Israel does or beleives right now either.

That's fine, but I'm not sure why I should be expected to support the political entitiy of Israel with my votes or my finances. I certainly would not condone or finance my children's endeavors if I felt they were going about them in an unethical or immoral manner. Isn't that the crux of the issue for which side one is on when it comes to being or not being a Christian Zionist? How we vote(condone) and whether we financially support Israel?

 

[Serveto]

I haven't posted to this thread for a while as there appears to be the assumption that if you believe that God had anything to do with bringing the Jews back into Israel 70 years ago, that you now look uncritically at the modern state of Israel as some kind of perfection, or they were engaged with activities that God approved of and were rewarded by the chance to return to their homeland.

Leaving Christianity out of the equation for the moment, or at least on the side-lines, there is a new Zionist kid on the block: so called "White Zionism." I have been periodically watching the rise not only of the so called alt-lite and alt-right here in the States, but also the far right in Europe for awhile now, and some of them are using Israel as a model and are calling themselves, or their movement, "White Zionism." A story is just now developing of an apparently far-right, white nationalist American Coast Guard officer, Christopher Hasson, arrested with a cache of arms, reportedly preparing for the establishment of a nation of whites. Recall that Anders Breivik is pro-Israel, at least in a way, and some within especially the European far right are saying, in essence, yes, Israel for the Jews (i.e, a "Jewish State," as Netanyahu and others will have it) and Germany for the Teutons, France for the Franks, England for the Angles, Saxon and Jutes, etc., on down the line. Is that what we should do? Follow Israel's example and re-draw the world based on racist or at least ultra-nationalist lines?

This -needless to say controversial- logic, the equating of white nationalism with traditional Zionism, was expressed by "white nationalist" policy wonk, Richard Spencer, to the reportedly speechless (in response) Rabbi Matt Rosenberg at Texas A&M in December of 2016:

"The Rabbi asked Spencer: "My tradition teaches a message of radical inclusion and love. Will you sit town and learn Torah with me, and learn love?", Forward.com reported. But the alt-right leader [Spencer] instead took the opportunity to compare Zionism to white nationalism, and suggested Jewish people were unwilling to assimilate with different cultures. Spencer told Rosenberg: "Do you really want radical inclusion into the State of Israel?" Spencer said. "And by that I mean radical inclusion. Maybe all of the Middle East could go move in to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Would you really want that? "Jews exist precisely because you did not assimilate," Spencer continued, in comments Rosenberg said he viewed as bordering on anti-Semitic. "That is why Jews are a coherent people with a history and a culture and a future. It's because you had a sense of yourselves. I respect that about you. I want my people to have that same sense of themselves.""​

Source​

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Leaving Christianity out of the equation for the moment, or at least on the side-lines, there seems to be a new Zionist kid on the block: so called "white Zionism." I have been periodically watching the rise not only of the so called alt-lite and alt-right here in the States, but also the far right in Europe for awhile now, and some of them are using Israel as a model and are calling themselves, or their movement, "white Zionism." A story is just now developing of an apparently far-right, white nationalist American Coast Guard officer, Christopher Hasson, arrested with a cache of arms, reportedly preparing for the establishment of a nation of whites. Recall that Anders Breivik is pro-Israel, at least in a way, and some within especially the European far right are saying, in essence, yes, Israel for the Jews (i.e, a "Jewish State," as Netanyahu and others will have it) and Germany for the Teutons, France for the Franks, England for the Angles, Saxon and Jutes, etc., on down the line. Is that what we should do? Follow Israel's example and re-draw the world based on racist or at least ultra-nationalist lines?

This -needless to say controversial- logic, the equating of white nationalism with traditional Zionism, was expressed by "white nationalist" policy wonk, Richard Spencer, to the reportedly speechless (in response) Rabbi Matt Rosenberg at Texas A&M in December of 2016:

"The Rabbi asked Spencer: "My tradition teaches a message of radical inclusion and love. Will you sit town and learn Torah with me, and learn love?", Forward.com reported. But the alt-right leader [Spencer] instead took the opportunity to compare Zionism to white nationalism, and suggested Jewish people were unwilling to assimilate with different cultures. Spencer told Rosenberg: "Do you really want radical inclusion into the State of Israel?" Spencer said. "And by that I mean radical inclusion. Maybe all of the Middle East could go move in to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Would you really want that? "Jews exist precisely because you did not assimilate," Spencer continued, in comments Rosenberg said he viewed as bordering on anti-Semitic. "That is why Jews are a coherent people with a history and a culture and a future. It's because you had a sense of yourselves. I respect that about you. I want my people to have that same sense of themselves.""​

Source​

As far as I'm aware, the Bible is silent on the specific land claims and opaque on the future prophetic events pertaining to the "White Zionist" cause, though no doubt they would prefer it if it were not ;-)

 

[Douglas Summers]

So if God does not approve of what the political entity known as Israel does why should I? If Israel is not acting according to God's standards why do you believe I should support Israel politically and financially? Does God need my vote and my financial support to bring about his will?

I know why Todd, But you have other Ideas. I pray for Israel, just as I do for our corrupt Government. And the support I send to Israel, I do it through missionaries and evangelist.

 

[Serveto]

As far as I'm aware, the Bible is silent on the specific land claims and opaque on the future prophetic events pertaining to the "White Zionist" cause, though no doubt they would prefer it if it were not ;-)

As I read them, "White Zionists," for the most part, seem to be largely either post- or anti-Christian, considering Christianity a Semitic and therefore necessarily debased religion, foisted upon the hapless European tribes by the chicanery of the Roman Catholic priesthood. Those among them who are religious, tend to prefer their pre-Christian pagan epics, legends, oracles and ritual to the writings and prognostications of largely nationally obsessed and exclusivist Semitic prophets.

Still, with or without any outright Biblical statements on the fates, locations and national boundaries of the non-Jewish nations at end times, I think, soon enough, Christian Zionists especially of the Televangelical variety will find themselves in the rather awkward -at least seemingly inconsistent- position of having to explain why they tend to support militant ultra-nationalism in Israel, including the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but tend to both decry and suppress it when it is expressed by fascists in Great Britain, by American whites in Charlottesville, and by the Dutch Boers of South Africa. Perhaps, as you seem to here suggest, the simple answer is that unlike all other forms of racism or ultra-nationalism, the Bible places its imprimatur of approval only upon that of Jews.

 

[Todd]

I know why Todd, But you have other Ideas. I pray for Israel, just as I do for our corrupt Government. And the support I send to Israel, I do it through missionaries and evangelist.

I have no issue with praying for the Israel government the same as ours. I also have no problem supporting evangelists and missionaries in Israel that actually preach the gospel. If that is all you mean by being a Christian Zionist then I am fine with that. Problem is that most ministries and organizations labeled as Christian Zionist have an unfettered support of the Israel govenrment and lobby here in the United States. Most of them also support the Jews financially and help them return to Israel without ever preaching the gospel to them. I have issue with that. If the ministries and evangelists you support actually preach Jesus to the Jews, then we are in agreement.

 

[Karlysymon]

I just now watched this, what I will call an uncompromising, hard-hitting "minority" or "dissident" Christian report in which many topics are discussed. Unlike some other Christians, this guy, Rick Wiles, isn't reading "Breaking Israel News" for information, but is identifying it as essentially a propaganda organ, a link in a chain which connects what he repeatedly and indelicately calls "Kabbalist wizards" and "Jewish Voodooists" with and to what he considers duped American Christians helping to build the Third Temple and usher in the usually unnamed "messiah."

At the 27 min mark, Mr. Wiles refers to the cooperation, political, financial and spiritual, between and among such preeminent people as his former employer, Pat Robertson (CBN), Paula White, one of President Trump's Evangelical advisers, John Hagee (CUFI) and Kabbalistic/Talmudic Jewish rabbis as a "Satanic alliance," which, in this report, he tries to expose as such. Included in the report, although only in passing, are references to the continuing influence of John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield. Although, apart from this program, I know nothing or little about Mr. Wiles himself, I post it as proof, though none be needed, that not all conservative Christians are singing Hosannas to President Trump as the "new Cyrus," and neither are they hoping to be handed a newly minted temple coin with his image on its face.

I’d never heard of Jonathan Cahn until everyone was talking about his book on the Mystery of the Shemitah/Shemitah year like 3yrs? ago. Here he is on the Jim Bakker show.

I watched the hour-long episode last year, of which those 8mins are part. It was very interesting. I don’t really watch these guys (Bakker, of all people) because of what they have to say about the gospel. What interests me is their reading of politics into religion (scriptures, that is), or is it reading religion into politics? Hagee has a new book out, that does exactly that ^^^.

I can't remember which thread I found this video on but I think you posted it Karlysymon?

Yes, i did.here

 

[Dalit]

I’d never heard of Jonathan Cahn until everyone was talking about his book on the Mystery of the Shemitah/Shemitah year like 3yrs? ago. Here he is on the Jim Bakker show.

I watched the hour-long episode last year, of which those 8mins are part. It was very interesting. I don’t really watch these guys (Bakker, of all people) because of what they have to say about the gospel. What interests me is their reading of politics into religion (scriptures, that is), or is it reading religion into politics? Hagee has a new book out, that does exactly that ^^^.

Yes, i did.here

I don't agree with Jonathan Cahn even though I find him interesting. I saw a whole congregation that I attended sporadically get caught up in his The Harbinger and start prepping for the end times. They have a cannery and everything. It surprised me because the pastor seemed pretty Biblical. They even wouldn't let people get up and share a word or prophecy or tongues and interpretation without clearing it through a pastor first. It was the first place I ever saw tongues and interpretation happen and not just having a babble of tongues. Yet here comes Jonathan Cahn and his books.

I'm beginning to be extremely leery of fellow believers that want to follow the next big fad or author or new teaching. What's wrong with just sticking to the Bible? What's wrong with word studies? Why do we need this new big thing or the next popular craze? We don't. But we all can be really distractable little sheep sometimes.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I have no issue with praying for the Israel government the same as ours. I also have no problem supporting evangelists and missionaries in Israel that actually preach the gospel. If that is all you mean by being a Christian Zionist then I am fine with that. Problem is that most ministries and organizations labeled as Christian Zionist have an unfettered support of the Israel govenrment and lobby here in the United States. Most of them also support the Jews financially and help them return to Israel without ever preaching the gospel to them. I have issue with that. If the ministries and evangelists you support actually preach Jesus to the Jews, then we are in agreement.

I support the Christian Jew Foundation. They are messianic Jews. many have been disinherited by their families for following Jesus. They preach to Jews Here and in Israel.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Q - "If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvellous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"

~ Mark Twain

A ~ God's promise

 

[Douglas Summers]

Q - "If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvellous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"

~ Mark Twain

A ~ God's promise

The Jew never lost His identity, no matter where He was scattered to...….This is God's doing.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The Jew never lost His identity, no matter where He was scattered to...….This is God's doing.

Some Christians are busy celebrating all things Israel. Others don't believe they should be there at all. THIS is the message Christians should be giving to the Jews right now:-

 

[Douglas Summers]

Some Christians are busy celebrating all things Israel. Others don't believe they should be there at all. THIS is the message Christians should be giving to the Jews right now:-

PTL Red. If anyone has noticed, I have always preached, "You must be born again." Many say they have the Holy Spirit, but you can tell by their demeanor that they are trespassers (intruding self will into the sphere of divine authority). Those who get incensed when you tell them about the Holy Spirit are false teachers. Everything that Zev Porat said is true...It is not I, but Christ in me.

 

[Karlysymon]

Leaving Christianity out of the equation for the moment, or at least on the side-lines, there is a new Zionist kid on the block: so called "White Zionism." I have been periodically watching the rise not only of the so called alt-lite and alt-right here in the States, but also the far right in Europe for awhile now, and some of them are using Israel as a model and are calling themselves, or their movement, "White Zionism." A story is just now developing of an apparently far-right, white nationalist American Coast Guard officer, Christopher Hasson, arrested with a cache of arms, reportedly preparing for the establishment of a nation of whites. Recall that Anders Breivik is pro-Israel, at least in a way, and some within especially the European far right are saying, in essence, yes, Israel for the Jews (i.e, a "Jewish State," as Netanyahu and others will have it) and Germany for the Teutons, France for the Franks, England for the Angles, Saxon and Jutes, etc., on down the line. Is that what we should do? Follow Israel's example and re-draw the world based on racist or at least ultra-nationalist lines?

That is crazy! We can use Hansson's logic against himself by having the Native Americans send him packing.

This -needless to say controversial- logic, the equating of white nationalism with traditional Zionism, was expressed by "white nationalist" policy wonk, Richard Spencer, to the reportedly speechless (in response) Rabbi Matt Rosenberg at Texas A&M in December of 2016:

"The Rabbi asked Spencer: "My tradition teaches a message of radical inclusion and love. Will you sit town and learn Torah with me, and learn love?", Forward.com reported. But the alt-right leader [Spencer] instead took the opportunity to compare Zionism to white nationalism, and suggested Jewish people were unwilling to assimilate with different cultures. Spencer told Rosenberg: "Do you really want radical inclusion into the State of Israel?" Spencer said. "And by that I mean radical inclusion. Maybe all of the Middle East could go move in to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Would you really want that? "Jews exist precisely because you did not assimilate," Spencer continued, in comments Rosenberg said he viewed as bordering on anti-Semitic. "That is why Jews are a coherent people with a history and a culture and a future. It's because you had a sense of yourselves. I respect that about you. I want my people to have that same sense of themselves.""​

Source​

Interesting...

"The repeated occurrence of Jews posing as neo-Nazis should not be taken as haphazard. Their persistence would suggest they are not acting alone. We must reasonably assume that they are in the service of some agency, perhaps the Mossad, for the purpose of maintaining the impression of an enduring anti-Semitic threat, to justify the US government’s continued support for Israel. The media attention garnered by these misfits is typically disproportionally higher than their place in the white supremacist community itself. Their antics are obviously staged and absurdly exaggerated spoofs of neo-Nazism."
Source
And i couldn't help but think of ^ that when @Renegade posted THIS

 

[TokiEl]

O Gog when will you and your friends attack Israel... and be buried there ?

 

[UnderAlienControl]

 

[Serveto]

View attachment 19712

Interesting, informative article. Thank you for providing it. From it, and further:

"Benzi Gopstein, the outspoken head of Lehava - which has drawn notoriety for its violent assaults on Jewish-Arab assimilation - made the remarks at a panel discussion for Jewish yeshiva students when asked by a fellow panelist if he believed burning down churches in Israel was justified. He later tried to evade accusations of inciting his followers to fire-raise, saying it was the government's responsibility to carry out what he presented as a religious teaching of the 12th century Jewish philosopher, Maimonides. “Did the Rambam [Maimonides] rule to destroy [idol worship] or not? Idol worship must be destroyed. It’s simply yes – what’s the question?” Mr Gopstein told the panel."
The Telegraph​

The operative deception (not in the article) seems so thick as to be practically impenetrable. Even though, as the overall article makes clear, Israeli secular authorities are suppressing what they rightly call "Jewish terrorist" vigilante groups, remembering, no doubt, the assassination of Yitzak Rabin by ultranationalist Yigal Amir, the little-known fact, certainly, and, for political purposes, conveniently, never broadcast by Zionist Televangelicals, to say nothing of WND, Fox and Sky News, is that, within Orthodox Judaism, parties of which constitute Netanyahu's government, it seems there is a direct connection, a correlation between their unnamed and as yet unidentified "messiah" being strong enough to not only conquer and hold the West Bank territories but to also ultimately purge their holy land of Christian churches. To me, it is more than ironic that most Christians who unequivocally support the Israeli reconquista of the West Bank, in the form of what the USA has until recently considered "illegal" settlements, seem altogether unaware that the next step in the process is to watch as what remains of the church-attending Christians of Jerusalem are left with no churches to attend.

That which follows is subtle, requiring readers to think, but is further to the aims and aspirations of Benzi Gopstein and fellows. It was written by the oft-times reviled, especially by Jewish religious, late Israel Shahak, whom I think was a humanist and who, by reading an otherwise largely obscure article and translating from the Hebrew, did English speaking Christians and readers in general a service, a favor. I added the pictures for effect.

Benjamin Netanyahu with Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef (Shas Party)


"... Rabbi Yosef [spiritual authority of the Shas Party in Israel] argued in a September 18, 1989 article in Yated Ne'eman that since Israel is too weak to demolish all Christian churches in the Holy Land it is also too weak to retain all the conquered territories."
Source (Israel Shahak)

Benjamin Netanyahu with John Hagee (CUFI)

​